Re: New 1100R Optibike

[Jim_Kirk]

OK, now we have a thread on this.

Q: Is the 1100R available as an upgrade for current 850R owners?  Or, must it come only as a new bike? 
Q: So, there is no boost mode in the 1100R?  You turn the throttle and you, the rider, control the power from 0W to 1100W?
Q: Elaborate on what it means to say "Cool Carbon."

Can you provide these specs (modified from a previous Paul G post):

1. Speed without assist.
2. Weight of bike
   
3. The 48V is a new battery.  What is the capacity: WH? AH?
4. Is optional instrumentation==>Cycle Analyst,== going to be available?
   
5. Price
6. Is Motor Noise same as existing bike with metal gears?

-Jim

[Paul_G]

the 36 volt battery's are now 26 AH's?.....or was that 29 AH?

So the same size in 48 volts would hold 19.5 AH (Amp Hours) unless they found a way to pack in more cells.

It makes people think it holds less.

Optibike please rate your battery's in watt hours so we can compare any two battery's EZ.

Paul G

[Jim_Kirk]

Paul,
  I upgraded my 850R Opti to 26AH [biggest battery Opti sell when I did the upgrade in Dec 2010] and it just fit in the interior volume of the bike.  There just isn't any more interior room in the 850R, even with the new thin metal case the 26AH battery is provided with.

  I also wonder if the new 1100R 48V option for $1,195 uses the same motor as my 850R?  ==>Probably so, just running at a higher voltage but Craig will you tell us if this it correct?

  No idea what the WH or AH capacity of the new 48V battery is but the interior volume of the 850R is maxed out now which is why I asked if the 1100R option is only available on a new bike [made with more interior volume?].

-Jim

[Paul_G]

Prolly the same battery just wired for 48 volts.

Watt Hours are Volts X Amps.

36 volts X 26 AH = 936 WH's

so if its the same capacity..... 936 WH's / 48 volts = 19.5 AH 

That is why battery capacity should be listed in WH's IMO as 19.5 sounds smaller but its the same.

Paul G

[Jim_Kirk]

Paul,

As I understand battery technology the 26AH battery is a number of individual cells wired in series to generate 36V (nominal) and these cells are packaged to use all the available volume of the Opti interior space.  Those cells can't be rewired to generate a terminal voltage of 48V.

New smaller size cells would be needed so that the number of those smaller size cells, when wired in series, could produce 48V (nominal).  So the new 48 V battery is a new collection of cells.

-Jim

[lowco2]

We can talk numbers and data and engineering all day (and I'm happy to
do so) but at the end of the day, it's real world performance that
counts, it's winning races. That's why we race. The incredible
performance of Team Optibike yesterday can make you think that Pike's
isn't really all that challenging. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE
TRUTH. This was not a straight-line drag race on perfect asphalt, or a
100 yard sprint. It was a long, steep, challenging road, with rough
sections, dirt sections, gravel on the road, extremely tight
switchbacks and a stiff wind at the begining. Mix all that together
and you need more than watt-hours, you need a bike that can corner
tight, feel confident on dirt and rock all the way to the top. Then it
has to feel solid on the descent so you can hit 54 mph. Disclaimer:
that last sentence is not legal for law enforcement purposes. That's
way more than battery performance, that's a complete package and these
new bikes have it all. Yesterday's results speak volumes.
John

[Paul_G]

Battery's are wired in series as well as parallel. So they may have 40 3.6 volt cells wired into 4 packs of ten. 10 3.6's = 36 volts then you wire the 4 10 packs in parallel or how ever large of a battery you choose. So if you want a higher voltage its just a wiring change.

Paul G

[USV]

"Then it has to feel solid on the descent so you can hit 54 mph.
Disclaimer:
that last sentence is not legal for law enforcement purposes."

absolute truth...that's where the Opti excels...up steep hills & on
extreme downhills ...62+ mph is possible in a tuck on a long steep
grade = 0

> > -Jim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Craig]

I could not agree with John more- it takes alot more than specs to win
races- it takes a complete bike designed from the ground up to perform
in all conditions.

The 48v battery system is as follows:

Internal: 875wh
Touring Battery: 749wh

I rode up Pikes Peak with a 52t front chainring, and never had to drop
below gear 10 while in fast mode. The top speed on flat ground is
approx 35 mph.

The pricing looks like this:

R-Series Base Model: $9995 (base model is the current 850xli)
Rohloff Hub: + $1995
48v 1100w upgrade: +$1199
48v Touring Battery: +$2399 (used in Pikes Peak

The gearbox is the same, so you can expect it to sound the same as the
newest version MBB.

The Cool Carbon system ensures the battery will never overheat- none
of the 7 bikes used on Pikes Peak had battery or motor overheat alerts
at any time on the 8000ft climb. This system makes sure the cells in
the pack (even the ones in the middle) cool evenly, so the cycle life,
performance, and durability of the pack are top notch. Essentially,
the cells are housed in a patented material that allows for even
cooling of the cells- really rad stuff- and you saw it here first.

Craig Taber
Optibike

[Bike_On]

A Couple Quick Comments and Analysis:

Thank you, thank you, thank you Opti team...The power and voltage
increase is an appreciated response to customer calls for the past two
years and puts Opti back in the mix with the "high-power" category of
ebikes: Now the bike is equal in power with E+, Espirit, Grace, M55,
etc. Stealth, at 2.5KW+ is in another category, IMO.

Is the touring battery also 48V? Are these batts 13 cells x 3.7V =
48.1V operation?

Can the bike still run off a 36V battery input?

I don't want to get muddled in the details right now. It's nice to
bask in the thought of this option, enjoy the Pike crushing, and see
the specs.

Dan

[Paul_G]

Can you plug in an external 48V battery into an older 36V Optibike?

Paul G

[Ken Cline]

Nope.

I'm looking at a new battery for my three year old 800Li and confirmed that the new system (i.e. more than just a different battery) will only be available on new bikes. Trade-ins are gladly accepted, though ;-)

[Craig]

I am glad you like it Dan! However.....

"...puts Opti back in the mix with the "high-power" category of

ebikes: Now the bike is equal in power with E+, Espirit, Grace, M55,
etc. Stealth, at 2.5KW+ is in another category, IMO."

On this point, I disagree. Power is not everything. There is NO WAY
a Stealth or another hub motor bike could have made it up Pikes Peak,
or they would have shown up to prove it. They had plenty of time to
prepare- so I disagree with the Optibike being put in the "high
power" or any other category with the bikes you mentioned, because as
John said- specs are one thing, real world performance proven through
racing is another.

The 48v bikes will not run at 36v.

Craig Taber
Optibike

[Bike_On]

Craig,

I do agree with you. It's the total package. Opti has ALWAYS had the
total package. The problem was that the "high power category bikes" (E
+ ,etc,) out accelerated and maintained a higher top speed/average
speed on the pavement rides. Now it will equal if not surpass them.
Also, with the best power/weight ratio, handling, lifting, feel,
balance is not compromised. The other brands sacrifice something in
order to deliver the power.

I have been riding an Optibike for 4 years and know the paces and
limits at high speed pavement riding. The 48V and 1100W will step it
up a magnitude of thrill.
I have recently tested and run an aftermarket battery at 42-43V. The
thrill of boostmode, at 1200-1400W, 30A up hills was a small fortaste
of this new bike. But I was riding with 16lbs on the rear rack and a
weak, 36V unused battery weight in the frame. Imagining the 875 whr
down low, nothing on the rear, and 1100W continuous...
nothing like it.

