BC and Ontario - has the fight just begun over the HST ?
durablepsyche
Liberals in bind over HST motion
Bloc pledges support for government bill, but Ignatieff must still choose between
political opportunity and avoiding bitter feud with provincial cousins
Federal Liberals acknowledge they've been placed in a bind over an HST vote forcing them
to choose between political opportunity or avoiding a bitter feud with provincial Liberal
cousins.
Liberal MPs said yesterday they will meet behind closed doors before taking a position on
next week's Conservative government motion.
"I'll decide in my own sweet time," Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff told reporters in St.
John's. "I haven't seen the legislation. I've got to consult with the caucus."
The Bloc Qu�b�cois took some of the pressure off the Liberals yesterday, giving a strong
indication that it will support the government motion. The Conservatives, however, want
Liberal support so that the measure can pass quickly through the House and the Senate. The
legislation would give the provinces the ability to move forward with sales-tax
harmonization.
The incoming tax change - which polls show is unpopular with voters - is planned for July
1 in Ontario and British Columbia, where two Liberal premiers have fought hard to sell the
move as a necessary step to spur economic growth.
Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty was an early advocate of harmonization as a way to
reduce corporate taxes. Ottawa has offered $4.3-billion to Ontario and $1.6-billion to
B.C. as incentives to make the switch.
But Conservatives have since distanced themselves from the change, portraying it as a
purely provincial issue. Tory MPs will not be allowed a free vote on the issue and have
been told not to talk about it. The federal NDP and its provincial affiliates in B.C. and
Ontario have campaigned hard against the HST. NDP Leader Jack Layton has said he believes
the issue was a factor in his party's recent by-election victory in B.C.
The government leaked talking points to the media Thursday evening that said the Official
Opposition Liberals will decide whether the HST lives or dies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Ignatieff: Ignat...@parl.gc.ca
Jack Layton: Lay...@parl.gc.ca
And if you're a Conservative voter, about to face thousands more in taxes because of the
HST, you may just want to write and tell your leader that you won't be voting Conservative
next time around:
Canuck57
Liberal governments want more of your money. Keep voting Liberal, they
will tax you to death.
durablepsyche
"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bMgQm.89572$gg6....@newsfe25.iad...
> Liberal governments want more of your money. Keep voting Liberal, they will tax you to
> death.
Rather dense. It's your Cons that are imposing the HST - by bribing the provinces with
taxpayer dollars.
No parties tax more or mis-spend more than rightwing governments. History has proven this
over and over again.
durablepsyche
"E. Barry Bruyea" <terml...@democracy.com> wrote in message
news:da63h5hhvqee6fhk9...@4ax.com...
> Ottawa can't force the HST down the throats of Ontarians; only
> McGuinty can do that. As for it being revenue neutral, that is the
> biggest crock of shit out of McGuinty's mouth yet, and given his
> history, that's saying something.
Ottawa (Harper) CAN force the HST down the throats of provincial leaders by simply cutting
more transfer payments to the provinces which DON'T adopt the HST as demanded by the Cons.
And considering the dire straits that the provinces are in already with the Harper-led
recession in Canada, they are now hard-pressed to turn down the billion-dollar 'gifts'
being traded to them for introducing the HST in their provinces. It's called BRIBERY,
backed by intimidation. Stephen Harper's typical method of operation.
Pat Bay
"durablepsyche" <durabl...@home.ca> wrote in message
news:z2hQm.52789$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad...
Interesting commentary.
Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in power?
The downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and his
Liberals were in power?
Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
Canuck57
Liberal debtors need money. Either that or let Ontario, BC and Quebec
compete for who is first through bankruptcy court. Governmetns are
broke, and provinces can create/print money like the fed can.
At least it is provinces shafting their own this time.
All Harpo si doing is allowing the Liberals to do it.
Canuck57
Transfer to provinces are going down because less money is going in that
ever before. Because liberalism, liberal debt and liberal taxation are
now taking their toll.
Now if mcGuinty can't control his government, the people auth to bitch
at him. Or maybe vote smarter next time. And turf the MLA that kisses
McGuinty's ass.
Canuck57
Liberals can't, because the economy was headed into a recession because
of liberalism. GM going bankrupt was on the wall years before Harpo.
