This seems like a good place to let people know that a friend and I
have been working on putting together a Bible program that is aimed at
assisting people to do Bible study with reference to original
languages. We've got Tischendorf's Greek New Testament as well as the
WLC (Hebrew OT) alongside the NET English text. The greek and hebrew
words are all linked to dictionaries to help reading and the NET has
translation notes (right now only the free set). It's really snappy at
doing searches and it's all in a nice clean, simple interface.
Some cool stuff:
1. Our texts in parallel actually line up correctly (if you're
familiar with original languages you'll have come across the fact that
often verse numbers differ - Verity's parallel is more advanced than
that).
2. We have infinite scrolling - you can see the end of chapter one and
the beginning of chapter two (which is especially useful when chapter
breaks are in dumb places)
3. Verity is open source. We've used Qt and CLucene and so you're more
than welcome to contribute. The source code is all up at
http://code.google.com/p/theverityproject/
Some planned stuff includes getting CCAT's LXX in and the SBLGNT with
parsing and dictionary references and also improving the search
functionality.
It would be great to hear some feedback from anyone here who uses it.
Unfortunately there is only a Windows installer right now but I'm
developing on Fedora and my friend is on a Mac and Ubuntu so if you're
comfortable compiling, it can work for you.
> This seems like a good place to let people know that a friend and I > have been working on putting together a Bible program that is aimed at > assisting people to do Bible study with reference to original > languages. We've got Tischendorf's Greek New Testament as well as the > WLC (Hebrew OT) alongside the NET English text. The greek and hebrew > words are all linked to dictionaries to help reading and the NET has > translation notes (right now only the free set). It's really snappy at > doing searches and it's all in a nice clean, simple interface.
> Some cool stuff: > 1. Our texts in parallel actually line up correctly (if you're > familiar with original languages you'll have come across the fact that > often verse numbers differ - Verity's parallel is more advanced than > that). > 2. We have infinite scrolling - you can see the end of chapter one and > the beginning of chapter two (which is especially useful when chapter > breaks are in dumb places) > 3. Verity is open source. We've used Qt and CLucene and so you're more > than welcome to contribute. The source code is all up at > http://code.google.com/p/theverityproject/
> Some planned stuff includes getting CCAT's LXX in and the SBLGNT with > parsing and dictionary references and also improving the search > functionality.
> It would be great to hear some feedback from anyone here who uses it. > Unfortunately there is only a Windows installer right now but I'm > developing on Fedora and my friend is on a Mac and Ubuntu so if you're > comfortable compiling, it can work for you.
> This seems like a good place to let people know that a friend and I > have been working on putting together a Bible program that is aimed at > assisting people to do Bible study with reference to original > languages. We've got Tischendorf's Greek New Testament as well as the > WLC (Hebrew OT) alongside the NET English text. The greek and hebrew > words are all linked to dictionaries to help reading and the NET has > translation notes (right now only the free set). It's really snappy at > doing searches and it's all in a nice clean, simple interface.
> Some cool stuff: > 1. Our texts in parallel actually line up correctly (if you're > familiar with original languages you'll have come across the fact that > often verse numbers differ - Verity's parallel is more advanced than > that). > 2. We have infinite scrolling - you can see the end of chapter one and > the beginning of chapter two (which is especially useful when chapter > breaks are in dumb places) > 3. Verity is open source. We've used Qt and CLucene and so you're more > than welcome to contribute. The source code is all up at > http://code.google.com/p/theverityproject/
> Some planned stuff includes getting CCAT's LXX in and the SBLGNT with > parsing and dictionary references and also improving the search > functionality.
> It would be great to hear some feedback from anyone here who uses it. > Unfortunately there is only a Windows installer right now but I'm > developing on Fedora and my friend is on a Mac and Ubuntu so if you're > comfortable compiling, it can work for you.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Open Scriptures" group. > To post to this group, send email to openscriptures@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > openscriptures+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/openscriptures?hl=en.
"There is other Bible software out there but unlike those programs, Verity is developed by people who use and care about the original languages (we're Bible college students)."
Rather presumptuous statement on your website.
Care to elaborate? Or will you simply take it down?
