[obsid] Theft and the Homeless
Spike
my home in Franklin street. He tells me that Vetus Schola have been
confiscating the trolleys they use AND the contents of the trolleys.
He also told me that the officer said it was because of the World
Cup.
At the moment this is just hear-say and may not be based on fact.
If it is so then I would think that the Vetus Schola officers were
acting illegally. While it is probable that at some time in the past
the trolleys were indeed stolen; there is no proof at this time. I can
not believe that it is legal to steal someone personal belongings just
because they are homeless and in possession of a suspect trolley. Or
worse because there is to be a football match.
More concerning is that most of these people consider the collection
of scrap and cardboard their 'work'; they do it to get money for food.
They can't do that with out the trolleys. You now have people with no
sleeping materials and no work on the streets of Obs.
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Brian & Sue Amery
Observatory has about 70 "street people" some of whom sleep in Obs at night
time. The Obsid has a database of these people which has been compiled by
Kenneth Roman, our dedicated social worker. Many of them have severe drug
and alcohol dependency problems. Over the last five months all of them have
been met and interviewed by Kenneth and a few, very few, have been helped
back into society. It is our intention to assist as many as possible to get
into shelter, then into rehab programs, then back into society.
In terms of SA's constitution "Everyone has .......the right to have their
dignity respected and protected". How does that marry up to living as an
addict on the streets of Obs? Surely it does not.
But here's the rub - for so long as there is a "living" to be made
scavenging our dirt bins and panhandling our residents and our visitors - we
perpetuate the problem. People who gain cheap security by allowing vagrants
to sleep on their stoeps, people who put waste food on top of their wheely
bins, and people who give the vagrants money, which ends up destroying their
livers and enriching the bottle stores, achieve sweet nothing apart from
perpetuating the problem. How do those actions meet our constitutional
obligations to respect and protect dignity. These people are broken. If you
saw a bird with a broken leg you would tend to it, assist it and hopefully
cure it. To break its other leg does not help.
You state "at the moment it is just hear-say and may not be based on fact"
thanks for that. I have learned to become thick skinned around allegations
against Vetus Schola personnel. I have had drug dealers accuse them of
dealing in drugs, I have had accusations of the use of excessive force, of
taking bribes and so on and on and on. My response is always the same - Are
you prepared to lay a charge with the police? So far this has not happened.
We are confiscating trolleys. They are stolen property. It has nothing to do
with the world cup - anyway which world cup are we talking about!
We are not taking possessions, we take the people concerned to the place
they want to be, we unload their possessions and we take the trolley back to
a central point for collection by the owners.
We have to be cruel to be kind. We have to break the circle. The Obsid has a
stick and carrot approach to our vagrancy problem. We will approach all of
our vagrants and assess their needs, we will do our utmost to help them and
you would be amazed at the diversity of their needs. But there will be those
who refuse to be helped, unfortunately these are the ones for whom we will
make life difficult in Obs until they move along. I know it doesn't solve
the problem and there is nothing I can do about that. But we are trying to
deliver on our promise of a "safer, cleaner, smarter" Obs
Best wishes
Brian
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Julia Teale
to be informed of the measures taken to assist the homeless in Observatory.
Perhaps those concerned will then stop giving hand-outs, which exacerbate
the problem and rather support these initiatives?
Julia
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Spike
impressed with the way they co-operate with both ADT and the Police. I
understand that they will have false accusations made against them,
sadly that comes with the job. If they did make the silly comment
about the World Cup I'm sure it was out of embarrassment, in an
attempt to justify, the unpleasant task they were told to perform.
..."We are confiscating trolleys. They are stolen property." ...
..."We are not taking possessions, we take the people concerned to the
they want to be, we unload their possessions and we take the trolley
back to
Frankly I feel this is, at best, callous. Where should they ask to
have their possessions dumped?. They are Homeless!
Once dumped they will be moved on - but this time without their
possessions because they don't have their trolleys any more. They
can't keep their possessions and keep moving.
Will you be considering other actions to help "make life difficult in
Obs" for those who choose to decline your offer of help? Maybe have a
water tanker hose them down each night?
