CONSERVATIVES LIE ABOUT NOT RAISING TAXES
Robert Peffers
Last Updated: Friday, November 27, 2009 | 1:40 PM ET
CBC News
The federal Conservatives are set to introduce legislation next week
that would allow provinces to harmonize the provincial sales tax and
federal GST on products and services.
While the legislation will not be put to a confidence vote, it would
put the Liberals in the position of either supporting a measure
unpopular with consumers or opposing the wishes of the B.C. and
Ontario Liberal governments. Both have moved ahead with plans to merge
the taxes.
"This is not a complicated decision," according to draft talking
points prepared for Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, obtained by The
Canadian Press. "Either Parliament supports the right of the provinces
to choose a harmonized value-added tax or it does not."
"This legislation will have the support of the Official Opposition or
it will not. If it does, we expect the bill to win approval before the
Christmas recess," the notes say.
The NDP and the Bloc Québécois oppose the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST).
Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff has said that if the Liberals formed
a government, they would not cancel HST agreements signed with the
provinces. But it is unclear whether they will support this proposed
federal bill.
The Liberal governments of Ontario and B.C. have moved ahead with
plans to merge the taxes.
The HST would raise the price on some consumer goods that had
previously been exempt from sales tax. The National Citizens Coalition
estimates the HST will cost the average taxpayer an additional $800 to
$1,000 annually.
But The Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses says
harmonization will save business $100 million a year in reduced red
tape.
Upon introducing legislation to harmonize their province's eight per
cent sales tax with the five per cent GST, Ontario Premier Dalton
McGuinty pointed to a study the government commissioned that shows
moving to a single sales tax will help create almost 600,000 jobs over
10 years.
Tory House leader Jay Hill and Flaherty met with Liberal House leader
Ralph Goodale on the matter on Thursday, in an attempt to find a
compromise.
Goodale's office would not say where the Liberals stand.
"We want to see the bill before we do anything," a spokesman said.
With files from The Canadian Press
http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2009/11/27/hst-conservatives.html
Joe
> While the legislation will not be put to a confidence vote,
Why a no confidence vote? It shows the split inside the Conservative
caucus. The move will help paper over the cracks and give the
dissenters some political cover. Some Ontario MPs are worried about
the reaction back home. A few, like Larry Miller from Bruce Grey Owen
Sound, went as far as to say that the feds were not encouraging
harmonization. The local Conservative MPP, Bill Murdoch, called
Miller on it.
Larry was one of the MPs caught giving out big fake cheques with his
own name on it instead of the taxpayers of Canada. A class act.
M I Wakefield
"Robert Peffers" <auldbobp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f4b2b28-321e-4534...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Tories set to introduce HST bill
So the Tories acting on the request of two Liberal provincial governments is
now a bad thing?
Oh, yes ... I fixed your header.
Joe
> So the Tories acting on the request of two Liberal provincial governments is
> now a bad thing?
The feds were the ones pushing the idea. Now some, like Lary Miller,
are trying to hide.
Chom Noamsky
Do you live in B.C.? I do and nobody considers our government liberal.
The people who vote Conservative vote BC Liberal, and before that they
voted Social Credit and PC. The BC Liberals are politically very
right-wing, as much as Alberta's Wild Rose Party, and only "Liberal" in
name. And Peffers is right on this one, the HST is a tax grab.
simplicity
> M I Wakefield wrote:
Whatever... True libbies are never wrong, eh? And when they do
something wrong it's because they suddenly morphed into cons. Hence,
libbies always good, cons always bad, end of proof. And the "da pruf
is da pruf" as one libby once stated in front of the nation, eh?
Not so, Chapsky, if I am to believie my premier McGuinty. It is,
apparently, to be, as you once eloquently called it when your
government introduced the "carbon tax" revenue neutral. So, ether
libby Chapsky is wrong, or libby McGuinty is wrong / lying. Or both...
And one more thing you are wrong about, Chapsky. Peffers cannot be
more right on anything than the parrot and those are never right.
Canuck57
>> So the Tories acting on the request of two Liberal provincial governments is
>> now a bad thing?