Again, great job, congrats on the win...we all look forwad to hearing
more about 1100R (New motor? wiring? circuitcards, etc)

Dan

PS: Secondary analysis: The 850 series drew (850/37= 23amps ) max.
WIth age and discharge, this power number decreased, and so did
performance. I suspect the 1100R/48V = 23A was not a conincidence,
but more of a physics factor with lithium and wire harnesses, and a
desire to keep steady state current below 25A. Comments? Is the
1100R allowed to boost above 30A on accelerations and be 23A steady?

> > > Optibike- Hide quoted text -

[Jim_Kirk]

So, to summarize what is known about the 1100R:

1. It is a new bike and we cannot retrofit the 48V system to our existing 36V Opti.
2. It has an internal 48V battery which has 875Wh.
3. The top speed on flat ground is 35mph with a 52T front chainring and 16T [?, please clarify] rear sprocket.  Is this with light pedal assist?  Which Rohloff gear [14?] and what cadence?
   
4. The R version will cost $9,995 + $1,995 +$1,199=$13,189
5. Sound level is the same as with the existing metal gear Opti motor.
6. Purchase will require an offroad waiver to be signed
   

Still looking for this information:

1. What is the weight for the $13,189 configuration.
2. Is a Cycle Analyst installed by Opti and delivered with the bike available?

-Jim

[Craig]

The weight is the same =/- 1lb as a similarly equipped 850R, about 60
lbs.

The bike will not have the cycle analyst installed, because looking at
numbers at this speed is the fast track to the Emergency Room.

Craig

On Aug 29, 5:29 pm, Jim_Kirk <j...@jakirk.com> wrote:
> So, to summarize what is known about the 1100R:
>

>    1. It is a new bike and we cannot retrofit the 48V system to our existing
>    36V Opti.
>    2. It has an internal 48V battery which has 875Wh.
>    3. The top speed on flat ground is 35mph with a 52T front chainring and
>    16T* [?, please clarify]* rear sprocket.  *Is this with light pedal
>    assist?*  *Which Rohloff gear [14?] and what cadence?*
>    4. The R version will cost $9,995 + $1,995 +$1,199=$13,189
>    5. Sound level is the same as with the existing metal gear Opti motor.
>    6. Purchase will require an offroad waiver to be signed

>
> Still looking for this information:
>

>    1. *What is the weight for the $13,189 configuration.*
>    2. *Is a Cycle Analyst installed by Opti and delivered with the bike
>    available?*
>
> -Jim

[Ken Cline]

On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Craig wrote:

> The bike will not have the cycle analyst installed, because looking at
> numbers at this speed is the fast track to the Emergency Room.

The truth is that the cycle analyst will not be installed because the decision makers at Optibike have determined that most customers don't care so the few of use who are clamoring for more information can be ignored. I think they even believe themselves when they say they listen to customers. Well listen to this, guys: Posting disingenuous excuses to customers making legitimate requests is offensive. If you are not going to support technically curious customers by installing a CycleAnalysts, that's your choice, but don't lie to us with ridiculous excuses about the danger of installing cycle computers when every bike you make includes one as standard equipment.

You can do better, Craig.

[lowco2]

Ken,
Chill out. Have a glass of wine, something.
If you didn't see that was clearly a joke, please recalibrate and
reread.
In about 20 min or so I'll have video up of helmet cam of the ride
experience. Yea, it's that fast. You'll see the joke is only slight.
--John

[Nimbuzz]

As for the CA I'd say if only Opti would run a wire shunt up to the
dash so one could plug in their own CA--that would be nice & suffice--
doncha think? But then again every little thing adds some cost and
when Opti offered the link for info very few used it so most of their
customers may not desire it. How much would it take to put the shunt
wire up there? And a plugged hole to run a wire in?

My led lights suffice for now--I do have a new unused CA. Joke or not
the CA has a small screen and messing to see it is a distraction while
going fast--but so are girls--especially in swimwear or short shorts!
What to do?!? Ain't life tough?

[Nicholas Turner]

Just keep in mind that you guys on this forum are the few who know enough about ebikes for the CA info to be useful to you.  The rest of our customers don't have a need for the extra info

From what I've seen on the CA website, its incredibly easy to install, just requires a bit of time and some poking around

[lowco2]

True enough, Al.
I guess the final decision is up to Optibike, but if that thing can
pull Pike's Peak at 22 mph average speed, what more do you need to
know?
Helmet cam teaser reel is crunching. Will be another 30 min or so.
I'll post link when done.
--John

[Ken Cline]

On Aug 29, 2011, at 9:57 PM, Nicholas Turner wrote:

> From what I've seen on the CA website, its incredibly easy to install, just requires a bit of time and some poking around

Is installing a CA covered by my warranty? Didn't think so :-(

[Ken Cline]

Sorry about that I didn't mean to be as harsh as I ended up. There is a humorous element to what Craig wrote, but there is also a disregard, even disrespect, for those us with technical curiosity.

I can understand that there is not enough demand for a better display to be worth spending Opti's limited resources in supporting a new console, or even CA option. However I don't believe for a moment the party line (which I first heard from Jim, and now from Nicholas) that only the four or five of us technically oriented active group participants would appreciate a better, more informative console. Craig claims that we are listened to, but it sure doesn't feel that way when the response from Jim and Nicholas is, essentially, that we are wrong.

[Nicholas Turner]

I am not sure how I made you wrong, it wasn't my intention..  We did offer a PDA with gps that showed all the bikes technical info for awhile a few years ago, and very little interest was shown in it.

[remf]

Nicholas why not offer the CA as a factory option? I can see many advantages like current limit & accurate range prediction. It's standard on the Grace, Stealths and others.

[Nimbuzz]

It is kinda a pian to pull everything out = motor & pack to get to a
hook up point--that's why if a wire is run up to the dash it's simple
to connect a CA there.

Ken--didn't seem to call you "wrong" He said the few here can
understand the CA info but most other customers just ride and don't
care about no dang amperes and voltages.

On Aug 29, 11:32 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nicholas why not offer the CA as a factory option? I can see many advantages like current limit & accurate range prediction. It's standard on the Grace, Stealths and others.
>

[Covert Rider10]

Not even having the option to easily install yourself seems odd.

[remf]

That would be almost as good. Though I think that would be read-only. For current & speed limits, the CA would need Read/Write access. Something only Opti could provide if I am not mistaken?

On 30/08/2011, at 4:46 PM, Nimbuzz <mar...@aol.com> wrote:

[cakey]

For me everything is awesome apart from the MBB . Not sure what the
new mbb noise is like , I assume loud with 1100 w through it.
This could so be my next bike if only

On Aug 30, 7:56 am, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That would be almost as good. Though I think that would be read-only. For current & speed limits, the CA would need Read/Write access. Something only Opti could provide if I am not mistaken?
>

[cakey]

On listening to John`s summit vid . My MBB sounds seriously loud
hmmmm

[Randi Sparkler]

I am not a tech geek & I dont recall having ever voiced my opinion on
the need for a CA but I will now: I certainly find it dissapointing
that these are not on the horizon for the Optibike.