As for the Trolleys being stolen; yes, most probably were at some
point. But the individual who is being harassed is not given the
consideration that he or she may well have found it at the side of the
road 3rd or 8th hand. And Yes, stolen property remains stolen until
returned to it's rightful owners - but it will also become 'worthless'
in time. Having your possesions dummped nowhere in particular is heavy
penaly for being in possession of a zero value item someone you don't
know stole it from someone you don't know. We could get into a
"Proudhonion" debate about the theft, property, salvage, laws etc but
the bottom line is that if the original owners really wanted them back
they would have collected them. Even then, unlike the OID agents, they
would probably hesitate because of the negative feelings (discomfort
and distress) it would generate with zero financial return.
I would be interested to hear Kenneth's comments on this - I think he
will find communicating with the homeless a little harder from now on.
Finally I must apologise for the quotes from your post - it is a too-
easy 'tool' to use in a written debate and discourages people from
writing and engaging. I hope I have not taken your points out of
context.
spike
j...@windowline.co.za
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!
JustinA
taking to address the issue of homeless people in Obs.
But although you criticise what we are doing I don't see suggestions
in your mails to deal with the issue any other way. Are you suggesting
we should simply "leave them be"? Or do you have a more creative
solution you would like to see implemented?
Homelessness is a vexing issue on so many fronts and trying to deal
with it is complex and difficult. We would welcome any ideas you might
have to help us.
Regards
Justin
Sent from my iPhone
Spike
- The deliberate causing of further distress to people who are not in
a good position to cope with it in the hope that they will move along
to someone else's area. (I would however have no problem distressing
"acned gangster" taggers).
- Preventing the homeless for doing the only 'real' work (income)
they have of recycling paper and scrap.
- Making simple things like keeping possession of their clothes and
bedding extremely difficult.
I was prompted to to comment on this particular policy by the distress
expressed to me, "I can't work, I will have to beg". Beggars don't
like begging. I realise that recycling paper and scrap by homeless
people is not valued as a 'job' by the homed and employed; but it is
by the homeless, it gives them self-respect and a feeling of worth.
I obviously don't have an answer (other wise I would have told you
what it was!) but I do know that antagoniseing and abusing the weak
just won't work as a long term policy. Having lived in similar
situations myself I obviously sympathetic to the day to day problems
of cold, hunger and harassment. As a simple logical human I can tell
you emphatically that two wrongs will not make a right. And this
policy is not right.
I also realise that the ObsID was set up to promote property value for
property owners and not as a welfare institution for the homeless. The
ObsID is the wrong forum for my opinions on the homeless and will drop
this subject on this forum.
Shepherd, Perren
I for one am concerned that the money that I pay towards the OBSID might be used to harass the poor. I believe that the poor should have freedom of movement, and should not be driven from any area, be it Obs, Gugs, or Bishops Court. I hear that the OBSID is trying to engage with the homeless in the area, in an effort to offer them other options in their lives. This is to be commended. (I think it would be a good idea to have a public meeting where Kenneth Roman, the social worker could explain what is being done in this regard). But at the same time I do not feel that it is the right course of action to harass unreasonably those that choose (or those who feel helpless to change) to continue living hand to mouth on the street. (Yes, of course I do get irritated by constantly being asked for a hand out, and many's the time I say NO, but I do not want a uniformed security service standing between me and the poor. I do not want to see the marginalized put under more pressure).
I do not want a cleaner safer smarter Obs if it is to be a heartless suburb. South Africa is a country marked by huge inequalities and I for one do not wish to live in an area that is unsympathetic to the hardships of others. Surely we do not wish to drive people away from our area just so that we are not reminded of the harsh realities of daily life faced by many in this country? I am not saying that we should lie down and let the unsavory lowlife criminals run over us. If someone is breaking the law they must suffer the consequences. But there are many people for example who survive by going through our suburb's refuse. This is not criminal as far as I know, and I don't think that if someone is eking out an existence in this manner, with the aid of trolley, that they should be driven away.
As far as confiscating trolleys - I am not in favour of this - are Vetus Schola not acting in this regard as police, judge and jury, finding against the vagrant and enforcing a sentence? We do not know the full history behind every trolley - surely innocent until proved guilty should apply here? Confiscating a trolley may not seem like a big issue to some, but taking something away from another person without their consent is not good, and once that line is crossed, what else may follow?
