Project proposal
mike1937
wait for some better infrastructure to come along" mind set, or at
least that's a reason I slowed down. But as we've said before, copying
and pasting later on can fix all of our problems in just a few
minutes; so I've been adding a few more stub articles and doing some
research and I created our first page categorized as a project:
http://www.oscomak.net/wiki/Fire_Clay
I think Paul mentioned a guy who studied middle eastern kilns and
thought they could be used in space; well he was quite right. Silica
and alumina can make a very good refractory material, in fact thats
what the tiles on the space shuttles are made out of. Both substances
also happen to be easily obtainable on Mars, and can be used to create
a thermal insulation chamber: http://www.oscomak.net/wiki/Thermal_Insulation_Chamber
Having such a chamber that can be maintained using solar power solves
a whole lot of problems involved with getting oxygen and silicon that
can be used for solar panels.
This looks like a good project because its something fairly
straitforward with calculatable goals (in fact the first step would be
calculating those goals, needed thermal reflection, etc) and is
returning to our roots, in a gift society. I think the native
americans used fire clay. Also the processes used to create it seem to
be patented, so in discovering and sharing a process we are living out
the post scarcity ideal so to speak.
If we're lucky, I was just lazy or oblivious in my researching and a
good technique can be found immediately, in which case we can move on
to other components of a thermal insulation chamber, such as the
heater. That would be another good project that you can feel free to
start on in part because all it requires is a bit of physics
knowledge, calculating what resistance is needed to get x power loss
from y current and z voltage, y and z being what solar panels can
supply.
Bryan Bishop
> I think we are slowing down a bit because we returned to the "lets
> wait for some better infrastructure to come along" mind set, or at
> least that's a reason I slowed down. But as we've said before,
> copying and pasting later on can fix all of our problems in just a
> few minutes; so I've been adding a few more stub articles and doing
> some research and I created our first page categorized as a project:
> http://www.oscomak.net/wiki/Fire_Clay
No, that's not what we said at all. The only thing that needs to be done
to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not a waiting
thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and hack out some
classes to represent the processes that we want to add into the system.
I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
> This looks like a good project because its something fairly
> straitforward with calculatable goals (in fact the first step would
> be calculating those goals, needed thermal reflection, etc) and is
> returning to our roots, in a gift society. I think the native
> americans used fire clay. Also the processes used to create it seem
> to be patented, so in discovering and sharing a process we are living
> out the post scarcity ideal so to speak.
I just mentioned this to Paul a few minutes ago, and I haven't processed
through this yet -- haven't established contact, haven't read through
all of it, etc., but I know that *this* is basically what you're
turning the project into, and it already exists: http://cd3wd.com/
The whole point was to have this do something more than just sit on that
server. So that's why we're turning this into http://fabuntu.org/
(which seems to need agx-get / SKDB, instead of debian apt-get which
ubuntu is so famously built off of). Guess that's where I come in at.
- Bryan (busy downloading, running hearpdf a few times at once, etc.)
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/
mike1937
> > wait for some better infrastructure to come along" mind set, or at
> > least that's a reason I slowed down. But as we've said before,
> > copying and pasting later on can fix all of our problems in just a
> > few minutes; so I've been adding a few more stub articles and doing
> > some research and I created our first page categorized as a project:
> >http://www.oscomak.net/wiki/Fire_Clay
>
> No, that's not what we said at all. The only thing that needs to be done
> to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not a waiting
> thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and hack out some
> classes to represent the processes that we want to add into the system.
> I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
officially don't care about the coding stuff. Its not a waiting game
for you, but it now is for me. All I want to do is get on with some
actual substance. One of the problems I see on that page, http://cd3wd.com/
is that it focuses way too much on the creation of the infrastructure,
it seems to go on and on about computer stuff. If something better
than the wiki pops up I will use it, but for now the wiki is good
enough for me.
> I just mentioned this to Paul a few minutes ago, and I haven't processed
> through this yet -- haven't established contact, haven't read through
> all of it, etc., but I know that *this* is basically what you're
> turning the project into, and it already exists:http://cd3wd.com/
least none that I know of, and even some modest success would merit
repititon with the space habitation field) is a bit of a bad omen.
