wikipedia page and random other stuff
mike1937
heh, didn't know that was in existence. From the history I can tell
Bryan did part of it, thanks for that. Perhaps we should change the
government from communism? People really like assuming anything that
isn't capitalism is communism, because there is obviously no other
form of economy (sarcasm).
I also know that at least one chatbot is now aware of openvirgles
existance haha.
~~~~~~~~~Random Philosophical rant because I'm bored and can't think
of anyplace better to post it, probably a counterproductive
distraction feel free to ignore ~~~~~~~~~~~
On post scarcity:
Bryan and Paul seem to be largely of this postion:
http://www.enotes.com/gooseberries-text/ (from gooseberries by Anton
Chekhov, a good short story I would recomend reading all of it)
""That night I realized that I, too, was happy and contented," Ivan
Ivanovitch went on, getting up. "I, too, at dinner and at the hunt
liked to lay down the law on life and religion, and the way to manage
the peasantry. I, too, used to say that science was light, that
culture was essential, but for the simple people reading and writing
was enough for the time. Freedom is a blessing, I used to say; we can
no more do without it than without air, but we must wait a little.
Yes, I used to talk like that, and now I ask, 'For what reason are we
to wait?' " asked Ivan Ivanovitch, looking angrily at Burkin. "Why
wait, I ask you? What grounds have we for waiting? I shall be told, it
can't be done all at once; every idea takes shape in life gradually,
in its due time. But who is it says that? Where is the proof that it's
right? You will fall back upon the natural order of things, the
uniformity of phenomena; but is there order and uniformity in the fact
that I, a living, thinking man, stand over a chasm and wait for it to
close of itself, or to fill up with mud at the very time when perhaps
I might leap over it or build a bridge across it? And again, wait for
the sake of what? Wait till there's no strength to live? And meanwhile
one must live, and one wants to live!"
And ~a month ago I told Paul that I thought we didn't actually have
enough abundance to end capitalism, but he convinced me otherwise.
However, the second requirement is the morality required to shake
loose the chains of greed. One can point to the transition from
authoritarianism in some form or another to democracy. It required a
great deal of trust in morality and in the people, and though it had a
few backlashes (the french revolution and insuing chaos) it ended up
working out. However I think any transition would require the utmost
caution, and you needn't look further than our sister forum.
How my generation killed the forum (mailing list, whatever) and how
it's relevent:
If I told you thirty years ago that a medium would exist in which
people could discuss ideas completely openly with anyone else on earth
without that person knowing their age, gender, or wealth, you would
reply: "That is great, the best ideas will float to the surface and be
accepted by all." The reason it turned out that way epitomizes all of
the problems human ethics face now. As a friend of mine says: "normal
person + anonymity = total jackass." A lot of people don't listen, and
more directly don't think, because they have had dogma spoon fed to
them for their entire lives. Then the mature people try talking to
them and are forced to denegrate themselves to their level. Doing
otherwise is "elitist." Theres plenty examples to the contrary, but I
refer here to the majority of debate and the majority of public
opinion.
At first glance this would seem easily solvable via Gatto's
suggestions:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
If people are free to learn like Paul wants them to, by freely seeking
knowledge themselves, then they learn the only really important
lesson: how to learn. So, you make schools optional and everyone
learns what they want to, they are free thinkers, and so corporations
crumble. It wouldn't work out that way. Because students don't know
the reason they hate school (because school has rendered them
incomplete and mentaly handicapped (excuse the connotations there))
they wouldn't go. The idea behind post scarcity is that they would
eventually have to go, to make society survive. But that transition of
going to the edge and trying to come back is dangerous, particularly
with China and other competitors hanging around. (For the record,
particularly with outsiders, communism is the OPPOSITE of what we are
talking about! It is on the other side of capitalism from us on the
socio-political spectrum. Libertarianism isn't really relevent in my
opinion, except in the argument that individualism and altruism should
be balanced).
So the question becomes, we do we escape this circle? You can't fix
the morals without being post scarcity and you can't be post-scarcity
without morals (like almost every other noun in this essay morals are
a metonymy). And the answer is to work within the system.
Ideas for working within the system:
Things need to be slowly moved in the right direction. The larger
number of critical thinking, moral, (confucious' superior man?
