1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
one of our pythons has a tongue.
2) Could the society spend some of its money to get someone to design
the nzpug.org website? There is likely to be a web shop who will do
this for under rates. Alternatively, perhaps we could launch a
competition? We probably don't need an implementation. Attractive
wireframes should be sufficient.
On Sep 4, 2012 6:33 PM, "Tim McNamara" <mcnamara....@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
> one of our pythons has a tongue.
Of course you mean "a beak", right?
I like the kiwi pycon logo as well, but it is rather specific to dunedin.
The nzpug logo is a subtle subversion of the python logo which appeals to
me ;-)
>> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
>> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
>> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
>> one of our pythons has a tongue.
> Of course you mean "a beak", right?
This finally makes sense. Enlightenment.
> I like the kiwi pycon logo as well, but it is rather specific to dunedin.
> The nzpug logo is a subtle subversion of the python logo which appeals to me
I'm certainly not going to spend too much energy arguing for a change,
but did want to prompt a discussion. IMO the NZPUG logo looks quite
amateurish. I don't know the history, but expect that it was created
because the society "needed a logo". This year's Kiwi Pycon logo is
powerful, distinctive and pays homage to its origins.
> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
> one of our pythons has a tongue.
I like the current logo but ...
... totally agree about the website. Well worth paying something for a website which is appealing and showcases Python as a great web development language.
> 2) Could the society spend some of its money to get someone to design
> the nzpug.org website? There is likely to be a web shop who will do
> this for under rates. Alternatively, perhaps we could launch a
> competition? We probably don't need an implementation. Attractive
> wireframes should be sufficient.
On 4 September 2012 19:51, Tim McNamara <mcnamara....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm certainly not going to spend too much energy arguing for a change,
> but did want to prompt a discussion. IMO the NZPUG logo looks quite
> amateurish. I don't know the history, but expect that it was created
> because the society "needed a logo".
Actually, there was quite a bit of effort put into the current logo
(i.e. http://nz.pycon.org/img/nzpug_120.png). If you search for the
terms: 'nzpug logo vote python logos' you'll find some of the process
& discussion (although the image links don't seem to have survived
often):
I'm a little confused if so, as it seems neither "rather specific to
dunedin" (as per Thomi) nor (IMO) distinctive.
FWIW I like the the current logo but admit the beak-ness is lost at
small sizes--which was also a concern mentioned in the original
discussions. Given the logo is also otherwise almost a direct copy of
the Python logo itself I'm curious if you think that also looks
"amateurish".
Yes, this email is mostly bikeshedding aside from linking to history. :)
> On 4 September 2012 19:51, Tim McNamara <mcnamara....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm certainly not going to spend too much energy arguing for a change,
>> but did want to prompt a discussion. IMO the NZPUG logo looks quite
>> amateurish. I don't know the history, but expect that it was created
>> because the society "needed a logo".
> Actually, there was quite a bit of effort put into the current logo
> (i.e. http://nz.pycon.org/img/nzpug_120.png). If you search for the
> terms: 'nzpug logo vote python logos' you'll find some of the process
> & discussion (although the image links don't seem to have survived
> often):
>> This year's Kiwi Pycon logo is
>> powerful, distinctive and pays homage to its origins.
> Is this the logo to which you are referring (via http://nz.pycon.org/):a
> I'm a little confused if so, as it seems neither "rather specific to
> dunedin" (as per Thomi) nor (IMO) distinctive.
> FWIW I like the the current logo but admit the beak-ness is lost at
> small sizes--which was also a concern mentioned in the original
> discussions. Given the logo is also otherwise almost a direct copy of
> the Python logo itself I'm curious if you think that also looks
> "amateurish".
Until yesterday, I didn't realise that people actually enjoyed looking
at Python's logo. I've always felt that it's lacks the light of Ruby's
or the fun of Go's. But, at least it's not Java's.
Ignoring this, ours is not a near copy of the original. The PSF logo
has several subtle gradients, which add depth and tone. Ours uses flat
colours. The line between the two snakes in our logo is much stronger
than the original PSF logo, making it a dividing line rather than a
connection point. Now know that this is a beak, rather than a tongue,
it feels like more of a kludge. Pythons don't have beaks. At large
sizes, say http://nzpug.org/Logo?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=NZPUG_logo.png,
it does look quite neat, but I often miss it at small sizes. When I
first noticed the beak, I assumed it was an error. A strong design
element (the strongest?) of the original logo is symmetry, which ours
breaks. We do retain the reference back to yin/yang, as we've retained
strong eyes.