> The whole point was to have this do something more than just sit on that
> server.
understand. Anything else that you do has to start with the knowledge
I want to gather here, even if it needs to be moved, refactored, etc.,
later. You can't experiment with zirconia electrolysis without
retaining heat with a refactory material and you can't make a
refactory material without knowing what goes in it. You can't simulate
the habitat without knowing the properties of the material, which you
can't know unless you know how the material will be made.
Just to affirm my assumption, when you say "more than just sit on that
server," you mean experimentation, simulation, automated data
gathering/dissimination, and eventually implementation, right? How can
you do any of that without first knowing what has already been done?
How does the wiki keep you from implementation or experimentation?
In short, how exactly do you plan to bypass the first step, what
http://cd3wd.com/ has done, before doing something else? This has
nothing to do with software, no matter how magically linuxy and
esoteric it is.
mike1937
the mailing list instead of a real forum is that it doesn't allow you
to edit something before someone particularly critical comes along,
not to mention any names.
On May 23, 7:47 pm, mike1937 <arid_sha...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > I think we are slowing down a bit because we returned to the "lets
> > > wait for some better infrastructure to come along" mind set, or at
> > > least that's a reason I slowed down. But as we've said before,
> > > copying and pasting later on can fix all of our problems in just a
> > > few minutes; so I've been adding a few more stub articles and doing
> > > some research and I created our first page categorized as a project:
> > >http://www.oscomak.net/wiki/Fire_Clay
>
> > No, that's not what we said at all. The only thing that needs to be done
> > to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not a waiting
> > thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and hack out some
> > classes to represent the processes that we want to add into the system.
> > I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
>
> officially don't care about the coding stuff. Its not a waiting game
> for you, but it now is for me. All I want to do is get on with some
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bryan Bishop
> > > I think we are slowing down a bit because we returned to the
> > > "lets wait for some better infrastructure to come along" mind
> > > set, or at least that's a reason I slowed down. But as we've said
> > > before, copying and pasting later on can fix all of our problems
> > > in just a few minutes; so I've been adding a few more stub
> > > articles and doing some research and I created our first page
> > > categorized as a project: http://www.oscomak.net/wiki/Fire_Clay
> >
> > No, that's not what we said at all. The only thing that needs to be
> > done to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not
> > a waiting thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and
> > hack out some classes to represent the processes that we want to
> > add into the system. I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
>
Meh, you were making it sound like nobody was getting any work done, but
you're not even keeping track of the IRC channels or the mailing list
that has the programmers chugging away on the problems. So the lack of
verbiage on openvirgle is more simply because I'm busy trying to write
up grant proposals and so on, while also mapping out dumpster diving
hotspots. I guess I can try to write more, but whatever. :-)
> officially don't care about the coding stuff. Its not a waiting game
The coding stuff is the whole point. Look, you could've used the simple
data structure that I provided ~20 days ago, dumped it into some tar
files, and then started dumping files of content in. Simple as that, it
does the same thing that you're doing, it'd be in a git repo, on a
wiki, and on the track that we were talking about.
> for you, but it now is for me. All I want to do is get on with some
Agreed re: all I want to do ...
> actual substance. One of the problems I see on that page,
> http://cd3wd.com/ is that it focuses way too much on the creation of
> the infrastructure, it seems to go on and on about computer stuff. If
Yeah, it's a third world development encyclopedia of sorts, but it's
obviously on the same track as OSCOMAK, although with no community
behind it oddly enough.
> something better than the wiki pops up I will use it, but for now the
> wiki is good enough for me.
Something *has* popped up re: ikiwiki + git + skdb files + python
classes and then the serialization into yaml metadata files and so on.
This way, you still get to dump in wiki content, but at the same time
you're using the infrastructure updates that we were discussing what is
now months ago (?), so it *is* better, and we convinced each other of
it.
> > The whole point was to have this do something more than just sit on
> > that server.