I concur. If you check out the Open Scriptures group you will find many people who have developed software for original language study who love the languages. Don't be sophomoric. :)
Ζῆ Χριστός! יְבָרֶכְךָ יָהְוֶה
--- On Mon, 3/5/12, Peter von Kaehne <ref...@gmx.net> wrote:
> From: Peter von Kaehne <ref...@gmx.net> > Subject: Re: Verity Bible Software > To: openscriptures@googlegroups.com > Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 10:09 AM > "There is other Bible software out > there but unlike those programs, > Verity is developed by people who use and care about the > original > languages (we're Bible college students)."
> Rather presumptuous statement on your website.
> Care to elaborate? Or will you simply take it down?
> I suggest latter.
> Cheers
> peter
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "Open Scriptures" group. > To post to this group, send email to openscriptures@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > openscriptures+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/openscriptures?hl=en.
I took a quick look at the Windows build, and it does handle parallel display of English and Hebrew better than anything else I am aware of (among FOSS alternatives), at least where I tested it. Your advanced parallel view is a feature worth touting, as is continuous scrolling, though that is not strictly unique. Well done.
Perhaps you could change your description to something like: "Verity is a program developed by Bible college students with a particular focus on studying the Bible in the original languages. Its advanced parallel display sets it apart from other free Bible software programs, and we hope to add more features that will serve those studying the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek."
> I concur. If you check out the Open Scriptures group you will find many people who have developed software for original language study who love the languages. Don't be sophomoric. :)
> Ζῆ Χριστός! יְבָרֶכְךָ יָהְוֶה
> --- On Mon, 3/5/12, Peter von Kaehne<ref...@gmx.net> wrote:
>> From: Peter von Kaehne<ref...@gmx.net> >> Subject: Re: Verity Bible Software >> To: openscriptures@googlegroups.com >> Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 10:09 AM >> "There is other Bible software out >> there but unlike those programs, >> Verity is developed by people who use and care about the >> original >> languages (we're Bible college students)."
>> Rather presumptuous statement on your website.
>> Care to elaborate? Or will you simply take it down?
>> I suggest latter.
>> Cheers
>> peter
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "Open Scriptures" group. >> To post to this group, send email to openscriptures@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> openscriptures+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/openscriptures?hl=en.
> I took a quick look at the Windows build, and it does handle parallel
> display of English and Hebrew better than anything else I am aware of
> (among FOSS alternatives), at least where I tested it. Your advanced
> parallel view is a feature worth touting, as is continuous scrolling,
> though that is not strictly unique. Well done.
> Perhaps you could change your description to something like: "Verity is
> a program developed by Bible college students with a particular focus on
> studying the Bible in the original languages. Its advanced parallel
> display sets it apart from other free Bible software programs, and we
> hope to add more features that will serve those studying the Bible in
> Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek."
> Daniel
> On 03/05/2012 12:27 PM, Darrell Smith wrote:
> > I concur. If you check out the Open Scriptures group you will find many people who have developed software for original language study who love the languages. Don't be sophomoric. :)
> > Ζῆ Χριστός! יְבָרֶכְךָ יָהְוֶה
> > --- On Mon, 3/5/12, Peter von Kaehne<ref...@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> From: Peter von Kaehne<ref...@gmx.net>
> >> Subject: Re: Verity Bible Software
> >> To: openscriptures@googlegroups.com
> >> Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 10:09 AM
> >> "There is other Bible software out
> >> there but unlike those programs,
> >> Verity is developed by people who use and care about the
> >> original
> >> languages (we're Bible college students)."
> >> Rather presumptuous statement on your website.
> >> Care to elaborate? Or will you simply take it down?
> >> I suggest latter.
> >> Cheers
> >> peter
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> >> Google Groups "Open Scriptures" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to openscriptures@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> openscriptures+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/openscriptures?hl=en.
> This seems like a good place to let people know that a friend and I > have been working on putting together a Bible program that is aimed > at > assisting people to do Bible study with reference to original > languages. We've got Tischendorf's Greek New Testament as well as the > WLC (Hebrew OT) alongside the NET English text. The greek and hebrew > words are all linked to dictionaries to help reading and the NET has > translation notes (right now only the free set). It's really snappy > at > doing searches and it's all in a nice clean, simple interface.
