Any openvirglers on the east coast?
Bryan Bishop
Turns out that isdc2008.org is in fact interested in doing it -- if not
an actual presentation, then part of Amara's, as well as talking with
some ISDC peoples. I'll be willing to make the trek up there to DC, but
since it's conflicting with high school graduation, and various
relatives, and the >2000 miles between here and there, I was wondering
if I could have a proxy. Any takers?
- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/
Paul D. Fernhout
for registration, DC hotels etc, and transport) for me given OSCOMAK has so
little in it right now (plus leaving my wife on her own with our child for
several days, which is more significant than the other part. :-). Hopefully,
a year from now (assuming substantial progress) I would probably make such a
trip (or to similar conferences) whatever it took if it seemed useful.
I can also think of dozens of other channels to promote OpenVirgle or
OSCOMAK (even including presentation to historical societies to put in more
farming data into OSCOMAK; my wife and I are members of our local historical
society and I would start networking from there, but there are probably
thousands of such societies). And there is this:
"The American Historical Association"
http://www.historians.org/
And:
"History of Science Society"
http://www.hssonline.org/
and so on. Remember, when does history start? One second ago. :-)
I'm just not going to pursue any of these groups myself until I feel the
system is solid and is showing some potential. And that can be done cheaply
via the internet IMHO. And very many more people than we have now might be
confusing as far as basic design discussions (maybe doubling to another four
main posters might be OK, especially some with CAD or NASA procedure
experience).
I used to go to the SSI conference http://www.ssi.org/ (but that was closer
and cheaper); IMHO it has descended into asteroid defense fear mongering
unfortunately:
"A Space Roadmap: Mine the Sky, Defend the Earth, Settle the Universe"
http://ssi.org/?page_id=2
(The "Defend" part, which is new and was getting played up.)
I tried to fight that approach to no avail at one of the last conferences
(was 2001 the last?) -- the group seemed looking for the magic bullet (or
impact asteroid) so to speak, to open the purse of government or industry
for space habitat building. This was rather than doing space habitats
themselves, say through OSCOMAK, as I felt was more in line with the spirit
of the organizations founding and the spirit of the Senior Associate program
(I used to be on), sigh. IMHO, and as I spent about a month explaining on
the SSI list, the space power idea is rapidly falling apart as rooftop PV
solar panels will in 20 to 30 years likely cost less per KWh that even just
transmission costs for SPS-beamed central power (even if the power beamed
from space was free, which it won't be). Example from even just today:
http://www.nanosolar.com/
So SSI's approach is becoming more like a memorial than an active force,
sadly, and as someone who sometimes scrimped and saved to keep up my five
year pledge to them while in my early twenties, I'm disappointed. I've
thought often over the years of redirecting that non-profit in OSCOMAK
directions. I even talked with Freeman Dyson (the president) about it about
ten years ago (mostly while walking across the Iowa State campus as he was
en route to another talk). And then later I presented a poster paper on it
and then the next conference the 2001 paper and tried to engage people on
it, not very successfully).
http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/SSI_Fernhout2001_web.html
http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/KFReviewPaperForSSIConference2001.pdf
It seems to me, as an outsider looking in, that the SSI organization and its
board are so oriented around the "Solar Power Satellites" approach to
justifying the financing of the first habitats that they have lost sight of
Gerry's larger space habitation dream. Still, it's clear from Gerry's
writings that unlike, say, the earlier JD Bernal, Gerry was very much a
capitalist at heart (despite getting burned repeatedly in his plans for
those companies to fund space habitats -- GeoStar, Lawn, etc, go figure).
That is no doubt also reflected in the composition of the board etc. making
it an awkward fit for my ideas of economic transcendence to a post-scarcity
society. I used to believe in Gerry's capitalist approach to space
habitation, but as the years went by, it just seemed more and more out of
date with what was happening with F/OSS and other exponential technology
trends. I think if Gerry were alive now he might embrace change, but, sadly,
he isn't, so the organization seems more a memorial to who he was when he
died rather than who he might be now had he lived past 65
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_O'Neill
(and he was a very dynamic and adaptable and creative thinker, another
reason I find all that very sad.) Is some future reality, take this as
license to abandon my own "plans" for OSCOMAK and stay close to the
"dreams". I did warn you all Gerry O'Neill called me a "dreamer", didn't I?
Well, I'm dreaming of an SSI that embraces self-replicating space habitats
and OSCOMAK right now. :-)
But alas, I think that, as usual, the social issues are harder than the
technical ones. The Space Frontier Foundation probably has similar issues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Frontier_Foundation
"Government’s role in unleashing the power of free enterprise is critical
and best accomplished by adopting the proven frontier paradigm of catalyzing
the private sector;" etc etc.
