Circular Multilateral Barter

[Evgeni Pandurski]

Hi. I found a very interesting discussion about circular bartering:

http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/500c91252c95ff36?pli=1

So, I think you might be interested in the open-source project I've
been working on for the last 2 years: "Circular Multilateral Barter".

You can check it out at https://www.multiswap.net/about/

You can download the source code here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/cmb/

From my experience, it is kind of hard for people to wrap their minds
around the way multiswap.net (and circular bettering in general) works. But
for sure, there is a lot that it can provide, which is not obvious at
first glance.

For example, one thing that is not obvious at first glance is that
multiswap.net allows everybody to issue their own trade-backed currencies,
which others can use to pay each other with. So, one way of thinking
of it is as a "multi-LETS", plus there is a open market place for exchanging
one currency for another (via circular trade).

The current implementation (which you see at https://www.multiswap.net/)
a fully centralized one, but this is simply because it was easier to
program it this way. There is nothing that prevents it from being
partially or fully decentralized. I think you will find this paper interesting:

http://www.multiswap.net/doc/cmb-general.pdf

I am currently tying to figure out if multiswap.net can help
real-world communities,
and eventually what should be improved in the software, so that it works better
for them. If you have the time to explore it, I would be happy to hear
your opinion, and of course, I will gladly answer all your questions.

Regards,
Evgeni Pandurski

[Edward A. Dobson]

Evgeni, you should look up a gentleman named John Turmel. He is a Canadian who has been trying to get LETS systems adopted by everyone for years.
Message me at mrh...@hotmail.com and I will send you his email address.

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[Lee Nelson]

> I am currently tying to figure out if multiswap.net can help
> real-world communities,

Here is my MultiSwap profile.

I want to trade for 3-D printer components.

https://www.multiswap.net/816255538/traders/816255538/

[John Griessen]

On 04/11/2011 08:50 PM, Lee Nelson wrote:
> I want to trade for 3-D printer components.
>
> https://www.multiswap.net/816255538/traders/816255538/

I can't see a profile even after I create one of my own.

John

[Lee Nelson]

https://www.multiswap.net/816255538/traders/816255538/

I can't see a profile even after I create one of my own.

That link goes to a login page for me. It is labeled as "My Business Card"

I think to make contact with another trader you have to click "My Parnerts" -> "Add a Partner"

So enter my profile ID number in that box "816255538"

Can anyone find an easier way to search for products and services?
 

[Evgeni Pandurski]

To see the profile, you have to enter this URL:

https://www.multiswap.net/816255538/

Or you may go to "Find customer" or "My partners"/"Find new partner" and
enter the trader ID -- 816255538 in this case.

You really have to read the manual (click "Help") in order to figure out
how the system works. I know nobody reads manuals, but I did not
succeeded in making the UI that intuitive :-(

[Evgeni Pandurski]

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Lee Nelson <technol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> https://www.multiswap.net/816255538/traders/816255538/
>>
>> I can't see a profile even after I create one of my own.
>>
>
> That link goes to a login page for me. It is labeled as "My Business Card"

Yes. This link shows the login page in case your session has expired. After
you log in, it will show the profile of trader 816255538 (which if you are
this trader is your "Business card").

>
> I think to make contact with another trader you have to click "My Parnerts"
> -> "Add a Partner"

You can try adding me as your partner, my trader ID is 751181894. Then you
will be able to add some example products from my price-list.

>
> So enter my profile ID number in that box "816255538"
>
> Can anyone find an easier way to search for products and services?

Well, currently the only way is to know the trader ID of the partner
you want to buy things from. The reason is that traders identity is
not verified. So you may find a trader that pretend to be someone else.
In order to be certain that you are dealing with the right person, he has
to give you his ID, throughout a secure channel (for example in person).

A local directory might be created and managed locally, so that people
can securely advertise and search for products.