Nietzsche's super man?(the idea of the ubermaunche is taken out of
context nowadays)) people there are, the smoother the transition. I
promised myself at the start of this I would omit religion, and I will
(that sort of restraint is how you get people on your side, and lack
of it is why forums die). The main need is to slowly change schools.
If you can get the higher ups to change there mind (mass e-mails to
the secretary of education anyone? I already gave a teacher a link to
gatto's site) a smooth transition can occur. The main thing that
drives school policies is irrational following results, without enough
thought given to whether their positive results are in the right
direction.
For example, why don't people like us change the school system? Easy.
We leave it with the warm fuzzy feeling that we have been through a
great struggle that has made us better people who are ready to face
the world. This is obtained through graduation and other ceremonies. I
had to sneak off of campus today while they were making us sit through
an assembly about how great we are. My school has about 5
"celebrations" for seniors that are mandatory. Why would they make it
mandatory? Because if you are left thinking "I just had my soul
rendered jaded and incomplete" you would go back and change the
system. Every graduation card that says "we're proud of you and you're
such a great person after all this hard work" stings. I could right a
book of examples beyond graduation.
This idea breaks my nice linear organization, oh well: why not have a
wiki-like system that forces every product in the US to trace its net
resource consumption during production? If that infrastructure was in
place it would take no time for all of the stores to use capitalism to
our advantage and utilize green as an advertising gimmick.
Now that I have thoroughly forgotten what I started this essay about,
I ask for responses. Doram, you said you liked philosophy at one
point? And Paul will undoubtedly shame this essay with one twice as
long.
Another request, no one writting this much is going to think through
every bit of diction so please don't nit pick. I remember a tale about
Confucius (sadly can't find it to quote) in which he comes across a
peasant woman and in his lack of empathy strikes her and calls her
worthless for not working hard enough. The great fall of the wisest
men (Bryan and Paul) is recognizing when criticism is constructive and
when it is just habit:
http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext05/esycr10.htm
As Alexander Pope wrote:
"'Tis hard to say if greater want of skill
Appear in writing or in judging ill,"
Upon further inspection that was not the essay I was looking for, but
I read it and it is still a good one. Quite puts this essay to shame
really. The internet has a habit of always humbling me by showing me
how others have done similiar, or superior, things before me. The task
of going back and fixing my atrocious grammar is too daunting, so
hopefully you managed to follow at least some of that.
Paul D. Fernhout
> At first glance this would seem easily solvable via Gatto's
> suggestions:
> http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
> If people are free to learn like Paul wants them to, by freely seeking
> knowledge themselves, then they learn the only really important
> lesson: how to learn. So, you make schools optional and everyone
> learns what they want to, they are free thinkers, and so corporations
> crumble. It wouldn't work out that way. Because students don't know
> the reason they hate school (because school has rendered them
> incomplete and mentaly handicapped (excuse the connotations there))
> they wouldn't go. The idea behind post scarcity is that they would
> eventually have to go, to make society survive.
Not "have to go" -- more like "want to go" the same way people read comic
books,
http://www.howtoons.com/
go to the public library,
http://www.wikipedia.org/
and use Google to look things up. :-)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Mike+Harris
Hey, I didn't know you played professional basketball! :-)
Previously Premier of Ontario too, advocating a "Common Sense Revolution"?
:-) You get around. :-)
This assumes of course that schools contained "educators" and not
"teachers". :-) If public libraries were run like public schools (grading,
surveillance, bullying) nobody would want to use them either.
Most long term teachers are broken people at this point (cynical, sarcastic.
bullying, untrusting. scripted, unauthentic, etc.) made that way by the
system they work in in order to just survive, same as any prison guards:
"Prison horrors haunt guards' private lives - The Denver Post"
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259338
"Now these men and women, who face growing numbers of inmates in some of the
nation's toughest federal and state prisons, say they're increasingly
overwhelmed. They harden themselves to survive inside prison, guards said in
recent interviews. Then they find they can't snap out of it at the end of
the day. Some seethe to themselves. Others commit suicide. Depression,
alcoholism, domestic violence and heart attacks are common. And entire
communities suffer. "You're not normal anymore," said Hondray Simmons, 36,
an Iraq war veteran now working in the Colorado State Penitentiary in Cañon
City. ... Prison guards work in "an unrecognized war zone," said Caterina
Spinaris, 53, who left a lucrative psychological counseling practice in
Denver six years ago. ... You go into restaurants, you sit with your back to
the wall. You want to see all the entrances and exits, and you notice if
somebody is carrying something bulky. You can't turn these skills off," said
Matthew von Hobe, 50, a former manager at the four-prison federal complex in
Florence. [Same as reflexive criticism by ex-teachers. :-(] ... Short
staffing as the U.S. prison population tops 2.2 million leaves guards
short-tempered and prone to "rage attacks" directed at family, said Dr.