>
> I would argue that you can't simulate something you don't remotely
It's not so much about simulation -- simulation re: checking that the
units plug together is fine -- and besides, the simulation that you
want to do isn't "full world" simulation, but rather the type of
mission simulation where you double check Kepler's laws, or that your
boundary conditions in the partial differentials for the Navier-Stokes
aren't going to send your aircraft into a billion oblivions, etc.
Surprisingly little has to be understood about physics when doing those
sorts of simulations, and they turn out ridiculously accurate. Of
course, these aren't the molecular Hartfrees or something, so it's not
quite the same as the detailed comp-chem simulations, but we're not
working at that level yet, so let's ignore that.
> understand. Anything else that you do has to start with the knowledge
> I want to gather here, even if it needs to be moved, refactored,
Yes, but the whole point was that so that others can easily get the same
knowledge with simple keystrokes and automating all of this silly web
stuff [unless they want to use it, of course, which by all means, let
it be there]. That wiki infrastructure at the moment doesn't allow
this. It's pretty simple to setup ikiwiki:
# apt-get install ikiwiki
And the same with git.
# apt-get install git-core
And the same with python and yaml:
# apt-get install python py-yaml
> etc., later. You can't experiment with zirconia electrolysis without
> retaining heat with a refactory material and you can't make a
> refactory material without knowing what goes in it. You can't
> simulate the habitat without knowing the properties of the material,
> which you can't know unless you know how the material will be made.
Right. So full-world simulation isn't the point. We have to bootstrap
this with other projects that are already existing, we have to use the
societal engineering knowledge because frankly most of this information
is very hard to obtain, and at the same time seems to not exist on the
internet for significant portions; this is why I have been mentioning
philanthropic gatewaying/bootstrapping/funding, so that we can get some
techshops going with parts and manufacturing tools from other sources,
and then use these to boostrap open source, free components to make
more fablabs / fabubuntu-techshops, etc. And, of course, I will always
be very fascinated by the process of doing it all from the ground up,
but I'm inhibiting those urges of mine at the moment.
> Just to affirm my assumption, when you say "more than just sit on
> that server," you mean experimentation, simulation, automated data
> gathering/dissimination, and eventually implementation, right? How
Yeah, I guess. Really I mean the simple fact that it can't easily be
apt-getten. And that it doesn't lead to a fablab. That it doesn't lead
to a setup. It just leads to more of the same, really. With a wiki.
Which is new, it's different, yes, but not the full picture.
> can you do any of that without first knowing what has already been
> done? How does the wiki keep you from implementation or
> experimentation?
Well, it certainly keeps you preoccupied from the alternative
infrastructure that we've been building, that's for sure.
> In short, how exactly do you plan to bypass the first step, what
> http://cd3wd.com/ has done, before doing something else? This has
> nothing to do with software, no matter how magically linuxy and
> esoteric it is.
It has everything to do with software. Structured information, bits and
bytes. The data on cd3wd is in natural English, a retarded language
when doing engineering. It needs to be in software-form, so that we can
guarantee specific functional utilization with the world; part of this
world includes people, and getting people this information is
important, letting them access it as easily as possible and so on.
That's the whole point of the apt-get analogy. Not to mention the
social backbone collaboration, etc.
- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/
mike1937
> you're not even keeping track of the IRC channels or the mailing list
IRC channel is, and therefore have no right to be wasting your time
with this I suppose (no sarcasm intended if it came out that way).
> Something *has* popped up re: ikiwiki + git + skdb files + python
> classes and then the serialization into yaml metadata files and so on.
> This way, you still get to dump in wiki content, but at the same time
> you're using the infrastructure updates that we were discussing what is
> now months ago (?), so it *is* better, and we convinced each other of
> it.
personally have absolutely no idea how to do my suggested fire clay
project that way, and I'm not asking for an explanation, but a route
for the average person that doesn't involve much time or effort (Ok,
average person being intelligent person with something to contribute
that knows nothing about computers, that ever mentioned quintessetial
representation of myself that I hide behind, but who is relevent none
the less).