The coloured leds are wonderfully simple but are simply not enough.
Similariities to Ferarri are bandied about in marketing but how long
has it been since Ferarri supplied nothing but dipstick to measure
fuel? (probably never, the Model T Ford on the other hand...).
Preformance monitoring goes with the territory.

The beauty of this bike over all the others (as reinforced on Sunday
at Pikes Peak) is its ability to efficiently combine man and
electrical power as one synergistic unit. Optibikes limitation, like
all others is the recharge time. I want to know I am getting the best
out of the machine to ensure I delay that inevitable need to recharge
for as long as appropriate for the given conditions I am riding at the
time. It would seem to me that this is echoed by the likes of your
Number One PR man, LowCO2, in his comment about how he misjudged
getting the best out of the 1100R on PP.

I ditched the factory supplied computer as soon as it died (just out
of warranty) and replaced it with a Garmin 500. Having ridden with
cadence, heart rate, terrain and speed monitored over time I now have
a really good understanding of my capabilities but its still guess
work for the bike. Thats frustrating.
And now that the bike has started to drop to safe mode as soon as LEDs
hits solid orange I would like to have easy acess to some diagnostic
tools...

Come on guys you say there is limited interest but I doubt that. There
has been critisim of the headlight unit since the early days. Here is
your chance to create another exciting new element without having to
redesign the whole bike.

RS

On Aug 30, 2:56 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That would be almost as good. Though I think that would be read-only. For current & speed limits, the CA would need Read/Write access. Something only Opti could provide if I am not mistaken?
>

[Paul_G]

I'll prolly get flak for this but there is a very good reason Optibike will not install them.

First off you don't have a need to look at the CA while riding as it remembers all....

Now the reason Optibike won't install a CA and if that was my operation I would do the same for as long as I could get away with it.

Battery warranty costs.....Battery warranty costs.....Battery warranty costs....shipping is also costly.

I had to fight for weeks to get my internal replaced as I had no way to prove a 25 mile range on low power was NOT ok. So I bought an external from Optibike and HEY....it ran 60 miles on low! Then a new internal was sent out.

With a CA you know how much "gas is in the tank" and should I send my battery back for a new one two years later.

Its a good business choice now but as battery improve it can be safely added.

Paul G

 

[Jim_Kirk]

OK, I'll move this along in a positive light.  And I thank Ken for his comments which I agree with.

Opti, just consider offering the CA as a factory installed option. This approach is consistent with the current Model 1100 pricing structure where R and 1100W are both priced separately above the base bike price. 

Now, a solution.

Put the display on top of the headlight using a nice carbon bar like I've already installed for my Lupine light.  Install the bar using these pictures and mount the CA on the bar.

1. http://www.jakirk.com/850XLi_1/add_ons/content/_0213959560_large.html
2. http://www.jakirk.com/850XLi_1/Opti850XLiAddons/Opti_18.html
3. http://www.jakirk.com/850XLi_1/Headlight/

The best solution is to run the CA wires into the headlight and provide a plug for the CA within the headlight.  These wires and plug should be included in every future Opti and if the owner wants the CA option installed its easy for the factory to do.  If the owner wants to add it latter he buy's the factory mounting kit and CA from Opti and installs it himself.  With a bike as expensive as the Opti putting this plug in for every bike is the way to go.

-Jim

[lowco2]

Cakey,
I don't think the mob is any louder (or softer) than my 800. On the
video all I can hear is wind noise and me hollering with joy!
John

[lowco2]

Randi,
I will try and explain a few things about riding any Optibike even as
I'm dreading getting on my 800 this morning for my commute because
it's going to feel so SLOW.
What the CA (or any other similar tool) won't tell you about an
Optibike is how well you and the bike are doing together. Remember,
I'm the data guy, professor, Ph.D. chemist, etc. I love data. This
bike works better with a human than it does alone, but you have to
match the bike's cadence and optimum (hmm, there's that word) working
point. One of the great things about the Rohloff is that you can do
that easily. Essentially I decide how much input I want to give (how
many watts I'm giving) and then try and find the point that give the
max speed. If you shift up and keep your legs the same and if the
speed goes up, your doing the best. IF (biiiiig IF) what you want is
the greatest speed as I did on Sunday. Sometimes I want more of a
workout in which case I increase my cadence to be higher than the
motor's best point and I get a better workout than my battery does.
You won't find that (IMHO) with a CA or Optilink (which I have); you
have to FEEL it.
That being said, and since I use my bike as a training tool (and
Sunday is proof I can train too) I love my Garmin 410 where I can also
get HR, cadence and speed recorded and displayed. I used that on
Pikes. Like you, I no longer have my factory computer, just the
Garmin. But I must say the new computers they have on these bikes are
really nice and I used mine going up Pike's. Mostly to kick myself in
the butt to ride harder when the speed dropped. However, there were
many times I did not look at anything but the road and I was on a
closed road with an escort who was looking out for me.
Hope that clarifies more than it confuses, will write more later.
Have to get commuting soon. Commuting on my SLOW 800.... Dang. I
really want one of these new ones.
--John

[lowco2]

Just rode in to work. Ave speed was 25.6 on mostly downhill. Dang I
did 22 going up 8,000' Sunday. Someone, please save me from this SLOW
bike!
--John

[Bike_On]

The CA question:

1. Easier Option: Opti could add an ANT+ chip in the display CCA
rather than blue tooth. Then one coul dbuy an after marker, GArmin
500 or Ibike computer and get ALL the relative info : HR, speed,
cadence, calories, and POWER. Opti could allow selection of multicast
and send over watts, current and voltage and the GArmin could possibly
work, don't know for sure, but it does read inst Power with ANT+ link
(wireless). However, no WHrs/Ahrs, which reflects used energy and
tells u what is left in the tank. I am sure Opti could send it, but
can Garmin read it?

2. CA install: Not for the faint of heart...you need electrical wiring
experience to do a good job with the soldering and wire crimping. You
HAVE to drill a small hole in the frame, but it is not bad. The
difficult part is adding Molex connectors and locating the current
sense. I placed mine at the output of the Relay CCA, so I could
measure battery performance from either stock or aux battery inputs.
The battery well has more room, but then just one source.

My 2C
Dan

> > > > >>> I am not sure how I made you wrong, it wasn't my intention..  We did offer a PDA with gps that showed all the bikes technical info for awhile a few years ago, and very little interest was shown in it.- Hide quoted text -

[lowco2]

Dan,
If I recall the license fees to use ANT+ are stupidly high. Or maybe
I'm remembering that wrong, but that does stick in my head. ANT+ has
limited data fields, but Opti could probably use some power or other
field for current and voltage, not sure about temps (output has both
motor and internal battery temps). I do think for the geekly minded
(guilty) there is a market for more data, but Opti has only so many
resource and time and they have to make decisions as to where to
invest.
--John

[Bike_On]

John,

About the FEEL. For the user, that is what it is about, yes? Some
folks are happy with a 250W pedelec that essentially doubles their
moderate efforts of 125W, casual, bike path outputs on flat terrain.
If you have hills, you bog down unless one happens to ride a Panasonic
mid drive system (Opti-super light)

As light as the Opti is for it's power, if one tries to pedal the 60lb
bike at 35mph, you WILL feel your legs. I have modelled and
experienced these speeds with several calc programs and you need about
800W to maintain 30 mph on flats, whether bike or man. So the ratio
of Bike power/human power is increasing. The higher it is, the more
thrilling the FEEL as the bike propells and our efforts have less
impact.