I mean distinctiveness in that it is able to be distinguished from
other trade marks. It is unambiguously different from other marks I've
seen in the marketplace.
On 5 September 2012 00:50, follower <follo...@rancidbacon.com> wrote:
> I'm a little confused if so, as it seems neither "rather specific to
> dunedin" (as per Thomi) nor (IMO) distinctive.
It's octagon shaped (a reference to the center of Dunedin), and has a
certain homage to Celtic knots, in reference to Dunedin's Celtic past.
Then again, I guess if you don't live in Dunedin you may not pick up
on that.
BTW, the logo design and shirt-design were created by Ben Humphries
and Dave Strydom (http://www.linkedin.com/in/davestrydom) - these
gentlemen are superb local talent, and volunteered their time for
NZPug.
1) We need a new (and stylish) website to promote Python in New Zealand. 100% agree. And the money NZPUG would spend on this would be well spent and appropriate.
2) The logo needs to be finalised so it can be included in the website.
This logo issue is the trickiest even though it is in some ways the most trivial (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality). There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest one way or the other but here are some thoughts:
a) we should stick with the basic idea of the existing logo with the kiwi-beaking of the existing logo.
b) the logo should have subtle gradients like the original Python logo it derives from (including the shadow beneath)
c) we should use the attractive font that is used for the word "python" on the official site - http://www.python.org/ (contrast with http://nzpug.org/)
d) we should not be using that blue and that brown together - using an ugly colour combinations in the logo will steer the overall website onto the rocks style-wise. BTW one of the very cool things about this year's conference t-shirts was the coherence of the colours. It "worked". This is one of those things where we need the input of design-oriented people rather than technical people.
I think we should let this discussion run for a couple of days more and then take it to the NZPUG Committee for action.
> On 5 September 2012 00:50, follower <follo...@rancidbacon.com> wrote:
>> On 4 September 2012 19:51, Tim McNamara <mcnamara....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm certainly not going to spend too much energy arguing for a change,
>>> but did want to prompt a discussion. IMO the NZPUG logo looks quite
>>> amateurish. I don't know the history, but expect that it was created
>>> because the society "needed a logo".
>> Actually, there was quite a bit of effort put into the current logo
>> (i.e. http://nz.pycon.org/img/nzpug_120.png). If you search for the
>> terms: 'nzpug logo vote python logos' you'll find some of the process
>> & discussion (although the image links don't seem to have survived
>> often):
>>> This year's Kiwi Pycon logo is
>>> powerful, distinctive and pays homage to its origins.
>> Is this the logo to which you are referring (via http://nz.pycon.org/):a
>> I'm a little confused if so, as it seems neither "rather specific to
>> dunedin" (as per Thomi) nor (IMO) distinctive.
>> FWIW I like the the current logo but admit the beak-ness is lost at
>> small sizes--which was also a concern mentioned in the original
>> discussions. Given the logo is also otherwise almost a direct copy of
>> the Python logo itself I'm curious if you think that also looks
>> "amateurish".
> Until yesterday, I didn't realise that people actually enjoyed looking
> at Python's logo. I've always felt that it's lacks the light of Ruby's
> or the fun of Go's. But, at least it's not Java's.
> Ignoring this, ours is not a near copy of the original. The PSF logo
> has several subtle gradients, which add depth and tone. Ours uses flat
> colours. The line between the two snakes in our logo is much stronger
> than the original PSF logo, making it a dividing line rather than a
> connection point. Now know that this is a beak, rather than a tongue,
> it feels like more of a kludge. Pythons don't have beaks. At large
> sizes, say http://nzpug.org/Logo?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=NZPUG_logo.png,
> it does look quite neat, but I often miss it at small sizes. When I
> first noticed the beak, I assumed it was an error. A strong design
> element (the strongest?) of the original logo is symmetry, which ours
> breaks. We do retain the reference back to yin/yang, as we've retained
> strong eyes.
> I mean distinctiveness in that it is able to be distinguished from
> other trade marks. It is unambiguously different from other marks I've
> seen in the marketplace.
> On 04/09/12 18:33, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
>> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
>> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
>> one of our pythons has a tongue.
> I like the current logo but ...
To add my voice here too, I really like the current NZPUG logo.
I like the beak on the kiwi, on the underside. Shows NZ connection, and
down-under styling. There is also a colour difference.
When compared to the AU one, which just uses ozzie green and gold, I think
the subtle beak addition is nifty.
