There's a lot of discussion about this on openmanufacturing.net and
p2pfoundation.net that might be of interest here--
http://p2pfoundation.net/
In particular:
http://p2pfoundation.net/Abundance_vs._Scarcity
There's also some pages on the site about "open money" and "new
monies", but personally I'm not too interested in pursuing that
because if you're going to end up with a post-scarcity model, which I
think would qualify as an advanced civilization, why would you want to
implement money? And if you didn't, is there no longer an economy?
Even though things are still happening?
One issue that is underexplored in this territory are "transistional
issues". You don't just flip a switch and suddenly everything is
post-scarcity; you don't flip a switch and suddenly the Artemisanians
are no longer going hungry, etc. So, I don't know how to address this.
Nathan Cravens has spent some time thinking on this and might comment
(so I'm cc'ing the openmanufacturing list).
Yes, but I thought we were talking about the people in the fictional
country that get screwed? I'd be more concerned about people not being
able to meet basic needs in these scenarios at first, in the case of
sudden economic collapse and such, rather than be concerned about the
vanishing 'economy'.
People who structure their lives around a single job are relying on
that "one commodity" (their job), and when it goes away in a puff of
smoke, that's what I'm talking about for 'transitional issues'.
"Welcome, you have now become unemployed. We regret to inform you that
there aren't many openings for jobs, and the alternative to working to
live hasn't been able to fully scale and deploy at this time. Good
luck." <- That's kind of what I mean. :-/
Amorphous computing/fabrication isn't quite what everyone expects.
It's not the same as traditional engineering. I'm preaching to the
choir, everyone around here knows this. Insert notes here on the
packaging of projects, blah blah blah wouldn't it be optimal to have a
lot of tiny little tools that we could combine into a synthetic
biology compiler, etc. :-) (I've said this all before, nothing new, or
so it seems.)
On a more serious of a note, a few months ago I started talking about
the concept of a bioreactor or some type of tank that could be fed
nutrients and such and be a fully contained, self-replicating toolkit
for do-it-yourself bio. One of the major hurdles is the construction
of a completely biological DNA synthesizer (another major hurdle is
specialty purified chemicals for specific protocols/recipes). There's
a set of ideas that I worked on, with some others, for a "retarded
polymerase" that would probably take an entire lab to develop over
many years, which would respond to some wavelength of light to attach
a certain nucleotide to a batch of DNA; issues with this idea is that
it's slow, slow and still slow. A "writozyme" if you will. Also the
experimental methodology to construct it requires something like a
triple-tiered directed selection experiment, aptamers, and a number of
other things that make me increasingly less optimistic.
Another issue to consider is that the majority of lab tech is
manufactured using giant bulky milling machines, CNC machines and so
on as you mention, Tom. So the dependency requirements on lab stuff is
already requiring some industrial ecology. I don't know about
specialty chemical factories that Dow, Sigma-Aldrich and friends are
using, Meredith might know something about IDT that she could
elaborate on though? Lab instrumentation is also another issue.
Growing perfect pipettes doesn't seem likely, but I can guess that
there are alternatives that we will have to grow from the ground up.
What may end up happening anyway is the mutual and gradual growth of
both the toolkits for the do-it-yourself synthetic biology platforms
in conjunction with fablabs and open manufacturing. I'm kind of
jealous of you Boston folk, since this is already happening up where
you are.
Any ideas on completely biologically manufactured biolabware (esp.
synthesizers) always welcome though.
People who structure their lives around a single job are relying on
that "one commodity" (their job), and when it goes away in a puff of
smoke, that's what I'm talking about for 'transitional issues'.
Anyway, I feel Bryan is right in wanting to separate out some issues. Here
are six broad areas of exploration I see right now that have been discussed
on this list:
* The world how it was historically (like what has been tried and thought
about, all the "-ologies" and "-isms", and also how they would relate to
open manufacturing and related ideals, as in, how does open manufacturing
affirm or invalidate the principles of, say, "the iron law of wages" or
"hunter/gatherer ideals" or the almost half-century old "Triple Revolution"
document.)
* The world as it is right now, and how it might be patched up (with open
manufacturing or the open enterprise or other alternatives like a new
currency to redirect the flow of manufacturing, for example, can Iceland be
saved with open manufacturing under the current dominant economic system? Or
could an Icelandic electric-Krona help it right now?)
* The world in transition to a post-scarcity future (and how open
manufacturing relates to that, as well as other proposals like, how can a
slowly expanding open source movement bring abundance to more and more
people? Or, can a different sort of currency bring about a better future
with manufacturing happening in a more open and sustainable way, like an
electric-based dollar, or a basic income guarantee, and so on). There is
some overlap here with the previous topic of patching up the world -- I'm
not combining them though because there may be people who do believe in open
manufacturing but don't believe in the possibility or desirability of a
post-scarcity future moving beyond conventional economics.