What exactly is the mandate that Vetus Schola has regards improving security in our area? I think that it is important that this is made public, and is open to discussion.
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From: obsid...@googlegroups.com [mailto:obsid...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Spike
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 22:44
To: Observatory Improvement District - Chat
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meindert hoving
You wrote
' I also realise that the ObsID was set up to promote property value
property owners and not as a welfare institution for the homeless.
The
ObsID is the wrong forum for my opinions on the homeless and will
drop
Although true, I would say that is the exact reason to work closely
with the OBSID to address this issue.
I would think there are only three support pillars with budget and a
mandate to deal with the issue;
That would be the City of Cape Town, NGO like the 'The Haven' and the
OBSID.
I (as home owner) am glad to see the OBSID picking up issues that the
City is not addressing, and am glad to pay rates towards this.
I think it's great to have the 'voice of the homeless' taking part in
discusions about the OBSID!
Meindert
>
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Andrew Fife
Jonathan Endersby
This topic is also close to my heart and it is indeed incredibly tough
to balance the responsibility of society and compassion towards the
homeless.
We must not however lose sight of the fact that most, if not all, of
the homeless people living in Observatory have options and are
constantly given opportunities to clean up their lives and live in
shelters, half way houses or move back with their families.
It is easy for me with my bleeding-heart-liberal hat on (one that I
wear most of the time) to argue the case for the homeless, but, as an
analyst I have to face up to the somewhat uncomfortable truth. Most of
these individuals are living lives that swing between sobriety and
inebriation on an almost daily basis. Many are verbally abusive to
residents, often have heated "discussions" with each other in our
streets and are frequently found drinking, urinating and more in our
public spaces. For many their addiction is as much to alcohol as it is
to living on the streets.
Obsid made a concious decision to take a holistic approach to the
problem by working with, and supporting, the social support
structures (in the form of Kenneth Roman, Home SPM etc) while
simultaneously taking a tough stance on the criminal actions. Those
individuals that want help can get it.
As stewards of the community we all have the responsibility of helping
those in need, but we also need to be cognisant of the facts.
Addictions, whether to a chemical or a dysfunctional lifestyle, are
powerful and addicts are expert manipulators. We must not be enablers.
A hand up, not a hand out etc etc. Taking a lackadaisical approach to
this issue will serve persist the cycle of abuse and homelessness.
Again, there are options. These individuals have chosen to not take them.
The issue of gainful employment is important. Already the Obsid
employs a large number of individuals who would otherwise mostly be
unemployed. It makes me incredibly happy to see the Street Cleaners,
Straat Werk graffiti teams, Patrick, The Vetus Schola security guards
etc. Knowing that my contribution is able to directly help so many
people is heartwarming.
I look forward to the day that Obsid can gainfully employ some of the
individuals who have cleaned up their act and moved into halfway
houses etc. This employment will hopefully take the form of recycling
programs which will not only benefit them, but all of us.
As with many of the complicated social issues this country faces, it
is far too easy to oversimplify the core issues and as a result many
of the steps that are taken can appear unfair.. There are however
experts in this field... People who have worked with the homeless for
years and have successfully reintroduced many individuals to
functional society. We must take our lead from these experts.
Regards
Jonathan.
Jonathan Endersby
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Melanie Hoffman
In fact we are going to get some legal advice on how it is possible for
Vetus to take a trolley.
Have they got a judgement? Or on what grounds can they assume this is stolen
and play police.
It cannot be that easy. It's cruel and heartless. And how exactly is that
now again OBSID's business. First a tennis club, now taking trolleys from
vagrants ...
Hoffmans
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Just Rich
The Trolleys are the property of the Supermarket, they are purchased
by them at substantial cost and REMAIN their property verbatim!!!!!!!
I'm 100% behind VS, they are doing an AWESOME job.
No legal advice required or are we getting all upset about the tennis
Courts again.
Stick to the Agenda, Support Vetus Schola they have made Obz a safer,
happier place for all.
>
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Melanie Hoffman
If the supermarket does not lay a claim, there is no crime.
No body - no murder, as much blood as you want.
Something gets stolen, you report it, it gets investigated, goes to court
and then the goods go back. Called legal system.
Obsid employing Vetus who grab trolleys, dump contents on allegation of
theft - = what?
Vetus is not the judge, jury, executioner, neither is OBSid.