Debt dysfunction started before Harpo.
Mind you, Harpo is feeding the problem with more debt. But that is
another issue. We can't expect the narrow minded liberal to understand
that. A good depression will teach them that.
durablepsyche
"Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote in message news:YLhQm.55549$PH1.6177@edtnps82...
> Interesting commentary.
>
> Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in power? The
> downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and his
> Liberals were in power?
>
> Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
Nice try. Brian Mulroney was in power for the 1990 recession. And again, it was the
U.S., under rightwing President Ronald Reagan, that took Canada into a recession in 1982.
__________________________
Canada experienced economic recession in the early 1980s and again in the early 1990s.[2]
This led to massive government deficits, high unemployment, and general disaffection. The
poor economy helped lead to the overwhelming rejection of the Progressive Conservative
Party in the 1993 election.
durablepsyche
"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:zaiQm.33859
> Liberals can't, because the economy was headed into a recession because of liberalism.
> GM going bankrupt was on the wall years before Harpo. Debt dysfunction started before
> Harpo.
Nope. Huge surplus was inherited by the Cons from the Liberals. No 'bankruptcy for GM'
was anywhere on the horizon. "Debt dysfunction" was fully earned through spending by the
Harper Cons.
----------------
the Harper government was quick to boast that it had a $13.3 billion surplus, but
neglected to mention they inherited it from the sound fiscal management of the previous
Liberal government.
> Mind you, Harpo is feeding the problem with more debt. But that is another issue. We
> can't expect the narrow minded liberal to understand that. A good depression will teach
> them that.
Debt comes from spending it on bailouts of corporations and funding losing wars to try and
impress the American presidents. That would be a Harper government gig - all the way.
durablepsyche
"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:S4iQm.46657> Transfer to provinces
> ever before. Because liberalism, liberal debt and liberal taxation are now taking their
> toll.
Nope. Your Conservatives took a huge surplus, handed over to them by the Paul Martin
government, and ran it into the ground - all by themselves - no "liberals" to blame since
they did it by investing our money in huge military spending and then bailouts to banks,
automobile manufacturers, and cutting taxes to oil companies and other corporations.
> Now if mcGuinty can't control his government, the people auth to bitch at him. Or maybe
> vote smarter next time. And turf the MLA that kisses McGuinty's ass.
Or maybe review just what screws the Harper Cons are putting to the provinces to shift
taxation from themselves to the premiers of the provinces about to foist the HST on its
residents.
Chom Noamsky
>> Rather dense. It's your Cons that are imposing the HST - by bribing
>> the provinces with taxpayer dollars.
>> No parties tax more or mis-spend more than rightwing governments.
>> History has proven this over and over again.
>
> Liberal debtors need money. Either that or let Ontario, BC and Quebec
> compete for who is first through bankruptcy court. Governmetns are
> broke, and provinces can create/print money like the fed can.
>
> At least it is provinces shafting their own this time.
>
> All Harpo si doing is allowing the Liberals to do it.
You are so full of shit. Ottawa had a $13 billion surplus the day
Harper took control. Now Ottawa is deeply in the red... after two
CONSERVATIVE budgets.
Pat Bay
>
> "Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote in message
> news:YLhQm.55549$PH1.6177@edtnps82...
>> Interesting commentary.
>>
>> Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in
>> power? The downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and
>> his
>> Liberals were in power?
>>
>> Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
>
>
> Nice try. Brian Mulroney was in power for the 1990 recession. And again,
> it was the U.S., under rightwing President Ronald Reagan, that took Canada
> into a recession in 1982.
Recession existed after 1993. The Liberals didn't help in the recovery all
that much until late in 1998.
> __________________________
>
> Canada experienced economic recession in the early 1980s and again in the
> early 1990s.[2] This led to massive government deficits, high
> unemployment, and general disaffection. The poor economy helped lead to
> the overwhelming rejection of the Progressive Conservative Party in the
> 1993 election.
Actually it was a combination of things, but I'll give you a half point on
that one.
durablepsyche
>>> Interesting commentary.
>>>
>>> Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in power? The
>>> downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and his
>>> Liberals were in power?