The best way to understand the system is to create 2 (or more)
account and try to arrange a fake circular trade -- do not worry --
you can create as many fake accounts as you like. Just do not
advertise products that you do not offer to your friends. (As long
as nobody knows your fake trader ID -- it can not not do harm)

Evgeni

[Lee Nelson]

I would like to be able to search for goods. I am not concerned if others are not who they say they are.
I am offering engineering services - if it is open source, I would do it for free anyway. I can not be cheated.

Please include my profile and "Items" in any public directory.

Thanks,
Lee Nelson

[DoktorJ]

It kind of seems to me that hiding the possible trading partners makes
large-scale circular trading nearly impossible. Let's say I want to
trade item 1 for item 3 via item 2. That is 3 different people I have
to find and set up a contract with and for circular trading to work on
a large scale, it seems likely that there will be even more
intermediaries introduced into the process. It is easily conceivable
that you could have 5 or more steps in the chain to get from the item
you are offering to the item you want. Matchmaking should be handled
by the system as opposed to requiring you to manually set up your
supply chain (though I guess an option to specify your own chain would
be good to have as an option). Some form of identity system is
important, but it seems to me that an Ebay style system of trader
reviews would work fairly well. Identity verification would still be
an issue, so if you want to trade with a specific person, you would
still have to exchange ID's and set up the trade manually, but I don't
think most people already know someone who has what they need or
they'd be trading already (also I highly doubt that any of us want a
draconian ID verification system like what Ebay has, review system
yes, ID verification no). Don't think I'm bashing your idea,
though. You've made a very good start. I'm just offering up some
suggestions.

[Evgeni Pandurski]

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 4:24 PM, DoktorJ <thedo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It kind of seems to me that hiding the possible trading partners makes
> large-scale circular trading nearly impossible.  Let's say I want to
> trade item 1 for item 3 via item 2.  That is 3 different people I have
> to find and set up a contract with and for circular trading to work on
> a large scale, it seems likely that there will be even more
> intermediaries introduced into the process.  It is easily conceivable
> that you could have 5 or more steps in the chain to get from the item
> you are offering to the item you want.  Matchmaking should be handled
> by the system as opposed to requiring you to manually set up your
> supply chain (though I guess an option to specify your own chain would
> be good to have as an option).  Some form of identity system is
> important, but it seems to me that an Ebay style system of trader
> reviews would work fairly well.  Identity verification would still be
> an issue, so if you want to trade with a specific person, you would
> still have to exchange ID's and set up the trade manually, but I don't
> think most people already know someone who has what they need or
> they'd be trading already (also I highly doubt that any of us want a
> draconian ID verification system like what Ebay has, review system
> yes, ID verification no).  Don't think I'm bashing your idea,
> though.   You've made a very good start.  I'm just offering up some
> suggestions.

Thank you for your comments.

The user is not supposed to find paths "manually". The users
has to do the following:

1) Register in the system (and get a trader ID)

2) Register all the products (or currencies) that he provides, together
with their prices-- "My pricelist".

3) Register the amounts of goods for sale that he has.

4) Advertise his trader ID to his clients. He can use the local "CMB club"-site
for that, or ha can use a TV-ad -- the point is that the clients has to get the
trader ID of the supplier.

5) Add to "My partners" all the suppliers of goods and services whose IDs
the user can find, from which he is willing to buy. Add the needed products
to "My shopping list".

6) Specify the exact amounts that he wants to buy in "My shopping list" .

So, the basic idea is that you declare what you sell, and what you want
to buy. And then just wait for the system to find circular deals for you.

As you probably figured out, you it may take a long time before you get
any deal at all. But as more traders join the system, more circles get
closed, so deals will pop-up. The problem is that there is a vicious circle
that has to be broken -- if you have few users, the system is not very
useful, but if it is not useful -- users do not come in.

Evgeni

[DoktorJ]

I see. That makes a lot more sense, thanks for the clarification.

On Apr 13, 11:33 am, Evgeni Pandurski <epandur...@gmail.com> wrote: