Pikes Peak - an analysis

[remf]

With the Assault on the Peak only months away, it's time to analyse the race and a couple of the competitors we all know will be racing. Why does it mean so much? It's a battle of speed and endurance open to all comers on one of the steepest, longest mountain climbs in America - 24.5 miles, climbing over 7,700 feet at an average grade of 6.7% and maximum 10.5%, finishing at the summit - an elevation of 14,110 feet.

For the electric bikes, it's a race of attrition, a contest for both riders and manufacturers, where even making it to the top is a victory. But there will be only one true victor, the bike and rider that summits the mountain first - although it's not that simple. To make it to the top, the rider must manage power usage, keeping an eye on State Of Charge yet still try and keep in front of the next guy, racing up a monstrous mountain.

So with Optibike ready to defend their title, the question is can a big hub bike like the Stealth Bomber make it up all the way? Can it beat the Opti? Those are questions which will only be answered on August 28th on top of the mountain. The only way to get an idea beforehand is to race both bikes up a big mountain. Well this is Australia, our tallest mountain is Mount Kosciuszko at 7,310 feet, about half the height of Pikes…and there's nothing even remotely close to that around here. What I do have is a 0.34 mi, 15.1% Average grade, 20.1% Maximum grade pathway that leads up the 'mountain' here. Today I raced the Bomber up limited to 1,500W, then at full power, followed by the OB1R. Here are some stats. Remember this much steeper than Pikes, 15.1% vs 6.7% average grade.

Stealth Bomber @ 1500W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYftsHztYz8

37wh 106 Wh/mi

Max 22.8 mph Ave 14 mph

Stealth Bomber @ 5000W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADWHb6OyLM

50wh 140 Wh/mi

Max 35.8 mph Ave 28.8 mph

Opti OB1R

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXIO1UcPp64

Estimated 30 Wh/mi

Max 19.8 mph Ave 10.8 mph

Conclusions

The main question is, will the Bomber make it at these discharge rates? At much lower grades than these, like at Pikes, it may be possible. With a standard 1.5 kWh pack, it would need to discharge at ~60 Wh/mi or less in order to make it to the top. Another big question, can it go 25 mph up Pikes while using less than 60 Wh/mi?

There are many possible scenarios and variables that will affect the outcome. If reports on the forums are correct, Opti will be arriving in force with their new bikes - most likely a 1500W bike with the mother of all batteries, capable of climbing the mountain at 20+ mph. Stealth may choose to enter a Bomber with a ventilated high torque motor and LiPo pack or maybe even a high torque Fighter. Other variables include, not least of all, the riders' capabilities and weather conditions, especially wind.

With Opti focused on this, Stealth are an outside chance of taking it out, though I would have to say it's unlikely. Of course there's always the possibility of other mid-drives like the eSpire turning up, maybe even a "60 mph" Blacktrail. Or some of the incredibly skilled & talented people from ES. Doctorbass? I hope they all turn up.

What is more important is the participation and resulting message to those who haven't even heard of e-bikes. The message is clear, the electric bike is the most cost effective means available to address climate change through CO2 equivalent emission reduction, a solution to global traffic congestion and soaring costs of obesity, heart disease and related conditions.

http://knol.google.com/k/energy-global-warming-and-electric-bicycles#

[lowco2]

Great post, remf...
So, the way I see this, there are two questions:
1) Can the bike make it, and 2) who's going to win.
The first is not a trivial one, as last year the only bike that made
it was the Optibike and while I know there weren't many entered, it
still says a lot about the range and durability of the Optibike. Your
analysis would drain the battery on the bomber pretty dead. I'm not
sure I'd want to be riding that bike at 14,000' (read: not much
oxygen) only to have the battery die. If you give it a 15% safety,
that would drop the ave discharge to 52 Wh/mi, can you guess where
that would put the speed?
The second question kind of assumes that all bikes can make it. Then
we consider the speed. I think speed will be a function of w/kg
averaged over the ride. This will be an interesting calculation as it
takes into account two metrics: bike's W/kg and rider's W/kg. If, like
on the Optibike, the two add pretty well, it's an easy calc, but I'm
not sure how strictly additive the pedaling and the motor will be on a
hub-powered bike. The human's W/kg is going to be very tough to figure
as well. Give that Optibike did 1.75 hr last year, I'm betting they
could cut this to 1.5 hr. If a rider measures his or her average power
for that long at sea level (or even Denver at 5,280') I think that's
going to be way off from what that same rider will be able to produce
for the last mile to the summit. Going to be interesting.
--John

>  Pikes Peak profile.jpg
> 233KViewDownload
>
>  Optibike OB1R Hill Climb.jpg
> 796KViewDownload

[Paul_G]

I assume Opti will carry an external battery as well?

I never got 24.5 miles going uphill on just the internal flat out on hi-power

Paul G

[Paul_G]

So if Opti carries a 2nd battery why can't Stealth or anyone else do the same?

Paul G

[Paul_G]

I bet Opti carries a 2nd external battery for the race, I know I carry an external when I go riding far and IMO there is no way you can do 24.5 miles going uphill on just one under h-power.....unless the new 29 AH will allow it.

So if thats the case Stealth and others should do the same and run balls to the wall :)

Paul G

[lowco2]

I don't think there's a rule on that. I guess the drawback is more
battery == higher weight = lower W/kg. Risk vs. Reward is in there
too, risking running out of battery, but rewarded by higher speed.
--J

[Nimbuzz]

I just posted this thread on Endless Sphere; (Thanks for the specs
remf)

Pikes Peak Race--Entering?
by Nimbuzz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:05 am

Is anyone at ES planning to enter the ebike section of the Pikes Peak
hill climb 6/26/11?

Is there any plan that we could chip in to help cover expenses for an
entrant or two?

http://www.usacracing.com/ppihc

It's a battle of speed and endurance open to all comers on one of
the steepest, longest mountain climbs in America - 24.5 miles,
climbing over
7,700 feet at an average grade of 6.7% and maximum 10.5%, finishing at
the
summit - an elevation of 14,110 feet.

For the electric bikes, it's a contest for both riders, builders and
manufacturers, where even making it to the top is a victory. Riders

must manage power usage, keeping an eye on State Of Charge yet still
try and keep in front of the next guy, racing up a monstrous
mountain.
So with Optibike ready to defend their title, the question is can a

big hub bike like the Stealth Bomber or a custom homebuilt make it up

all the way? Can it beat the Opti?

Al
Tidalforce M750X
C-Lyte 5304, 36V, Montague
Optibike 800Li

[chessmonster]

Pretty big mistake Al if you really want Opti to hold on to their title.

Those guys over there are on a different planet...trust me.

We have  stealth bomber coming to my hill climb race i am doing on May 14th (i believe steve's bomber here on the groups) and to be honest it doesn't have a chance.

If you thought stealth was opti's biggest challenger...wait until 3-4 of those sphere guys make a car pool and come over....omg...you dont even want to know what guys like ilovephysics have up his sleeve.

I said before i have been keeping pikes on the down low over on the sphere  because i would really like to see opti keep its back yard title....

[remf]

John, those are the questions. At 14,000, the rarified air will provide problems for both rider and bike - oxygen levels and motor heat becoming a major challenge above 10,000. A ventilated 5305 LiPo Bomber may have a good shot at it. The motor vents providing air circulation to maximise cooling, the 5305 operating more efficiently for the required torque and the LiPo's reducing the bikes weight by 10 kg, or provide considerably higher energy density for the same weight, the W/kg metric being pivotal, absolutely agree. And yes, as you point out, on the Bomber, the rider's input is relatively small as a proportion overall while on the Opti, it's significant though on a 1500W machine, less so.

From what I recall reading about last years event, not many (or any?) made it past the halfway point. What would make it really interesting, would be if all of the German überbikes turn up - PG, Grace etc. Another important metric for me -  price/success, $/placing.

[Bike_On]

Remf,

On Pikes last year, a Kalkoff made it up to the top. (Another mid-
drive system, ie efficient in all gears, multi-speeds)

An Izip Express and a home brew did not survive.