>>>
>>> Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
> "durablepsyche" <durabl...@home.ca> wrote in
>> Nice try. Brian Mulroney was in power for the 1990 recession. And again, it was the
>> U.S., under rightwing President Ronald Reagan, that took Canada into a recession in
>> 1982.
Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote
> Recession existed after 1993. The Liberals didn't help in the recovery all that much
> until late in 1998.
Keep on blathering. But you're painting yourself into a corner each and every time you
post. The recession lasted as long as the Conservative government did. After the
Liberals took helm, the economy turned around and the budgets were balanced and surplus.
___________________________
1991 article:
*Douglas D. Peters is Senior Vice-president and Chief Economist, Toronto Dominion Bank,
Toronto, Canada.
The Canadian economy has been affected by the Gulf War, a value-added tax, the free trade
agreement with the U. S. and a tight monetary policy that culminated in a serious
recession. A significant recovery is expected by summer 1991 as interest rates ease and
the U.S. economy recovers.
A NUMBER OF interesting economic events have impinged on the Canadian economy in recent
years that will affect the future of this northern half of the North American continent.
These include not only the Gulf War of recent weeks and the rise in oil prices in
mid-1990, but also the imposition of a new multistage value-added tax system and a
monetary policy that produced economy-numbing high real interest rates in a period of
adjustment to a free trade environment with its much larger neighbor.
Pat Bay
>>> "Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote in message
>>> news:YLhQm.55549$PH1.6177@edtnps82...
>>>> Interesting commentary.
>>>>
>>>> Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in
>>>> power? The downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and
>>>> his
>>>> Liberals were in power?
>>>>
>>>> Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
>
>
>> "durablepsyche" <durabl...@home.ca> wrote in
>>> Nice try. Brian Mulroney was in power for the 1990 recession. And
>>> again, it was the U.S., under rightwing President Ronald Reagan, that
>>> took Canada into a recession in 1982.
>
>
> Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote
>> Recession existed after 1993. The Liberals didn't help in the recovery
>> all that much until late in 1998.
>
>
> Keep on blathering. But you're painting yourself into a corner each and
> every time you post. The recession lasted as long as the Conservative
> government did. After the Liberals took helm, the economy turned around
> and the budgets were balanced and surplus.
Actually it didn't. There were long lasting effects. The Liberals were able
to balance the budget simply because Paul Martin is a fiscal conservative,
The Liberals have had a history of reckless spending (particularly in the
1970's and 1980's when even in the 1990's tapayers were still paying for
their deeds and are still are to a degree.
The Liberals and balanced budgets don't go togther well unless you have Paul
Martin entering the picture.
He's the odd man out within the Liberal Party environment.
Liberals are vermin
> Send Ignatieff and Layton an email now (addresses at end of posting).
>
> Liberals in bind over HST motion
> Bloc pledges support for government bill, but Ignatieff must still choose between
> political opportunity and avoiding bitter feud with provincial cousins
Chretien used the same scam, opposing the GST to get elected, then
KEPT it!! Scum liberals. We already pay 60% of our incomes in taxes,
how much more do these vampires want?
P.S. Public-sector wages now outpace private sector wages by about
40%!!!
Canuck57
Yep, and $13 billion is jack shit for savings and debt repayment. Errors
in government reporting was probably larger.
Look at the alternatives, coupe d'etat NDP/Liberals of which Iggy
oppenly stated they didn't spend enough and taxes should go up.
Would Iggy, Laytoon pass a budget to NOT bailout GM and the banks and to
cut governemnt size by 30%? Hardly. With lower business activity,
fewer working, less spending, lower incomes -- so goes government
revenue. I estimate as much as 30% less government revenue and it may
get worse.
Well, if my taxes go up I will quit working or will in at least get
oppenly beligerant about it. Governemtns are worried about this,
because at some point it is worth it to openly be disobedient to
taxation. Get a job where they don't deduct at source and move the
moneys and assets where they can't tough them. I don't get enough net
return on my paycheque as it is. In essense, that is what business is
saying about the US and Canada. Screw you.
Enjoy, this will be a long depression. While governments invest in
losers, the depression and tax oppression will continue.
Canuck57
> "Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:zaiQm.33859
>> Liberals can't, because the economy was headed into a recession because of liberalism.
>> GM going bankrupt was on the wall years before Harpo. Debt dysfunction started before
>> Harpo.