My point? I think Jim and Co needed a 1100W model and hats off to
them. The 1100W puts them near the WALL of air resistance, being that
more power and weight is needed to get a few more MPH. A fairling
would be a better option at this point.

You think your bike is slow? For a bike that is rarely discharged
past half capacity and kept at room temp year around, I'll take it
off your hands..:).

My 2+ year old battery is now averaging 450W for 10 miles and then
hitting SAFE mode. Battery voltage under load is 35V or less after 8
miles. It's slow. Upping the voltage does add back the FEEL.

Good rides and keep the reports flowing while fresh.

Dan

[Craig]

We offered a blue tooth link to a PDA a few years back with full
battery display info and more, and guess what- it was our least
popular option.

As far as Optibike not listening, what a bunch of BS, Ken. So yes, I
am calling you wrong. Dead wrong.

We listen and respond faster than any other electric bike company out
there. Of course, most other E-bike companies listen to you too- so
thats why we are the most copied brand of electric bikes. Pretty sad
really.

Just because we don't respond with "how high?" every time you say
"jump!" doesn't mean we do not listen.

Just my $0.02.

Craig Taber
Optibike

[BoboboB]

I AGREE WITH CRAIG. Opti just accomplishes a super human
technological feat and you'all are whining about a gauge.

Go ahead, go get a stealth and get your gauge and most of us will keep
riding our Opti's. I have used the Optilink on several occasions to
check how my bike is doing, but that's all I need to do.

I do about 4000 miles per year on my 2008 800Li and my battery is
still at least at 80% and I routinely get 35 miles plus with no
problem. When I want to get more exercise, I ride my 2006 600Nimh, or
run on low power. That's all I care to know.

I have some small idea about how much work went into getting the 1100
48v package together and the new battery and cooling and think that
more cudos go to Jim and Craig and the team, and if they get a spare
minute or two, which they don't often have, maybe they will get around
to a CA interface. BUT hell's bells give em a break.

BobO

[lowco2]

Dan,
Yes, I'm spoiled by how I can keep my bike. Just had the battery
tested by Opti and I'm at 18.6 AH after almost 3 years.... Good cells,
fewer miles than you and, yes, not overdischarging. I don't think that
battery has seen safe mode ever.
I'm fascinated by the fact that you did some modeling of Opti's speed
and see a wall near this power level. I'm assuming you did these calcs
at sea level (+/-). What happens if you re-do it for 13,000' or
something like 61 or 62 kPa? I thought it was easier to hit the high
30's up there than it was at Boulder (5,500' or 83 kPa). I know
there's an air resistance difference, the question is that enough to
make the same power give me 38 mph rather than 34?
Cheers,
--John

[Bike_On]

John,

My modelling is from the various bike calculators out there on the
web. Soe do abetter job at air resistance cros sections and air
pressure than others.

Your expereience is pretty much correct. You will get a bump from
altitude. I have seen a bump in temperature as well. The warmer the
air, the less dense and faster.

Above 22mph, it's all about the air resistance, IMO. A fit biker
getting 800W assist and down on the bars will keep pace with an
upright joe at 1200W going 34mph, given enough gearing.

I was amazed that you were able to draft in ECO. The 48V option
likely gave you 400-500W, but you were matching 1100W and Jim's
output! It's about the air and/or your amazing conditioning.

To All: I suggest and agree we lay off the squabbling over the
display stuff. These guys pay the bills, did the work, take the
risks, demonstrated the goods and deserve a healthy amount of respect
for indeed listening and bringing this new OEM offering to market.
This is the bike I dreamed about and hoped for back in 2008. It took
3 years to develop it. Hats off.

Silver Bullet: in closing, the silver bullet that will set this bike
apart is the weight. 60lb stock at 1100W and all the goodies. I
carry my opti on a rear, 2 bar car rack during my short commutes.
That is risky at weight approaches 75+ lbs. Excpet for the E+ at
75lbs and only 10ahr, all the other muscle bikes are way up there.

Can't wait to see the video at home...Dan

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[lowco2]

Well said, Dan.
Watch the video in HD, I loaded up the HD version. Turn the speakers
down until I stop, it's mostly wind noise.
I agree, especially having ridden this new bike. This is an amazing
machine, not only the power, but the handling and, as you say, the
weight is amazing. Drop that rear rack battery and you still have an
amazingly capable machine that's 13 lb lighter than what I ran up
Pike's. I ran full throttle up steep hills for probably close to 40
min and never overheated anything. What ever they are doing, it
works.
--John

[deerfencer]

My .02 as a long-time CA owner and advocate riding with it on my
Tidalforce S750X:

It's simply a great diagnostic and forecasting tool for battery
performance, individual ride range and pack cycle recording. Get
familiar with it and you can usually predict your ride range down to
the mile before you approach overdischarge--and adjust your pedal
effort/power-assist accordingly. Blinking lights can perhaps
approximate it but without the precision of knowing exactly how many
watthours you've eaten to date--and how many you normally get out of a
long ride. It's also very cool to see how the controller doles out the
power climbing hills under full power demand, and how much juice can
be saved by throttle-feathering over flats and rollers.

As for diagnostics, the CA makes it very easy to track whether--and
exactly how much--a pack is starting to fade over time. You can also
literally watch the cells doing battle with each other as they
approach the low voltage cutoff point and the pack starts to go out of
balance on individual longer rides, which makes a real impression on
the alert rider to try to stay in the sweet zone voltage-wise. (I
realize the Opti BMC automatically prevents serious overdischarge but
I much prefer watching the whole cycle from start to end on each
ride.) And if I see intermittent display blackouts while riding I've
found it's a fairly solid bet that there's a connector issue or loose
wire somewhere that needs attending to ASAP.

Finally, the amount I've learned as a curious spectator watching the
numbers on the CA over the past five years is incalculable, and has
made me a much smarter and more efficient e-assist rider. (And no
crashes to date, Craig, even over 13,000 fairly fast miles with
1100-1400W max assist.) In the same way Reno John relies on his Garmin
to help judge his personal power input, I rely on the CA to monitor
pack and motor performance. Example: The Tidalforce system will
automatically cut back motor power demand as the motor heats up under
heavy demand, and I can instantly monitor exactly when and to what
degree that happens on my more punishing rides--and plan future ride
routes/directions around that info.

Seems to me a bike as slick and sophisticated as an Opti ought to at
least offer the CA (or something very similar) as an option to enable
more tech savvy owners to have their CAke and eat it too.

LH

> ...
>
> read more »

[ElectricDirt]

I am so in touch with my bike that I barely need the LEDs. "We don't
need no stinking badges.' Of course when a person rides like I do, you
become 1 with the machine. Just some humor!!! Oh yea, keep those
batteries balanced.

> ...
>
> read more »

[lowco2]

Love it. "We don't need no stinkin' Cycle Analyst!"
Besides, I can always pedal home. Said by the guy who rarely gets his
batt below 50% SOC.... consider the source...
But I still love it.
--John

> ...
>
> read more »

[remf]

Maybe not for you guys, fair enough...but it would be nice to have the option especially on a very pricey bike like this. It's inevitable that Opti will offer something like the CA but it'll probably be integrated into the console. Then again my crystal ball is not always that accurate :)

[David GMail Email]

Time for another opinion on the CA from the west coast...