Dan

On Apr 25, 9:53 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> John, those are the questions. At 14,000, the rarified air will provide
> problems for both rider and bike - oxygen levels and motor heat becoming a
> major challenge above 10,000. A ventilated 5305 LiPo Bomber may have a good
> shot at it. The motor vents providing air circulation to maximise cooling,
> the 5305 operating more efficiently for the required torque and the LiPo's
> reducing the bikes weight by 10 kg, or provide considerably higher energy
> density for the same weight, the W/kg metric being pivotal, absolutely
> agree. And yes, as you point out, on the Bomber, the rider's input is
> relatively small as a proportion overall while on the Opti, it's significant
> though on a 1500W machine, less so.
>
> From what I recall reading about last years event, not many (or any?) made
> it past the halfway point. What would make it really interesting, would be
> if all of the German überbikes turn up - PG, Grace etc. Another important
> metric for me -  price/success, $/placing.
>

[remf]

Sorry Dan, I missed the word hub. As far as I recall, no hub motor  even came close.

[Bike_On]

Remf,

Love your post and detailed challenge. I think Stealth is fighting
Opti in its element. It's like a wildebeest racing a billy goat up
the rocky crags. Unless Stealth gets a high torque motor and operates
in the effic sweet spot, it is just going to overheat, imo.

Chess: I think the ES challenge is a good one....let them bring their
best hub design...not a mid drive. If Opti does not win, then
knowledge advances.

DR

[remf]

Steve lives in the UK, hasn't got his Bomber yet and is built like the Terminator. Don't annoy him, he has a hangover and he'll crush you :) Haven't heard of a Stealth in the SF Bay area. But I thought you said you've ridden one. Was that in California?

[chessmonster]

Regarding hubs...

You guys are right 2 hubs joined last years challenge but both were bmc hubs....bmc hubs are my specialty..and that is the absoletly worst motor that challenge. They simply over heat under that kind of rigorous climb..they are not very good steep climbers at all, although they beat the optibike easily in most paved climbs...just not the pike peak types.

Now the stealth is a different animal. It is a direct drive hub (crystallite) which are known for there durability. Also Stealth intalls additional cooling on those...either fan cooling or water cooling to make them completely bullet proof. If a stealth shows up it will crush a stock opti....and it should not fail up that hill...direct drives are good for this kind of challenge. There are a bunch of dd's on endless sphere builds with fan cooling, ventilation holes, etc...that also could easily do this climb without failing.

And then there are guys like physics, and matt who could do that climb on mid drive systems with super efficient (95 efficient) high horsepower motors, with cooling fins or water cooling or whatever they dream up...that could probably compete that race is fast as they could corner it...i am thinking they woud average 40-50mph with no problem up that hill.

Physics spends a lot of time in china researching the latest greatest battery and motor technogy and always has something crazy fast in his workshop. I am pretty sure thanks to nimbuzz he is going to show up...so research live4physics and figure out a way to beat him....

[Bike_On]

Chess, LOL.

The only water cooling those guys will see is the rain storm at 10,000
feet, and there won't be much air left at 14000 ft for their fan
cooling, if they make it that high.

For ANY, ANY, ANY non-mid drive hub ebike, on Pikes in 2011...show me
the $$$ that they will beat the Opti.

If they do win, my first question is "How many modified their standard
ride with a high torque hub?" Opti doesn't need special and major
modifications, they just change gears.

> > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 5:48 AM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> Pretty big mistake Al if you really want Opti to hold on to their title.
>
> >> Those guys over there are on a different planet...trust me.
>
> >> We have  stealth bomber coming to my hill climb race i am doing on May
> >> 14th (i believe steve's bomber here on the groups) and to be honest it
> >> doesn't have a chance.
>
> >> If you thought stealth was opti's biggest challenger...wait until 3-4 of
> >> those sphere guys make a car pool and come over....omg...you dont even want
> >> to know what guys like ilovephysics have up his sleeve.
>
> >> I said before i have been keeping pikes on the down low over on the sphere
> >>  because i would really like to see opti keep its back yard title....
>

> >>> > > Paul G- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[chessmonster]

No doubt about it opti will still be able to claim top stock bike...no doubt about it..except if you considered stealth bomber as stock bike...and i dont really count it because of its weight and not really sold here in US.

But if you dont think a modified hub moter Enless Sphere  will win that race over a stock opti...i will make that bet with you. Do you seriously want to bet? i will put up the $$$$$$ with you no problem.

Let me know if your serious and then we can define terms of bet.

ERIC

[Bike_On]

Eric,

I don't bet for $, just for a beer or soda, etc.

Yes, I agree it will take a SPECIAL modified hub, not their standard
ride. Even so, if Opti tweeked their controller to allow more power/
heat, got a nice flat new battery, bumped the battery by 2 cells to
50.4 volts pk, ..it would be interesting. Their average output power
would incr to about 1100W+ human.

I give Stealth a small chance with a 505/06 hub.

Dan

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[chessmonster]

Oh forgot link to penis cooling...here it is : http://www.youtube.com/user/liveforphysics532#p/u/0/e03rMDmJzLE

Oh and these same guys have used water cooling and forced air cooling as well.

[chessmonster]

Bike-on...maybe not water cooling...

But would you believe....penis cooling?

If you watch the following ilovephysics video for a few minutes until the motor stops spinning you will see he made cooling holes in a hub motor the shape of little penises...wait until the motor dies and you will see the holes they cut in it...shaped like little penises.

Anyway he is running 40,000 watts to this slighty modified crystallite motor as a test...takes about a minute for it to explode.

Good test....http://www.youtube.com/user/liveforphysics532#p/u/0/e03rMDmJzLE

[Paul_G]

The Stealth is now sold here in the US and the one I ordered should be shipping out today.

http://stealthelectricbikesusa.com/index.html

Paul G

[Ken Cline]

On 26 Apr 2011, at 2:23 PM, chessmonster wrote:

Anyway he is running 40,000 watts to this slighty modified crystallite motor as a test...takes about a minute for it to explode.

Good test....

You misspelled "spectacularly bad".  "Oh shit" is not what people say during good tests. The burning insulation is another hint that something went wrong.

If the video is to be believed this monster hub motor is also monstrously inefficient.  44800 watts is 60hp, yet dyno never even 10hp. 1/6 efficiency is shameful.  Hopefully there is another explanation, but that makes all the info in the video questionable.

Electric motorcycle hub motors of this caliber are commercially available.  I don't think your man is producing anything remarkably new.

One more thing: The Assault on the Peak is a bicycle ride up Pike's Peak. Showing up with a motorcycle class vehicle would be in bad taste.

[chessmonster]

That is just a stock crystallite motor 13lbs only modification is it has penis holes cut in it. He is running 40,000 watts through it...did you expect efficiency?

What do you think it is? Some top secret motorcycle engine he is working on? Why so serious? Why cant you just acknowledge that video is cool as shiat.

Where did you get the 10hp thing out of curiousity?

Just misspelled shit by the way so please dont ream me.

[remf]

"The Assault on the Peak is a bicycle ride up Pike's Peak. Showing up with a motorcycle class vehicle would be in bad taste."

I agree & disagree.

What's the point in e-motos racing e-bikes racing regular bikes? I can't see any point whatsoever. An electric motorcycle will be able to fly up the mountain, no battery constraints, no pedalling. No point being in this race.

But the event is not a race, it's a sanctioned "Fun Ride" that is timed...and even though there aren't any classifications, the results and times for e-bikes and regular bikes are reported separately.

The Stealth Bomber isn't an electric motorcycle, the ride to the top will be a challenge for bike and rider so I believe a valid participant. I also think it'll also be a great challenge for any of the homebuilts, so come one, come all IMO. A weight limit would make sense though...maybe 120 pounds? That's double the weight of the Opti, about the same as a stock Bomber.

[Ken Cline]

On 26 Apr 2011, at 5:04 PM, chessmonster wrote:

> That is just a stock crystallite motor

...
> What do you think it is? Some top secret motorcycle engine he is working on? Why so serious? Why cant you just acknowledge that video is cool ...

The dynamometer is cool, but where's the skill in melting a motor by hooking it up to a ridiculous power supply? Cutting holes in things does not impress me. I have a CNC machine shop for that kind of work. Sorry for being negative, but kid stuff like this does not represent any sort of advancement of the art.

Oh, and that frame was absolutely awful. A pair of 1/4x1 (or so) solid steel arms? Yuck! I'll tell one thing, the bike frame I built was a whole lot nicer than that...

> Where did you get the 10hp thing out of curiousity?

Look at the numbers when he pans over to the dyno display.

[Paul_G]

120 lbs would put the Bomber out as the Opti will carry a 2nd external battery and the bomber will have to carry one as well IMO.