> bytes. The data on cd3wd is in natural English, a retarded language
> when doing engineering. It needs to be in software-form, so that we can
english is fine, and I maintain that wiki information could be easily
refactored into whatever you're working on. I would suggest that you
guys keep working on that abstraction I've created in my mind under
the faccade of "programming" and that the non-tech group keeps doing
its thing, but then I remember I am the non-tech group. I guess I'll
just wonder off and, dare I say it, be social for a month and check in
eventually. Its fine by me if you keep communicating however you are
now instead of via this thread, I'm probably the only one reading it
anymore.
I still haven't given up hope on someone uploading a magical GUI that
says "hey, look at me, I have nothing to do with linux!" thats
virtualy the same as a wiki with support for scripts and CADs that
requires no googling, downloading, or things I don't want to learn
about.
As always, I can figure out what your talking about just enough to
figure out that your right and I'm wrong, but not enough to gain any
meaningful comprehension or keep from saying the same things again and
again in the future just for you to correct them. But don't explain it
to me, the problem isn't on your end its on mine, I'll come back and
argue again when I manage to scrape up a bit more comprehension.
Paul D. Fernhout
You might want to be more cautious in how you use "we". :-)
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
> Main reason I hate
> the mailing list instead of a real forum is that it doesn't allow you
> to edit something before someone particularly critical comes along,
> not to mention any names.
That's a good point. Although in theory the more we use the Wiki for
organization, the less of a problem it is. But I still am a creature of
email, for good or bad. Probably some way to gateway all changes to email?
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
(I sent you this directly, but I'll put it here too, with some changes.)
I ended up trying ikiwiki to transform text into HTML (from your talk of
it), but abandoned it.
Still, I think it was good to try it, as it got me started somewhere. So
thanks for that.
Why did I abandon ikiwiki really fast?
The (default) markup system clashed with my previous email style. It was
also slow on my machine (as in like tens of seconds to process each time).
And it was a big package (it wants to support web editing for example, when
all I wanted to do was transform a few files a little). Related to that it
made all sorts of files I did not need or want.
I modified a simple Python script my wife wrote to generate stuff like this
from a text file that looks a lot like an email (about 5K). It works nearly
instantly.
What problem is it that you feel ikiwiki is the solution for?
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
Bryan is obviously reading a lot, but don't let him intimidate you too much.
Nobody knows everything. And sometimes people don't know what they don't
know. :-) He sounds confident, but so did George Bush about Iraq.
I'm not saying Bryan is wrong about anything specific here,
I'm just suggesting *anyone* could be, no matter how confident they sound.
Especially when they are talking about something new.
This is something I learned the hard way when the adult daughter of a friend
at a dinner party sounded so confident about knowing how to do a flip with
young kids, kept saying how fun it would be to my kid and my wife. I even
encouraged my reluctant child (then a two year old) to try it with the
daughter. It went badly. Fortunately there was not even a bruise for my kid,
just a bump on the floor and a scare -- but I still shudder when I think
what could have happened with a broken neck. It turned out the woman did not
really know what she was doing at all (or not much) and had just done it
with her nephew in a different circumstance. She was very mortified of
course -- as well she should have been. I was a new parent and in a social
situation. I had thought she was just going to pick the kid up and do a
cartwheel, not a different more gymnasticy thing that she tried to do with
my kid and failed at miserably. But I learned something important then, and
fortunately it did not cost my child the ability to walk for a lifetime --
ask the hard questions when it is your baby on the line.
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
The Space Studies Institute helped fund Nader Khalili's work specifically to
help with space habitations.
http://www.ssi.org/?page_id=6
"""
Fused Soil Products for Space Construction
Architect Nader Khalili of the Geltaftan Foundation and Senior Associate
Joseph Kennedy have demonstrated techniques for using concentrated solar
thermal energy to produce fused soil structures and building materials which
may be used for lunar paving and habitats.
"""
There is a lot more in the are of casting in general, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting
I'm really happy to see content going in. All good stuff to think about both
as to content now and tagging in the future.
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
> No, that's not what we said at all.
Again, who is the "we"?
> The only thing that needs to be done
> to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not a waiting
> thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and hack out some
> classes to represent the processes that we want to add into the system.
> I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
I once came into a project as a consultant that had a dozen people coding
GUIs with that philosophy. What a mess, Everything different. Stuff
incomplete. Inconsistencies. Bugs. Lots of time spent trying to understand
what all that did. Eventually, we :-) replaced all that with a common
architecture and higher level specifications for building GUIs. That new
code has run for many years with hardly any problems and processed a lot of
information.