>
> Nope. Huge surplus was inherited by the Cons from the Liberals. No 'bankruptcy for GM'
> was anywhere on the horizon. "Debt dysfunction" was fully earned through spending by the
> Harper Cons.
Huh? GM was going bankrupt 4 years ago. Management mistated financials
5-6 years ago. Unions didn't give a rats dead ass until the governemtns
said here is how it is or no jobs. Yet GM was operating so long in
technical bankruptcy and losses it pilled $177 billion of net debt it
couldn't ever repay.
You know shit. GM even had rumours on the street 6 years ago. Carlyle
and Cerberus would strip GM and Chrysler of the good parts and package
the rest for bankruptcy. In those years Carlyle and Cerberus returned
over 25%/year to their investors doing this.
Once stripped, dump them on the taxpayers. This isn't new. It is old
news. Screw the taxpayers. And our dumbshit politicians fell for it
while CAW rodents sold up out for a dime.
> the Harper government was quick to boast that it had a $13.3 billion surplus, but
> neglected to mention they inherited it from the sound fiscal management of the previous
> Liberal government.
Just like the Liberals neglected to mention the cons did the GST and
neglected to removed it. The choices between cosn and libs is which
name do you want associated with the screwing. But will admit, Liberals
screw Canada real good.
>> Mind you, Harpo is feeding the problem with more debt. But that is another issue. We
>> can't expect the narrow minded liberal to understand that. A good depression will teach
>> them that.
>
> Debt comes from spending it on bailouts of corporations and funding losing wars to try and
> impress the American presidents. That would be a Harper government gig - all the way.
Yep, and Iggy/Laytoon openly stated Harpo didn't spend enough. You are
a good Liberal, you choose to see only what you want to see.
Do you really think NDP/Liberal bribe of the bloc for a Coupe D'etat was
because Laytoon/Dion really cared about Canada? No, it was because
Harpo was being a tightwad with GM/Chrysler and CAW pushed for Ottawa to
do something. In essense, Laytoon and Dion sold out Canadian taxpayers
and saddled them with a Turdeau sized debt increase.
Dumbshit Canadians think our system isn't corrupt, aught to take a
course in rationality and non-causal relationships.
Canuck57
I didn't vote for Mulroney after he added GST. Screw him all to hell.
I will not degrade my vote. But didn't vote for a Liberal either. They
are just as bad. In fact worse, they are 100% consistant about screwing
hard working middle class.
Canuck57
> "durablepsyche" <durabl...@home.ca> wrote in message
> news:R9jQm.57263$Zu5....@newsfe24.iad...
>> "Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote in message
>> news:YLhQm.55549$PH1.6177@edtnps82...
>>> Interesting commentary.
>>>
>>> Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in
>>> power? The downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and
>>> his
>>> Liberals were in power?
>>>
>>> Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
>>
>> Nice try. Brian Mulroney was in power for the 1990 recession. And again,
>> it was the U.S., under rightwing President Ronald Reagan, that took Canada
>> into a recession in 1982.
>
> Recession existed after 1993. The Liberals didn't help in the recovery all
> that much until late in 1998.
That is what happens when you try to debt-spend, it just makes it worse.
It does for household, business and government alike. It is a falacy
you can spend out of it. Both 1980 and 1992 recessions recovery was
hampered by increasing taxation, and for commoners didn't really recover
until 1987 and 1997 or so.
It will be worse this time, as the government debt spend is more like
Turdeau's infamous legacy of a generation of tax-debt enslavement we
still pay for today. Like the 70's, the money creation and debt rose,
so did inflation. It has already started and 2010 will be a mix of
shortages and inflation as much of the pricing elasticity has now left
the system.
History repeats... invarably as our people and politicians are too
stupid to do otherwise.
Canuck57
>>> "Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote in message news:YLhQm.55549$PH1.6177@edtnps82...
>>>> Interesting commentary.
>>>>
>>>> Care to explain the recession in the 1980's when the Liberals were in power? The
>>>> downturn in the economy during the 1990's when Chretien and his
>>>> Liberals were in power?
>>>>
>>>> Harper led recession?? Care to explain that one?
>
>
>> "durablepsyche" <durabl...@home.ca> wrote in
>>> Nice try. Brian Mulroney was in power for the 1990 recession. And again, it was the
>>> U.S., under rightwing President Ronald Reagan, that took Canada into a recession in
>>> 1982.
>
>
> Pat Bay" <pat...@islandz.net> wrote
>> Recession existed after 1993. The Liberals didn't help in the recovery all that much
>> until late in 1998.
>
>
> Keep on blathering. But you're painting yourself into a corner each and every time you
> post. The recession lasted as long as the Conservative government did. After the
> Liberals took helm, the economy turned around and the budgets were balanced and surplus.
It takes YEARS for an economic cycle, only pea brained liberals think it
turns overnight.
This recession/depression really started with Carter. As banks
leveraged and piled debt...then it popped. And not one leader since had
the guts, the ball or the intelligence to see it. I cought on in 2006
when interest rates inverted on inflation and government didn't care.
When this inversion happens, it historically is a 100% indicator of a
pending recession/depresion.
We are doomed to repeat history as we are too stupid to learn the
lessons of the past. So the lessons need to be re-learned by this
geneation.
Canuck57
I will agree that Paul Martin was the best Liberal finance guy they ever
had. But Chretian was at least as worse than Martin was good. But I
suspect it is because he had a background in real business, and not
academia bullshit laced with a Quebec fiscal waste menality.
Certainly was an odd man out, guess the Liberals got lucky as the
garbage they have had ever since could't balance the books if their own
lives depended on it.
This recession/depression started a long time ago, and vitually every
politician US and Canadian ignored the warnings. It was truly a
bin-partizan excercise in denial. Now we will pay the pice for electing
the bozos to office.
Canuck57
> "Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:S4iQm.46657> Transfer to provinces
> are going down because less money is going in that
>> ever before. Because liberalism, liberal debt and liberal taxation are now taking their
>> toll.
>
>
> Nope. Your Conservatives took a huge surplus, handed over to them by the Paul Martin
> government, and ran it into the ground - all by themselves - no "liberals" to blame since
> they did it by investing our money in huge military spending and then bailouts to banks,
> automobile manufacturers, and cutting taxes to oil companies and other corporations.
Believe what you want. Can't change a denialist liberal, just watch as
they sink.
Good part is I count on you supporting the liberals. As once you take a
cynical and critical view of government, added with years of personal
trading ont eh amrkets, you can be a good investor by anticipating
government screw ups.
Believe it or not, I made a lot of money on GMs bailout. I bet the
corruption would come and it did. So what if mcGuinty/Harpo screws the
rest of the country with debt-spend, I made money. I just sat back and
said I know the senate, the congress and Bush/Obama are just singing a
song and the rich want the bailout. I knew Harpo/McGuinty would cave as
they didn't want spoiled union astards making waves in TO or Ottawa.
How can I profit by this?
>> Now if mcGuinty can't control his government, the people auth to bitch at him. Or maybe
>> vote smarter next time. And turf the MLA that kisses McGuinty's ass.
>
> Or maybe review just what screws the Harper Cons are putting to the provinces to shift
> taxation from themselves to the premiers of the provinces about to foist the HST on its
> residents.
Harpo isn't forcing McGuinty to do shit.
McGuinty is freaking broke. Out of credit, can't borrow the money the
government needs. I posted this multiple times since Sept 2008 when an
Ontario bond offering went unfilled. (Unfilled - no one wanted to lend
you money).
McGuinty wants more revenue, tax grab by the provinces. Simple as that.
Harpo is just making it possible for McGuinty to screw you. Vote for
someone else other than McGuinty and turf your MLA come next election.
Maybe even try a recall! I know recalls are not legal, but if 75%
percent of Ontarians signed to recall him, sends a powerful message.
Canuck57
Of course. I call this the principle of government greed. Government's
cardianl sin is never take less from the people, and never decrease in
size. Statism and dysfunctional politics is more important than the people.
Hint: They want as much as the average public will allow them to take.
If we join organizations like The Taxpayers Federation, stop voting for
the same old shit parties or parties professing more taxation like the
Green knobs then it will change.
Take GM/Chrysler/Bank bailouts, 79% of the voters were against it but
the government did it anyway. Not very democratic, it is because
democracy in Canada is a rouse. Bet many a voters even buy a GM or
Chrysler. That just fortifies that it is ok to tax you for private
business. You condone it.
Stop supporting the shits that screw us and the screwing will stop. We
need to get mean about this, as mean as their envy is for our earned wealth.
simplicity
> > durablepsyche wrote:
> >> Send Ignatieff and Layton an email now (addresses at end of posting).
>
> >> Liberals in bind over HST motion
> >> Bloc pledges support for government bill, but Ignatieff must still choose between
> >> political opportunity and avoiding bitter feud with provincial cousins
>
> >> Federal Liberals acknowledge they've been placed in a bind over an HST vote forcing
> >> them to choose between political opportunity or avoiding a bitter feud with provincial
> >> Liberal cousins.
>
> >> Liberal MPs said yesterday they will meet behind closed doors before taking a position
> >> on next week's Conservative government motion.
>
> >> "I'll decide in my own sweet time," Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff told reporters in
> >> St. John's. "I haven't seen the legislation. I've got to consult with the caucus."
>
> >> strong indication that it will support the government motion. The Conservatives,
> >> however, want Liberal support so that the measure can pass quickly through the House
> >> and the Senate. The legislation would give the provinces the ability to move forward
> >> with sales-tax harmonization.
>
> >> The incoming tax change - which polls show is unpopular with voters - is planned for
> >> July 1 in Ontario and British Columbia, where two Liberal premiers have fought hard to
> >> sell the move as a necessary step to spur economic growth.
>
> >> Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty was an early advocate of harmonization as a way
> >> to reduce corporate taxes. Ottawa has offered $4.3-billion to Ontario and $1.6-billion
> >> to B.C. as incentives to make the switch.
>
> >> But Conservatives have since distanced themselves from the change, portraying it as a
> >> purely provincial issue. Tory MPs will not be allowed a free vote on the issue and have
> >> been told not to talk about it. The federal NDP and its provincial affiliates in B.C.
> >> and Ontario have campaigned hard against the HST. NDP Leader Jack Layton has said he
> >> believes the issue was a factor in his party's recent by-election victory in B.C.
>
> >> The government leaked talking points to the media Thursday evening that said the
> >> Official Opposition Liberals will decide whether the HST lives or dies.
>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >> Jack Layton: Lay...@parl.gc.ca
>
> >> And if you're a Conservative voter, about to face thousands more in taxes because of
> >> the HST, you may just want to write and tell your leader that you won't be voting
> >> Conservative next time around:
>
> >> p...@pm.gc.ca
>
> news:bMgQm.89572$gg6....@newsfe25.iad...
>
> > Liberal governments want more of your money. Keep voting Liberal, they will tax you to
> > death.
>
> Rather dense. It's your Cons that are imposing the HST - by bribing the provinces with
> taxpayer dollars.
> No parties tax more or mis-spend more than rightwing governments. History has proven this
> over and over again.
Short memory, eh?
It your libbies who started this and for no other reason than to save
face of that liar Chretien. Now it is only fair that remaining two
jurisdictions receive the same treatment.
simplicity
> Canuck57 wrote:
> >> Rather dense. It's your Cons that are imposing the HST - by bribing
> >> the provinces with taxpayer dollars.
> >> No parties tax more or mis-spend more than rightwing governments.
> >> History has proven this over and over again.
>
> > Liberal debtors need money. Either that or let Ontario, BC and Quebec
> > compete for who is first through bankruptcy court. Governmetns are
> > broke, and provinces can create/print money like the fed can.
>
> > At least it is provinces shafting their own this time.
>
> > All Harpo si doing is allowing the Liberals to do it.
>
> You are so full of shit.
Let's see who really is full of shit.
> Ottawa had a $13 billion surplus the day
> Harper took control.
Chapsky believes that overcharging Canadians to the tune of 13 G$ is
good. That's roughly $400 per year per each Canadian, big and small. I
call it robbery and I think it is you who is full of shit, Chapsky.
> Now Ottawa is deeply in the red... after two
> CONSERVATIVE budgets.
Do you suggest that Canada would have still been in surplus had it
been liberal budgets rather than conservative ones? Is 25G$ Ontario
deficit, that's roughly 2k$ per year per each Ontarian, big and small,
also Harper's fault?