"With high prices, come high expectations."

(...and, you can quote me on that one...).

I saw on this Optibike Owners Groip forum someone express that "the CA is like an Atari console relative to it cool factor." Well, the three flashing "idiot lights" are even lower technology and "uncool" considering how "unuseful" they are. I sound like I grew up in the 1970's drinking the UnCola...

As a long-time keelboat sailor that enjoys "eeking" power from the 12 volt house battery system on long cruises in the PNW in my power hungry sailboat, I understand the value of an accurate A-hr energy meter. Grin Technologies, the company that makes the CA is a cool company with an entrepreneurial spirit of a successful start up. I love the idea of supporting them by purchasing their useful product that looks like an uncool "Atari console."

I am installing a Stand Alone CA similar to what Bike On did only with OEM plugs into the Optibike relay board. I am routing the shunt sense wire through the frame opening where the Rohloff shifter cable and rear brake hydraulic line routes. I plan on mounting the CA display unit on the headlight housing similar to how Jim Kirk mounted his aftermarket headlight to provide the best OEM looking installation that my garage can produce! Thanks all on this forum for the ideas.

I am looking forward to be able to closely monitor battery usage to improve energy efficiency and to have a better understanding of the remaining life of some very expensive internal AND external Optibike batteries.

At least when finished, my inexpensive CA installation will help my expensive Optibike meet my very high expectations.

I love the Optibike in every way except for those three stupid little "idiot lights."

- Idiot lights are so 1960's...
- LCD displays are so 1990's...
- Bluetooth and "an App for that" is so now...

Until now is here, I will be using my new CA.

I'll let you know how the CA installation goes by posting pictures if others are interested.

Dave

David B. Swanson, P.E., S.E.
Principal, LEED AP
Reid Middleton, Inc.
(425) 741-3800 office
(425) 508-7971 mobile
www.reidmiddleton.com

[remf]

Dave, great post. I totally agree with all that you opined. Very cool indeed and I think a very large majority here would agree. I really look forward to the the details. Hats off to you, Bike-on and cakey for leading the way. Power to the people :)

[J]

About 4 hours into the Cycle Analyst installation...

[lowco2]

"- Idiot lights are so 1960's...
- LCD displays are so 1990's...
- Bluetooth and "an App for that" is so now... "

True enough... to a point. Mercedes still uses "idiot lights" on their
dashboard display.
Before you could buy an iPhone, Optibike was selling the bluetooth and
App (then running on a HP PDA, which is what we called smart phones
then). It was horribly unpopular, despite being likely well ahead of
it's time. I recognized the value of this and bought one, which I
still use today, having moved it from my original 600 to my 800Li.
"let the market decide"

Ever seen the display in a Prius? More than 2 million Prii (???
Priuses???) have been sold worldwide. Nowhere in that display will you
find even the word "volt" let alone, "ampere" or "watt-hour". People
don't want it. You get 8 bars under the heading "battery". My car's
fuel gauge is probably isn't accurate to more than 1/8 amounts as
well. Hmmm, coincidence?

But go online (I just did, try priuschat.com for starters) and there
are people whining about it. Hmmm, parallel universes... On that forum
I just found this gem in reply to someone complaining about the bars,
"Don't try to get a certain number of bars...just drive it! :-)" Just
ride it.

But with any disruptive technology like the Prius and the Optibike
there will be a small group of people who don't want to "just ride it"
and want to hack it. There are dozens of impressive hacks of the Prius
and I'd bet someone is selling an analog to the CA for the Prius
(although 15 seconds on google didn't find it this am). Does that mean
Toyota will run out and make one today? Unlikely.

Don't take this as criticism. This is just a reality check. Many great
advancements have been made by the hackers and people who were not
happy with the Optibike as it was. And look how quickly Optibike
adopted the Rohloff. If and when it's right, they'll do something
display-wise too. Maybe not. Meanwhile, let them design and build the
greatest ebike in the world and those who want more will find support
and encouragement here (yes, from me too). I think once you get a
chance to see what's been done with the new batteries and motors in
the 1100, you'll realize that they've been spending their time well.
The batteries alone will be another great disruptive technology. Can't
wait to see what else comes out.
Cheers,
--John

[remf]

John, I understand that a CA type capability isn't mission critical for the Opti and yes it's more about the ride but when you consider that a lot of other bike manufacturers vying for the same customers are putting CA's or CA capabilities into their bikes I.e. Grace, Stealth, 3rd element, PG, etc, I think it's inevitable we'll see something like this on the Opti but maybe even better than the CA like an integrated touchscreen. When Toyota goes EV and their competitors have an accurate Amp hours used or range remaining display, you can be sure Toyota will have one too.

BTW your video was a teaser right? I want more :)

[lowco2]

Hey remf,
I agree that EV's need an have accurate gauges, but most of the
displays I've seen give the range (miles) or percentage, not Ah, most
of their customers just wouldn't know what to do with that. I'm sure
the data is in there somewhere, underlying the calculations and I'd
also bet someone is right now trying to figure out how to get it out.
Yes, I have a total of about 2 hours of video, just need to edit
more. I'm also working (hard) on a write-up of the whole experience.
The video is fine, but I'm trying to write a real and evocative story
about the experience. I like the art of storytelling, but it's hard to
get right. My editor (friend and English Prof. here) gave me some
great suggestions, and cleaned up the grammar, but most of his
suggestions were to get rid of the recounting of the story and get
into the telling of how it really felt. That's much harder, but I love
the process.
Cheers,
--John

On Sep 7, 7:13 am, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> John, I understand that a CA type capability isn't mission critical for the Opti and yes it's more about the ride but when you consider that a lot of other bike manufacturers vying for the same customers are putting CA's or CA capabilities into their bikes I.e. Grace, Stealth, 3rd element, PG, etc, I think it's inevitable we'll see something like this on the Opti but maybe even better than the CA like an integrated touchscreen. When Toyota goes EV and their competitors have an accurate Amp hours used or range remaining display, you can be sure Toyota will have one too.
>
> BTW your video was a teaser right? I want more :)
>

[Randi Sparkler]

I understand what is being said about the Prius but reiterate the
Optibike is being targeted at the 'Ferrari' owner not Toyota.
RS

[lowco2]

Well put, but Ferrari still has a gas gauge that probably is no more
accurate than Opti's lights....
And like in a Ferrari, if you're spending time looking at the gas
gauge, you're missing the point of owning one.
--J

[Bike_On]

For me, the value of the CA is less about the Whrs/Ahrs, and more
about the power. I'd like to **know** how much the bike is assisting
me going 30 mph up a 5% grade, etc.

After riding 1+ yr with a CA, the WHr story is pretty much told and
doesn't change unless I change my battery. My 21.5 miles rides take
about 12 ahrs and 420 whrs or so.

The CA is great to do "run till empty" testing, and allows one to
choose a route near home as Ahrs head the limits. The stinky solid-
RED led phase is very non-linear. While the other LED stages are 3
ahrs, typically, the last solid LED stage has measured double that or
more.

Again, knowing my instant power is VERY cool, and make one feel like
they have what they paid for and are riding something special.