Again, it would be helpful to give an example of a *complete* class that
shows what you mean. Otherwise, this is about as helpful as saying "write it
down on paper". Which may be what is done (using paper), but write what? And
using what notation? And to what ends? And how does it all interrelate? All
issues that are begun to be addressed when you give an example. These are
just a few examples of the "hard questions" I mentioned in another post.
If you're going to intimidate Mike into wandering off, at least let's get
something out of it, please. :-(
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
Which gets back to the model of:
* "cow"/facts,
* "bull"/thinking,
* "pasture"/infrastructure, and
* "certification"/licensing (or perhaps also validation).
A good project needs all of them. Still, the community is more important as
it can successively refine these things. Those are the "ranchers"? Or
"tribespeople"? :-)
And I do see Bryan is making some progress on refinements. But what good are
they without the community or the content?
We could have built space habitations in the 1970s with hand-drawn paper
blueprints and files full of index cards. That we didn't say something more
about vision than about technology. The only big difference is that modern
computers let us do some things faster and with less people -- making a
volunteer approach more feasible. And sometimes computers can somewhat
replace with simulation what otherwise would take a lot of expensive
physical trial and error.
The Wiki is essentially a fancy filing cabinet. :-)
Sure we can envision better things, but it is a place to start.
Just like Bryan's Ikiwiki suggestion got me started on my essay site:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/
even though I quickly abandoned it for something simpler and faster.
So, I have to thank Bryan for helping get me past a conceptual barrier.
But, I also used my wife's code as a start (which was written months ago),
so it was more the combination of her prodding and Bryan's Ikiwiki promotion
(plus some other things) that got me going. Rarely is there one thing that
makes all the difference. Unless it is some grand thing like love or hope. :-)
But in the end I have spent maybe 100 hours (or whatever) writing that
content and only about one hour at most messing with the program that
transforms it from text into html. And I could have just written it
in plain HTML. :-)
Nowadays, programmers are common. What make a valuable programmer valuable
these days is either both vast experience and vast talent :-)
or a moderate experience and a moderate talent and significant content
knowledge. So, I'd suggest the second approach is a better one (and more
realistic approach) for most people, who want to be well paid programmers.
On the other hand, ignoring that basic computer and programming literacy is
required for almost any kind of science or engineering task these days, one
can still imagine people wit a lot of subject matter knowledge and
experience working well as part of a team, even if they can't program one
bit. For example, a great dancer might contribute a lot of insights into how
to make good dancing robots, including by being able to evaluate the results.
Your mind is probably the greatest computer you will ever have. :-)
At least, I hope so, as the alternative is pretty scary. :-)
--Paul Fernhout
Bryan Bishop
> Probably some way to gateway all changes to email?
Wikipedia runs some bots that report to IRC and also email servers for
recent changes. It's a very massive volume of messages for them, but
yes. If anything it's just a daemon that monitors for db writes.
Bryan Bishop
The revision system. Other wikis force you to use it in a database. We
do not need a MySQL database. That's overkill. Just use flatfiles, so
that we can distribute literal files that can be called packages. I
could possibly maybe offer support in rewriting mediawiki to function
without a database backend, but I think it's heavily integrated into
its system, so I need to review the code first before making any
promises. I offered to you - in email response (really, this is just
for others to see) - that we could write our own wiki that does what we
need it to since ikiwiki has very strange requirements (the syntax?
what's going on there? It even confused me.).
Bryan Bishop
By 'we' I refer to the people on the project. Remember, there's a
mailing list and IRC channel, etc. It's why I've let the openvirgle
group get silent over the past few days [also, high school graduation
issues, but I don't want to use that as an excuse].
Bryan Bishop
> > No, that's not what we said at all.
>
> Again, who is the "we"?
The guys in #hplusroadmap, which at the moment consists of: fenn, nsh,
ybit, kanzure, krebs, shogunx, biopunk, Vedestin, kramer3d, phreedom.