You know, in the late 1980s I gave a talk along the same lines about
environmental industry opportunities (like organic lawn care) related to
Stella/Sunrise, back before environmental thinking started to get woven into
everything we do. So I can't fault them too much. Much as I can't fault
Google to much for reinventing "Sunrise Universal Services"
http://groups.google.com/group/virgle/browse_thread/thread/419fc792d8a161f8
as "Project Virgle: Open Source Planet".
http://www.google.com/virgle/opensource.html
They'll learn, as I did. There are other ways to do things. More
compassionate ways. Ultimately more effective ways too IMHO.
Anyway, it sometimes seems to me that all the organizations dedicated to
space habitation in one form or another do anything *but* design space
habitats. :-( But there are some exceptions (LUF, maybe some Mars ones now),
and I'm not saying the other things they all do (CATS etc.) aren't
interesting or useful. Same as with NASA. It's all groundwork (literally in
most cases) of one form or another towards space habitation. I think there
is a lot of untapped interest out there in actually designing realistic
space habitations (even if you only get to visit your creations on the
computer for now). I have no worries as to people getting involved *if* we
had something solid and moving to involve them with. So I see that as the
most important priority.
And I am thankful to Google for getting this wounded bear back out of his
cave for yet another go at this (mostly by wounding him again :-). Maybe
OSCOMAK will take off this time as infrastructure for OpenVirgle. Tenth
time's the charm (or is it twentieth? :-)
One of my favorite Far Side cartoons:
http://www.susanohanian.org/show_commentary.php?id=181
"My other favorite panel pictures a huge fat mama bear, plopped on a pile of
bones in a cave. Her paws hold, like hand puppets, a pair of human skulls,
each grotesquely decked out with a red hunter's cap. Two young cubs gaze up
hopefully, with that pleading look parents know so well. "Okay, one more
time and it's off to bed for the both of you . . . 'Hey, [Sergey], Think
there are any bears in this old cave?' . . . 'I dunno, [Larry]. Let's take a
look.' "
--Paul Fernhout
Paul D. Fernhout
unbridled capitalism and financial obesity Sergey and Larry is some sense
represent (in part, through no real fault of their own :-) in conflict with
emerging post-scarcity values (like OpenVirgle represents).
This bear is mostly vegetarian and even puts spiders safely outside in the
summer and on houseplants in the winter (so they don't freeze).(*)
And I respect Sergey and Larry trying to walk a difficult and bouncy
tightrope in turbulent economic times moving towards a technological
singularity amidst lagging social and mythological change. Can't be easy.
--Paul Fernhout
(*)To catch and release insects, try a see-through plastic cup and a piece
of junk mail to slide carefully under it for spiders, or to quickly place
over it in midair for flies.
Doram
much less whatever registration would cost. Had it been scheduled on
the weekend before, my wife would have even been willing to miss me,
for a few hours each day for a presentation, from a camping trip in
the DC area we've had planned with a bunch of friends for a couple of
months now (which was actually more support than I was expecting, but
too bad the dates don't mesh). Unfortunately, there are a lot of days
taken from work, and too much logistics gone into the camping trip to
move the date, and it is sort of important in my life right now for
non-OpenVirgle reasons that I can't go into here right now, so
scheduling it out from under the other participants isn't an option
either.
For future reference, if you like, I live in CT, and my sister lives
in DC, and I usually make a trip once or twice a year to go visit her,
staying at her place (no Hotel costs!). This year has 2 trips, the
camping trip (5/24-5/26), and the DC Green Festival (which I thought
was November 8-9, but now, their website is down, and their partner
site lists the DC show as October 8-9, so that is up in the air kinda)
I am poor, though, so these trips have been budgeted mostly from my
tax returns, and have practically no leeway in them. Both New York
City and Boston are 2 hour drives from here, and a bit more doable for
me, as long as I can make them day trips. $80 or so between gas,
tolls, and parking for that is manageable.
Maybe we can do some research on what kind of conferences are going on
this season, and try and match at least some of them up with our
schedules.
http://www.greenfestivals.org/
http://www.coopamerica.org/greenbusiness/greenfestivals.cfm
Bryan Bishop
where I was going with it. So I'm sending it anyway.
- Bryan
On Saturday 10 May 2008, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
> I can also think of dozens of other channels to promote OpenVirgle or
> OSCOMAK (even including presentation to historical societies to put
> in more farming data into OSCOMAK;
Nah, it's not just a virgler promotional trip, I've been meaning to show
up at a few conferences for a while now. I keep watching them pass by.
The deadlines, I mean. Kind of like the Douglas-woosh complex. I guess
I'd have to go myself since I've been all over the net, I can't help
but think that space tech conferences might need the sort of
integration style that a metarepository represents.
> "History of Science Society"
> http://www.hssonline.org/
> and so on. Remember, when does history start? One second ago. :-)
So is that [History of [Science Society]], [[History of Science]
Society], [[History of] Science Society]], or even [History of Science,
Society]. Hm.
> I used to go to the SSI conference http://www.ssi.org/ (but that was
> closer and cheaper); IMHO it has descended into asteroid defense fear
> mongering unfortunately:
"SSI’s stated mission is: Opening the energy and material resources of
space for human benefit by completing the missing technological links
to make possible the productive use of the abundant resources in
space."
I don't think we're missing any technological links -- just
availability. Which our software infrastructure provides.
> "A Space Roadmap: Mine the Sky, Defend the Earth, Settle the
> Universe" http://ssi.org/?page_id=2
> (The "Defend" part, which is new and was getting played up.)
> I tried to fight that approach to no avail at one of the last
> conferences (was 2001 the last?) -- the group seemed looking for the
> magic bullet (or impact asteroid) so to speak, to open the purse of
> government or industry for space habitat building. This was rather
> than doing space habitats themselves, say through OSCOMAK, as I felt
> was more in line with the spirit of the organizations founding and
> the spirit of the Senior Associate program (I used to be on), sigh.
I was talking with some one a few weeks ago over the phone who asked a
very good question: why is it that people tend to look outside of our
own groups, whether specifically these more futurist groups or even in
our own communities and schools, instead of looking within to find the
ability to solve our problems? Why is this? If you asked these people,
no doubt they would say they do indeed want to get stuff happening, so
their intentions are in the right place, but what's not completing the
connection? (Me?)
> So SSI's approach is becoming more like a memorial than an active
> force, sadly, and as someone who sometimes scrimped and saved to keep
> up my five year pledge to them while in my early twenties, I'm
> disappointed. I've thought often over the years of redirecting that
> non-profit in OSCOMAK directions. I even talked with Freeman Dyson
> (the president) about it about ten years ago (mostly while walking
> across the Iowa State campus as he was en route to another talk). And
> then later I presented a poster paper on it and then the next
> conference the 2001 paper and tried to engage people on it, not very
> successfully).
> http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/SSI_Fernhout2001_web.html
> http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/KFReviewPaperForSSIConference20
>01.pdf It seems to me, as an outsider looking in, that the SSI
> organization and its board are so oriented around the "Solar Power
> Satellites" approach to justifying the financing of the first
> habitats that they have lost sight of Gerry's larger space habitation
> dream. Still, it's clear from Gerry's writings that unlike, say, the
> earlier JD Bernal, Gerry was very much a capitalist at heart (despite
> getting burned repeatedly in his plans for those companies to fund
> space habitats -- GeoStar, Lawn, etc, go figure). That is no doubt
> also reflected in the composition of the board etc. making it an
> awkward fit for my ideas of economic transcendence to a post-scarcity
> society. I used to believe in Gerry's capitalist approach to space
> habitation, but as the years went by, it just seemed more and more
> out of date with what was happening with F/OSS and other exponential
> technology trends. I think if Gerry were alive now he might embrace
> change, but, sadly, he isn't, so the organization seems more a
> memorial to who he was when he died rather than who he might be now
> had he lived past 65
Apparently my father has a copy of O'Neill's book. So I'll go read that.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_O'Neill
> (and he was a very dynamic and adaptable and creative thinker,
> another reason I find all that very sad.) Is some future reality,
> take this as license to abandon my own "plans" for OSCOMAK and stay
> close to the "dreams". I did warn you all Gerry O'Neill called me a
> "dreamer", didn't I? Well, I'm dreaming of an SSI that embraces
> self-replicating space habitats and OSCOMAK right now. :-)
> But alas, I think that, as usual, the social issues are harder than
> the technical ones. The Space Frontier Foundation probably has
> similar issues:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Frontier_Foundation
> "Government's role in unleashing the power of free enterprise is
> critical and best accomplished by adopting the proven frontier
> paradigm of catalyzing the private sector;" etc etc.
>
> You know, in the late 1980s I gave a talk along the same lines about
> environmental industry opportunities (like organic lawn care) related
> to Stella/Sunrise, back before environmental thinking started to get
> woven into everything we do. So I can't fault them too much. Much as
> I can't fault Google to much for reinventing "Sunrise Universal
> Services"
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/virgle/browse_thread/thread/419fc792d8
>a161f8 as "Project Virgle: Open Source Planet".
> http://www.google.com/virgle/opensource.html
>
> They'll learn, as I did. There are other ways to do things. More
> compassionate ways. Ultimately more effective ways too IMHO.
>
> Anyway, it sometimes seems to me that all the organizations dedicated
> to space habitation in one form or another do anything *but* design
> space habitats. :-( But there are some exceptions (LUF, maybe some
> Mars ones now), and I'm not saying the other things they all do
> (CATS etc.) aren't interesting or useful. Same as with NASA. It's all
> groundwork (literally in most cases) of one form or another towards
> space habitation. I think there is a lot of untapped interest out
> there in actually designing realistic space habitations (even if you
> only get to visit your creations on the computer for now). I have no
> worries as to people getting involved *if* we had something solid and
> moving to involve them with. So I see that as the most important
> priority.
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/