Paul G

[Bike_On]

REmf,

I crunched some numbers for the Bomber using:
http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/ProdDiss/Bicycle/bikecalc1.htm

Specs:
Man 175lb
bike 115 lbs
grade 6.7% (14 miles) and 10.5% (10 miles)
mech losses 4%
roll resist .007
elevation gain 7700ft
Speed 25mph

@ 6.7%, need 1388 Watts at 25mph
@10.5%, need 1952 Watts at 25mph, 1481 at 20 mph

According to the ebikes.ca simulator, a 504 hub can attain these
powers and maintain speed at 66V and a 40 controller, and maintain an
efficiency around 75%.

Dan

[remf]

Very nice numbers Dan !!! Show's it's possible without considering the thermal issues.

I'd like to see the Doc give it a shot.

http://www.evalbum.com/1947

http://www.crunchgear.com/2011/04/27/this-homemade-electric-bike-looks-armageddon-ready/

[Ken Cline]

You need to add the power wasted due to inefficiency when doing the motor simulation. That brings input power up above 2.5kW for the 25mph 10.5% slope case, and I think you lose some efficiency due to the higher power. Figure on at least 750 watts wasted heating the motor.

On the plus side, you don't have 4% mechanical loss with a hub motor.

[Bike_On]

Right on Ken. I didn't bother to calculate heat. That is 750W for 10
miles of riding. If they slow down and get less efficient, it can get
worst.

[Bike_On]

Posted this on ES forum...looks like they are cooling off.

Nimbuzz' invite/challenge now two weeks old and still no definitive ES
superstar entries, whether people or ebikes hubs. Yaaaaawn. I guess
you all better enter your mid-drive, Opti-wannabees and mix it up. At
least you all are smart enough to do the math and see it is near
impossible with a hub designed ebike (anyone try 12" wheels??? :lol: )

[chessmonster]

Only 280 comments in 2 weeks on that thread....

But hey yeah maybe none of those ES guys  will show up!  

Then it could be a opti ralley and barbecue!

Celebration dance with wine and cheese on the snowy top.

Weren't  you guys planning some kind of festivity at the top? Like an opti-bash?

How many guys are coming from the optigroups? 

I for one am going....the way this one has been built up how can i miss it. This one is the mother of all hill climbs...you guys made that sparkling clear.

[remf]

So you won't be joining in the celebrations if Opti wins?

Oh that's right, you're no longer an Opti owner. If I am in the US late August, I'll be there.

[lowco2]

Hey remf, let me know if you are heading stateside. Maybe I'll meet
you out there. I'll be in Colorado for sure a few weeks before for
Leadville. Going to be my 10th ride down that trail, log my 1000th
mile on that trail. Cheers,
J

On May 7, 1:57 am, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So you won't be joining in the celebrations if Opti wins?
>
> Oh that's right, you're no longer an Opti owner. If I am in the US late August, I'll be there.
>

> On 07/05/2011, at 4:48 PM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Only 280 comments in 2 weeks on that thread....
>
> > But hey yeah maybe none of those ES guys  will show up!  
>
> > Then it could be a opti ralley and barbecue!
>
> > Celebration dance with wine and cheese on the snowy top.
>
> > Weren't  you guys planning some kind of festivity at the top? Like an opti-bash?
>
> > How many guys are coming from the optigroups?
>
> > I for one am going....the way this one has been built up how can i miss it. This one is the mother of all hill climbs...you guys made that sparkling clear.
>

[chessmonster]

I am really hurt guys...

Only opti owners are invited to the opti party?

How do you know i am not going to borrow my old opti and meet you guys at the top of the hill pulling a trailer full of beer....i mean wine and cheese?

Are opti borrowers allowed to the opti-bash?

[Liveforphysics]

It's actually had the windings cut out, rewound by hand to a slightly
higher kV, phase resistance dropped from 274mOhm to 138mOhm, this
managed to make roughly a 20% gain in kM. Wire used was 220C rated
inverted spike capable wire, and the teeth were insulated with
Kapton. The terminations were done with a hydraulic forging crimper
rather than soldered to further increase temp limits vs solder. The
axle was custom machined to allow 8awg phase leads to exit the motor.
The had the holes machined, bearings replaced with ceramics, balanced,
and then got the worlds worst wheel lacing job ever into the rim that
I fit a Pirelli diablo scooter tire upon. The intenary was to true
the awful "hop" from the wheel, but that became time prohibitive to
complete before the dyno session.


The battery was a 30Ah 116v 30-40c Lipo pack. The controller was a
120v 400amp Kelly.

The motor was saturated completely by 10kW input, making roughly
9.5-10hp out, peaking 128ft-lbs of torque.
It was able to maintain that level decently, certainly not continuous,
but continuous enough as its usage model in the race it was built for
would demand (a tight twisty shift kart track).

The failure came from me wanting to qualify the controllers power
delivery capability, knowing that it was obviously saturated at
10kW, but pushing to 20kW, and then 40kW just for a quick pull (mostly
for fun). Made slightly less power out at 40kW, and failed in a
delightful soft blue plasma display, which made it all worthwhile.

Retrospectively, trying a blip of 40kW was poor judgement considering
the timeline for Tue event required leaving the following day for a
18hr drive to Tucson AZ. However, I was fortunate to have a good
driver take me in a van, where I was able to rebuild the bike with a
different motor while in transit, and we made the event fine, minutes
to spare. :)

The second motor was a stock crystalyte 5304 however, and didn't have
slthe special high-temp hall effect sensors I had used in the previous
motor, which ended up being its undoing at the event.

[remf]

John, not 100% I'll be stateside before the race yet, hopefully I will be and will certainly let you know if I am. Leadville, Pikes Peak, Le Tour, exciting times and 10th ride down Leadville is a major achievement in itself!

[remf]

Welcome to the group LFP. Sounds like a total monster. I for one would like to see you and any other grunt jockeys attempt the Assault on the Peak. I'd say I'm the minority here on this one, many others say it's a bike ride and that power freaks should go to the IIHC at Pikes next month. Are you planning an Assault on the Peak? I hope so.

[remf]

Don't be hurt Eric, I am sure it's an open invitation, win, lose or draw. Everyone's a winner just for showing up. Heavily modified hubs have a shot at making it with small wheels and effective ventilation or active cooling. If one or more are successful, beating the Optibikes, then I wouldn't see it as a loss in any way at all for Opti. The überhubs should be put in a separate category in the results in any case.

What's the obsession with wine & cheese? Some sort of class order beverage thing or something? Don't you have cask wine & Kraft cheese in the US :?

[Liveforphysics]

Thank you for the welcome. As I type this, I'm finishing the battery
for a TTGPX bike, and working on the bracket design to put an Agni
(running on 100v 650amps) on a little BMX with a 18" extended swing
arm for a hill climb event.

I'm frankly a little put-off by all hubmotors, but if it were to be
worth my while, I would come dominate the event. It doesn't sound like
its a race though if I'm understanding correctly?

Are there any incentives or motivation if I came with a hubmotor
bicycle and cut the fastest Optibike time up the peak in half?

On May 7, 6:07 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Welcome to the group LFP. Sounds like a total monster. I for one would like
> to see you and any other grunt jockeys attempt the Assault on the Peak. I'd
> say I'm the minority here on this one, many others say it's a bike ride and
> that power freaks should go to the IIHC at Pikes next month. Are you
> planning an Assault on the Peak? I hope so.
>

[chessmonster]

Oh man you guys are so in trouble...offer him an optibike not to come!!!!

[lowco2]

Thanks, remf. I'm working hard to make sure this Leadville is a good
one. Gooing out on a bang as it were.
I definitely want to be there to see what happens at Pikes. By my
math, Jim made it last year at 14 mph. He should easily cut that time
a lot this year, so figure 20+? mph. Someone will crack the hour time,
I'd bet, that's about 25 mph. I can't I imagine riding that road with
all those turns at 50 mph. That could be dangerous without some
serious tires and driving skills. What's that line? Big mountain
skills or hospital bills...
Going to be a blast...
J

[chessmonster]

Ok this silence is deafening...

I don't understand with all your guys's chatter, banter, mouthing off etc. about no way a hubmotor will finish this race...

that someone doesnt offer a "gentleman's bet" of like 2k or something that physics can't do what he says...and finish in half the time of the quickest opti. I cant imagine physics backing down if someone offering him such a bet. I can say this if physics makes the bet, he is good for it...i can vouch that he is indeed honorable...he might be bluffing however...but that may never be known if you guys just sit on your hands scared.