>
> The feds were the ones pushing the idea. Now some, like Lary Miller,
> are trying to hide.
Not entirely true. Ontario, BC and Quebec are broke and have been
unable to borrow more money from the market. Their bond offerings go
unfilled, no one wants to lend them more money.
So the alternative is to say hey Ottawa, let us do it or we will leak
the bad news we are broke.
The governments are hungry to raise taxes, and HST is the way the want it.
They should really just cut spending until they live inside their means,
but they are Liberal governments and the sheeples voted for them.
The last thing Harpo wants is provinces giving out IOUs like California.
Canuck57
Not really, years of being NDP/Liberal have left them broke. BC needs
to cut back or raise taxes as BC has been unable to borrow the money on
the open market. Ditto Ontario and Quebec. All of which have unfilled
and outstanding bond offerings. In fact Vancouver is having problems
raising money too. Bad credit and poor rates of return.
I would lend them money, 8% floor rate and a 5% premium over inflation
or they can go to hell. Cashable too if they jerk lenders around.
Canuck57
Even a parrot like Peffers can trip on the the right answer.
In this case, a tax grab. And you don't even get $100 for it this time.
Canuck57
> Tories set to introduce HST bill
> Last Updated: Friday, November 27, 2009 | 1:40 PM ET
> CBC News
Tories are introducing a bill that allows them too.
And like Liberals usually are, they smell an excuse to grab more money.
Probably pressured Harpo saying they need more money.
Also fixed the title.
Chom Noamsky
Do you have a clue what you're talking about?
Chom Noamsky
You been drinking? Maybe retype the above tomorrow morning when you
make more sense.
Canuck57
I was being sarcastic about lending government money. Last I checked,
Liberals run BC. And I watch the bond offerings, tells me when the
government is borrowing money.
You think loaning BC money is a good investment, contact your broker, I
am sure they will borrow whatever you have.
Roy
> Chom Noamsky wrote:
> > Canuck57 wrote:
> >> Chom Noamsky wrote:
> >>> M I Wakefield wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
==
Canuck57: The Liberal Party of B.C. is really a CONservative party in
disguise...ask the residents of B.C. affected by their stupid policies
over the last year or so. I have relatives out there and were fooled
into thinking that Campbell had their interests at heart. Boy, did
they get screwed. Campbell and his crew will privatize everything they
can before they get thrown out.
==
Joe
> unable to borrow more money from the market. Their bond offerings go
> unfilled, no one wants to lend them more money.
Do you have a ciatation for this?
>
> So the alternative is to say hey Ottawa, let us do it or we will leak
> the bad news we are broke.
>
> The governments are hungry to raise taxes, and HST is the way the want it.
In Ontario most people will pay less taxes overall it appears. Do you
have figures to show otherwise?
>
> They should really just cut spending until they live inside their means,
> but they are Liberal governments and the sheeples voted for them.
>
> The last thing Harpo wants is provinces giving out IOUs like California.
The present government in Ontario took power to discover a hidden
deficit of over $5,000,000,000. They worked at eliminating it before
the economic mess hit.
Joe
> Not really, years of being NDP/Liberal have left them broke. BC needs
> to cut back or raise taxes as BC has been unable to borrow the money on
> the open market. Ditto Ontario and Quebec. All of which have unfilled
> and outstanding bond offerings. In fact Vancouver is having problems
> raising money too. Bad credit and poor rates of return.
Citation for Ontario not being able to borrow money please.
>
> I would lend them money, 8% floor rate and a 5% premium over inflation
> or they can go to hell. Cashable too if they jerk lenders around.
I'm not sure the buck ninety eight you could afford to lend them would
be of much use. :-)
Joe
> Tories are introducing a bill that allows them too.
>
> And like Liberals usually are, they smell an excuse to grab more money.
> Probably pressured Harpo saying they need more money.
And yet in Ontario most people will end up paying less overall tax it
is claimed. Have you figures to show otherwise? Shouting tax grab is
not really proof of anything except your herd mentality.
>
> Also fixed the title.