I'm missing a few guys at the moment, but that's probably because they
are slackers and doing something irrelevant like sleeping :-).
> > The only thing that needs to be done
> > to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not a
> > waiting thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and hack
> > out some classes to represent the processes that we want to add
> > into the system. I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
>
> I once came into a project as a consultant that had a dozen people
> coding GUIs with that philosophy. What a mess, Everything different.
> Stuff incomplete. Inconsistencies. Bugs. Lots of time spent trying to
> understand what all that did. Eventually, we :-) replaced all that
> with a common architecture and higher level specifications for
> building GUIs. That new code has run for many years with hardly any
> problems and processed a lot of information.
Nah, I'm all for common architectures.
> Again, it would be helpful to give an example of a *complete* class
> that shows what you mean. Otherwise, this is about as helpful as
Again ...
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-05-12
class metadata:
name = "Default project name"
pgpKey = "3940914afdafdja0r391"
hashSum = "90149940141" # This is of the dot skdb file in general, yes?
maintainerEmailAddy = "Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com>"
reqFiles # Required files for a default installation.
configScript = path/to/config/script/within-the/.skdb-file/config.py
# To help with over-rides, the config-script is still included.
Three things that make this 'incomplete':
#1: 'reqFiles' needs to be of type list. This is due to my lack of
python knowledge.
#2: It'd be a good idea to discuss the efficacy of this format.
#3: The actual Py-YAML hooks. These are not hard.
http://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation
Example:
class Hero:
... def __init__(self, name, hp, sp):
... self.name = name
... self.hp = hp
... self.sp = sp
... def __repr__(self):
... return "%s(name=%r, hp=%r, sp=%r)" % (
... self.__class__.__name__, self.name, self.hp, self.sp)
In this case we can do something like:
class metadata:
name = "Default project name"
pgpKey = "3940914afdafdja0r391"
hashSum = "90149940141" # This is of the dot skdb file in general, yes?
maintainerEmailAddy = "Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com>"
reqFiles # Required files for a default installation.
configScript = path/to/config/script/within-the/.skdb-file/config.py
# To help with over-rides, the config-script is still included.
def __init__(name, pgpKey, hashSum, maintainerEmailAddy, reqFiles,
configScript):
self.name = name
self.pgpKey = pgpKey
self.hashSum = hashSum
self.maintainerEmailAddy = maintainerEmailAddy
self.reqFiles = reqFiles
self.configScript = configScript
def __repr__(self):
return "%s(name=%r, pgpKey=%r, hashSum=%r, maintainerEmailAddy=%r,
reqFiles=%r, configScript=%r)" % (self.__class__.__name__, self.name,
self.pgpKey, self.hashSum, self.maintainerEmailAddy, self.reqFiles,
self.configScript)
It'd be a good idea to check the %r's there, I'm pretty sure I'm not
using the correct variable replacement symbols/tokens, for example
specifying a list with %r is probably very very wrong.
> saying "write it down on paper". Which may be what is done (using
> paper), but write what?
It's the classes and metadata, remember? It's so that we can then
proceed to eventually something like this: class BunsenBurner variables
size, metal composition requirements (this is probably of a type that
is elsewhere specified in the database; but at first, it can be a
placeholder), maybe propane versus octane versus pure alcohol and so
on. Also, the reason why the 'reqFiles' variable is up there in the
root metadata class specification is so that you can dump files into
the .skdb file (there's a dot there, it's to be pronounced) and mention
them, even if they're just 'natural language' stuffs.
> And using what notation?
http://yaml.org/
http://python.org/
> And to what ends?
Automated manufacturing, semanticized knowledge databases, etc. etc.
> And how does it all interrelate? All issues that are begun to be
> addressed when you give an example. These are just a few examples of
To be fair, I did post examples a few weeks ago.
> the "hard questions" I mentioned in another post. If you're going to
> intimidate Mike into wandering off, at least let's get something out
> of it, please. :-(
For what it's worth, I have+had no intentions of intimidating Mike.
mike1937
YAML and python syntax. I still think the semantic wiki is a good
starting point, theres no need to make it semantic as we go, that just
complicates things. Why not do projects in simple english first when
appropriate, like finding a way to make clay from Mars rocks, then
semanticize it when its finished, for those of us less comfortable
with code, and for people to find later? This might be (actually I
think you have said that it *is*) what you have in mind, with some
sort of text included in the skdb files, or with them, but then I
return to my argument that copy and paste can fix everything.