> Some cool stuff: > 1. Our texts in parallel actually line up correctly (if you're > familiar with original languages you'll have come across the fact > that > often verse numbers differ - Verity's parallel is more advanced than > that). > 2. We have infinite scrolling - you can see the end of chapter one > and > the beginning of chapter two (which is especially useful when chapter > breaks are in dumb places) > 3. Verity is open source. We've used Qt and CLucene and so you're > more > than welcome to contribute. The source code is all up at > http://code.google.com/p/theverityproject/
> Some planned stuff includes getting CCAT's LXX in and the SBLGNT with > parsing and dictionary references and also improving the search > functionality.
> It would be great to hear some feedback from anyone here who uses it. > Unfortunately there is only a Windows installer right now but I'm > developing on Fedora and my friend is on a Mac and Ubuntu so if > you're > comfortable compiling, it can work for you.
> This seems like a good place to let people know that a friend and I > have been working on putting together a Bible program that is aimed at > assisting people to do Bible study with reference to original > languages. We've got Tischendorf's Greek New Testament as well as the > WLC (Hebrew OT) alongside the NET English text. The greek and hebrew > words are all linked to dictionaries to help reading and the NET has > translation notes (right now only the free set). It's really snappy at > doing searches and it's all in a nice clean, simple interface.
> Some cool stuff: > 1. Our texts in parallel actually line up correctly (if you're > familiar with original languages you'll have come across the fact that > often verse numbers differ - Verity's parallel is more advanced than > that). > 2. We have infinite scrolling - you can see the end of chapter one and > the beginning of chapter two (which is especially useful when chapter > breaks are in dumb places) > 3. Verity is open source. We've used Qt and CLucene and so you're more > than welcome to contribute. The source code is all up at > http://code.google.com/p/theverityproject/
> Some planned stuff includes getting CCAT's LXX in and the SBLGNT with > parsing and dictionary references and also improving the search > functionality.
> It would be great to hear some feedback from anyone here who uses it. > Unfortunately there is only a Windows installer right now but I'm > developing on Fedora and my friend is on a Mac and Ubuntu so if you're > comfortable compiling, it can work for you.
Thanks Peter and others, let me elaborate an email discussion just so
you know what's in our minds.
Your criticism is valid: we've changed the website.
The reason we began developing Verity is the frustration with using
the free software that is available right now. Our strongs
dictionaries, for example, don't reference G1204 we've replaced the
ref with the corresponding word. We have also worked at lining up
verses correctly because of the frustration when working with original
languages in other free software where the texts don't line up. That
comment was really borne out of these sorts of frustrations. Sorry
about it though and thank you for the crit.
To elaborate on dleroux's post - he means our comment was hurtful and
untrue - not your feedback.
@oebible: I'm planning on emailing crossway to see whether they'll be
keen to let us use the ESV. We're also thinking about a more modular
approach which would open up that possibility for the public domain
data that's available but we don't want to clog things up with random
data that isn't actually beneficial. Thanks for the reminder though,
I'll fire that email off today.
@Robin: could you give more information about your problem (you're
welcome to email me rather than writing here)?
And again, please keep the feedback coming, I must say I wasn't
expecting such a rapid response - this is great!
> The reason we began developing Verity is the frustration with using > the free software that is available right now. Our strongs > dictionaries, for example, don't reference G1204 we've replaced the > ref with the corresponding word.
This has come up from time to time on CrossWire too. I think at least one of our frontends (BpBible) puts directly the Greek instead of a number and a dictionary entry in the corner.
The reason the others do are two fold: 1) a large percentage of our users seem to have a near sentimental attachment to seeing visible Strong numbers, instead of accepting that these are simply the pre-computing equivalent of pointers and 2) (more crucially) people who do not read Greek well have often paper dictionaries which are Strong encoded. These dictionaries are often a lot better than what is available freely/as public domain.
I do not think that this is cast in stone. If enough users want a change, I am sure it would come easily. Certainly in Xiphos where I am most involved in.
> We have also worked at lining up > verses correctly because of the frustration when working with original > languages in other free software where the texts don't line up.