Canuck57
A Liberal behaving like a conservative is really due to BC not being
able to borrow more money. They are still Liberals at heart, just that
the investors and banks will not loan them more. Campbell has to sell
stuff off to raise cash to keep the government ponzi scheme going.
Similar happened in Saskatchewan, when they couldn't borrow more, they
learned the hard way how to balance the budget. Manitoba too, cut
Winnipeg off of it's civic welfare because cash dried up and the city
sold part of it's water supply to raise cash.
BC Liberals are just living with the debt the NDP/Liberals have racked
up over the years. They know raising taxes is likely going to cause
social and economic unrest if not open riots and violence.
The reality is, BC is now having to live inside of it's means.No more
liberal promises with liberal debt.
Joe
> province will now be taxing services, where as the previous tax in
> Ontario did not. Think about it; if they are taxing something new,
> like services, how the hell can it be beneficial to the taxpayer? And
> it sure as hell won't be revenue neutral and as to the $1000 gift ( a
> gift using your own money) McGuinty has promised, it's a one time
> payout only, not an annual 'refund'. And yet, McGuinty says the new
> tax regime will create 600,000 new jobs? What the hell has been
> smoking?
You've ignored the cuts to income tax. If you don't like the HST then
at least tell the whole story. some numbers to show that taxes for
most of us will increase would be a good idea.
I don't like governments issue cheques like what is proposed. didn't
like it when Harris did it and I don't like it any better when
McGuinty proposes it.
Actually an economist, Jack Mintz, said that it would create almost
600,000 jobs.
simplicity
You mean I should not go beyond grade 3 language when replying to you?
Canuck57
>> Not entirely true. Ontario, BC and Quebec are broke and have been
>> unable to borrow more money from the market. Their bond offerings go
>> unfilled, no one wants to lend them more money.
>
> Do you have a ciatation for this?
Go to your brokerage, have yourself put on the list for emails on bond,
debt and new offerings. Then look up the terms and dates of offerings.
It isn't like Ontario's McGuinty is going to come right out and tell
the truth that he can't boorrow more money. Ditto BC and Quebec.
>> So the alternative is to say hey Ottawa, let us do it or we will leak
>> the bad news we are broke.
>>
>> The governments are hungry to raise taxes, and HST is the way the want it.
>
> In Ontario most people will pay less taxes overall it appears. Do you
> have figures to show otherwise?
This is easy.
Visit the site below, punch in your income if you work. Or just punch
in say $60,000 and see who taxes the most.... I like it because it is a
whole measure including PST, GST, utilities, property taxes and a long
list of other taxes not just income taxes.
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/tools/Default.htm
It will show you all provinces. Add up the difference over say a 40+
year working career, that is a lot of $$$. Governments better get used
to it, they compete on taxes. In 2006 my company wanted me to move to
Toronto, I asked if I could get a 15% raise to compensate. They said
no. Got my severance in 2007 and worked elsewhere, a better place
actually. Nice move on my part as I have income outside of work that
makes my tax situation bad.
>> They should really just cut spending until they live inside their means,
>> but they are Liberal governments and the sheeples voted for them.
>>
>> The last thing Harpo wants is provinces giving out IOUs like California.
>
> The present government in Ontario took power to discover a hidden
> deficit of over $5,000,000,000. They worked at eliminating it before
> the economic mess hit.
CEOs, PMs, Primiers all do the same thing long before you and I were
born. I am absolutely sure todays crop will do the same to the next
crop of politicians. It is the political nature to hide the ugly and
not deal with it. Takes a real leader to grab the bull by the horns and
wipe it's ass. And we have very few leaders, most are opportunistic
slugs after feeding their own egos. Keep people happy and it is always
someone elses fault.
Besides, 5 billion is not 2.5% of what Ontario now owes. Chickenshit
excuses from liberal debt mismanagement. Hell, government is so screwed
up it is hard to believe anything they spew about debt and spending.
Well, McGuinty has been in office long enough it is his fault. Time the
loser liberal understood that.
Canuck57
Educate yourself.