Dan

> > > > >> (425) 508-7971 mobilewww.reidmiddleton.com- Hide quoted text -

[Bike_On]

PS. Again, adding ANT+ on the consol will allow a GArmin 500 owner to
read and record POWER right along with speed, HR, altitude, slope,
etc.

> > > > > >> (425) 508-7971 mobilewww.reidmiddleton.com-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[lowco2]

I use a number of ANT+ devices and have found them pretty good. I just
looked it up:
http://www.thisisant.com/
Doesn't seem to be any really nasty fees, but not sure about data
streams for volts, amps, etc.I didn't spend the time to read all the
tech stuff.
--John

> > > > > > >> (425) 508-7971 mobilewww.reidmiddleton.com-Hidequoted text -

[Ken Cline]

On Sep 7, 2011, at 9:53 AM, lowco2 wrote:

> Well put, but Ferrari still has a gas gauge that probably is no more
> accurate than Opti's lights....

My 1996 BMW has a reasonably accurate computer with mileage and remaining range displays. This is much better information (more relevant) than you get with the old style gas gauge. I suspect Ferrari offers similar information on their street cars.

Ferrari's race cars, on the other hand, are packed with 100-150 sensors and provide full telemetry to the pit. You better believe they know how much fuel is available.

> And like in a Ferrari, if you're spending time looking at the gas
> gauge, you're missing the point of owning one.

The pit crews might disagree...

[lowco2]

Sure, and Ferrari's race cars cost millions of dollars.... and it's
the pit crew who's reading all that, not the driver...
Ok, different strokes. Perhaps no coincidentally, one of my favorite
writers put this up today:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/09/07/notes090711.DTL
which ends with the poetic paragraph:
"Let's just say it outright: There will never be a Singularity, there
will never be seamless tech integration and, mark my not-so-humble
words, the nifty Ford Evos will never play your favorite song at the
perfect volume at the exact moment you want to hear it, not only
because that's just entirely stupid, but because we are awesomely
fickle, slippery creatures, because organic systems are fluid and
fluxive and can never be fully controlled or contained in a single
vision, because to attempt same is to beg nature to explode all over
us in a grand and glorious middle finger of, who the hell do you think
you are? Which is, when you think about it, actually very good news
indeed."

Whatever Optibike makes someone will not find it to their liking. Mark
my not-so-humble words about that. I who has all the meters in the
world on his bike, has my best performances, my best races, when I
stop looking at the damn meters and lock my eyes onto the wheel of the
guy in front of me and fight like hell to get past him. It's gotta be
fun.
--John

[Ken Cline]

On Sep 7, 2011, at 11:19 AM, lowco2 wrote:

> Whatever Optibike makes someone will not find it to their liking. Mark
> my not-so-humble words about that.

Right. Let's never ask for improvements, someone won't like it. Better to discourage the complaints ... then the world can become blissfully quiet.

[David GMail Email]

Touché

David B. Swanson, P.E., S.E.
Principal, LEED AP
Reid Middleton, Inc.
(425) 741-3800 office
(425) 508-7971 mobile
www.reidmiddleton.com

[Nimbuzz]

Again--If Opti would only run the low voltage shunt wire up to the
dash--can't cost much and peeps can do what they want from there. Or
make it a $100 option on new bikes.

[J]

Thank you Nimbuzz!

That sums it up beautifully.
I would like to see a lot less "marketing" from Optibike.

And a little more:
"run one wire up to the dash"

[Tor Atle Lunde]

ANT+ is the way to go. Has anyone from Optibike commented on why this
might be a bad idea?

Tor Atle

[J]

Installing the Cycle Analyst on a optibike was a MAJOR pain for me.
I did it with an electrical engineer (I have an AA in electronics) it took us about 8 hours to do it right.   And many hours to read up and choose the best installation method.

And Optibike still can't be bothered to put in a simple plug for the Cycle Analyst.

Are you kidding me?

So glancing at the Cycle Analyst display is dangerous but staring at blinking lights from the Vacuum Tube age is safe?

Are you kidding me?!

Having the Cycle Analyst is a huge breath of fresh air.   I never look at those retarded flashing lights anymore.   One glance at the Cycle Analyst and I know exactly how much juice I have left.  Now I can push my playtime in the jungle right up to the battery limits.   AND be sure I'll have power to get thru traffic on my way home.  And don't even suggest pedaling home when the battery goes dead.  I didn't buy a $10k  60 lb bike to pedal in city traffic choking on diesel fumes.

Come to think of it, if I was buying in a new Optibike.  These would be my priorities.

1. better tires: flats in the jungle suck.
2. better brakes:  BB7 should be standard.
3. better headlight: the LED lights are much better, use less power, and they are a simply plug in.  A no brainer.
4. better info: Cycle Analysts
5. better power transfer: Rohloff.  With the Rohloff installed I can ride thru the densest grass and undergrowth without the chain coming off.

To end on a positive note:  The MBB & battery & framehave proven to be durable.  The bike handles very well at speed.  Well done Optibike.

They have a very solid foundation.  For $10K maybe they could refine it just bit more?  
Run a wire up to the dashboard so I don't have to tear the whole bike apart to install Cycle Analyst!

[lowco2]

Just a quick comment...
If you want fewer flats go tubeless with Stan's sealant. Notubes.com
If you want "better power transfer" go back to the derailleur. A
Rohloff is less efficient (chain pull to power to the road) than the
derailleur. It is a lot less maintenance and probably less likely to
get damaged, but if efficiency is your key metric, it's not for you.
FWIW, Craig told me pretty much all the bikes he sells now are Rohloff
equipped.
John

[Jim_Kirk]

I would like to offer another opinion on Stan's Notubes.

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/optibike-owners-group/ajywzCcNjtI/discussion

-Jim

[Elect Bike]

I'll tell you what's dangerous , carrying a copy of the instruction
manual with you and looking at it just so you can understand the light
combination display for the battery level. I have never used a CA, and
I'm not sure I would know what to do with one, but at least make the
battery level gauge easier to use, like bionics or elplus : )
Other than that, I'm glad opti has developed a faster bike, good job
opti : )

On Sep 7, 1:31 am, J <compoun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> About 4 hours into the Cycle Analyst installation...
>

>  Optibike Cycle Analyst.jpg
> 87KViewDownload

[Bike_On]

J,

Congrats on the CA install. Do u have any picks?

What is your stock Opti bike and how old? I'm interested in your
power output, steady state.

Dan

[J]

Hi Dan,
I'm not sure what you mean by "picks"

Optibike 600.  (hmmm, an Optibike 1100 would almost double my power)

power output without pedaling is around:
650 watt on the flat
850 watt up hill
I've seen the Cycle Analyst report surges up to 1700 watts.  That was a surprise!

After 2.5 years my battery is 60% of original capacity.  That is interesting. 
The bike gets a regular workout on the local 2500 ft vertical mountain.

If the Optibike had enough juice for an all day ride (like a Toyota Prius)  then a simple 8 bar "fuel gauge" would be fine.   Considering that I can run the battery dead in less than one hour..... 
a more detailed "fuel gauge" is essential.

Any thoughts on replacing the individual cells in the battery AFTER the battery warranty expires?

