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Edwin Shin  
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 More options Mar 22, 6:32 am
From: Edwin Shin <ed...@fedora-commons.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 03:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sat, Mar 22 2008 6:32 am
Subject: Alternatives to the fragment identifier mechanism?
I'm wondering what alternatives to the fragment identifier mechanism
might usefully employed to identify Aggregations.
http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.2/datamodel#Identification_of_an_Ag...
suggests that fragment identifiers are but one mechanism (although
http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.2/overview#Aggregation states that
the Aggregation URI MUST be constructed with a fragment identifier),
unless "dependent on the architecture in which the ORE Data Model is
implemented" means the Web Architecture and so for my purposes, I
needn't concern myself with this further.

FWIW, I'm thinking about this in the context of Fedora digital objects
and distinguishing Fedora digital object-as-Rem vs. Fedora digital
object-as-Aggregation.


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MichaelNelson  
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 More options Mar 23, 11:36 pm
From: MichaelNelson <RhodeWarri...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:36:31 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Mar 23 2008 11:36 pm
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the fragment identifier mechanism?

Edwin,

I believe the Overview and ADM documents got out
of synch.  It was probably supposed to be a
"SHOULD", but I'm not 100% sure since we've waffled
on that internally.

Without revealing details that could change,
we're working on an Alpha 0.3 specification for the
Southampton meeting that changes that nature
of URI-A and URI-R a bit.  One result of these changes
is that the URI fragment identifier trick will become a
"MAY" and not even a "SHOULD".  URI-A and URI-R
will continue to have separate, resolvable identifiers
but we'll present more implementation options.

regards,

Michael


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Graham Triggs  
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 More options Mar 24, 7:47 pm
From: Graham Triggs <grahamtri...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Mar 24 2008 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the fragment identifier mechanism?
Michael,

> Without revealing details that could change,
> we're working on an Alpha 0.3 specification for the
> Southampton meeting that changes that nature
> of URI-A and URI-R a bit.  One result of these changes
> is that the URI fragment identifier trick will become a
> "MAY" and not even a "SHOULD".  URI-A and URI-R
> will continue to have separate, resolvable identifiers
> but we'll present more implementation options.

This is interesting, as I've been thinking that the relationship
between URI-A and URI-R should be strengthened, whereas you are now
saying that it will be weakened.

I'll get ahead of the game here and ask the question that's really
bugging me in all this - ore:isAggregatedBy specifies that you name
the aggregation (URI-A), and not the ReM (URI-R). If there is no link
between the URI-A and URI-R, how do you recover the ReM that describes
the aggregation you are referencing, when you only have a URI-A?

And imho, this should become a bigger issue than it is currently shown
to be in the specifications / examples, because links back to ReMs
from resources should really be assertions of ore:isAggregatedBy (or
is referenced by, etc. depending on the situation) that then name the
aggregation, and not the ReM.

G


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MichaelNelson  
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 More options Mar 24, 11:38 pm
From: MichaelNelson <RhodeWarri...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Mar 24 2008 11:38 pm
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the fragment identifier mechanism?
Graham,

> This is interesting, as I've been thinking that the relationship
> between URI-A and URI-R should be strengthened, whereas you are now
> saying that it will be weakened.

> I'll get ahead of the game here and ask the question that's really
> bugging me in all this - ore:isAggregatedBy specifies that you name
> the aggregation (URI-A), and not the ReM (URI-R). If there is no link
> between the URI-A and URI-R, how do you recover the ReM that describes
> the aggregation you are referencing, when you only have a URI-A?

> And imho, this should become a bigger issue than it is currently shown
> to be in the specifications / examples, because links back to ReMs
> from resources should really be assertions of ore:isAggregatedBy (or
> is referenced by, etc. depending on the situation) that then name the
> aggregation, and not the ReM.

If I read this correctly then I think you'll like the changes.  Again,
I don't want to get ahead of myself in case things change, but
we're currently leaning toward:

* The role of URI-A will increase.  It will be the "main"
thing you link to.  You're correct in that now, the roles of
URI-A and URI-R are split, with some relations using URI-A
and other relations using URI-R.

* URI-A and URI-R will both resolvable, and both
will be discoverable from the other.

* The frag id trick will be just 1 way to differentiate (as
opposed to now where it is presented as the only
way).  The recommended (but not required) approach
will be to use "cool URIs", either via content negotiation,
303 redirection, or other http tricks (the data model
will remain agnostic).

* We have another document in the works that
will cover recommended practices regarding
http implementation as well as multiple
serializations (e.g., Atom, RDF, & RDFa).

We're shooting to have a set of 0.3 docs
ready before the Southampton meeting.
I'd like to give more details, but I think we
also want to present something more fully
cooked than what I can do here.

regards,

Michael


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Graham Triggs  
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 More options Mar 25, 7:46 am
From: Graham Triggs <grahamtri...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, Mar 25 2008 7:46 am
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the fragment identifier mechanism?
Michael,

> * The role of URI-A will increase.  It will be the "main"
> thing you link to.  You're correct in that now, the roles of
> URI-A and URI-R are split, with some relations using URI-A
> and other relations using URI-R.

OK, I think that sounds like a positive move. As much as is possible,
things should be talking about aggregations rather than ReMs - so, for
example, the <link> from an AR to where it is aggregated should be of
the form ore:isAggregatedBy URI-A, and not just a pointer to the ReM.

> * URI-A and URI-R will both resolvable, and both
> will be discoverable from the other.

:staying positive: OK, that sounds good - there are certain things
that should be prescribed about URI-As and URI-Rs:

1) Any URI-A that includes a frag id, then the URI without the frag id
*must* be the URI-R (by extension, the URI-R must be resolvable).

2) The frag id should be allowed to be anything, not only #aggregation
(we are just talking about identified nodes in the ReM - as the ReM
must have an ore:describes, it can state what the indentifier is,
there is no need to enforce that it is a specific value).

3) For URI-As that do not include a frag id, they must be resolvable.
Additionally, they should (in an RFC sense) have an ore:isDescribedBy
link to URI-R. It should also be highly recommended that the
ore:isDescribedBy is contained in a Link: header, which is returned
via a HEAD call.

> * The frag id trick will be just 1 way to differentiate (as
> opposed to now where it is presented as the only
> way).  The recommended (but not required) approach
> will be to use "cool URIs", either via content negotiation,
> 303 redirection, or other http tricks (the data model
> will remain agnostic).

This is where I start to get argumentative. I *like* the frag id
trick. It means that every URI-A that utilises it can be transformed
into the appropriate URI-R to retrieve the describing ReM without
making an additional request. That makes a significant performance
difference on traversing ReMs/ aggregations, and of course significant
scalability gains.

Furthermore, once you have a ReM serialization, then you [SHOULD] have
an identified node for the aggregation - so the frag id 'trick' always
comes for free with every ReM. Even if you assign a specific URI-A,
you will always have the URI-R#fragment URI-As that are
ore:analogousTo (or owl:sameAs) it.

The advantage of the distinct URI-A is that it separates it from the
URI-R of a particular ReM serialization, and in theory allows you to
more freely change the ReM serialization (so you can move from Atom to
RDF as your needs change, or offer both to satisfy the widest range of
clients). That sounds like it's attempting to sidestep an issue that
is going to occur anyway - once the URI-R is 'out there', it needs to
be supportable, even in the event that the serialization needs to
change.

In other words, there needs to be a fundamental acknowledgement that
the URI-R / ReM can assert that it has been dcterms:replacedBy - or
simply that it is ore:analogousTo - another serialization (and in the
analogous case, to identify that there is a preferred serialization
that clients should use if possible). It needs to formally be part of
the specification how clients are expected to handle the presence of
multiple serializations, and what to do in the case that any are
deprecated (and indeed what publishers should be doing in those
circumstances for the clients to behave properly).

And once you deal with the multiple serialization / deprecation issue,
the advantages of URI-As being entirely separate from URI-Rs becomes
rather negligible, and when weighing up URI minting, and performance/
scalability concerns, most people would (imho) be well advised to
simply use the frag id trick.

G


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