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/tools/Default.htm
Say a $60,000 income:
(Cost of government)
Newfoundland $30,328
Prince Edward Island $26,680
Nova Scotia $27,666
New Brunswick $26,615
Quebec $30,942
Ontario $26,997
Manitoba $27,311
Saskatchewan $28,210
Alberta $23,461
British Columbia $27,348
And given the quality of jobs in Alberta versus the rest, hands down
winner is Alberta for lower taxes and better jobs. Say $5000 difference
in taxes alone over 40+ years of working isn't a small amount.
Actually, given the amount of debt Ontario has and comparing to the
rest, they are not charging you silly bastards enough. You should be up
there with Quebec, both of which are $200 billion in the hole, each.
Canuck57
> province will now be taxing services, where as the previous tax in
> Ontario did not. Think about it; if they are taxing something new,
> like services, how the hell can it be beneficial to the taxpayer? And
> it sure as hell won't be revenue neutral and as to the $1000 gift ( a
> gift using your own money) McGuinty has promised, it's a one time
> payout only, not an annual 'refund'. And yet, McGuinty says the new
> tax regime will create 600,000 new jobs? What the hell has been
> smoking?
What is this? McGuinty bribing the taxpayer with their own money s to
sign up for HST? LMAO. Loan sharks from the south and the mafia wish
they could get that deal.
BC relatives are bitching about the carbon tax. LMAO.
"Liberal be thy name, tax you be thy game" -- McGuinty
Bet Liberals believe McGuinty's BS line about jobs. I would like to
hear a Liberal justify that, aught to be a good laugh.
Canuck57
>> The HST is not a blended tax; it is a new tax. Like the feds, the
>> province will now be taxing services, where as the previous tax in
>> Ontario did not. Think about it; if they are taxing something new,
>> like services, how the hell can it be beneficial to the taxpayer? And
>> it sure as hell won't be revenue neutral and as to the $1000 gift ( a
>> gift using your own money) McGuinty has promised, it's a one time
>> payout only, not an annual 'refund'. And yet, McGuinty says the new
>> tax regime will create 600,000 new jobs? What the hell has been
>> smoking?
>
> You've ignored the cuts to income tax. If you don't like the HST then
> at least tell the whole story. some numbers to show that taxes for
> most of us will increase would be a good idea.
He didn't ignore anything. Government lets you keep $5 more of your
income and taxes you $10 more and youa re happy?
Are you young and stupid? This line has been pulled lots in my
lifetime, and not once has my taxes decreased.
When do you stop trusting liars? I have some beach front property for a
read good price in....
> I don't like governments issue cheques like what is proposed. didn't
> like it when Harris did it and I don't like it any better when
> McGuinty proposes it.
>
> Actually an economist, Jack Mintz, said that it would create almost
> 600,000 jobs.
>
> http://voiceoftoronto.com/wp/2009/11/proposed-hst-and-2009-ontario-budget-measures-would-create-jobs-increase-investment-and-raise-incomes/
Maybe, but he is full of shit. What drives the economy and the need for
jobs is how much people spend. If they have less to spend, there will
be less needs for jobs to satisfy the needs for goods.
Just another piece of Liberal urinalism.
Canuck57
LMAO. $1.98 is your style. I don't work for Walmart, I own some shares
in them though. Primarily because they are GROWING and PROFITABLE.
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2158900
New money, lower rating, more expensive.
Read an weep. And in 2010, Ontario has some big bonds comming up for
renewal. Same thing happened with GM, bonds came up and they couldn't
pay - in the toilet they went. Credit ratings are usually slow to
react, by the time they do the outstanding issues should be devaling
right about now.
Ontario went south to get money they couldn't boorow in Canada for the
last $4 billion. But they had to give them something they will not give
Canadians, a floating rate above the US goverment rate.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/streetwise/ontario-lands-4-billion-bond-deal/article1358712/
Better hope the CDN doesn't drop as Ontario is borrwoing real heavy on
teh US markets.
Look it up yourself right from the hoarses mouth: (Ontario even sets it
up like a business)
http://www.ontariofinancingauthority.ca
Front page, top right, bond reopening for a lousy $200m and filled in 14
months. Piddly amounts too. LMAO.