Robert McCurry, another local physician. The environment behind bars brings
out the worst in everyone, said a former prison staffer now helping
domestic-violence victims at Cañon City's Family Crisis Center. ... Among
the first guards asking Spinaris for help was Cory Hodges, 37. A rising star
at the high-security U.S. Penitentiary, Hodges worried his work was hurting
him as a husband and new father. ... "I can't seem to get along with anyone
anymore," Hodges wrote to Spinaris a year ago. "I can't tolerate anyone.
It's like I could care less if everyone fell off the face of the Earth. It
seems that the only people I want close to me are my wife and my son, and
they don't want to be close to me because I am so miserable all of the
time." Today Hodges works as a railroad engineer based in Texas. He credits
Spinaris with saving his life, but he still struggles. "You still question
everything people do. You treat other people like you treat convicts,"
Hodges said. "You don't wipe this out in a year. I don't know if it ever
goes away." While he and others in federal and state prisons are reluctant
to go into detail about their work, they also yearn to let outsiders know
what they face. ... "
Obviously most schools are not as extreme social situations as SuperMax
prisons. Still, I feel there may be some weak parallels, with more going on
behind the smiley face plastered on most long term teachers than even they
might admit. Teachers would need to retrain themselves -- and that would
take ... time. :-) And as the guard above said: "You don't wipe this out in
a year. I don't know if it ever goes away."
Anyway, one way I approach this issue with current teachers is to ask them:
"How would your classroom be different if only the kids who wanted to be
there were there?"
Eventually, I'd expect "schools" as centralized buildings would be
repurposed. You want to learn science (or robotics :-) you go hang out
around science labs (and likely there might also be one down the road just
for fun and for younger kids to play in).
"5 dangerous things you should let your kids do (video)"
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/07/5-dangerous-things-y.html
You want to learn to write, you hang out with writers. You want to learn to
farm, you hang out with farmers. Same for plumbing -- a sort of
apprenticeship model for many things. Not all things might fit
apprenticeship model, probably, but many would (and this is apprenticeship
without the economic wage-slavery overtones, something that rarely exists in
our society, but you might find a little on the internet :-).
Also in a post-scarcity society, only a tiny fraction of people would have
to do the kind of infrastructure support we now call work (because so much
could be automated or reengineered or rethought), so that leaves a lot of
reserve capacity for general human laziness (which is a good thing IMHO. :-)
So training for most people to do anything is not essential. People can work
amazing hard about something they take a fancy to. Most people learn a lot
when given the free time to do so.
http://www.usfirst.org/
That is, when their time is really free, not time spent recovering is some
addictive way from being a guard at, say, a prison, or a school, or a store,
or a foundation (which hires people basically to say "no"), or even a
welfare office (my mom, as a "social worker" gatekeeper for benefits, turned
to chain smoking :-( ). Even at Google there are many guards, no doubt. :-)
From:
http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
"I don't suggest that most work is salvageable in this way. But then most
work isn't worth trying to save. Only a small and diminishing fraction of
work serves any useful purpose independent of the defense and reproduction
of the work-system and its political and legal appendages. Twenty years ago,
Paul and Percival Goodman estimated that just five percent of the work then
being done -- presumably the figure, if accurate, is lower now -- would
satisfy our minimal needs for food, clothing and shelter. Theirs was only an
educated guess but the main point is quite clear: directly or indirectly,
most work serves the unproductive purposes of commerce or social control.
Right off the bat we can liberate tens of millions of salesmen, soldiers,
managers, cops, stockbrokers, clergymen, bankers, lawyers, teachers,
landlords, security guards, ad-men and everyone who works for them. There is
a snowball effect since every time you idle some bigshot you liberate his
flunkies and underlings also. Thus the economy implodes."