Ok, at CrossWire we have introduced a couple of years ago the ability for our texts to have alternative/arbitrary versifications. We have modules now in practically all important versification schemes and we still add schemes as they become apparent. We have not yet introduced fixing parallelisation - mostly because we lack reliable data for all schemes we use. The data published by CCEL seems to be unreliable, so we have started working on our own. If you have data - this would be extremely helpful to push this forward.
Re modules and other texts - I suggest strongly that you have a look at the sword engine as a backend, instead of your current choice of a SQL backend - the reason I am suggesting this is
a) you will have automatically access to a huge number of Original text modules, including correct versification and the like, but also modern modules like the ESV.
b) you gain in methods to search etc - it is all already there
c) your efforts to push parallelisation forward would be hugely appreciated by us - it is very much the next step for us - but we need skilled help. We are nearly there though I would think.
What I mean here is data to connect, say Gen23:45 in one text with Gen24:1 in another and Gen 24:4 in a third. (the references are made up and I am at the moment not even sure if a Gen23:45 exists).
This data is hard to come by at a verse level. It can be created relatively fast by hand at a chapter start/end level, but even then there are flaws in the middle. So we are plodding along...
And before we do not have at least for our main versifications the data we need we can not easily throw it together into a useful application.
But any pointers re reliable sources of such data are highly appreciated.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Peter von Kaehne <ref...@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 06/03/12 06:17, James Cuénod wrote:
> > The reason we began developing Verity is the frustration with using > > the free software that is available right now. Our strongs > > dictionaries, for example, don't reference G1204 we've replaced the > > ref with the corresponding word.
> This has come up from time to time on CrossWire too. I think at least > one of our frontends (BpBible) puts directly the Greek instead of a > number and a dictionary entry in the corner.
BPBible gives you the option of showing one of Strong's Numbers, transliterated original language word, pronunciation or original language word. However, it's worth noting that this is only when showing equivalent words inline for an enabled module (e.g. in the KJV). Showing WLC or WHNU or Tischendorf in parallel with any other version will display just the original language text, because that's what the text of the module is. The dictionary in which Strong's definitions are looked up in (which I think James is referring to) will be the default Strong's dictionaries, typically CrossWire's StrongsHebrew and StrongsGreek. These are indexed by number and do not include the original language text of the definition (though StrongsRealGreek and StrongsRealHebrew will include that original language text).
Just to make it clear, areas where BPBible (and quite probably other SWORD software) would differ from Verity: 1. Clicking on words in the original language Bibles would not open the equivalent reference in a Strong's dictionary (though if the module was embedded with Strongs numbers and they were displayed separately in some form the separate form would be able to be clicked on). 2. Merging the two original language texts seamlessly into one parallel view (using Hebrew in OT and Greek in NT) is not possible. 3. The Strong's dictionary displayed would by default neither be as neatly formatted or give as much prominence to the original language.
Some other suggestions/comments about Verity: 1. The application seems pretty well polished. Display is neat, the content in the dictionary is well-formatted and logical, etc. I like the touch of striping alternate verses different colours for a table view: it helps distinguishing things without standing out too much.
2. On the other hand, Verity seems very limited to a few particular use cases. While I could probably make BPBible work like Verity in the ways I identified it doesn't, you might have more trouble making Verity support the general reader more interested in reading just one Bible at a time rather than in parallel (then again, you may not care).
3. I haven't looked at how it is implemented, but continuous scrolling in Verity feels very sluggish. You get to the end of a chapter and then it seems like you wait for many seconds before the next chapter comes. BPBible also implements it, and I find it almost always has the next chapter loaded before I get down to the end of the current chapter.
4. As far as I can tell, there is no way to look up an entry in the dictionary without finding the word and clicking on it in the text. You may want to be able to just type in a word and find its entry.
5. For notes, original language definitions, etc. BPBible will show the note or definition in a tooltip rather than having it appear in a separate Window that may or may not be shown by default. I would usually prefer that way of operating.
Hopefully these comments are helpful rather than troublesome.
The reason the others do are two fold: 1) a large percentage of our
> users seem to have a near sentimental attachment to seeing visible > Strong numbers, instead of accepting that these are simply the > pre-computing equivalent of pointers and 2) (more crucially) people who > do not read Greek well have often paper dictionaries which are Strong > encoded. These dictionaries are often a lot better than what is > available freely/as public domain.