Canuck57
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/tools/Default.htm
Then you will understand why I left Ontario in 1980. Didn't have the
Internet to confirm it, but figured I had nothing to loose. Boy was I
right.
Chom Noamsky
What is the value of living in the place of your desires? Even if my
taxes were zero in Alberta I still wouldn't live there. Quality of life
and happiness can not be measured by taxation alone. And the only
reason Alberta can keep taxes relatively low is because of massive oil
and gas royalties. Without that they would be as heavily taxed as
anywhere else in Canada. In some ways Alberta is more of a Banana
Republic than Venezuela.
Red Bluestone
Mulroney's GST anyone?
Canuck57
Ontario has oil, and I mean untapped. Why is it not developed? Simple,
by the time you finish with the native rant and chant, the insatiable
government eco crap to make far too many a lead weights feel important,
McDebty Liberal greed risks you have to find people willing to work.
Which might be the toughest of them all.
Me, I like living in Alberta simply because the culture is better.
People work and expect to work. They have more respect for their fellow
neighbors as it isn't as acceptable to envy other peoples wealth from
hard work, as it is to get off your ass and get a piece.
Sure a lot nicer than Kenora, Dryden, Thunder Bay, Timins...Oshawa and
the NDiaPer union greed mentality. And sorry, Toronto used to be nice
some 40 years ago, but has gone to hell since I lived there. Oh ya, I
grew up in many of those puss holes and as soon as I was educated I left
like my ass was on fire.
Toronto, call that a life? I call it drone city.
Ontario, the Land of Entitlests...
Embarasing.
Joe
> Joe wrote:
> >> Not really, years of being NDP/Liberal have left them broke. BC needs
> >> to cut back or raise taxes as BC has been unable to borrow the money on
> >> the open market. Ditto Ontario and Quebec. All of which have unfilled
> >> and outstanding bond offerings. In fact Vancouver is having problems
> >> raising money too. Bad credit and poor rates of return.
>
> > Citation for Ontario not being able to borrow money please.
The citations you provided do not back up your claim. You wrote "Not
really, years of being NDP/Liberal have left them broke. BC needs to
cut back or raise taxes as BC has been unable to borrow the money on
the open market. Ditto Ontario and Quebec." Please back it up with a
citation that is on topic.
Joe
> income and taxes you $10 more and youa re happy?
Citation and figures to back this up please.
Joe
Well, we do know that you were wrong when you wrote, "And yet,
McGuinty says the new tax regime will create 600,000 new jobs? What
the hell has been
smoking? " in this very thread.
Joe
> winner is Alberta for lower taxes and better jobs. Say $5000 difference
> in taxes alone over 40+ years of working isn't a small amount.
And all that oil does not have any impact?
Joe
> Then you will understand why I left Ontario in 1980. Didn't have the
> Internet to confirm it, but figured I had nothing to loose. Boy was I
> right.
It looked like Ontario came out ahead on that move. It did not lose
anything of value when you left. :-)
Canuck57
It must be pretty damned delusional high quality dope.
Canuck57
No cite required.
You crank out lots of cash on your paycheques, then they give you a $100
cheque for the 10's of thousands off your cheque... and most would wet
their pants off.
Pathetically stupid actually. But works on your average Canadian.
Joe
>
> No cite required.
>
> You crank out lots of cash on your paycheques, then they give you a $100
> cheque for the 10's of thousands off your cheque... and most would wet
> their pants off.
>
> Pathetically stupid actually. But works on your average Canadian.
We may be at cross purposes here. There has been an assertion made
that the HST is a tax grab. The Liberals claim that their figures
show that almost all taxpayers of Ontario will end up paying less
overall tax. I thought that this was the claim you were making. This
claim has been made but no figures, that I have seen, have ever been
produced to back up this assertion.
Joe
> that when you add a new tax (which McGuinty is doing) and keep the old
> one, you will pay more tax which will hit seniors and low income
> people worst of all. Hell, it's even going to cost more to bury
> Grandma.