That, Chapsky, could qualify as a lousy joke if I did not know how
full of shit you are.
Orion
<snip>
> I will agree that Paul Martin was the best Liberal finance guy they ever
> had. But Chretien was at least as worse than Martin was good. But I
> suspect it is because he had a background in real business, and not
> academia bullshit laced with a Quebec fiscal waste mentality.
>
> Certainly was an odd man out, guess the Liberals got lucky as the
> garbage they have had ever since could't balance the books if their own
> lives depended on it.
The myth of Paul Martin as some kind of financial genius is
persistent, but wrong. Whether he got that 'surplus' (yeah, right...no
such thing as a surplus when you're up to your ass in debt, kids) from
the billions slashed from the healthcare system or other transfers to
the provinces, stealing it from the EI fund or wherever, the bottom
line is that two Conservative policies allowed our economic recovery:
the GST and Free Trade. Both of which the Liberals vehemently
*opposed* while in opposition, only to turn around and embrace when
they formed government. Pierre Trudeau (may he rot in hell) gave us
this huge national debt...Brian Mulroney inherited it (along with
record-high interest rates) and gave us the means to dig our way out
while still keeping the country afloat. This necessitated going a bit
further into debt at the time...so what? What you have had him
do...close all the hospitals for a week? Shut down all government
operations for two weeks? Send all RCMP officers home for a month?
What? What else could he have possibly done?
> This recession/depression started a long time ago, and vitually every
> politician US and Canadian ignored the warnings. It was truly a
> bin-partizan excercise in denial.
Stephen Harper was warning us about the coming recession two years
before it happened...not hard to do considering what was happening in
the US at the time.
durablepsyche
"simplicity" <stella...@live.ca> wrote in message
news:78990270-05f6-4c73...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Short memory, eh?
>It your libbies who started this and for no other reason than to save
>face of that liar Chretien. Now it is only fair that remaining two
>jurisdictions receive the same treatment.
Okay, give us the details of "the libbies" introducing the HST. Dates and people
involved.
durablepsyche
news:f95b9902-cd1e-496c...@u1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> Stephen Harper was warning us about the coming recession two years
> before it happened...not hard to do considering what was happening in
> the US at the time.
Hahahahaha !! You're very funny. Or stupid. Stephen Harper and his gang wouldn't admit
to any kind of a recession - even AFTER it was well in effect. Kept predicting 'small
slumps' that would in no way mirror what was happening in the U.S. Even his hand-picked
economist types were blushing while the denying was taking place.
I guess 'once a rightwinger, always a rightwinger, eh, "Orion"?
durablepsyche
> This recession/depression really started with Carter. As banks leveraged and piled
> debt...then it popped. And not one leader since had the guts, the ball or the
> intelligence to see it. I cought on in 2006 when interest rates inverted on inflation
> and government didn't care. When this inversion happens, it historically is a 100%
> indicator of a pending recession/depresion.
>
> We are doomed to repeat history as we are too stupid to learn the lessons of the past.
> So the lessons need to be re-learned by this geneation.
That's what comes from stupid Prime Ministers tying their pony to a cart heading down the
hill, isn't it?
The Harper government just LOVED George W Bush and his military and economic policies, and
he took Canadians right down the same losing path that the U.S. was going. Now he's
trying to make this out as a "global recession" that has infected Canada. That "global
recession" started in the UNITED STATES and under the leadership of the man he admired.
How stupid is too stupid - to lead any country?
durablepsyche
> Transfer to provinces are going down because less money is going in that ever before.
> Because liberalism, liberal debt and liberal taxation are now taking their toll.
Nope, not "less money in" - more money OUT. Do you suppose that spending $500,000. a year
on every single military person in Afghanistan could account for some of that spending?
durablepsyche
"Liberals are vermin" <rande...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:63aeeb83-31f3-4f4d...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Chretien used the same scam, opposing the GST to get elected, then
KEPT it!! Scum liberals. We already pay 60% of our incomes in taxes,
how much more do these vampires want?
P.S. Public-sector wages now outpace private sector wages by about
40%!!!
Stop turning yourself green over properly-paid workers in Canada over those being
exploited by private businesses. If you don't qualify for one of those "public sector"
jobs, get some up-grading skills or eduction.