> ... totally agree about the website. Well worth paying something for a > website which is appealing and showcases Python as a great web > development language.
I agree that the website needs some design love.
I also know how hard good design is, and that it is currently put together
by developers in their spare time.
My suggestion on http://nzpug.org/KiwiPyCon/2009Planning/LogoStorm was to just be a bit cheeky and replace one of the pythons with a kiwi, which Jason cleverly morphed into a fun poke at the Python logo and made it upside-down - "down under" - compared to the otherwise Northern Hemisphere dominant Python community. Perhaps it could just use some stronger colours or styling?
On Wed 05 Sep 2012 09:51:36 NZST, Tim Penhey wrote:
>> On 04/09/12 18:33, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
>>> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
>>> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
>>> one of our pythons has a tongue.
>> I like the current logo but ...
> To add my voice here too, I really like the current NZPUG logo.
> I like the beak on the kiwi, on the underside. Shows NZ connection, and
> down-under styling. There is also a colour difference.
> When compared to the AU one, which just uses ozzie green and gold, I
> think
> the subtle beak addition is nifty.
>> ... totally agree about the website. Well worth paying something for
>> a website which is appealing and showcases Python as a great web
>> development language.
> I agree that the website needs some design love.
> I also know how hard good design is, and that it is currently put
> together
> by developers in their spare time.
That might be a good solution - handing over the logo concept to a designer and asking them to make something nice out of it (in particular, no ugly colour combinations ;-)). Do it from the same budget as the website design job, assuming we go ahead with that.
> My suggestion on http://nzpug.org/KiwiPyCon/2009Planning/LogoStorm was
> to just be a bit cheeky and replace one of the pythons with a kiwi,
> which Jason cleverly morphed into a fun poke at the Python logo and
> made it upside-down - "down under" - compared to the otherwise Northern
> Hemisphere dominant Python community. Perhaps it could just use some
> stronger colours or styling?
> On Wed 05 Sep 2012 09:51:36 NZST, Tim Penhey wrote:
>> On 04/09/12 20:00, Grant Paton-Simpson wrote:
>>> On 04/09/12 18:33, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
>>>> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
>>>> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
>>>> one of our pythons has a tongue.
>>> I like the current logo but ...
>> To add my voice here too, I really like the current NZPUG logo.
>> I like the beak on the kiwi, on the underside. Shows NZ connection, and
>> down-under styling. There is also a colour difference.
>> When compared to the AU one, which just uses ozzie green and gold, I
>> think
>> the subtle beak addition is nifty.
>>> ... totally agree about the website. Well worth paying something for
>>> a website which is appealing and showcases Python as a great web
>>> development language.
>> I agree that the website needs some design love.
>> I also know how hard good design is, and that it is currently put
>> together
>> by developers in their spare time.
On 5/09/2012, at 4:04 PM, Grant Paton-Simpson wrote:
> That might be a good solution - handing over the logo concept to a designer and asking them to make something nice out of it (in particular, no ugly colour combinations ;-)). Do it from the same budget as the website design job, assuming we go ahead with that.
> On 05/09/12 15:24, Jonathan Harker wrote:
>> My suggestion on http://nzpug.org/KiwiPyCon/2009Planning/LogoStorm was
>> to just be a bit cheeky and replace one of the pythons with a kiwi,
>> which Jason cleverly morphed into a fun poke at the Python logo and
>> made it upside-down - "down under" - compared to the otherwise Northern
>> Hemisphere dominant Python community. Perhaps it could just use some
>> stronger colours or styling?
>> On Wed 05 Sep 2012 09:51:36 NZST, Tim Penhey wrote:
>>> On 04/09/12 20:00, Grant Paton-Simpson wrote:
>>>> On 04/09/12 18:33, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
>>>>> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
>>>>> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
>>>>> one of our pythons has a tongue.
>>>> I like the current logo but ...
>>> To add my voice here too, I really like the current NZPUG logo.
>>> I like the beak on the kiwi, on the underside. Shows NZ connection, and
>>> down-under styling. There is also a colour difference.
>>> When compared to the AU one, which just uses ozzie green and gold, I
>>> think
>>> the subtle beak addition is nifty.
>>>> ... totally agree about the website. Well worth paying something for
>>>> a website which is appealing and showcases Python as a great web
>>>> development language.
>>> I agree that the website needs some design love.
>>> I also know how hard good design is, and that it is currently put
>>> together
>>> by developers in their spare time.