So why not make this interesting and one of you gentlemans put some money up? If you can spend 12k on a bike....you can put 2k on a bet and amp up the excitement of this entire event. This seems like a good way to get some of your investment back you put into your opti...and will have a great story here on the groups for years....and it will make your wine taste that much better at the top...that you fought off the endless sphere beast and took his money.

I actually think considering all that can go wrong in a race like this....depending on the parameters of the bet (for example does it have to be a stock opti, is physics only allowed to enter one bike) this sounds like a very good bet for the opti guys. Heck i would give it %50 that whatever physics brings explodes in the first 10 miles.  Heck if i was still an opti owner i  would 100 percent make a bet with physics right now...and show up on my own opti to help beat him.

As your opti advisor and former team member..i think this is the point someone should offer a bet just to see how serious physics is. Maybe he is just bluffing? This is a opportunity that should not be passed.

Wouldnt it be worth 2k just to make this event one of the most watched electric hill events of all time on two different forums?

Or you can just remain silent...which would speak volumes on where your real hearts are.

I really hate to be a rabble rouser here....but i just want to emphasize the weight of physics offer....

How could you guys just let pass this golden opportunity? You guys already passed 2 very good bets from me...atleast one i know i would have lost....#1 i bet 1k that a hub motor would win this race....silence...#2 i made the 1k bet that an ego vehicle would beat an opti if you guys would show to my house in SF within 3 days...silence....

In the spirits of mother day, i am posting a pic of the ego vehicle you bowed down too. I won by none of you even considering my bet.

Its time for the opti warriors to step up....and take on one of these bets...because honestly opti has a great chance of winning...i think an opti would have crushed me ego for example...you guys totally lost by chicken hearting out...

Hats off to physics for coming over here and making such an offer. Its about time someone with cajones showed up on this group. Lets inject some excitement and some cash into this event....and see if physics is for real.

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 8:50 PM, Liveforphysics <livefor...@gmail.com> wrote:

[chessmonster]

Oh and i just wanted to emphasize one thing physics mentioned.

He is at this moment building a 100v 65 amp bmx bike to show up to another hill climb event....that is 65,000 watts.

Tread carefully guys...tread very carefully. 

[chessmonster]

Woops my mistake...6,500 watts....pftttt  come on guys...we can take this guy.

[USV]

old tech brushed motor + BMX hardtail bikey = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y13SDT5YM5k
: )

>  shopping_trailer.jpg
> 215KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[chessmonster]

Oh yeah usv?

Did you hear about  young man physics vs the opti gang out on the golf course...i got it on video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/LeatherTongue#p/a/u/0/hSdIaEDT1Hw

[chessmonster]

Maybe this link works better:

http://youtu.be/hSdIaEDT1Hw

[Nimbuzz]

What idiot punks!! They had a good joke going and got one ball in the
hole and shoulda bailed then. Instead they kept going after another
ball and even when the old guy obviously threatened to hit the car
they didn't bail. Then they whine like little babies when he does =
TOTAL whiners!!! With that mental capacity they should be easy to
beat--their ride will over heat! Water cooled--haha. Eric is very
entertaining.

On May 8, 11:27 am, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe this link works better:
>
> http://youtu.be/hSdIaEDT1Hw
>

> On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 11:26 AM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Oh yeah usv?
>
> > Did you hear about  young man physics vs the opti gang out on the golf
> > course...i got it on video:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/user/LeatherTongue#p/a/u/0/hSdIaEDT1Hw
>
> > <http://www.youtube.com/user/LeatherTongue#p/a/u/0/hSdIaEDT1Hw>

[chessmonster]

Nimbuzz!! You dirty trader! Finally you show your face again from the shadows where you were hiding...probably in shame.

You have a lot of nerve reappearing here after you have incited  the wrath of an entire electric riot  of ES drones ...all on their way to the pikes mountain to claim Opti's throne!

Such a fire you started over there...250 posts...3000 reads and counting...and did you hear physics joined the optigroups?

[Nimbuzz]

Dearest Uncle Eric, Some of us have lives and not all day to respond
to your cute/silly little rants. Yes I did create great excitement on
one of the most robust high energy threads over at ES--That was the
whole idea (after the first goal to murder the competition that you
busted me for) If any ES guys actually get to CO many of us will be
watching with great interest as we are true ebike enthusiasts who want
to see state of the art technology compared. Children are often led to
believe that the sole purpose of a race is to identify a winner--you
apparently never left that perspective behind. Most, however, grow to
understand that there is much fun and usefulness played out in
competition as many aspects and issues of the competitors are
compared. There are some here and on ES that actually hope to improve
the world by developing a realistic alternative to traditional
automotive transport. This will require a highly refined technology.
An important part of this development will be to pit the top players
side by side in competitive demonstrations of efficiency and speed as
automobiles have been doing for over a hundred years. You can join the
club or continue to flub bub.

If this type of conversation is over your head let me know and I'll
break it down into simpler terms for you. I'd also like to be
considered for the position of being your manager--you could do comic
books with these great images; "You have a lot of nerve reappearing

here after you have incited  the wrath of an entire electric riot of

ES drones..." This is great stuff we could make some buck$ from it!!

> ...
>
> read more »

[Liveforphysics]

No, 650amps at 100v. It is 65kW.

6,500w would make it a child's bike, and I struggle to find interest
in such low powered things.

On May 8, 8:58 am, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Woops my mistake...6,500 watts....pftttt  come on guys...we can take this
> guy.
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 8:56 AM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Oh and i just wanted to emphasize one thing physics mentioned.
>
> > He is at this moment building a 100v 65 amp bmx bike to show up to another
> > hill climb event....that is 65,000 watts.
>
> > Tread carefully guys...tread very carefully.
>

[Ken Cline]

Eric,

This is an Optibike group. We discuss Optibikes and other human electric hybrid bicycles, not motorcycles. We have explained this to you several times. I'm sure a discussion of LFP's 65kW motorbike would be of interest to some of the readers of the group, but it does not belong here as it is in a different class of vehicles. The frequency and persistence of your off topic intrusions has become disruptive.

You have admitted that you are "playing with" us. It is time to stop trolling and either keep your contributions within the character of this group or go back to ES as you promised you would on April 21. If you cannot get in line, I believe we should consider moderating the group.

Seriously yours,

Ken

[Nimbuzz]

If a high powered hub ebike or two does manage to beat the Opti to the
top there are other issues to be considered;

--At the end of the race I think it likely that the hub motors and
packs will be too hot to touch for a long time after the finish. This
means the motor will be stressed with it's life shortened.

--The pack will be expensive and most likely be sacrificial = close to
the end of it's useful life after such a high temperature high draw
event.

--The Opti pack (and motor) on the other hand will be merely warm and
ready to live out it's three year warranty.

--If the Opti does happen to come in behind such an experimental it
may, very well still retain the title of the fastest production ebike.
The Fighters & Bombers may provide interesting 'Production Bike'
competition but again their packs will probably be at least half
through their useful life by the end of the race.

So, bring on the competition and let's all enjoy observing the various
outcomes and learning how to build better ebikes.

[Jim_Kirk]

Ken,
    I've just given up on this thread but hopefully not the group.

-Jim

[remf]

I prefer to take another view. I think it's very illustrative that it takes a bike like LFP's to compete with or maybe even beat the Opti at Pikes...a highly modified hub running at 116V!!!

Censorship is not the answer here. There is a simple solution if you don't like what's being posted...don't read it & don't reply. Optibike obviously don't take offense to the content of the thread, in fact I think they'd be quite amused by the type of machine it would take to compete with their new beast.

[Ken Cline]

On 8 May 2011, at 6:29 PM, remf wrote:

> I prefer to take another view. I think it's very illustrative that it takes a bike like LFP's to compete with or maybe even beat the Opti at Pikes...a highly modified hub running at 116V!!!

This is beyond silly. 65 kW is 87 horsepower. Subtract 10-20% to get 70-78 HP output power. That is more than many motorcycle, and close to the 82HP of my first car. It is ludicrous to suggest that this would be the only way to beat Opti using a hub motor.

I don't mind talking about what might beat Optibike up Pike's Peak - I calculated that a pair of Crystalyte 5305 hub motors on laced to 20" rims would do the trick, but it would need likely need double Opti power levels (1.5-2kW total) to maintain enough speed for the motors to operate efficiently. I mentioned this in the Endless Sphere thread - check out that thread if you are interested in the technical side of all this and a variety of opinions regarding what would be required in a hub motor based bike.

> Censorship is not the answer here. There is a simple solution if you don't like what's being posted...don't read it & don't reply.