> For what it's worth, I have+had no intentions of intimidating Mike.
but I don't begrudge you whatever is the most eloquent. I don't feel
particularly intimidated, it is the internet after all where I can
just leave if I don't like it, and in compliance with stigmergy it
doesn't really matter to me who does what, just what I do next to meet
my goal, which is the betterment of man kind and what not.
On May 24, 8:45 am, Bryan Bishop <kanz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday 24 May 2008, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
>
> > Bryan Bishop wrote:
> > > No, that's not what we said at all.
>
> > Again, who is the "we"?
>
> The guys in #hplusroadmap, which at the moment consists of: fenn, nsh,
> ybit, kanzure, krebs, shogunx, biopunk, Vedestin, kramer3d, phreedom.
> I'm missing a few guys at the moment, but that's probably because they
> are slackers and doing something irrelevant like sleeping :-).
>
> > > The only thing that needs to be done
> > > to get it started is writing out python and classes. It's not a
> > > waiting thing. Just sit down with the python documentation and hack
> > > out some classes to represent the processes that we want to add
> > > into the system. I see no such thing on this wiki page :-(.
>
> > I once came into a project as a consultant that had a dozen people
> > coding GUIs with that philosophy. What a mess, Everything different.
> > Stuff incomplete. Inconsistencies. Bugs. Lots of time spent trying to
> > understand what all that did. Eventually, we :-) replaced all that
> > with a common architecture and higher level specifications for
> > building GUIs. That new code has run for many years with hardly any
> > problems and processed a lot of information.
>
> Nah, I'm all for common architectures.
>
> > Again, it would be helpful to give an example of a *complete* class
> > that shows what you mean. Otherwise, this is about as helpful as
>
> class metadata:
> name = "Default project name"
> pgpKey = "3940914afdafdja0r391"
> hashSum = "90149940141" # This is of the dot skdb file in general, yes?
> configScript = path/to/config/script/within-the/.skdb-file/config.py
> # To help with over-rides, the config-script is still included.
>
> Three things that make this 'incomplete':
>
> #1: 'reqFiles' needs to be of type list. This is due to my lack of
> python knowledge.
>
> #2: It'd be a good idea to discuss the efficacy of this format.
>
> Example:
> class Hero:
> ... def __init__(self, name, hp, sp):
> ... self.name = name
> ... self.hp = hp
> ... self.sp = sp
> ... def __repr__(self):
> ... return "%s(name=%r, hp=%r, sp=%r)" % (
> ... self.__class__.__name__, self.name, self.hp, self.sp)
>
> In this case we can do something like:
>
> class metadata:
> name = "Default project name"
> pgpKey = "3940914afdafdja0r391"
> hashSum = "90149940141" # This is of the dot skdb file in general, yes?
Bryan Bishop
> Thanks, that does help me some, I'll start familiarizing myself with
> YAML and python syntax. I still think the semantic wiki is a good
http://python.org/
http://yaml.org/
http://pyyaml.org/
http://docs.python.org/tut/
http://sthurlow.com/python/
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers
http://www.poromenos.org/tutorials/python
http://showmedo.com/videos/python
and youtube might have something worthwhile.
> starting point, theres no need to make it semantic as we go, that
> just complicates things. Why not do projects in simple english first
> when appropriate, like finding a way to make clay from Mars rocks,
> then semanticize it when its finished, for those of us less
> comfortable with code, and for people to find later? This might be
> (actually I think you have said that it *is*) what you have in mind,
> with some sort of text included in the skdb files, or with them, but
> then I return to my argument that copy and paste can fix everything.
You got it, except that last part - we're just killing a few birds with
one stone here. To do this we just need clearly marked 'projects' with
some simple metadata to start off with (it can easily be modified
later), and then you just specify what's in the skdb file (i.e.,
blah.html has information on blahing and pingponging).