Liked the rest of your essay by the way. Envisioning ways forward is very on
topic IMHO. Especially your point on the value of graduation. No shame in
it; it's hard (and probably counterproductive) to make a one person stand
against social trends. Congrats on surviving having your "soul rendered
jaded and incomplete". :-) There is yet time to renew it individually or
collectively -- all the time in the universe. :-) Ki-Aikido teaches us to
merge with the (usually) ignorant and undisciplined and unethical
aggressor's energy flow and redirect it to more positive ends -- something
to think about when dealing with school or other problems in life. :-)
You wrote: "Now that I have thoroughly forgotten what I started this essay
about" -- those are the best kind IMHO. :-)
Also, "the woods would be pretty quiet if no bird sang there but the best."
Alexander Pope probably had fun and learned something by writing his essay;
why should you not get both out of writing too? There is plenty of time for
learning and having fun if we do not waste it on trivialities or even too
much on formalities.
And no need to compare your essays to mine; I've had decades to refine my
style and perspective (still a work in progress) -- I could not have written
what you wrote at eighteen or even twenty-eight (before my wife, but I had
started trending that way on my own. :-) I also ignored Isaac Asimov's
advice in one of his books to read the "classics" as well as sci-fi, as he
had done, leaving my self-education impoverished (I only saw that Checkov
quote a few months ago when my wife showed it to me in what she was reading
as she went through his complete works). At eighteen, I thought all Iranians
should be forced out of the USA for the hostage crisis (until I met one at
college, even though he kept throwing his knife into the ceiling tiles in
the dorm). I'd have still been cheering on the current Iraq war and
recommending even more flaming death as what those impudent Iraqis deserved
for mishandling "our" oil. I would not be distinguishing between the people
and their guards (let alone having compassion for even the guards). I was
all for bombing the oil fields in Iraq in Gulf War I to teach them a lesson
(which rightfully shocked my mother). "Spike" is me at that age. :-)
Although that is probably saying unfair bad things about "Spike" who
otherwise has some great posts earlier on. Even his or her recent one
probably directed at me was not that unfair in some ways. I'd respond to it
(asking "Spike" to outline his or her core beliefs and, say, defend spending
$2 trillion on the Iraq war instead of energy self-sufficiency or defend
increased abortions given less social spending and worse working conditions
-- and I'd point out both the Democrats and the Republicans are little
different in many ways), but I am so limited keeping up as it is.
That comment on my youthful beliefs was intended to be a hopeful indication
of, like my Christian namesake, Saul of Tarsus, the possibilities of human
change; not sure it turned out that way or will be received as such. :-)
But even "Paul the Apostle" has his problems as a source of wisdom:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Paul+versus+Jesus
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm
Something more directly hopeful, from Howard Zinn:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040920/zinn
"I am totally confident not that the world will get better, but that we
should not give up the game before all the cards have been played. The
metaphor is deliberate; life is a gamble. Not to play is to foreclose any
chance of winning. To play, to act, is to create at least a possibility of
changing the world. There is a tendency to think that what we see in the
present moment will continue. We forget how often we have been astonished by
the sudden crumbling of institutions, by extraordinary changes in people's
thoughts, by unexpected eruptions of rebellion against tyrannies, by the
quick collapse of systems of power that seemed invincible. "
--Paul Fernhout
P.S, On diction, you might also look at the terminological difference
between "ethics" and "morals", BTW.
P.P.S. Yes, being too critical is one of my personal failings. It sometimes
helps with programming but usually hurts with people. Paranoia is the same
way. So is lack of trust. So is perfectionism. All help with, say,
debugging, but not with building human relationships (they sometimes even
get in the way of building programs too. :-) Another legacy of my own
history in terms of my specific tendencies interacting with being both a
longtime prisoner in schools and also then a (professorial) guard (which in
many ways was much more corrosive of my soul than being an inmate, even
though I spent a lot less time that way).
P.P.P.S. None of this is intended to make light of the prison problem in the
USA by comparing it to schools, even though the two are intertwined in
various ways, as Gatto outlines.
FlagFreak
"Utopian?" since it claims that on the Virgle FAQ.
Doram
Bryan Bishop
> I am changing the government type on Virgle's Wikipedia page to
> "Utopian?" since it claims that on the Virgle FAQ.
At least for Virgle. OpenVirgle is by no means utopian. Though
post-scarcity myths might be easily confused with utopian myths. An
interesting conflation of terminology, I suspect.
- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/