Asking people to find appropriate groups for their topics is not even close to censorship. But unfettered "free speech" often leads to an internet tragedy of the commons, where the many of the most valuable contributors shut up and eventually leave.

In case you are unaware, Eric has started to cross post his rants to EndlessSphere in an apparent attempt to get ES participants to join his attempt to make noise in our usually quiet group. I wouldn't mind if there were a real discussion, but he is inventing dissent where it does not exist. Of course, everyone is welcome to participate as long as the discussion is honestly Optibike related.

> Optibike obviously don't take offense to the content of the thread, in fact I think they'd be quite amused by the type of machine it would take to compete with their new beast.

That is far from obvious to me.

Sure, the folks at Optibike have enough class to know that whining in the forums would look bad, but I do not take that to me they like what they see. As a matter of fact I was offered the job of moderator a while ago. Unlike our friend Eric, I was not quick to desire the position. I should make it clear that neither Optibike nor I want to prevent any legitimate messages from being posted. Opinions are welcome. Disruptive behavior is not.

[chessmonster]

This is totally ridiculous.

#1 the 60kw machine physics mentioned is for another race....a much shorter race i am organizing in san francisco with an "unlimited class" IT is clear to everyone at this point for an ebike race to be fair it must have classes...i will also have a under $1500 class and a under 2000 watt class and a stock ebike class (which optibike will be a favorite)...Physics  is proposing to bring  a hub motor to pikes on a separate bike, and not only complete the climb but is looking for "incentive" to beat the opti record by half. I dont think physics would find it interesting to bring a mid drive like the opti race....

#2 I am not physics...nor should i be blamed for him mentioning a 60kw machine on the opti google groups. Ken why dont you push to ban physics...the ES rock star...and get yourself banned at es yourself. Physics is just stating facts....and looking for a gentlemans bet.

#3 I said seriously someone should take physics up and make a bet with him..i think its a sound bet. In fact i was thinking about accepting it myself before getting attacked by Mad Science Ken.

#4 Talk about cross posting..ken is posting as  mad scientist on ES....so are a bunch of others from here posting on ES there rants from here. Lots of people are cross posting so dont get hpycritcal. .  Most seem to believe that pikes is a race...ken is from the school that is a ride and fast bikes should not be allowed.  He has a differing view that he is pushing as a fact...when in fact most people feel pikes is a race. Nimbuzz issued a challenge to ES  to see if anyone could beat the opti. Now who is whining? I warned all this would come down and you should keep that race down low...this year it will be epic and it will be interesting who will win.

Its ridiculous that you guys wanted to pump this race and now its pumped and now your whining that real competition is just threatening to show up.

By the way stealth is a hub motor and stealth is claiming they finished pikes with no problem...so that means other crystallite hub motors will be able to finish as welll. Crystallite in case you havent heard is the most common hub motor in the US right now..so expect plenty of them...

Ken you are very bitter for i dont know what reason.  You seem like a very angry person. Its a good thing opt didnt make you a moderator...physics and i are two of the best things to happen to this group in a while in case you havent noticed.

Remember i am a former opti owner myself...and wrote one of the most thorough reviews of the machine ever written...you can read it on ES...if you don't get yourself banned with all this foolishness.

[USV]

i highly doubt the Stealth Batteries will loose half their useful life
after a run up Pikes Peak.

the chemistry they use is LiFePO4...read the data from these
manufacturers, not B.S. http://www.a123systems.com/ http://www.caleb-battery.com/

high power density means they can endure continuous high amp discharge
& heating... please show me a chart from Opti's manufacturer for their
LiCo cells

i am interested in seeing a LiCo battery that is as power dense & has
the longevity of LiFePO4...they may beat LiFePO4 in energy density but
how
much of that energy density is usable at a continuous high amp
discharge rate?

i personally use a generic made aftermarket 20Ah 76.8V LiFePO4 pack to
run my Opti USV ...

a few interesting numbers from my over 930 miles logged on the USV at
76.8V (this is a used pack that i have used to power other bikes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZhmj3gREg&
while going uphill, the power drawn from the battery is continuous at
1500 to 2100+ watts & at times up to a peak of over 3400 watts...
that is power density in action...the batteries are still giving me
over 14Ah of usable power before cutting out...if i use it
conservatively &
pulse the throttle, it is still giving me up to 15 +Ah of usable power
per Cycle Analyst.

i will soon test a Nano LiCo LiPO pack & see how they fair...i
seriously doubt they will last as long as the LiFePO4 chemisty.

yes, i agree bring on the competition...more the merrier : )

> > > Tread carefully guys...tread very carefully.- Hide quoted text -

[Ken Cline]

On 8 May 2011, at 10:51 PM, USV wrote:

> high power density means [LiFePO4 cells] can endure continuous high amp discharge

> & heating... please show me a chart from Opti's manufacturer for their
> LiCo cells
>
> i am interested in seeing a LiCo battery that is as power dense & has
> the longevity of LiFePO4...they may beat LiFePO4 in energy density but
> how
> much of that energy density is usable at a continuous high amp
> discharge rate?

A point of clarification: Optibike's battery works well at Optibike power levels, justifying Opti's 3 year/30,000 mile warranty. Higher power density is needed for batteries that are discharged at a rate greater than 1C (i.e. in less than an hour).

[USV]

> --At the end of the race I think it likely that the hub motors and
> packs will be too hot to touch for a long time after the finish. This
> means the motor will be stressed with it's life shortened.


> --The pack will be expensive and most likely be sacrificial = close to

Nimbuzz wrote:
> the end of it's useful life after such a high temperature high draw
> event.


> --The Opti pack (and motor) on the other hand will be merely warm and
> ready to live out it's three year warranty.


> --If the Opti does happen to come in behind such an experimental it
> may, very well still retain the title of the fastest production ebike.
> The Fighters & Bombers may provide interesting 'Production Bike'
> competition but again their packs will probably be at least half
> through their useful life by the end of the race.

also need to clarify...Opti is not the fastest production e-bike,
it's one of the most energy efficient for steep continuous climbs due
to a mid-drive & gearing...

the Stealth bikes are great purpose built e-bikes & gives what alot of
e-bikers want...more power/speed with the ability to be taken off-
road...there are advantages/disadvantages with a hub motor drive...

just take a hint & look at the writing on the wall...alot of e-bikers
want more power/speed....2 of your loyal customers have already found
how fun it is to ride a higher power e-bike...

i hope Opti will finally see that it's time to built a bike that
requires High power density batteries...ie: a high power off-road
model....i hope it will not be cost prohibitive to tool up for such a
model.

it would be a shame because a high power Opti is a fun ride.

[Bike_On]

USV,

Thanks for the comments and taking the lead in a modified, high
voltage Opti.

A couple comments.
1. It is no secret, but Jim Turner had a 26Ahr battery in his Opti
last year. It was a test sample that is NOW offered to the public.
Nothing fancy of complicated, just more Lithium for the job. Craig
had the bike on Demo tour last spring and told me it was 26ahrs.

2. Opti IS efficient and conservative. They run at 1C.
36V*23A~850W. However, they DO stress the battery with the boost mode
operation. I have seen 60-70 A pk during boost.

3. A higher powered Opti....I suggest one makes their own and assumes
the risk.

4. LifePO4 - I agree is better for 20A+ operation. I have run the
snot out of my 20ahr rated Opti pack for the past 2-3 years, and I
can't imagine it running at higher power.
** Notice, notice, again... aquisition of 20ahr, A123 prismatic pack
is imminent this week. Testing on an Optibike 850 will soon begin.
Current battery is operating mid range between 35-36V. New battery
should be 41V+ under load (~17% gain), and I expect average commute
speeds to bump up from 21-22mph to 25-26mph.

5. What is the best way to improve Opti performance? (Speed, power,
torque) One can bump the voltage (run 40-48V) OR use a bigger, more
power dense battery and bump the current? (run up to 30A continuous)

> > A point of clarification:  Optibike's battery works well at Optibike power levels, justifying Opti's 3 year/30,000 mile warranty.  Higher power density is needed for batteries that are discharged at a rate greater than 1C (i.e. in less than an hour).- Hide quoted text -

[chessmonster]

As much as you guys loath  me i think atleast now my point has been strongly made and you are starting to see the light. 

The truth sometimes hurts...and sometimes it is an adrenaline rush.

A higher voltage, higher power opti is at this point necessary. Not  only tto be competitive for pikes but to remain competitive in the market. Pikes is very symbolic of the problem.