It cannot be right this way.
That's why I want legal clarification and will update you accordingly.
And Leeds won!
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Spike
"Stick to the Agenda, Support Vetus Schola they have made Obz a safer, happier place for all."
Jonathan Endersby
So by your logic, if Vetus Schola see a guy carrying an LCD TV down
the road, they should not intervene unless someone has gone to the
police and laid a charge?
Also, your argument re bodies and murder prosecution is specious.
There have been plenty of bodiless murder convictions ever since the
1920s when the legal requirement for a body was dropped.
Supermarkets do lay claim. Pick 'n Pay counts their losses due to
shopping trolley theft as R1 million annually and go to great lengths
to point out that shopping trolleys can never be sold.
Regards
Jonathan.
Jonathan Endersby
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Spike
But I can do that - I have a phone, I can read phone books and (simple) legal documents. I have the money to have my hair cut first if needed (apparently long hair and a beard can still be an impediment to being treated with respect by authority).
The reality of the trolleys is that the supper markets don't want them back - most are decades old and unrepairable. Very very few are being pushed by the person that stole them. A mass confiscation of trolleys would probably result in good trolleys being stolen.
There are degrees of wrong, from murder to failing to report a color change on your vehicle. In my mind, and thankfully the mids of other Obs residents, distressing the weak is a greater wrong than being in possession of a stolen trolley that nobody else wants.
Just Rich
Maybe some people would like the supermarkets to employ the European
Model and insist on chaining up their trolleys, a trolley thus costs
you a cash deposit for the duration of your shopping experience.
If vetus Schola and the Supermarkets can come to an agreement, I'm
sure it would be mutually benefit for both parties.
And most importantly (in my humble opinion)...............
the Criminal Element receive yet another crushing blow in the removal
of one of vehicles to transport and conceal stolen goods.
On May 25, 10:15 am, Jonathan Endersby <arbitraryu...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jonathan Endersby
Vetus Schola (as do all members of the public) have the right to
execute a citizens arrest (to hold someone temporarily while waiting
for the police) if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has
been committed.
Criminal Procedures Act - Section 42:
------------ SNIP ----------
42. Arrest by private person without warrant.— (1) Any private
person may without warrant
arrest any person—
(a) who commits or attempts to commit in his presence or
whom he reasonably suspects
of having committed an offence referred to in Schedule 1;
(b) whom he reasonably believes to have committed any
offence and to be escaping from
and to be freshly pursued by a person whom such
private person reasonably believes
to have authority to arrest that person for that offence;
(c) whom he is by any law authorized to arrest without
warrant in respect of any offence
specified in that law;
(d) whom he sees engaged in an affray.
(2) Any private person who may without warrant arrest any
person under subsection (1) (a)
may forthwith pursue that person, and any other private person to whom
the purpose of the pursuit
has been made known, may join and assist therein.
(3) The owner, lawful occupier or person in charge of property
on or in respect of which any
person is found committing any offence, and any person authorized
thereto by such owner, occupier
or person in charge, may without warrant arrest the person so found.
------------ SNIP ----------
In the case of the trolleys there is no doubt that they are stolen property.
J.
--
Jonathan Endersby
Just Rich
On May 25, 11:04 am, Jonathan Endersby <arbitraryu...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Quote:
> In the case of the trolleys there is no doubt that they are stolen property!!!
j...@windowline.co.za
shopping trolley. It was a huge couch and the trail was easy to follow.
I found the couch in a shop and had the police come and investigate. They
were reluctant to charge the shop owner as they said that it was not
possible for the shop owner to know that the goods were stolen. I demanded
to speak to the station officer (someone senior) to discuss the issue. I
argued that the shop owner should have been suspicious as the goods were
transported on a shopping trolley that was obviously stolen. She agreed with
this point and they laid charges against the shop owner.
It can be reasonably agued that a person in posession of a shopping
trolley - not used for shopping - is in posession of stolen goods.
Jonathan Endersby
If you feel like a little bit of "light" reading you should read the
Second Hand Goods Act (2009)
Section 21, "Records by Dealers" is quite interesting as it requires
the seller to provide an ID Number and some form of proof of identity
(eg. an ID book). It would be interesting to see if the shop in
question is a registered dealer.