* The world as a fully post-scarcity society in the future and how it would
work (once we got there, like, how what are the implications of every home
having a 3D printer or similar system at the neighborhood level, such as
what it means to be able to print toys, or print agricultural robots to grow
our food, or print solar panels to collect power, or print diamandoid
materials to build our spacecraft, or print machines to make more 3D printer
toner from air, water, rock, and print shredders that can recycle no longer
needed printed objects back into 3D printer toner). A lot of this entails
speculation, and relates to a lot of sci-fi, from authors like Vinge, Banks,
Hogan, Brain, and so on.
* The world approaching "The Singularity" or a series of singularity-like
transitions, and a how open manufacturing values and approaches may interact
with a singularity. Again, there is overlap here with the post-scarcity
world idea, but there are people who may believe in one but not the other,
and some who believe in both, and some who believe in neither.
* Interwoven with all those societal discussions are the specific technical
artifacts we might be talking about and the process of actually designing
them in detail. But this interconnection would be more obvious if we had
some critical mass of manufacturing designs and metadata encoded in common
open formats and usable for analysis and simulation to explore all these
areas (historic, current, transitional, post-scarcity, singularity).
If there is an argument for a "openmanufacturing-dev" list like Bryan made,
that might be a clearer boundary -- the focus on making such a system (or
systems, SKDB, OSCOMAK, fenn's Gingery-related work, open biotech, and so
on, maybe in partnership with others, or using existing platforms and
standards) so it may be used to inform general discussion here, like support
detailed simulations of alternative economics and sustainability. Though
even then, should discussions of simulations be on which list? Or building
simulations is discussed on that one, and running simulations is discussed
on this one? But one could possibly work that out down the road.
All of these are overlapping, yet distinct, areas of discussion. But
discussions can quickly go from one area to another. So, amplifying on
Bryan's theme, we can wonder how open manufacturing relates to each of these
areas, and also ask how this list itself or "open manufacturing" is
presented to the public in this context. Are we emphasizing one of these six
areas? Or all? I feel all six areas have been fair game, and that's why I
feel Bryan is right to focus on the more general statement for the list;
also, it is not clear what solutions will emerge from discussions, so I feel
it is premature for the group as a whole to endorse one approach (beyond the
virtue of open manufacturing using open source methods, which ties all these
things together). Still, the clearer we have all this in mind, maybe the
stronger the argument can be for a separate dev list like Bryan started?
I started a mailing list related to the simulation of enterprises from a
chaordic perspective in 2002, but did not push that forward for various
reasons: (please don't sign up for it now, the link is just included to look
at the archives where I posted some links and comments).
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/simulchaord-discuss/
Here is a slashdot article on "Simulating Societies" which was a key citation:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/11/0030236
And here is the Atlantic article it relates to:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200204/rauch
Anyway, simulation is one way to bridge this gap from general informed talk
to at least some notion of scientific exploration and repeatable experiment.
(Maybe we're all part of someone else's simulation of such issues. :-)
For me, when we are using an open manufacturing database to do detailed
simulation of a society (or even just in a game :-), I will feel we have
made a huge step forward. You can see a very crude paper prototype of such a
system here:
http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/prototype.htm
But with that said, I'm talked out for the moment myself :-) and I'm
starting to feel like fenn and wanting to get back to development, focusing
mostly on the sixth area, with content related to the third area of
transition, through making more free and open source software and related
manufacturing content. :-) That isn't meant to say talking about other areas
is not worthwhile, I'm just saying how I feel myself right now. I tend to go
in these kind of cycles, talk for some weeks, program for some weeks, get
distracted for some weeks, then repeat the cycle in some permutation. :-)
--Paul Fernhout
Don't I know you from somewhere?
> Anyways, I'd first like to remind you all that political philosophy is
> something that people go and get doctorates in. That's not to say
> these discussions are futile, but that a lot of people have been
> thinking about these things for a very long time, and a huge amount of
> justification is needed for any new claim. Second I haven't given as
> much attention to this list as I should have; sorry if I misunderstand
> any of you. Here's my view on this whole issue though.
If you'd like to package up some hardware for us instead, that'd be
good. Please go right ahead:
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/8465dc23eb48e332/e185e43b59db6b7d?lnk=gst&q=todo#e185e43b59db6b7d
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/3f991441a6860b51#
> I could start with a long proof starting with the social contract, but
Let's not.
> I think you can all fill in the gaps if I start with this quote from
> Burke:
> "Government is a contrivance of human wisdom to provide for human
> wants."
>
> Democracy is here to decide what these wants are, and how the
Are you trying to say what is, what is not, or are you reading from a
dictionary? In reality nothing really follows this precisely, so let's
not pretend.