I hope i at least get credit for arguing this point fervently  from the very beginning despite unbelievable resistance from the same group who now is starting to get it.

I think at this point an apology and a thank you is due from guys like Mad Science Ken..who has admitted to me in private email and on ES as madscientist  that his purpose all along is to sponsor a high power bike to beat opti's record at pikes. and definately has a hidden agenda on this group as a "opti loyalist" in disguise.  This is the truth and i can prove this. Ken is a rat. Another dirty dog that guy mad science ken. Atleast nimbuzz had opti's back when he tried to purposely get the es'ers to attend the june gasser event and unintentionally set the ES gang on Opti...but mad science ken....

Ken from the get go tried to silence me on building a more powerful opti..

Be careful Jim Turner...there are some rats in the bushes who plan to pass you by if you dont pick up the pace...and unleash the power the opti is capable of...now is the time.

Remember the chessmonster motos: Double the power, sale double the number of bikes and...you have already crossed the line...no need in pussyfooting.....and this is open war with the chinese...the new crytstallite chinese invasion are on the boats...the time to act is right now. These were all chessmonster truths...and i think for one i am due a little credit....a free opti...or even moderator status...so  i can put the vices down on Mad Science Ken. 

Make me a moderator opti leadership...and i will put a stop to all this rattery...

[BoboboB]

Ahhh! Another beautiful ride to work this morning, Used Econ mode
as I wanted to get a little more exercise. The 800Li almost has to
much power for my daily commute.

Not of these alternative high powered monsters will be a commercial
success cause there arn't enouth of you speed wacko's arount to buy
them. I can't imagine horseing a 90+ lb monster around for this
purpose, when the OPTI will do as well.

The MBB and gearing (9sp or rohloff) is the only way to maintain the
ride experiance that I and many others are looking for.

The few dozen power fanatics are not enough for a company to stay in
business, and most mfg are over rating their porduct so much that it
is already diluting the market.

Not sure what my point is but what the heck it is a sensible as
everything going on in this threar.

BobO

[USV]

i can see a pattern, older customers prefer lower power, tame bikes &
do not use the suspension in conditions it was designed for
( unfortunely they are the ones that can afford to purchase them, so
marketing has to water down their design & offer a yawwwwwwn model
with a big fat seat, an upright riding position, heavy internal rear
gear, funcky but usable dual halogen headlights......younger riders
prefer higher power, cool, fun bikes that are the exact
opposite.....hmmmm catch 22....

[chessmonster]

Thus the chessmonster theorum... market to the younger guys and everyone will follow....it's all coming full circle!

The older guys can always choose to ride in econo mode...let the riders decide how fast they ride!

Dont let the limits of the bike dictate!

[Elect Bike]

I really want a fast reliable bike. Having a technical problem would
be a drag with a bike sold via Internet. That being said, nothing is
wrong with striving for a faster, lighter, longer range, reliable
bikes.
Let's not get in the way if progress, let's encourage it. Think of the
trickle down technology that comes from the Indy 500 or the Space Race
to the moon. I want to buy the best bike out there and I'm willing to
pay.

[Craig]

From my experience with math, the sample size required to infer a
"pattern" is important.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size

Unless, of course, its a "panel of experts" on Fox News.

Craig

[USV]

Bike_On

i agree, adding Ahrs is a good start = lower C (Amp) discharge rate
for the pack...
but the Chemistry & the need to warranty the batteries for 3 years
will limit the
ability to switch to a higher power controller...

the gold anodized motor with harden steel gears can take the higher
rpms at 76.8 V...
but if pushed continuously at high amps, the small motor will not fair
well...

> 5. What is the best way to improve Opti performance? (Speed, power,
> torque) One can bump the voltage (run 40-48V) OR use a bigger, more
> power dense battery and bump the current? (run up to 30A continuous)

all of the above...speed = volts, torque = amps, horsepower = volts/
amps
your stock controller will not let you run the motor continuously
(which is a good & bad thing)...
i will be curious to see what type of performance you can
achieve with simply a higher power battery upgrade.

a good thing: it will protect you from melting the tiny motor,
just thrist the throttle & go in any gear & the controller
automatically
controls the current to the motor to keep it running optimally and cut
power to the motor if overloaded in the wrong gear.

a bad thing: you may not see the performance gain you are expecting.

on a positive note: your battery choice does provide an important
benefit...
it will keep going, going & going....& going....
if your battery builder provides a quality BMS.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Elect Bike]

You heard it everyone, "sample sizes". Now its time to vote. Yes for
faster bike and no for keep the status quo.
I'm voting yes for faster bikes and progress.
It appears optibike is listening so now's a good time to vote. we can
take a head count later : )

[lowco2]

Actually, I interpreted that differently.
Optibike's been selling say 200-300 bikes/year (I'm guessing) for, say
4 years, is 800-1200 bikes.
A few people on this forum commenting = very small sample size,
probably not statistically valid.
I think the phrase that works is "show me the money!"
--J

[Ken Cline]

On 9 May 2011, at 11:23 AM, chessmonster wrote:

> As much as you guys loath me i think atleast now my point has been strongly made and you are starting to see the light.

There has been no change in opinions. We discussed higher powered ebikes before you joined the group, and will continue when you are gone. I can't recall a single instance of someone objecting to the idea of more power if it came for free (and could be switched off to meet legal requirements when necessary).

The truth is that you can't simply add power without increasing weight and cutting efficiency at original power levels. When you do that, you end up with a vehicle that is more motor bike and less human electric hybrid: Something Opti has said they are not interested in pursuing. Can you understand that there might be real technical obstacles? That my objection is not about trying to force people to ride slowly? Are you willing to "see the light"?

The other difference between us is that I am a bicyclist. You mentioned that you don't really like riding bicycles. Opti's goal is to build a great human/electric hybrid bicycle, and I my estimation they have done so, but I fully understand how a human/electric hybrid might fail to satisfy someone looking for a motorcycle.

> I think at this point an apology and a thank you is due from guys like Mad Science Ken..who has admitted to me in private email and on ES as madscientist that his purpose all along is to sponsor a high power bike to beat opti's record at pikes. and definately has a hidden agenda on this group as a "opti loyalist" in disguise. This is the truth and i can prove this. Ken is a rat. Another dirty dog that guy mad science ken. Atleast nimbuzz had opti's back when he tried to purposely get the es'ers to attend the june gasser event and unintentionally set the ES gang on Opti...but mad science ken....

Asking for an apology and then calling me names and mischaracterizing the information I sent is beneath you, but I will respond with a few corrections of your misconceptions:

There are no "opti loyalists" here. Based on their comments, I believe the active participants here support all sorts of electric cycling.

There is no "high power ebike", at least in sense of higher than optibike power levels. Read all about it at EndlessSphere if you care to - both Josh and Ron (the guy behind the motor) have posted all about it. On thread it called "750W Chain Puller" or something similar.

There is no hidden agenda. My support for Josh's entry in the Pikes Peak ride is no secret, and is certainly not meant to undermine Optibike. Friendly competition improves products, and if I have any goal here it is to promote the development of even better and more affordable ebikes.

Having been called a "rat", a "dirty dog", and mischaracterized with accusations such as those above, I will take the high ground and forgive your excesses as rhetorical flair, not personal insult. I will, however, remind you that you have made your point. It is time to move on.

[Bike_On]

USV,

Yes, I am concerned of a weird intraction between the stock controller
and the new battery with a small bump in voltage. The motor and my
cadence will go up, which is good for speed and my power output, so
long as my legs get in better spin shape. Yes I am clipped in.

Back when the Opti battery was new, I got 24-25mph averages on mixed
road surfaces and working oderate-high output. Bucking the air
reistance, and hard to go faster, but a rock solid 41V????

I upgraded to a 50T front ring, 11 rear in 9th, which tops out, even
now at 34mph down a 3% grade, tucked, no pedalling. Up 17% =>
39.8mph. Flats should cruise at 33-34mph with some effort.

My vote, should Opti up the performance? I'd say no, but put in the
hooks so we can easily tweek and upgrade at our own risk. WHat if we
could change the output current limits in the firmware?? Hummm.

The bike is so rpm driven to operate at 85-90rpm, which is above
casual, IMO. Therefore, you realy need eco to feel your legs, cut the
air noise and enjoy the ride. Fast mode is for getting up the hills
and ripping it down the road. It is too fast for most bike paths,
sidewalks and neighborhoods with traffic/kids. But..having the option
and using the choice to hold back is inviting and a 1000W lable is a
selling benchmark. I figure they will do what is best for business
at the right time. Remember, these guys ARE the young crowd and know
bikes, and JT is a triathlete, inventor, engineer who knows what it is
to perform.