[J]

Hi Dan,

You probably were asking if I have any pictures.
Yes, I posted one in this thread.
The battery pack and the Driver board are visible on the floor.  You can see from the mess I am not a professional bike mechanic!

That reminds me, 
A HUGE thanks to Jim Kirk. 
His detailed pictures are very good and inspired me to install a Cycle Analyst.

I'm never going back to flashing lights.  I am excited about the 1100R but I won't buy
another Optibike until they get at MUCH better "fuel gauge" options.
Flush the flashing lights down the toilet.

How many times did you stare down at your lights waiting to see if they are solid or flashing.
Is the battery at 30% or 50%
Did the flashing red just start or has it been flashing for 5 mins already.
Ughhh!

[Randi Sparkler]

Craig et al at Opti,

I presume you are you monitoring this?
To me it seems J, in his 3 latest posts above, captures nicely the
need for better battery monitoring - its not just the tech-heads who
will benefit.

Looking forward to the updated 'dashbord'/headlight unit in the
nearish future :)

Cheers
RS

[Jim_Kirk]

J,
    Glad the pictures helped.

-Jim

[Paul_G]

Optibike....drop the 3 year warranty on the new  battery s to one year and install CA's on the 1100R.....not as an option.  The new 850's leave as is with no CA to hide the battery s health as the 1100 has the new type battery and should hold up better.

I for one will never buy another bike without a CA.

This is not going to go away, The Sleepers Have Awoken :)

Paul G 

[Bike_On]

Personally, Ilike LEDs!! I like them because I'm an EE, and they are
very efficient and cool as lights, IMgeekO. Now that I have a CA, and
I know what each LED stage represents, they are a quick visible
display of capacity. The key is KNOWING what they mean. Last year,
each stage was about 3 ahrs of capacity. Now, with a software 5.10
upgrade and decreased battery, I'm down to 2.5 ahr/stage. J- what is
your Ahr/stage?

Of course, mi/ahr will depend on how hard I am riding the bike and
terrain. Yes, the CA is just easier to use.

I did not see any pic(ture)s.

BTW, just to compare CA to CA stats, your 650Watts on the flats is
what my 850Li does, was doing, even with decent capacity in 2010. My
bike/controller is in a real groove arounf 15A and 650W output, fresh
charged. Going up a hill (increase loading), it would hold 20 amps
and 700-750W or so. Never 850W steady state.

Boost mode, (30-60A easy)

Dan

[lowco2]

Hey Dan,
Have you ever put your bike on a trainer with a power output meter?
I'm curious if you've ever done a real world efficiency determination,
e.g. input watts to rubber-to-road watts.
--John

[Bike_On]

John-

No, no access to a dyno. You have likely seen my spreadsheets, which
I have refined over th epast 2 years. I use the GArmin calorie
estimate and derive from there. However, I assume a specific constant
for human eff : approx 28%, and also motor eff: approx 85%. Yes, I'd
really like to know power and eff for human and machine.

I only see the power after the Relay and before the Controller.

I expect it won't be too long before we have the tools and means, in
wireless, to analyze these.

The high end iBike computer, that REmf uses, comes close to real world
power by factorig temp, wind, mech loses and gradient into the total
power input needed. It also has ANT+ input for the Human/battery
power. It all downloads and graphs.

Dan

> > > Ughhh!- Hide quoted text -

[lowco2]

Thanks, Dan.
Yes, I appreciate your spreadsheets and generally very quantitative
approach to this. I have never been able to get a good sense of what
the calorie data from Garmin really means. Sometimes when I use it
simultaneously with my powertap on a regular bike it matches the
powertap and sometimes it's much higher. I never see it lower than the
powertap. The powertap (hub that reads my power produced) is
calculating actual work done at the hub (kilojoules) and there are
people who've compared that to calories expended by the person, since
the two are not the same. That's another fascinating topic -- human
caloric efficiency (really bad, some estimates put it as low as 30%).
I'm quite excited to see that Garmin will be bringing out the Vector
Pedals next year which can give me power for me when riding the
Optibike. I was thinking after sending that last message that I might
be able to do the Optibike efficiency test myself, I have the Optilink
and can get volts and amps, and compare to a dyno. Hmmm, more things
to try.
--John

[Bike_On]

John,

you should do it. You're the only one I know with direct tools to
take the measurements. Find a nice, steady, consistent, 3-5% incline
and have at it.

Yes, the power tap will give your actuals, but cannot determine your
eff. That will always be an estimate, will it not?

D

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[lowco2]

Dan,
I was thinking of putting my Opti (800Li) on a dyno and then running
it against that resistance at full throttle both in ECO and FAST mode.
That would give me two points that I should be able to hold steady and
get accurate measures on each individually. Optilink gives motor amps
and battery volts, so I should have power there. Dyno will give me
power at the rubber end of the rear wheel. Indoors testing eliminates
a bunch of the variables of doing it outside (wind, changes in road
slope, etc).
As for my (human) contribution, that will have to wait for the Garmin
Vectors (pedals that have strain gauges built in). They look very
cool: http://sites.garmin.com/vector/#power
That will have to wait. At that point, running both, I could get bike
by simply powertap minus Vector.
--John

[Bike_On]

John,

Can you jump on the bike after fast/eco test and measure your power to
the rubber, while on the dyno? That would be a well controlled data
point(s). Easy/hard, after warm up, etc.

Also, how is dyno resistance changed? The opti has a fairly narror
efficiency rpm curve (imo) and running too hard or too easy will
effect motor eff. Sound right?

After re-thinking, dyno resistance can be fixed and you just change
the gears!! The brilliance of mid-drive, geared e drive!

Dan

[lowco2]

Yes, but I can tell you a lot about my power output from my powertap
data. My race on Sat:
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/sw/ALMZUMIHN6IVLCK33UTDQ2MUUE
my best 20 min was 268 watts (~4.3 w/kg, the really important
parameter). The challenge with these are that the course is not
constant. Here's the GPS:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/113351753
BTW, that is the most spectacular MTB race in this area, views are of
lake Tahoe along the flume and on the back side, you can see the
Virginia Range (where most of San Francisco's wealth was made).
Marlette Lake and the flume originally provided water to Virginia City
and the Comstock Lode, prompting Mark Twain to comment about water
running uphill towards money. An amazing feat of engineering for it's
time. Actually not uphill as they drilled a tunnel through the crest
of the Sierra (Tunnel Creek Road is appropriately named) and that is
higher than Virginia City, so it's more an inverted syphon than
anything.
The dyno can be set to a dynamic response, so it increases load as
speed increases. Supposed to simulate wind resistance. I just want a
steady-state read so as to avoid the boost mode.
--John

[Ken Cline]

To be fair, J did not complain about LEDs - he complained about flashing lights! I think he hit the nail on the head here - forcing the rider to spend time staring at the display to see whether a gas gauge light is flashing is just plain wrong.

Leave the LEDs if that's what people want, but add a couple in between to make a proper bar graph display and give me full computer information so I can find out what they mean when my bike is acting strange ()also so I can find out lots of other useful stuff). That's really my biggest complaint - the meaning of the LEDs changes with temperature and battery health enough that can't trust them.

[Nicholas Turner]

How do you read the CA without spending time starting at the display?

I think its good argument, but I can see the flashing LED's out of the corner of my eye a lot easier than the numbers off a CA

[remf]

Good question. I usually slow down and quickly scan for data. All new CA's are the large screen variety, much easier to read. Also CA's can be custom programmed for OEM's which means that the top screen on an Opti CA could have a fuel gauge type display, easy to glance at and far higher resolution than the LED's. More detailed data could then be viewed at the press of a button.

[Ken Cline]

On Sep 12, 2011, at 5:18 PM, Nicholas Turner wrote:

> How do you read the CA without spending time starting at the display?

Isn't this the wrong comparison? No one has suggested eliminating a separate gas gauge display.

You might compare the CA with a regular bicycle computer, but since the CA is our only option for getting detailed data I don't really see the point.

> I think its good argument, but I can see the flashing LED's out of the corner of my eye a lot easier than the numbers off a CA

Apparently you have line of sight from your eyes to the LEDs. Not so for me - I need to bend my head pretty far down to view the display (and I suspect I am not alone).

[Randi Sparkler]

I'm with Ken

In my experience - I wear multi focal lenses - I dont have a hope of
knowing exactly where the LEDs are at from my peripheral vision.
Typically I find I take have to take several glances at them before I
work out exactly what is happening. Conversly, I can take one quick
glance at my Garmin computer, which I have programmed to an acceptable
font size and read which ever cell it is that I am interested in.

RS

[Jim_Kirk]

Well, its interesting that now we are talking about the details of a CA on an Opti when its been made very clear that Opti will simply not put a CA on period.

-Jim

[USV]

After market parts are just that, aftermarket...DIY if u want it. Not
an easy task meant for everyone...but, if 3-4 other members here
can do it, so can u with a few tools...well more than a few...but the
challenge is what makes this a fun hobby = )

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/...there is a wealth of electric vehicle
info to gleen from that website...a must read for any e-vehicle
hobbyist...

New large screen model CA (the original boxy small screen model has
been discontinued) http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

-geeky but ...too much info sometimes is a cool useful thang...
-when I'm riding at speed, I only glance at 1 of the 4 important
numbers a split second...( it is not necessary to stare at it like a
dweeb & crash = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4hXdsVUnp4 )
1: Volts 2: Watts or 3: Amps: The instantaneous electric power being
drawn from the battery.
5: Amp-Hours: The net energy that has been pulled from the pack since
the meter was reset. The accumulated amp-hours let you know the
remaining energy in the battery pack with far greater accuracy than a
voltage or LED indicator.

my uses for the 4 numbers above:
1: Volts: keeping track of this number closely is a must when running
after market batteries without a BMS...with Batteries with a BMS, not
so much but still good to know.

2: Watts: here is where noise in a motor is good...by listening to
it's rpm, I can guage when it's a good time to glance at the watts
drawn...the number I look for before shifting up is 1500W or
lower...with my modded set-up...pulling too much current = a stalled/
no longer spinning motor which kills peak efficiency & requires more
energy to get the motor wound up again at speed.

3: Amps: fun to know how many amps i'm pull'n/wasting...woohooo...

4: Amp-Hours: an accurate fuel guage...an ever changing number as a
battery ages = ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4

[J]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:43:25 AM UTC-4, Jim_Kirk wrote:

its been made very clear that Opti will simply not put a CA on period.

-Jim

Thanks for summing it up Jim.  There is not much point discussing CA if Opti is dead set against it.   I'll quietly cling to irrational hope that Opti will make a CA plug an option. 
 
 Have you heard of anybody opening up the battery pack and replacing all the individual cells?   I am guessing the cells are standard size 18650 LIon.   I dread opening up the Optibike for surgery again but I think the hardest part would be drilling out the many rivets around the edge of the battery pack. 

I would prefer to try the new 24 AH Opti battery but I am outside the USA so shipping costs are huge because the battery is considered HAZMAT.

[Ken Cline]

On Sep 16, 2011, at 1:46 PM, J wrote:

On Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:43:25 AM UTC-4, Jim_Kirk wrote:

its been made very clear that Opti will simply not put a CA on period.

-Jim

Thanks for summing it up Jim.  There is not much point discussing CA if Opti is dead set against it.   I'll quietly cling to irrational hope that Opti will make a CA plug an option. 

Then cheer up!  It looks like we ar being heard loud and clear.  I'm bringing a CA down to Boulder next week for a factory install.

 Have you heard of anybody opening up the battery pack and replacing all the individual cells?   I am guessing the cells are standard size 18650 LIon.   I dread opening up the Optibike for surgery again but I think the hardest part would be drilling out the many rivets around the edge of the battery pack. 

I haven't heard of it being done yet.  I can't see anything stopping you if you are determined.  Just be sure you know what you are doing - wiring up the 100 cells in a Opti pack seems like a serious project.  Let us know what cells you find.

[Nimbuzz]

Ken, Perhaps you can clear this up--you have the new CA, right? When
Craig said they'd never use an Atari looking device it seems this
would be referring to the older CA which is still pictured at the top
of the CA page. Doesn't the new one look cool & modern or is it still
retro 'Atari' looking?

[J]

On Monday, September 12, 2011 11:58:09 AM UTC-4, Bike_On wrote:

BTW, just to compare CA to CA stats, your 650Watts on the flats is
what my 850Li does, was doing, even with decent capacity in 2010

I check again today. 
Its closer to:
600 Watts on the flat
800 watts on hills loading up...

Seems pretty good considering my battery capacity is now only 12 Amp Hours.

Has anybody notice the Max Amps read out?
Today was an easy mountain ride and it hit 73 Amps.  I've definitely seen higher. 

It seems the speed controller keeps adding current as long as speed is increasing even slightly.

[Ken Cline]

Right - I have the new Cycle Analyst on order. Its looks are nothing to write home about, but I don't honestly think it will be noticed next to the big Optibike console.

[Jim_Kirk]

Ken,
     Questions:

1. You paid for the CA and you are bringing your CA and your bike to the factory.  How are you being charged for the install?  Could it be gratis so the factory can see what's involved?
2. Where will the CA mount on your bike?
   
3. Can you ask the factory powers on high, if someone buys a new Opti and wants a CA installed on his new bike, will this be a factory option starting immediately?

Good to see that we have moved from a blanket "no we won't" to .... well I'll wait for you answer :)

-Jim

[Ken Cline]

On Sep 17, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Jim_Kirk wrote:

Ken,
     Questions:

1. You paid for the CA and you are bringing your CA and your bike to the factory.  How are you being charged for the install?  Could it be gratis so the factory can see what's involved?

I understand that they have done one other CA install recently and expect to be charged for the service, but we have not discussed a price.

2. Where will the CA mount on your bike?
   

The shunt will be connected a the relay board (by the charging and external battery connectors) with the wire will feed through the frame next to the others that connect to the headlamp/console unit.  Presumably, the CA will be mounted to the handlebar.  I plan to remove the old cycle computer,

3. Can you ask the factory powers on high, if someone buys a new Opti and wants a CA installed on his new bike, will this be a factory option starting immediately?

They don't have any CAs ready to install, so it is not an option at this time.

[Jim_Kirk]

Ken,
    So you initiated the request for a factory install and Opti agreed?  With the proviso, I assume, that you supply the CA and they will supply the labor?  Cost, I understand from your answer to my Q1 is TBD.
   
    How long will the install take?  Leaving the bike at the factory for a few days?

-Jim