The act defines a dealer as "a person who carries on a business of
dealing in second-hand goods, and includes a scrap metal dealer and a
pawnbroker".
And then section 2 states "Every person who carries on a business as a
dealer must be registered.".
So, if the shop isn't registered they're contravening the act... If
they are registered it would be very interesting to see whether they
have records for your couch.
Unfortunately you might need to "point out" the Second Hand Goods act
to whomever your investigating officer is.
http://www.info.gov.za/view/DownloadFileAction?id=98612
J.
James Cowley
Sitting on the trolley, I meant fence? Hi
My neighbour across the road in Scott Road, woke up early one morning, about a year ago, having heard the very squeaky sound of a trolley and muffled voices. Quickly checking out his window he somehow missed the noise makers. He somehow glanced onto his stoep to where his cast iron bath should be standing and found it to be missing. Realising the situation he quickly went outside, ran down to Campbell Street and saw the perpetrators hurrying off with 'his' bath on ‘their’ trolley. The three ‘cast iron bath men’ lifted and passed the ‘cast iron bath’ over his property fence, had it balanced on a shopping trolley and made it their getaway mode of transport. Ahumm. Eishh, imagine one whitey pushing one cast iron bath UP Scott Road!
About two years ago, the days before Vetus Schola meant anything to us, around 4 pm my wife and I checked this wheely bin coming down Scott Road being hurriedly pushed by a stroller and his mate. I called and walked up to them as I saw the bin belonging to a Lytton Street friend of mine. I checked them and wanted to see what was inside. I was told, “Ney man, its just bricks which they have scored from the oak who was building there around the corner. “Orrait’, I let them be, and off they went. Our son, who lives at the top end of Milton Road phoned us about 7 pm to say his computer was taken from his passage that afternoon while he was having a snooze. I said, ‘Ag shame man’ but my wife piped up saying that our son’s computer was probably in the bin which we saw earlier that day. He and a few cronies zooted off to Salt River and found a toppled over discarded bin. They positively identified the bin that it was the one which we saw being pushed, as a piece of his computer casing was broken off, and was still lying inside the bin. So close, but still so asleep, the computer was stolen from Milton, was carried around the corner into Lytton, the bin was grabbed, the computer was dumped inside and the rest was history, a great loss.
As much as I am saddened too, the trolley and bin strollers need to take the Hand Up, and not trust in the Hand Down alternatives.
James
Spike
James Cowley wrote:
�Sitting on the trolley,� I meant fence? Hi
�
My neighbour across the road in Scott Road, woke up�early one morning, about a year ago, having heard the very squeaky sound of a trolley and muffled voices.� Quickly checking out his window he somehow missed the noise makers.� He somehow glanced onto his stoep to where his cast iron bath should be standing and found it to be missing.� Realising the situation he quickly went outside, ran down to Campbell Street and saw the perpetrators hurrying off with 'his' bath on �their� trolley.� The three �cast iron bath men� lifted and passed the �cast iron bath� over his property fence, had it balanced on a shopping trolley and made it their getaway mode of transport. Ahumm. Eishh, imagine one whitey pushing one cast iron bath�UP Scott Road!
�
About two years ago, the days before Vetus Schola meant anything to us, around 4 pm my wife and I checked this wheely bin coming down Scott Road being hurriedly pushed by a stroller and his mate. I called and walked up to them as I saw the bin belonging to a Lytton Street friend of mine.� I checked them and wanted to see what was inside. I was told, �Ney man, its just bricks which they have scored from the oak who was building there around the corner.� �Orrait�, I let them be, and off they went.� Our son, who lives at the top end of Milton Road phoned us about 7 pm to say his computer was taken from his passage that afternoon while he was having a snooze. �I said, �Ag shame man� but my wife piped up saying that our son�s computer was probably in the bin which we saw earlier that day. He and a few cronies zooted off to Salt River and found a toppled over discarded bin.� They positively identified the bin that it was the one which we saw being pushed, as a piece of his computer casing was broken off, and was still lying inside the bin.� So close, but still so asleep, the computer was stolen from Milton, was carried around the corner into Lytton, the bin was grabbed, the computer was dumped inside and the rest was history, a great loss.
�
As much as I am saddened too, the trolley and bin strollers need to take the Hand Up, and not trust in the Hand Down alternatives.
