So, what is the price of 5% and 10% table cream where you are?
Some Guy
Frills had it for $2.00 for a while, and Loblaws had it for $2.50 for a
week. That bastardized frog store that's now called "Metro" (formerly
A&P) has it for fucking $4.
Why the hell does the price for fucking table cream vary so much?
And they talk about gold shooting up in value. Fuck that. On a
percentage basis, gold's got nothing on fucking table cream.
Warren Oates
> 1 liter 5% and 10% table cream is back to $3.50 - $4.00 in London. No
> Frills had it for $2.00 for a while, and Loblaws had it for $2.50 for a
> week. That bastardized frog store that's now called "Metro" (formerly
> A&P) has it for fucking $4.
Yah, but pork loins are on sale at Metro this week, and No Frills has
bottled water cheap (can't drink this crap Ontario tap water) and Sobeys
give points on everything.
--
Suddenly he realized that he was alone
with a giant halfwit on a dark deserted street.
-- Chester Himes
Marcus Coles
The budget end of Metro, Food Basics in London $3.19 for Beatrice Half &
Half 10%, purchased on Sunday.
My local Convenience store has it for $3.89 and it has been that price
for 6 months or so. Probably a good yardstick as a low volume steady
price seller. The big boys are playing volume and juggling games over
various products.
Have you read the label and checked out what is in the so called "cream"
these days? Not quite the same stuff that used to get scooped off the
top of the cow milk. At least there is no melamine...yet.
chuckcar
Try Carnation's. Once you've had coffee with it you'll never go back.
--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
Chicken Little
Warren Oates wrote:
How much are chicken breasts?
Tony
paid 4 bucks for that shit huh? What the hell does those FROG stores charge
for snow shovels? We're getting warm weather in the southern part of Ontario.
Oh, i almost forgot you're in the extreme northern part where 6 foot
snowfalls a day are the norm nowadays. I don't know anyone who'd want to live
in that icebox of a hellhole known as Ottawa (Autowa-nker).
chuckcar wrote:
--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG
Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city
Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners
Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,
Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!
El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar
Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man
Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability
Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday
Geoffrey Welsh
> On a percentage basis, gold's got nothing on fucking table cream.
Many Canadian products are held artificially expensive by "marketing boards"
Canuck57
> 1 liter 5% and 10% table cream is back to $3.50 - $4.00 in London. No
> Frills had it for $2.00 for a while, and Loblaws had it for $2.50 for a
> week. That bastardized frog store that's now called "Metro" (formerly
> A&P) has it for fucking $4.
>
> Why the hell does the price for fucking table cream vary so much?
Low competition. Union labour, high Canadian taxation getting passed
on. Dose of inflation added.
> And they talk about gold shooting up in value. Fuck that. On a
> percentage basis, gold's got nothing on fucking table cream.
2010 will be the year of inflation. The price we pay for our
governments indescression with debt and money creation. I expect as our
US and CAD currencies fall relative to the rest of the world that costs
across the board are starting to creap up.
Last months US numbers tell the story. GDP up 3% yet unemployment is
also up. That only happens because of inflation. If GDP is up, and the
use of labour is not also up, then it means cost increases are making it
into the supply chain.
If gold is an indication, and like the past history again repeats
itself, about 300% inflation is due in the next 5 to 10 years. Now that
the economy is no longer decreasing in dollars (but is in value), and
the duration of this economic downturn, we have fully met the definition
of the term "depression". The Great Government/Debt Depression of
2008-20xx".
Some Guy
> 2010 will be the year of inflation. The price we pay for our
> governments indescression with debt and money creation.
You will not see inflation here unless the Bank of Canada raises
interest rates. The bank rate is currently 0.25%. A historic low.
The BofC will only raise the rate if they have trouble selling federal
debt. There is no sign of that happening.
The BofC is under extreme pressure to *not* raise rates because that
will increase the value of the CDN dollar with respest to the US
dollar. If the US raises rates, then that will give the BofC some
leeway to do the same.
> I expect as our US and CAD currencies fall relative to the rest of
> the world that costs across the board are starting to creap up.
Other countries and other currencies are in no stronger position to take
any sort of lead. That's the fallacy of your argument.
> Last months US numbers tell the story. GDP up 3% yet unemployment is
> also up. That only happens because of inflation.
The broadest measure of U.S. unemployment (which includes unemployed,
underemployed and discouraged workers who stopped looking for work) was
17.5% in October according to the U.S. Labor Department. The previous
high was 17.1% in December 1982.
You won't have even the potential for inflation until the official
unemployment numbers in the US falls to below 8%.
> If GDP is up, and the use of labour is not also up, then it
> means cost increases are making it into the supply chain.
No.
It means that various levels of gov't are spending more, and that what
they're buying is being provided by the current pool of employed people
- working overtime if they have to.
The spending habbits of US consumers are becoming increasingly
unpredictable as this recession drags on, and you can't predict
inflation next year until we stop talking about deflation.
> If gold is an indication, and like the past history again
> repeats itself, about 300% inflation is due in the next 5
> to 10 years.
No. Gold will crash in the next 3 - 6 months when speculators bail out
of the metal, just like they did with oil back when oil hit $147.
Tony
dollars US) that's when to sell it short down to 500 dollars an ounce.
America will likely look like Japan with at least 10 years of no growth.
America is lying about the GDP, unemployment and the stock market has been
manipulated since March 9th by the bankers and the US government. They buy
at 9:30am and 3:00pm. At some point in time the stock market will lose 50 to
90 percent and like you said gold will likely fall to 500 dollars an ounce.
Some Guy wrote:
--
Tony
Waving off inflation fears that have helped send gold soaring, he likened the
run-up in gold prices to the bubble in crude oil that collapsed, along with
the economy, after the summer of 2008.
Canuck57 wrote:
--
Canuck57
> Canuck57 wrote:
>
>> 2010 will be the year of inflation. The price we pay for our
>> governments indescression with debt and money creation.
>
> You will not see inflation here unless the Bank of Canada raises
> interest rates. The bank rate is currently 0.25%. A historic low.
That is ot how it works. Interest rates are meant to shore up currency
value. By the time rates go up, the infaltion is in the system even if
it hasn't been realized at retail.
Take US numbers, GDP up 3% but with unemplyment up to 22% that means
fewer people working and less being produced, but the costs of the goods
is higher. That is real inflation in the pipeline.
Lets ahve this conversation in 3 months, if it holds you will understand
more of the effects.
Besides, government really can't afford to raise rates this time, they
are broke. And higher rates will make it worse. Thus, a depreciation
currency is guaranteed.
> The BofC will only raise the rate if they have trouble selling federal
> debt. There is no sign of that happening.
Governments in Canada, including BC, Ontario and Quebec, as well as many
cities like Toronto and Vancouver haven't been able to raise money at
all. Ottawa survises only because it can create money. And that
creation is a devaluation bubble that could hot any time between now and
the end of 2010.
This isn't new, it is a replay of the 70's.
> The BofC is under extreme pressure to *not* raise rates because that
> will increase the value of the CDN dollar with respest to the US
> dollar. If the US raises rates, then that will give the BofC some
> leeway to do the same.
And if the CDN falls with the USD say 50%, your next litre of gaoline
might be $2. Bet your wages don't keep up. Further, want anything like
steel, rubber, bananas, coffee, they all too will double. This is
inflation due to no support on the currency.
>> I expect as our US and CAD currencies fall relative to the rest of
>> the world that costs across the board are starting to creap up.
>
> Other countries and other currencies are in no stronger position to take
> any sort of lead. That's the fallacy of your argument.
Actually not, look at Brazil in the last year. But agree in that many
are doing the same. That is why the rush on gold and hard assets.
>> Last months US numbers tell the story. GDP up 3% yet unemployment is
>> also up. That only happens because of inflation.
>
> The broadest measure of U.S. unemployment (which includes unemployed,
> underemployed and discouraged workers who stopped looking for work) was
> 17.5% in October according to the U.S. Labor Department. The previous
> high was 17.1% in December 1982.
Depends which adjustments and governemtn turd polish you use. The raw
unemployment is much higher when you include everyone.
> You won't have even the potential for inflation until the official
> unemployment numbers in the US falls to below 8%.
>
>> If GDP is up, and the use of labour is not also up, then it
>> means cost increases are making it into the supply chain.
>
> No.
>
> It means that various levels of gov't are spending more, and that what
> they're buying is being provided by the current pool of employed people
> - working overtime if they have to.
>
> The spending habbits of US consumers are becoming increasingly
> unpredictable as this recession drags on, and you can't predict
> inflation next year until we stop talking about deflation.
Yes, and as that newly created money hits the streets it becomes
inflationary. Government can create all the money it wants, but it is
inflationary as the economy value hasn't inceased at all, in fact it is
decreassing! This "recessionary".
>> If gold is an indication, and like the past history again
>> repeats itself, about 300% inflation is due in the next 5
>> to 10 years.
>
> No. Gold will crash in the next 3 - 6 months when speculators bail out
> of the metal, just like they did with oil back when oil hit $147.
I don't think crash, but perhaps correct a little and then return to new
highs. If it dips below $1000 I might find myself buying some.
Oil will go right past $150/barrel onit's next wild swing. Supply is
shrinking, consumption is neutral to expanding -- $80 is guaranteed.
And if a recovery happened, $200/barrel in under 5 years is realistic.
I call it black gold.
A couple of reasons why I don't put much credence to a recovery as with
the job losses, with the lower quality of jobs people have to take,
incomes in NA are plumeting bad. NA as an economic engine is shot,
esspecialy in Ontario/Quebec. It will not recover in 20 years. Migh
never unless you live for 100 years or more. Better get used to it, the
NA debt bubble has burst. Liberal banking built on massive never ending
bubble debt has broke. Out currency isn't worth crap.
If you are investd in cash instruments right now, you are either nuts,
insane or getting some very bad advice.
Canuck57
> When the stupidest country on Earth buys gold (India buys 200 tons at 1040
> dollars US) that's when to sell it short down to 500 dollars an ounce.
> America will likely look like Japan with at least 10 years of no growth.
> America is lying about the GDP, unemployment and the stock market has been
> manipulated since March 9th by the bankers and the US government. They buy
> at 9:30am and 3:00pm. At some point in time the stock market will lose 50 to
> 90 percent and like you said gold will likely fall to 500 dollars an ounce.
You are stark raving nuts about gold. But agree with comparing Japan
and the US. Japan tried low interest rates a little more than a decade
ago and they never existed their recession. Their economy stagnated
while government debt skyrocketed. Now peopple are taxed crazy, haven't
sen a wage increase in a decade and life is a notch or two down in the
wealth scale.
Yep, picked up a wad of TCK-B at $3.50, closed over $35. For the savvy,
a market made in heaven. Like gold, TCK-B sold 17% to Chinese and
skyrocketed.
If anything India buying gold means it is likely a good investment. A
government like India can hore 100 people just to do the analysis.
While governemtns are not always right, especially in NA, I would not be
too quick to discount this event. I sure would not call it bad news for
gold.
Canuck57
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/commodities/golds-surge-nearing-end-says-prechter/
>
> Waving off inflation fears that have helped send gold soaring, he likened the
> run-up in gold prices to the bubble in crude oil that collapsed, along with
> the economy, after the summer of 2008.
First, I wouldn't touch a gold company with a 100 foot pole. I want the
troy ounce in my safety deposit box or no deal. You pay a commission
and buy it. And hold it for 20 years.
In 20 years, it will triple or quadruple in price and preserve value.
Maybe even more. You then take it like currency outside of Canada and
sell it. Don't declare the gain and have 100% preserved the value. Or
at least I suspect many do. I wish I had bought gold 20+ year ago. And
this is why governments control it, and Americans can actually legally
buy gold bullion in the hand.
Savvy investors know that cash, savings accounts, bonds, mortgage
mutuals while being safe are depreciating assets.
Some Guy
> > You will not see inflation here unless the Bank of Canada raises
> > interest rates. The bank rate is currently 0.25%. A historic
> > low.
>
> That is not how it works. Interest rates are meant to shore up
> currency value.
I don't know if you've noticed lately, but all countries are right now
in a race to the bottom when it comes to currency values. Nobody wants
to have a high-value currency at the moment, because it kills exports,
and exports = jobs.
So nobody wants to "shore up" their currency right now. Least of all
the US.
> By the time rates go up, the inflation is in the system
There is a lot of talk about printing money and the spectre of
inflation.
So far it's all just hot air.
The truth is that right now, cash is valuable because nobody wants to
lend it - people and banks are hoarding it. Banks are making money on
overdraft and other bank charges. They don't need to piss money away on
low-interest loans, lines of credit, etc. Lots of people got out of the
stock market and into cash for the past year - or 5.
> Take US numbers, GDP up 3% but with unemplyment up to 22% that
> means fewer people working and less being produced, but the
> costs of the goods is higher.
The cost of goods is *higher* ???
On what planet?
> That is real inflation in the pipeline.
>
> Lets ahve this conversation in 3 months, if it holds you will
> understand more of the effects.
Consumer prices will be the same, or slightly lower 3 months from now.
> > The BofC will only raise the rate if they have trouble
> > selling federal debt. There is no sign of that happening.
>
> Governments in Canada, including BC, Ontario and Quebec, as well
> as many cities like Toronto and Vancouver haven't been able to
> raise money at all.
There is (basically) no such thing as municiple bonds in Canada (unlike
the US). Cities in Canada don't raise money by selling municiple bonds
(I wish they did, because that's what I'd be buying).
> Ottawa survises only because it can create money.
Ottawa creates IOU's which it then sells in return for real cash. If
nobody wants to buy those IOU's, then Ottawa must increase the interest
rate for them until they all get sold. So far, they haven't had to
increase the rates to sell what they need.
> > The BofC is under extreme pressure to *not* raise rates because
> > that will increase the value of the CDN dollar with respest to
> > the US dollar.
>
> And if the CDN falls with the USD say 50%, your next litre of
> gaoline might be $2.
The BofC would love to see the CDN fall to 75 cents US. Exporters of
ALL types (commodities, oil, finished goods) would also love to see
that.
If it fell any further, the BofC would raise interest rates, or maybe
even buy up CDN dollars in the forex market by selling USD.
> Bet your wages don't keep up. Further, want anything like
> steel, rubber, bananas, coffee, they all too will double.
The price of most things would not rise, because there's too many other
costs (refining, transport, middle-market vendors) that already account
for a good deal of the costs of what the consumer pays, and those are
already priced in terms of the CDN dollar.
If the CDN dollar were to fall overnight to 50 cents US, the most likely
the reason would be a crash of oil prices down to $20 USD. We'd then be
paying 60 or 70 cents a liter at the pump as a result - not a buck as
is the current price.
> > Other countries and other currencies are in no stronger
> > position to take any sort of lead. That's the fallacy
> > of your argument.
>
> Actually not, look at Brazil in the last year.
Brazil is a third-world peon of a country. The value of it's currency
has zero effect on global geo-politics or geo-economics.
> > The spending habbits of US consumers are becoming increasingly
> > unpredictable as this recession drags on, and you can't predict
> > inflation next year until we stop talking about deflation.
>
> Yes, and as that newly created money hits the streets it becomes
> inflationary.
Give me a call when you see that happening. So far it's not.
> Oil will go right past $150/barrel onit's next wild swing.
> Supply is shrinking,
Do you know what's happening to oil right now?
Do you know how many oil tankers are tied up just off shore, all over
the world, going nowhere? Just sitting there storing oil? Tankers are
being rented by hedge funds just like the huge oil storage tanks were
being used to store oil by hedge funds in Cushing Olkahoma as oil was
reaching ridiculous levels. New tanks were being built left and right.
Google for stories about oil tankers being tied-up off shore, just
sitting there holding oil. There is a huge amount of supply, and when
someone gets sufficiently nervous and decides to sell, then they'll all
sell and oil will crash. Probably soon after US thanksgiving.
Canuck57
> Canuck57 wrote:
>
>>> You will not see inflation here unless the Bank of Canada raises
>>> interest rates. The bank rate is currently 0.25%. A historic
>>> low.
>> That is not how it works. Interest rates are meant to shore up
>> currency value.
>
> I don't know if you've noticed lately, but all countries are right now
> in a race to the bottom when it comes to currency values. Nobody wants
> to have a high-value currency at the moment, because it kills exports,
> and exports = jobs.
Most, yet. But not all. But it is also why gold is selling. That
immutable metal will retain value on currency depreciation in at least
much better than a CD/GIC/Bond or savings account.
> So nobody wants to "shore up" their currency right now. Least of all
> the US.
Agreed. Government wants inflation for two very important reasons. And
it is why you would be a fool to lend government money:
- hyper-stagflation makes it less likely people toss the keys to the
bank, making homes ever more expnsive in the long term.
- eventually i will mean more taxes, taxes on $1/lire isn't as good as
$2/litre.
- devalues massive government debt, 100% inflation emans a $1000
government bond will buy half as much as before, and governemnt will
find it much easier.
I agree, don't watch our leaders lips on this one, tey want
hyper-stagflation.
>> By the time rates go up, the inflation is in the system
>
> There is a lot of talk about printing money and the spectre of
> inflation.
>
> So far it's all just hot air.
It always lags. As prices are "depressed" it works, but it is like
holding water back on a beaver damn. Sooner or later, somehow the damn
will break and it will come. At some point prices will stop depressing
and shortages will occur. At that point the system has lost elasticity
and inflation will pass through.
Already happening if last months US numbers are correct. Higher GDP
with elss workers and less wages means prices increases are coming into
the supply chains. If they cannot be passed on, then more economic
reductions will occur.
> The truth is that right now, cash is valuable because nobody wants to
> lend it - people and banks are hoarding it. Banks are making money on
> overdraft and other bank charges. They don't need to piss money away on
> low-interest loans, lines of credit, etc. Lots of people got out of the
> stock market and into cash for the past year - or 5.
True. But don't follow the herd. Just like a buffalo jump. The herd
too was in the market Sept/Oct 2008....
>> Take US numbers, GDP up 3% but with unemplyment up to 22% that
>> means fewer people working and less being produced, but the
>> costs of the goods is higher.
>
> The cost of goods is *higher* ???
If the currency goes down in value (inflation from currency), and goods
are more or less "world" priced, the cost of the goods is more, yep.
> On what planet?
This one.
>> That is real inflation in the pipeline.
>>
>> Lets ahve this conversation in 3 months, if it holds you will
>> understand more of the effects.
>
> Consumer prices will be the same, or slightly lower 3 months from now.
Only if the elasticity in the pricing exists to do so. For many items
like food and necessities it will pass through as inflation.
>>> The BofC will only raise the rate if they have trouble
>>> selling federal debt. There is no sign of that happening.
>> Governments in Canada, including BC, Ontario and Quebec, as well
>> as many cities like Toronto and Vancouver haven't been able to
>> raise money at all.
>
> There is (basically) no such thing as municiple bonds in Canada (unlike
> the US). Cities in Canada don't raise money by selling municiple bonds
> (I wish they did, because that's what I'd be buying).
I wouldn't lend ANYONE money unless I was assured of a rate well above
inflation and taxes and 100% guaranteed to retain value. I don't care
what form it is.
As a lender, you have all the risk and almost no rewards. Credit should
be tighter than the crack of a fat ladies ass a sitting.
>> Ottawa survises only because it can create money.
>
> Ottawa creates IOU's which it then sells in return for real cash. If
> nobody wants to buy those IOU's, then Ottawa must increase the interest
> rate for them until they all get sold. So far, they haven't had to
> increase the rates to sell what they need.
And as more of that cash makes it into the economy the more is hoarded.
But when the hoarding stops, inflation will go nuts and you will see a
mini-boom period and inflation will go right with it.
When the boom ends, the currency value will crash. As money is
everywhere. Might as well get used to the $1000 bill, it might be
pocket change before too long. As this time, government can't shore up
the currency with rates as they are bankrupt debtors themselves.
>>> The BofC is under extreme pressure to *not* raise rates because
>>> that will increase the value of the CDN dollar with respest to
>>> the US dollar.
>> And if the CDN falls with the USD say 50%, your next litre of
>> gaoline might be $2.
>
> The BofC would love to see the CDN fall to 75 cents US. Exporters of
> ALL types (commodities, oil, finished goods) would also love to see
> that.
Yes, because it means 33% more taxes from commodities like oil,
gasoline, steel and even GST. It also means you will inflationarly pay
more for these. It isn't what is good for the people driving this, it
is government greed.
> If it fell any further, the BofC would raise interest rates, or maybe
> even buy up CDN dollars in the forex market by selling USD.
Perhaps. But I suspect the USD and CAD will fall together, and looking
at the currency charts a little of this has already happened. US isn't
going to raise interest rates any time soon, they too are broke. 1% on
$12 trillion is a lot of cash flow.
>> Bet your wages don't keep up. Further, want anything like
>> steel, rubber, bananas, coffee, they all too will double.
>
> The price of most things would not rise, because there's too many other
> costs (refining, transport, middle-market vendors) that already account
> for a good deal of the costs of what the consumer pays, and those are
> already priced in terms of the CDN dollar.
It only does as long as the economy is in active recession. This cycle
is not new. It is a repeat of 1982 and 1929.
> If the CDN dollar were to fall overnight to 50 cents US, the most likely
> the reason would be a crash of oil prices down to $20 USD. We'd then be
> paying 60 or 70 cents a liter at the pump as a result - not a buck as
> is the current price.
Not likely. More like the USD and CAD fall 10% per night together for 5
days against the world currency averages, yes, I can see that. Canada
may fall 8% to say a USD 10% drop, because of our commodities like oil
and coal.
>>> Other countries and other currencies are in no stronger
>>> position to take any sort of lead. That's the fallacy
>>> of your argument.
>> Actually not, look at Brazil in the last year.
>
> Brazil is a third-world peon of a country. The value of it's currency
> has zero effect on global geo-politics or geo-economics.
Not any more. Their currency appreciate 33% against the CAD/USD in the
last year. Want coffee beans? Going to cost you more. In fact, it has
already.
>>> The spending habbits of US consumers are becoming increasingly
>>> unpredictable as this recession drags on, and you can't predict
>>> inflation next year until we stop talking about deflation.
>> Yes, and as that newly created money hits the streets it becomes
>> inflationary.
>
> Give me a call when you see that happening. So far it's not.
>
>> Oil will go right past $150/barrel onit's next wild swing.
>> Supply is shrinking,
>
> Do you know what's happening to oil right now?
>
> Do you know how many oil tankers are tied up just off shore, all over
> the world, going nowhere? Just sitting there storing oil? Tankers are
> being rented by hedge funds just like the huge oil storage tanks were
> being used to store oil by hedge funds in Cushing Olkahoma as oil was
> reaching ridiculous levels. New tanks were being built left and right.
>
> Google for stories about oil tankers being tied-up off shore, just
> sitting there holding oil. There is a huge amount of supply, and when
> someone gets sufficiently nervous and decides to sell, then they'll all
> sell and oil will crash. Probably soon after US thanksgiving.
Yep, I follow oil closely. If oil falls out below say $60, watch out,
the economy is shuting right down. Unemployment will hit 35% or more.
At $50, it is below cost but for a few.
We live in economically dangerious times.
Some Guy
> > I don't know if you've noticed lately, but all countries are
> > right now in a race to the bottom when it comes to currency
> > values.
>
> Most, yes. But not all.
All of the currencies that really matter.
> But it is also why gold is selling.
Oil was selling well too, right up to the point when it hit $147.
Speculators and hedge funds are driving up the price of gold. Their
manipulation of that commodity does not reflect the actions of true
market forces.
> That immutable metal will retain value on currency depreciation
> in at least much better than a CD/GIC/Bond or savings account.
And how many people were predicting oil at $200?
Profit takers will insure that the average joe will get burned if he
plays with gold as an investment. The future of gold (and most
commodities) will be a roller coaster which will make most investors
sick.
> Government wants inflation for two very important reasons.
Gov'ts don't want inflation:
-------------------
Wave of Debt Payments Facing US Government
http://www.cnbc.com/id/34104722
With the national debt now topping $12 trillion, the White House
estimates that the government�s tab for servicing the debt will exceed
$700 billion a year in 2019, up from $202 billion this year.
So far, the demand for Treasury securities from investors and other
governments around the world has remained strong enough to hold down the
interest rates that the United States must offer to sell them. Indeed,
the government paid less interest on its debt this year than in 2008,
even though it added almost $2 trillion in debt.
The government�s average interest rate on new borrowing last year fell
below 1 percent. For short-term i.o.u.�s like one-month Treasury bills,
its average rate was only sixteen-hundredths of a percent.
�All of the auction results have been solid,� said Matthew Rutherford,
the Treasury�s deputy assistant secretary in charge of finance
operations. �Investor demand has been very broad, and it�s been
increasing in the last couple of years.�
--------------------
As I've been saying, the US gov't is having no problems selling debt, at
interest rates close to zero percent.
If ever there was a time for the US and Canadian gov'ts to build up
debt, now is the time. If this debt can be paid off before interest
rates start to rise, then no harm would have been done.
Gov'ts are going into debt to stimulate the economy. Inflation will not
happen unless or until the economy is stimulated and unemployment
falls. Interest rates will not rise until inflation starts to happen.
Gov't tax reveune will increase as the economy recovers. As gov't
revenue increases, it can pay down the debt.
> I agree, don't watch our leaders lips on this one, they want
> hyper-stagflation.
What the hell, exactly, is "hyper-stagflation" ?
> > The cost of goods is *higher* ???
> > On what planet?
> If the currency goes down in value
Which currency?
And in relation to what other currency?
The fact that gold is rising with respect to USD, CAD, Euro, Yen, etc,
is meaningless and inconsequential to national economies.
Gold is not a currency. Gold is not the national currency of any
country.
I will not pay more for the cornflakes on my breakfast table next week
because gold went up $50 last week.
The US gov't is selling all the bonds it want to, at interest rates
close to zero percent, even though gold went up $200 over the past few
months.
The silly thing is that I *would* pay more for my cornflakes if oil goes
up because oil is actually used by the trucks that haul it to the
grocery store. But gold plays almost no role in the real economy.
That's its weakness.
Gold is a novelty item. It used to be what actual coins were made of.
But as a commodity, it has very little real commercial or industrial
usage. That's why you can count on it's price to show high volitility
as market traders, hedge funds and speculators screw around with each
other.
People can make due without gold jewellery - but not oil.
And remember that gold is never destroyed. The supply of gold is always
increasing, and it's rate of supply will increase as it's price
increases, which will put a negative drag on the price (as supply
increases, price will decrease).
> When the boom ends, the currency value will crash.
Which currency will crash?
And in relation to which other currency?
Again, you keep confusing gold as being a currency.
How can you explain gold rising in value right now, in the face of
global interest rates that are at historic low levels?
That is certainly an indication that gold is over-valued and is primed
for a crash.
> This cycle is not new. It is a repeat of 1982 and 1929.
Give me a call when interest rates are heading north of 8%, just like in
1982.
Until then, we are NOT repeating that cycle.
> > Brazil is a third-world peon of a country. The value of it's
> > currency has zero effect on global geo-politics or geo-
> >economics.
>
> Not any more. Their currency appreciate 33% against the CAD/USD
> in the last year.
Brazil is still a backwards third-world peon of a country no matter what
it's currency does.
> Want coffee beans? Going to cost you more. In fact, it has
> already.
Only about 10% of what you pay for coffee at the grocery store is for
the actual coffee. The rest is processing, transportation, marketing,
packaging, etc.
> Yep, I follow oil closely. If oil falls out below say $60, watch
> out, the economy is shuting right down.
Given the current economy, oil should be $60 right now, not $70 or $80.
The speculators are trying to hoard oil, but they are running out of
places to store it, and the money to pay for it's storage.
Canuck57
> Canuck57 wrote:
>
>>> I don't know if you've noticed lately, but all countries are
>>> right now in a race to the bottom when it comes to currency
>>> values.
>> Most, yes. But not all.
>
> All of the currencies that really matter.
That is why gold, oil, some hard commodity is good. Treat it like
currency. That way if the dollar has 300% inflation, the $80 barrel
will be $240 or more.
Cash, wrong answer. Cash is a depreciable asset.
>> But it is also why gold is selling.
>
> Oil was selling well too, right up to the point when it hit $147.
Still is, buy low, sell high and ride the cycles.
> Speculators and hedge funds are driving up the price of gold. Their
> manipulation of that commodity does not reflect the actions of true
> market forces.
I agree a little, gold already has factored int he hit. A little late
to buy it and get the big bang for the buck.
>> That immutable metal will retain value on currency depreciation
>> in at least much better than a CD/GIC/Bond or savings account.
>
> And how many people were predicting oil at $200?
I will. It is only a mater of time. People said the same thing about
$30, $50, $75, $100, $130... and all were wrong.
This isn't 1965 where 6 cents will buy a 16 ounce soda and chocolate
bar. In 30+ year people will say was oil so cheap as $80?
One should always factor in inflation in financial planning.
> Profit takers will insure that the average joe will get burned if he
> plays with gold as an investment. The future of gold (and most
> commodities) will be a roller coaster which will make most investors
> sick.
Agreed if it is outside of this paradym. The paraym being, buy gold in
good times and sell gold in bad times. If you followed this, you would
have bought a lot of gold under $400 in 2004/5 and be selling it at 350%
profit today. Not a bad 5 year ROI. In 1982 and other recessions, the
same is true.
>> Government wants inflation for two very important reasons.
>
> Gov'ts don't want inflation:
Governments want inflation. Don't watch their lips, watch their
actions. Borrow lots of cheap money, and let inflation devalue it while
taxes increase. You bet government wants inflation. So do the banks,
less people will toss keys to the bank if the house price is appreciating.
Government is trying to spend itself out of a recession and it is going
to come with one hell of inflationary headache. Just like Turdeau and
the 70's.
Government statism and greed is so predicatable.
> -------------------
> Wave of Debt Payments Facing US Government
>
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/34104722
>
> With the national debt now topping $12 trillion, the White House
> estimates that the government�s tab for servicing the debt will exceed
> $700 billion a year in 2019, up from $202 billion this year.
>
> So far, the demand for Treasury securities from investors and other
> governments around the world has remained strong enough to hold down the
> interest rates that the United States must offer to sell them. Indeed,
> the government paid less interest on its debt this year than in 2008,
> even though it added almost $2 trillion in debt.
>
> The government�s average interest rate on new borrowing last year fell
> below 1 percent. For short-term i.o.u.�s like one-month Treasury bills,
> its average rate was only sixteen-hundredths of a percent.
>
> �All of the auction results have been solid,� said Matthew Rutherford,
> the Treasury�s deputy assistant secretary in charge of finance
> operations. �Investor demand has been very broad, and it�s been
> increasing in the last couple of years.�
Some Guy
> Google for stories about oil tankers being tied-up off shore,
> just sitting there holding oil. There is a huge amount of
> supply, and when someone gets sufficiently nervous and decides
> to sell, then they'll all sell and oil will crash.
>
> Probably soon after US thanksgiving.
It's one day after thanksgiving, and oil is below $74.
Gold has fallen $40 from it's high yesterday.
Geoffrey Welsh
>> just sitting there holding oil. There is a huge amount of
>> supply, and when someone gets sufficiently nervous and decides
>> to sell, then they'll all sell and oil will crash.
I don't buy that stockpiling rumour.
What's worldwide oil production these days? I seem to recall it being in
the 60 or 70 million barrel PER DAY range.
What does an oil tanker hold? A million barrels? Two? So, you'd need
dozens of tankers tied up to hold ONE DAY's production. Just how much oil -
in terms of days' supply - do you think is (was) being held in waiting and
how many multimillion dollar ships are you going to tie up to hold it?
On the other hand, there very certainly IS one huge tanker tied up. It's
the longest ship ever built, it's even too big to navigate the English
channel... so it's being used as an offshore loading facility. Don't
confuse that with 'parked' oil.
The speculation happens at the market level, not the physical level. It
isn't oil being held for a better price, it's futures contracts.
That said, consider this: large oil companies like Shell, BP, etc. do a lot
of their own exploration and extraction and/or have long term supply
contracts; much of their crude oil is not bought on the spot market, so
their costs do not necessarily track the price of oil you hear quoted on the
radio every day. But the price of gasoline does... Nice scam, that.
Geoffrey Welsh
> I don't buy that stockpiling rumour.
I stand (sit?) corrected. In today's Globe and Mail, Emma Farge reports on
"Oil product tankers idling in quiet waters of the world's oceans":
"Banks, oil majors and trading companies with access to cheap credit [...]
are buying gas oil, storing it on idle tankers in sheltered parts of the
English Channel, Singapore and the Mediterranean and selling it at a higher
price later."
However, I would observe two things:
(1) The contents of the tanker are not crude oil, they are refined products
such as Diesel and heating fuel;
(2) The estimated volume of refined oil products in floating storage is...
wait for it... 100 million barrels. No, wait, there's another 35 million
barrels of crude oil stored, too.
I have to admit I'm floored: I would never have thought that so many ships
would be occupied just holding oil products. On the other hand, even if we
assume that it takes two or more barrells of crude oil to make a barrell of
those refined products, we're still only talking about a few days' worth of
worldwide production, which should not be enough to pull of a long-term
market manipulation.
The article goes on to say that these tankers will probably be offloaded
if/when demand picks up and/or refineries are shut down, and that they
should cushion the impact of either. Not that we'll see that at the pumps.