Cheesemonster: You really cut the fromage asking for a written,
backbending apology and moderator HQ post. If you had kept your
Optibike, we could give you the benefit of the doubt. But your 3 week
trial riding does not qualify your opinion for diddlysquat. You did
not pay your dues. Still, you are commended for the effort, reviews,
putting up the cash and sparking the ES pike-wars yet TBD.

DR

[USV]

> There has been no change in opinions. We discussed higher powered ebikes before you joined the group, and will continue when you are gone. I can't recall a single instance of someone objecting to the idea of more power if it came for free (and could be switched off to meet legal requirements when necessary).

i just hope Optibike can see the value in offering a completely
different model...
just look at the prototypes being produced in Europe,
Opti doesn't have to jump in head 1st & offer a model...
make a prototype & see who will sign-up, sort of like Brammo & their
Empulse ; )

> The truth is that you can't simply add power without increasing weight and cutting efficiency at original power levels. When you do that, you end up with a vehicle that is more motor bike and less human electric hybrid: Something Opti has said they are not interested in pursuing. Can you understand that there might be real technical obstacles? That my objection is not about trying to force people to ride slowly? Are you willing to "see the light"?

technical obstacles = $$$$ ....how much would it cost to tool up for
a
new model with a completely different frame design to house more
batteries that is not fully enclosed in the frame to enable
channeling
of air throught the pack for increased power output...

a heat sinked controller that enables air flow

a slightly larger motor that will
increase power without increasing weight inordinately

& pedal gearing that wil enable one
to pedal & add some power to the wheels, which would enable one to
exercise &
keep their heart rate up, even at 50mph...(i have tested such a set up
with the Schlumpf HS drive on a hub drive) ...
now a Schlumpf or V-boxx drive with a freewheeling jackshaft mid-
drive would definitely do the trick for the ultimate higher power
pedal hybrid efficient machine that is better than any motorcycle or
bicycle...
for all the natural high junkies out there...adrenaline from downhill
like speeds / endorphines from physical exertion...an addictive
combination : )

Bike_On

if u take into account wind resistance, ur expected increase in
performance will be a real drag in the real world : (

will still be cool, 1-2mph is still faster...mores cooler air flowing
through the hair : )

with my set- up, im actually going to do the opposite & lower the
gearing to increase torque for off-roading...it's way over geared at
76.8V to do any serious near 100% grade climbs...which are present at
my local off-road trails.
will soon go to a 40T front & a 29'er cassette in back at 12-36T...i
guess they already know what mi Opti over volting is ; )

[Liveforphysics]

The packs I run are called Nano-Techs. They are 5Ah cells. They are
rated for 45C continous discharge, and 90C burst (10sec) discharge.

In testing, they handled 100C (500amps!) continous, and were burst
discharged to an amazing 200C (800amps!)

In 8p configuration, (40Ah), drawing 500amps continuously doesn't even
get the cells 5degF over ambient in an insulated battery box.

The cell impedance is 0.8mOhm per cell.

Cell heating is an absolute non-concern in a situation like this.


Also, I wouldn't bring my monster Agni powered lightweight BMX pedal
bike to this, its a 1-off build just for hillclimb.

I would bring a bicycle, fitted with an off-the-shelf bicycle hubmotor
that has cooling provisions done to make it suited for this long
gentle climb, and win it. Not counting the battery, the entire bike
would have less than $500 into it.

[chessmonster]

Under $500??

Man physics is really working hard to get me moderated.

Mad Science Ken is going to have an aneurysm over this one..

[Nimbuzz]

lfp--what brand of battery is that?

[USV]

>In 8p configuration, (40Ah), drawing 500amps continuously doesn't even
>get the cells 5degF over ambient in an insulated battery box.

500 amps or 12-13 C continuously that would give u a run time of
about
4 to 5 mins for a 40Ah "new" battery...
what would happen at the same discharge rate with an aging battery
with lots of charge/discharge cycles under it's belt?
would they still perform with little to no heating?

just a rhetorical question...i will answer that for myself...
from all the techical data i've seen for LiCo polymer packs
it will be interesting to see how long these packs will actually
last in real world conditions. 500 < or > cycles????

Nimbuzz,

i believe he is refering to these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14615

it seems Brammo will also be using this chemistry on their Empulse &
extended range Enertia which will be 88.8 V nominal ....3.7 V per
cell...a 24S pack.

> > > > > Tread carefully guys...tread very carefully.- Hide quoted text -

[remf]

Turnigy Nano-Tech?

[chessmonster]

yep Turnigy Nano-Tech...off the shelf packs.

See physics can be beat.

[chessmonster]

Great physics nano-tech demonstration here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKRqaNPIBE&feature=player_embedded

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 4:24 PM, remf <opti...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Liveforphysics]

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14616

That's one of my current favorite cells. For work (I'm a battery
system design engineer), I had the pleasure of visiting the factory in
Shenzhen China, and even got to have tea with the chemist who
developed the formula/process used in it's mfg.
Very rock-solid cells in all performance attributes, very sketchy in
regards to something you would want to use in an OEM application (at
least until relatively primitive BMS technology improves).

Perfect for racing/performance application though. It's a difficult
to describe pleasure for a battery engineer to deliver a proto-type
pack that the end user calls to say the temp sensors aren't working
(because they just stay ambient temp), and that the pack sags only
1-2v for them under >500amp loads.

Here is a little video I made of testing a little 3s4Ah nano-tech pack
that slips in your pocket, it's about the size of my smart-phone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKRqaNPIBE



Also, ChessMonster- I would rather not have anyone speak for me in
any situation. I'm about 5 notches more laid back than it seems you
make me out to be (which I know you're doing just for fun).

Also, I like the concept of the optibike, it's something I could see
myself building if I had to make a bike for public consumption (builds
I do for myself are thrown together basket-case bikes that would NOT
be safe for the public, or anyone).

I personally would do a lot more motor and battery than it comes with
(and i NEVER have found pedal chains hold up to more than 3-4hp for
long), but I understand for weight/cost reasons a compromise needs to
be made somewhere on a production product. Getting away from the
direct-drive hub has lots of advantages, power/torque/cooling/weight
etc. It's only downside is noise, complexity, and more pieces that
can fail. I personally always prefer a non-hub-drive setup like the
optibike. When you see me using a hub, it's because I was lazy and/or
pressed for time (or the build had silent operation as a high value
attribute.)


I've got a background in racing from dirtbikes to shifter kart to
autocross to drifting to dirtbikes (again) then to superbikes, to drag
racing (because child support impacted my budget), and now getting
into grassroots electric bicycle and motorcycle racing for fun (taking
a pay-cut as a datacenter battery/cooling engineer for Microsoft to
work in the LEV battery design industry) as a nice change of pace.

I'm just a relaxed laid back guy who enjoys a good racing challenge
against good competition, and would love to go head-to-head with the
optibike or anyone up to the top of the peak. It will require a
little incentive to get me to spend the effort though. :)

Best Wishes,
-Luke

On May 9, 4:03 pm, Nimbuzz <mary...@aol.com> wrote:

[remf]

So Luke, what would it take to entice you to Pikes? Something tells me a little more than chessmonster's keg of beer? A hot all female pit crew maybe? A wager that you will/won't make it? Or a straight out appearance fee, regardless of results :? I totally understand, it costs a fair bit to get the show on the road, I'm just not too sure who'll put their hand up.

[ElectricDirt]

I actually envy LiveforPhysics. I wish I had that kind of money and
freedom to build all those very very cool projects, experiments. Any
way keep building and burning things up for the sake of moving
forward.

On May 9, 8:14 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So Luke, what would it take to entice you to Pikes? Something tells me a little more than chessmonster's keg of beer? A hot all female pit crew maybe?  A wager that you will/won't make it? Or a straight out appearance fee, regardless of results :? I totally understand, it costs a fair bit to get the show on the road, I'm just not too sure who'll put their hand up.
>

[remf]

Absolutely! Luke also provides a counterpoint...i.e. what it takes to level the field when going head to head with an Opti. Bravo man, I'd really like to see it...in fact I'd be willing to kick in for some of that plasma goodness :)

Have you thought about wearing a Turnigy t-shirt, etc and hitting them up for exposure money:?