> government should provide them.
>
> Here's an obvious one: if you have nine healthy people, one sick
> person, and one pill, I think the pill goes to the sick person. It
> doesn't matter if the sick person worked hard, or if the pill cost a
> lot to manufacture. No one else has a use for it, and if they become
> unhealthy they won't have a chance in the future to work hard. Also if
> they are born sick then it was through no fault of their own. That is,
> treat equals equally.
You don't get it though: you're assuming a scarce model where we only
have one pill. There are many, many available materials; the trick is
sustainability and making sure you have a bootstrapped process so that
you're continuously growing your required material base for your
population growth. Otherwise you're just asking yourself to fail, from
a technical point of view.
> If there are ten people on an asteroid colony, all of who want to make
> necklaces, but only one pound of gold, it is my intuition that it
> should go to the one of them who works the hardest. Yet on a colony
But we're not here to decide who it is to go to. If you want your
asteroid colony to operate like that, once we "hand you the keys" as
it were, then fine, go ahead. But personally I'm not going to be too
fond of that sort of system.
> where gold is needed to keep some water filter or other vital
> equipment running, it might be justifiable to say it goes directly to
> the state. The democracy is needed to interpret such needs.
Maybe within your colony's social structure, so be it. But this has
nothing to do with the fundamental technical possibilities of the
myriad of possible system configurations.
> If you have a huge amount of iron, and make pipes out of it using
> robots and solar panels, then pipes should be given away for free. It
> takes a very small amount of effort for one person to make sure the
> factory runs, and it takes an initial cost to build the factory. The
I don't know what type of 'cost' you are talking about. The imagined
type of cost, or the type that actually matters?
> people can volunteer to make the factory or the government can. It
> really doesn't matter because a perfect democracy IS the people. It
Read up on some mathematics, like Godel, to see how this isn't
technically possible. Not that I'm against you attempting to figure
out how to effectively apply your values to situations, that's good,
let's just not fool ourselves though re: representation, values,
Godel, and the incompleteness theorems (completeness/consistency
tradeoffs).
> simply has a formalized way of doing things, and if I was that guy
> maintaining the factory I would feel a lot more comfortable getting my
> paycheck from the government than by occasionally getting some
> chickens from the neighbors if they remember me.
You assume that your neighbor is less standardized? But then you're
just assuming a point that I can't argue with.
> Can that situation one day evolve into a Voyage From Yesteryear
> statelessness in which you walk to the market and take whatever you
> want? Sure. But statelessness is the holy grail that Marx was aiming
> for with communism, and I would advise against it.
No, Marx wasn't thinking of the technologies we've been discussing.
> Until that point, we will have some goods that are genuinely scarce.
> Gold and platinum perhaps. And a democracy is still needed to
> interpret the needs and distributive principles of those goods.
I'm not sure that this is true.
> The reason we don't see simple goods like pipes or food becoming free
> is because they are in the hands of corporations, which can reliably
Although we do see sometimes piping systems given for free to third
world countries by student engineering organizations on university
campuses.
> be depended upon to make money for their investors. There is no money
> to be made on something that's free, and our population has not even
Yes, but some here might argue that there's value/wealth [but I don't
care much :-)].
> thought of handing such roles over to the government. So there are two
> things we need to be doing, convincing the people that the government
> (or volunteers if one believes the government too imperfect a mirror)
> can take care of abundant goods, and finding ways to make goods
> abundant where corporations have taken side steps.
I don't know if we should be trying to "convert" and "convince"
people. I'd rather just run some small scale projects and scale up
from there, Factor E Farm being an excellent example, which is also
somewhat doing the second part that you mention.
> One major critique I have so far is the idea of a guaranteed wage.
> That is an over simplification of things, since money can be used to
I agree, it is an oversimplification. It began being mentioned here as
a solution to "transitional issues" but I don't think that it solves
that problem, really. The problem that I was originally talking about
was where you have somebody lose their job, or something, and if they
wanted to convert over to "the network" -- a post-scarcity system
perhaps -- would just be impractical because the industrial supply
chain is still partially monetary, throwing the rest of the monetary
system kind of out of whack (a fountain of gold, as it were). Among
other issues.
> buy anything, including luxuries and health care which are very
> different. Also it does not treat equals equally, as a sick black kid
> born in a poor neighborhood gets the same amount as a rich person in
> some models. Instead I would say give out food, health care, and
> shelter to anyone who needs them. And since food should be given out
> for free in the first place because it is already in the "abundant"
> category of goods, that's just health care and shelter (and of course
> anything else anyone needs to be able to flourish).
>
> -Gavin Fauss
> who would like to be able to get a job, but who's previous identity on
> this list should be easy enough to guess.
- Bryan
who should be coding.