And after Mulroney introduced the GST, Harper now comes along and increases it to the HST.
Both taxes came in under Conservative governments or Liberal governments?
You vote for a right wing government, you vote for increased taxes. It's historically
true and only the very stupid keep forgetting that truism.
durablepsyche
> Of course. I call this the principle of government greed. Government's cardianl sin is
> never take less from the people, and never decrease in size. Statism and dysfunctional
> politics is more important than the people.
If you're not too scared to be proven wrong, you might want to take a little look at what
Dalton McGuinty - a Liberal - is planning for Ontario: a 40% reduction in the public
service, or imposed time off (vacations) with no pay, imposing the HST on all Ontarians to
increase tax revenues, and yet still planning tax cuts for corporations.
THIS is what I mean about the Liberals and Conservatives being cut from the same cloth:
the cloth is made in right wing factories, owned by corporations.
durablepsyche
>>Okay, give us the details of "the libbies" introducing the HST. Dates and people
>>involved.
"E. Barry Bruyea" <terml...@democracy.com> wrote in message
news:jubgh51l25gki4hfp...@4ax.com...
> The liberals in Ontario are introducing the HST in Ontario. Only it's
> not a 'Harmonized' tax, it's a new tax. Services will now be taxed in
> Ontario. It should be renamed the "Hosed & Screwed Tax". Dates?
> Right now.
Did you miss that part that McGuinty is doing it in exchange for $4.3 BILLION from Stephen
Harper's government? WHO's doing the real "hosing and screwing" - the provincial
government that faces even more federal transfer reductions, or the federal government
holding the tax purse?
durablepsyche
"Orion" <Ori...@hush.com> wrote in message news:f95b9902-cd1e-496c-bc00-
> The myth of Paul Martin as some kind of financial genius is
> persistent, but wrong. Whether he got that 'surplus' (yeah, right...no
> such thing as a surplus when you're up to your ass in debt, kids) from
> the billions slashed from the healthcare system or other transfers to
> the provinces, stealing it from the EI fund or wherever, the bottom
> line is that two Conservative policies allowed our economic recovery:
> the GST and Free Trade.
Hey, stupid, it was the GST and 'Free Trade' that started the economic ball rolling
downward. Now the U.S., having realized that their job losses are tied directly to 'free
trade' deals, have started a 'Buy American' economic policy that violated all free trade
agreements - but, as per the usual "fuck you" atttitude of Americans - is undoing the
parts of free trade pacts that is no longer finding approval by Americans.
If Free Trade was such a great thing for the U.S., why the hell would they be initiating
counter-free trade policies during their huge recession?
Pat Bay
What about the Liberals allowing Atlantic Canada to adopt an HST? The
federal Liberals led by Chretien were certainly not right wing.
Orion
As always, you have no idea what you're talking about. Stephen
Harper started warning about an economic slowdown two years before it
happened and those statements are a matter of record whether you
remember them or not.
As for his denial about it when it happened, that's easy: any
economist will tell you that the fastest way into a recession is to
*talk about it*. Go ahead...panic the people with 'doom and gloom'
talk and see what happens. To try and make people believe that the
Prime Minister saw the full-blown economic meltdown in the US (thanks,
Bill Clinton!) and yet seriously believed Canada would be spared is
ludicrous...especially since Stephen Harper is an economist himself.
No, an intelligent person would have asked themselves why he was
denying the obvious, which would have quickly led to a realization
about what he was doing and (most importantly) WHY he was doing it...
(and it worked, too...Canada was the least-compromised and first-
recovered country in the G20)
Not surprised at all that you don't know any of this, though. That's
what happens when you get all of your news filtered through a left-
wing prism...
> I guess 'once a rightwinger, always a rightwinger, eh, "Orion"?
Once a dimwit, always a dimwit, eh "Karen"...:)
Orion
> "Canuck57" <Canuc...@nospam.com> wrote in message
The 'global recession' actually started with the collapse of the sub-
prime mortgage market...which can be laid directly at the feet of BILL
CLINTON, since it was his government that rammed through the
legislation making sub-prime mortgages possible (even *mandatory*).
Nice try, though...
> How stupid is too stupid - to lead any country?
How stupid is too stupid to post to UseNet?