[Bike_On]

It looks like LFP appreciates the Optibike design. As a reward, I
suggest Optibike give him a beater prototype and allow him to mod it
up! Maybe he and Jim could sit down and talk some shop.

LFP- I looked into the Turnigy nanos, but went with the nano life
chemistry - too chicken on the safety. The only drawback I see is the
weight. Question: will the LIFEPO batteries really give 4-5x the life
of the nano-poly? I wonder if age itself will shorten the cycles and
the return is not what is promised. I mean, 2000 cycles is a LOT of
battery charging, plugging, unlpugging, riding, etc.

ABout hub designs and the draw of the silence and ease, i do agree it
appeals to our lesser man to squander ahrs, lay on the throttle and
pretend to pedal a bike. A bike with a hub, and lithium in the tub,
a man can get some nice cruising transportation...but not the most
efficient or versatile.

On May 9, 11:46 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Absolutely! Luke also provides a counterpoint...i.e. what it takes to level the field when going head to head with an Opti. Bravo man, I'd really like to see it...in fact I'd be willing to kick in for some of that plasma goodness :)
>
> Have you thought about wearing a Turnigy t-shirt, etc and hitting them up for exposure money:?
>

[Bike_On]

USV,

Yes, I am going up the curve to find the optimum voltage level and you
are coming back down with gear reduction.

[Liveforphysics]

Internal resistance (and hence heating) decreases for the first
45cycles or so, as the formation charge is better developed.
They actually do not have a 3.7v nominal voltage, it's between
3.83-3.88 depending on temperature. It's a lithium cobalt dioxide
based chemistry, but not identical. It's about 95% empty when it
reaches 3.6v unlike standard LiCoO2 chemistries that are sitting
around 35-40% SOC at 3.6v.

Running the most shallow cycle that 5Ah is still extractable (they do
around 5.6Ah with a 100% DOD) with, 4.15HVC to 3.65LVC, they do around
2,500 cycles (greatly depending on various variables etc)

Also, FYI, as far as I'm aware, currently the highest cycle lithium
chemistry (that has useful energy/power density) happens to be a
LiCoO2 base now, with LG's PHEV cells having a cycle life of 80,000
60% cycles and 40,000 80% cycles.

In other words, I throw these on the cycler doing 10C charge and 25C
discharge (because sadly that's the limitation of the machine's
discharge current), and they happily do 4-digit cycle numbers and stay
cool, with no break in between cycle, and keep in mind, 10C charge
means 6minutes to charge! Pretty damn impressive stuff. It's a shame
it's safety makes it impractical for consumer goods.

On May 9, 4:24 pm, USV <1denn...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >In 8p configuration, (40Ah), drawing 500amps continuously doesn't even
> >get the cells 5degF over ambient in an insulated battery box.
>
> 500 amps or 12-13 C continuously that would give u a run time of
> about
> 4 to 5 mins for a 40Ah "new" battery...
> what would happen at the same discharge rate with an aging battery
> with lots of charge/discharge cycles under it's belt?
> would they still perform with little to no heating?
>
> just a rhetorical question...i will answer that for myself...
> from all the techical data i've seen for LiCo polymer packs
> it will be interesting to see how long these packs will actually
> last in real world conditions. 500 < or > cycles????
>
> Nimbuzz,
>

> i believe he is refering to thesehttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14615

[Liveforphysics]

I appreciate the kind words guys, and I'm flattered that a couple of
you seem to get a kick from some of my projects.

I would wear a HobbyKing shirt just to support Anthony, because I like
him and we get along fantastic and were instantly friends, but I would
never try to ask him for money or something for advertising, it just
wouldn't feel right, and I know he operates HobbyKing at a loss, and
it's a site myself and others have really enjoyed, so it would feel
good to pay something back.


All I would want as incentive to enter, is to have my logistics
expenses covered IF and ONLY IF I win (because I'm quite confident it
won't be a problem). I'm actually a very non-money-motivated
person, but I can see if I spend a few grand to do this event, it's
directly going to impact the timelines for other projects and goals
I've got running that I've made previous commitments towards.

On May 9, 8:46 pm, remf <optibi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Absolutely! Luke also provides a counterpoint...i.e. what it takes to level the field when going head to head with an Opti. Bravo man, I'd really like to see it...in fact I'd be willing to kick in for some of that plasma goodness :)
>
> Have you thought about wearing a Turnigy t-shirt, etc and hitting them up for exposure money:?
>

[chessmonster]

Yeah things with go berserk on these forums if Jim Turner approached Physics with a deal like " I will offer you $20,000 if you can finish in half the time of the fastest opti....on an opti"....and send him a stock opti one month before the race.

Physics would probably take the 20k (not speaking for him i am just guessing) and then take the opti...and do a 500 dollar hub job on the front (awd)....and a nano-tech battery under the hood and in his backpack.

And opti would win the race...and set a new pikes record...and fight off all sneak attackers.

Just go to the mountain, take the prize, and fly  back out...obama style.

[chessmonster]

Honestly a lot of them don't understand.

Right now i think there is this  false sense of security revolving around lipo that a lot of ebikers have...and just right now the ebikers are starting to get complacent. 

It amazes me that Opti is the only commercial company i know of that has offered Lipo (lico in fact) in an electric bike (physics please correct me if i am wrong)....

I have said before and i will say again hats off to them for pulling this off...another opti milestone.

I suspect they are able to do it by putting real thought into construction of the packs (they assemble the packs in the US to military specs) and they must have a great bms...also they enclose the batteries in a monocoque frame.

My guess is jim turner and company have probably tested the possibilities of lipo fires and have decided that the frame can contain it....just a guess...but is a feat to sell lico to the public and not be worried about your ass. Its almost a contradiction to me to sale a lipo product and then be worried about top speed.

Someone  crashing on a high speed bike is child's play compared to burning down a house or apartment building etc in a lipo fire...people get mad about losing everything they own...and mommas are like bears when they lose their babies etc...

Opti deserves serious credit for designing an obviously safe product using the exciting chemistry of lico.

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 8:52 AM, USV <1den...@verizon.net> wrote:

>It's a shame
> it's safety makes it impractical for consumer goods.

here here an honest answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUmfpTxUjNg
hydrogen & oxygen spewing on a wooden workbench in a garge or on a
table in a house is not a goood thing.
rc hobbyist understands this & i hope all e-bikers understands
what they are dealing with before purchasing these batteries to power
their bikes.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[USV]

>It's a shame
> it's safety makes it impractical for consumer goods.

hear, hear an honest answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUmfpTxUjNg

hydrogen & oxygen spewing on a wooden workbench in a garge or on a
table in a house is not a goood thing.

rc hobbyists understand this & i hope all e-bikers understand

what they are dealing with before purchasing these batteries to power
their bikes.

On May 9, 2:55 pm, Liveforphysics <liveforphys...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ken Cline]

On 10 May 2011, at 10:12 AM, chessmonster wrote:

> It amazes me that Opti is the only commercial company i know of that has offered Lipo (lico in fact) in an electric bike (physics please correct me if i am wrong)....

I agree that Opti continues to do an outstanding job with their batteries, but they don't use lithium polymer.

Lithium polymer (aka li-poly, lipo) batteries are packaged in soft pouches. They shrink and swell with use and are notoriously susceptible to damage. They are a great choice for high performance RC aircraft where high power to weight ratios are essential and where battery failure should not result in bodily injury when proper procedures are followed.

Opti continues to use cylindrical (18650?) lithum cobalt (LiCO) cells, which have several built in protection features. The tested li-poly at onetime, but, as I recall, found the failure rate was too high.

[Liveforphysics]

Round cells for EVs are dead mate.
They are sometimes still used in packs because they have a legacy
design that suits the vehicles needs, or when its extremely critical
to exploit economies of scale to get the absolute cheapest $/wh (or
both, ala Tesla).

Pouch LiPo (whether LiCo, LiFePO4, LiMnO4, LiNiMnCoO2, LiTiO etc)
cells are what you find in every pack design that was started in the
last 2 years ( GM Volt, Nissan leaf, KTM, Mission, Brammo, Volvo,
Hyundai, etc etc

The highest cycle life lithium cells out there are Lipo. The highest
safety lithium cells are Lipo. The highest power density cells are
Lipo. The highest energy density cells are Lipo.

Round cells are dead. Even in the highest volume lithium market, the
18650's, companies projection road maps are steering away and all
roads seem to converge at LiPo.

[Eric Hicks]

Damn....physics should be "charging" for all this info...