> I do not think that this is cast in stone. If enough users want a > change, I am sure it would come easily. Certainly in Xiphos where I am > most involved in.
> > We have also worked at lining up > > verses correctly because of the frustration when working with original > > languages in other free software where the texts don't line up.
> Ok, at CrossWire we have introduced a couple of years ago the ability > for our texts to have alternative/arbitrary versifications. We have > modules now in practically all important versification schemes and we > still add schemes as they become apparent. We have not yet introduced > fixing parallelisation - mostly because we lack reliable data for all > schemes we use. The data published by CCEL seems to be unreliable, so we > have started working on our own. If you have data - this would be > extremely helpful to push this forward.
> Re modules and other texts - I suggest strongly that you have a look at > the sword engine as a backend, instead of your current choice of a SQL > backend - the reason I am suggesting this is
I would second this suggestion. In developing BPBible we have had problems with SWORD, but if we had had to negotiate with copyright holders and do other such non-programming tasks then the project would probably never have got off the ground.
Note also that GPLv3 is unfortunately not compatible with the GPLv2 that SWORD uses. If you were to decide to use SWORD you would need to relicense with a GPLv2 compatible license.
> a) you will have automatically access to a huge number of Original text > modules, including correct versification and the like, but also modern > modules like the ESV.
> b) you gain in methods to search etc - it is all already there
> c) your efforts to push parallelisation forward would be hugely > appreciated by us - it is very much the next step for us - but we need > skilled help. We are nearly there though I would think.
> Yours
> Peter
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Open Scriptures" group. > To post to this group, send email to openscriptures@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > openscriptures+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/openscriptures?hl=en.
But any pointers re reliable sources of such data are highly appreciated.
The SBL Handbook of Style has data for English (NRSV, I
assume), MT, and LXX in an appendix. However, the Handbook is
copyrighted, so we would have to ask permission to use it. But
perhaps the Verity project has data it is willing to share.
CCAT also has their parallel, between the MT and LXX. I'm slowly beginning to tap that. Of course it's under the CCAT license. My WLC also has the matchup between MT and 'English' (it's listed as BHS, from its source, but KJV or some such would be a better indicator.)
> On 03/06/2012 03:15 AM, Peter von Kaehne wrote: >> But any pointers re reliable sources of such data are highly appreciated./ >> / > /The SBL Handbook of Style/ has data for English (NRSV, I assume), MT, > and LXX in an appendix. However, the Handbook is copyrighted, so we > would have to ask permission to use it. But perhaps the Verity project > has data it is willing to share.
> Daniel > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Open Scriptures" group. > To post to this group, send email to openscriptures@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > openscriptures+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/openscriptures?hl=en.
The patch is by no means pretty and not likely bug free, but it might give you an idea of how your team could use the SWORD engine to access our fairly large library of books.
Everything we do is to help projects like yours, so please feel free to use what you'd like.
> This seems like a good place to let people know that a friend and I > have been working on putting together a Bible program that is aimed at > assisting people to do Bible study with reference to original > languages. We've got Tischendorf's Greek New Testament as well as the > WLC (Hebrew OT) alongside the NET English text. The greek and hebrew > words are all linked to dictionaries to help reading and the NET has > translation notes (right now only the free set). It's really snappy at > doing searches and it's all in a nice clean, simple interface.
> Some cool stuff: > 1. Our texts in parallel actually line up correctly (if you're > familiar with original languages you'll have come across the fact that > often verse numbers differ - Verity's parallel is more advanced than > that). > 2. We have infinite scrolling - you can see the end of chapter one and > the beginning of chapter two (which is especially useful when chapter > breaks are in dumb places) > 3. Verity is open source. We've used Qt and CLucene and so you're more > than welcome to contribute. The source code is all up at > http://code.google.com/p/theverityproject/
> Some planned stuff includes getting CCAT's LXX in and the SBLGNT with > parsing and dictionary references and also improving the search > functionality.
> It would be great to hear some feedback from anyone here who uses it. > Unfortunately there is only a Windows installer right now but I'm > developing on Fedora and my friend is on a Mac and Ubuntu so if you're > comfortable compiling, it can work for you.