�
James
�
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j...@windowline.co.za
----- Original Message -----From: SpikeSent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:34 AMSubject: Re: [obsid] Re: Theft and the Homeless
All thieves need transport. The last time I was robbed they used a VW Golf. The goods were recovered (the idiots tried to sell them to me via Gumtree!) - they were in yet another VW Golf, a light blue one this time. And this is not the first time that a VW Golf has been used to move stolen goods. Best would be to confiscate any VW Golfs in Obs.
James Cowley wrote:
Sitting on the trolley, I meant fence? Hi
My neighbour across the road in Scott Road, woke up early one morning, about a year ago, having heard the very squeaky sound of a trolley and muffled voices. Quickly checking out his window he somehow missed the noise makers. He somehow glanced onto his stoep to where his cast iron bath should be standing and found it to be missing. Realising the situation he quickly went outside, ran down to Campbell Street and saw the perpetrators hurrying off with 'his' bath on ‘their’ trolley. The three ‘cast iron bath men’ lifted and passed the ‘cast iron bath’ over his property fence, had it balanced on a shopping trolley and made it their getaway mode of transport. Ahumm. Eishh, imagine one whitey pushing one cast iron bath UP Scott Road!
About two years ago, the days before Vetus Schola meant anything to us, around 4 pm my wife and I checked this wheely bin coming down Scott Road being hurriedly pushed by a stroller and his mate. I called and walked up to them as I saw the bin belonging to a Lytton Street friend of mine. I checked them and wanted to see what was inside. I was told, “Ney man, its just bricks which they have scored from the oak who was building there around the corner. “Orrait’, I let them be, and off they went. Our son, who lives at the top end of Milton Road phoned us about 7 pm to say his computer was taken from his passage that afternoon while he was having a snooze. I said, ‘Ag shame man’ but my wife piped up saying that our son’s computer was probably in the bin which we saw earlier that day. He and a few cronies zooted off to Salt River and found a toppled over discarded bin. They positively identified the bin that it was the one which we saw being pushed, as a piece of his computer casing was broken off, and was still lying inside the bin. So close, but still so asleep, the computer was stolen from Milton, was carried around the corner into Lytton, the bin was grabbed, the computer was dumped inside and the rest was history, a great loss.
As much as I am saddened too, the trolley and bin strollers need to take the Hand Up, and not trust in the Hand Down alternatives.
James
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Spike
I give them a note with my phone number to help them protect them selfs
from being harassed by people who make assumptions like this.
Of course "normal" people like yourself and myself do not need that protection.
Anique
crime in this area there is also a fine line. People in South Africa
have basic human rights, and in this case, have we not crossed a
line? Surely then Vetus Schola needs to lay a charge with the police
re. the person and his trolley? I am not 100% sure on the law but my
gut feel is that this is not OK.
James Cowley
Just Rich
Your Opinion that maybe Mr. Spike but the statement is 100% correct,
the Trolle is STOLEN PROPERTY period.
James Cowley
dateFri, May 28, 2010 at 12:10 PM
subjectRe: [obsid] Re: Theft and the Homeless
mailed-bygmail.com
signed-bygmail.com
hide details 12:10 PM (3 hours ago)
Hi James
I read some of the arguments about the shopping trolleys and I really believe that the focus should be on trying to encourage vagrants to except the assistance that is available to them. Obsid is going to great lengths to assist vagrants in the best possible way.
We should try to understand and support the efforts of fieldworkers and NGO's that is dedicated to transform the lives of vagrants. Support the give responsibly campaign that we have been promoting for some months now in Observatory.
We sympathise with their vulnerable situation and that's why we want to get them into rehab's, shelters, skills training and back home to their families and communities of origin so that they can stand on their own feet and be successful in life.
We must admit that no one person is able to assist a vagrant alone through this process so please support our efforts. I believe that the trolleys is encouraging them to remain in the vulnerable situations that they are in currently and don't see how seriously they should except the assistance that I offer.
Please contact me if you know of any vagrants in Observatory that want my assistance with rehab, shelter accommodation, skills training or want to go back home to their families or communities of origin.
Email the details to me and I will follow up.
Kind Regards
Kenneth Roman
krho...@gmail.com
021 447 5911
072 490 4097