You are like many of the HST critics. You are ignoring the cut in the
income tax rate. McGuinty and company claim that the overall taxes
paid will be less for about 95% of Ontarians. No one has ever
claimed, that I have seen, that the cost of some goods and services
will not rise. It will. However, the amount of overall taxes paid
will go down. If anyone is going to be a critic of the plan they
should at least be a critic of all the entire plan and not just the
half of it that they can easily attack.
Canuck57
Claim all they want. Liberals, and others have made this promise before
and to date, I have never once seen it "neutral". And by definition how
can you collect more money and it taxes people less? Liberals aught to
hear themselves when they tout this crap.
Canuck57
It works this way. They cut $30 off your income tax. Tehy get $150
more in HST.
You smile like a dumbshit.
Sort of like they did in BC, a one time bribe, in comes the taxes an in
ones lifetime a 10,000 % gain for the government.
Liberals are suckers for this.
Joe
> more in HST.
>
> You smile like a dumbshit.
Dumbshit? You're the one making claims without any data to back it
up.
Joe
> of seniors and low income Ontarians do not pay much, or any, income
> tax, therefore increased consumption taxes are going to hurt them and
> the so called rebates aren't going to cut it.
Some data to back this up.
>And you're damn right,
> half of it is easy to attack because that's the half that's going to
> hurt a hell of a lot of people whose monthly cash flow is going to be
> impacted.
A hell of a lot of people? How many?
Joe
> and to date, I have never once seen it "neutral". And by definition how
> can you collect more money and it taxes people less? Liberals aught to
> hear themselves when they tout this crap.
Got any data?
Canuck57
History repeats.
Canuck57
> of seniors and low income Ontarians do not pay much, or any, income
> tax, therefore increased consumption taxes are going to hurt them and
> half of it is easy to attack because that's the half that's going to
> hurt a hell of a lot of people whose monthly cash flow is going to be
> impacted.
Nope, HST where I live would like get a iot, and I would participate.
But I do respect the real situation. BC and Ontario Liberals want HST
such as has been done in other provinces such as New Brunswich, which I
also don't doubt was the Liberals doing. So Harpo is just making it
possible for BC and Ontario Liberals to do the same without prejiduce to
one province over another.
While Harpo is making HST possible for BC and Ontario, it is the Liberal
Premiers that want it. Suck it up, HST is coming. If people of BC and
Ontario don't like it, stop voting Liberal.
Canuck57
Got any data to dispute it?
Joe
And you evade.
Joe
> > Got any data?
>
> Got any data to dispute it?
Yo made the claim. I need to see your data before I can dispute
anything.
Canuck57
Go off and do what liberals do best. Burry your head in the sand.
Joe
>
> any debate.
I guess its the best answer you can provide.
>
>
> Funny, you believe the government who has supplied diddly squat to
> back up their claims other than political rhetoric.
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/2009/fbbb.html#cjg
Joe
> > anything.
>
> Go off and do what liberals do best. Burry your head in the sand.
So you can't provide any data and so you give this answer.
Canuck57
Bird brain, that is all future, not present. With HST they will make up
more than the difference then creap the rates back up.
Put your head in gear. Look over your own taxes over the last 10 years
and tell me your net taxes have decreased. Look at reality, not
government bullshit. And making $20,000 as a single in Ontario is
poverty. No phase out for the middle class brackets.
Greedy government tax grab. Family of two workers, each making a piddly
$35K a year each is totally screwed as their income is too high.
Canuck57
See my last post above. As per usual, you have your head up your ass on
this one.
Thanks for providing it for us. Read the detail and it is a middle
class greedy government tax grab.
Joe
> more than the difference then creap the rates back up.
>
> Put your head in gear. Look over your own taxes over the last 10 years
> and tell me your net taxes have decreased. Look at reality, not
> government bullshit. And making $20,000 as a single in Ontario is
> poverty. No phase out for the middle class brackets.
>
> Greedy government tax grab. Family of two workers, each making a piddly
> $35K a year each is totally screwed as their income is too high.
You've confused rant with fact.
Joe
>
> See my last post above. As per usual, you have your head up your ass on
> this one.
>
> Thanks for providing it for us. Read the detail and it is a middle
> class greedy government tax grab.
Rant not fact.
Joe
Try providing some facts.