>>> Tim
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I recently used http://99designs.com to get a logo for a project - it worked well we got 150 submissions and then everyone involved voted for the logo we liked best. Something like that could work well …
On Sep 5, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Grant Paton-Simpson <gr...@p-s.co.nz> wrote:
> That might be a good solution - handing over the logo concept to a designer and asking them to make something nice out of it (in particular, no ugly colour combinations ;-)). Do it from the same budget as the website design job, assuming we go ahead with that.
> On 05/09/12 15:24, Jonathan Harker wrote:
>> My suggestion on http://nzpug.org/KiwiPyCon/2009Planning/LogoStorm was
>> to just be a bit cheeky and replace one of the pythons with a kiwi,
>> which Jason cleverly morphed into a fun poke at the Python logo and
>> made it upside-down - "down under" - compared to the otherwise Northern
>> Hemisphere dominant Python community. Perhaps it could just use some
>> stronger colours or styling?
>> On Wed 05 Sep 2012 09:51:36 NZST, Tim Penhey wrote:
>>> On 04/09/12 20:00, Grant Paton-Simpson wrote:
>>>> On 04/09/12 18:33, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
>>>>> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
>>>>> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
>>>>> one of our pythons has a tongue.
>>>> I like the current logo but ...
>>> To add my voice here too, I really like the current NZPUG logo.
>>> I like the beak on the kiwi, on the underside. Shows NZ connection, and
>>> down-under styling. There is also a colour difference.
>>> When compared to the AU one, which just uses ozzie green and gold, I
>>> think
>>> the subtle beak addition is nifty.
>>>> ... totally agree about the website. Well worth paying something for
>>>> a website which is appealing and showcases Python as a great web
>>>> development language.
>>> I agree that the website needs some design love.
>>> I also know how hard good design is, and that it is currently put
>>> together
>>> by developers in their spare time.
>>> Tim
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "New Zealand Python User Group" group.
> To post to this group, send email to nzpug@googlegroups.com.
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I'll raise both the "Kiwi PyCon vs. NZPUG logo" issue and that of
"nzpug.org webdesign" at the next committee meeting, which is this
coming Monday 10 Sep.
Regarding the logo, thank you Philipp and Jonathan for providing Tim
with some background information on its history.
At the time we did need a logo, but not just any, and the approach
taken by the current logo was well received.
I personally also like the current NZPUG logo. Btw we checked with the
PSF so as to not get into trouble - the Kiwi beak is indeed a
relatively subtle change to the original.
Letting a designer add some depth via gradients is probably a good
idea, but such a minor "facelift" is a very different ball game to the
re-branding exercise you were suggesting.
Have a look at the upcoming member badge - I try to have it ready for
everyone in the next couple of days. Our designer did make some
adjustments to the colours, you might find that more pleasing (and
worthy of putting on your website :-)).
Regarding the nzpug.org website, the issue is actually bigger than
just webdesign, and the committee is aware that the current state is
temporary. Again there's some history to it, and this moinmoin wiki
was used for basically everything, including the organisation and
documentation of meetups, planning of Kiwi PyCon's etc. - a relatively
recent change to the front page was made to clarify what the various
technical components are that NZPUG utilises, and to present them all
on one page (see also my talk at Kiwi PyCon 2011).
We've been discussing a complete merge of nzpug.org and nz.pycon.org
for a while now (the details of which would get a bit long for this
email).
As an example, NZPUG membership and corresponding payment are too much
of a manual process at the moment, and there would be a number of
benefits of having a single "account" that brings the various services
together in a personalised fashion.
Kiwi PyCon leftover money was used to improve the look of nz.pycon.org
in 2010. Then 2011 saw the Wellington crew introduce a "local logo"
which I think was the "W" taken from the t-shirt design. 2012 saw the
site strongly simplified (with the side effect of orphaning the pages
of previous years...) and also another "local logo" created by the
conference committee.
In the light of the planned site merge, I will actually suggest sort
of the opposite: Scrap local logos altogether, in favour of a stronger
branding. We're already in a niche.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Tim McNamara <mcnamara....@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) This year's Kiwi Pycon logo looks really amazing. Would it be
> possible to replace the current NZPUG logo with that? It's far more
> distinctive. It actually took me several months before I realised that
> one of our pythons has a tongue.
> 2) Could the society spend some of its money to get someone to design
> the nzpug.org website? There is likely to be a web shop who will do
> this for under rates. Alternatively, perhaps we could launch a
> competition? We probably don't need an implementation. Attractive
> wireframes should be sufficient.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "New Zealand Python User Group" group.
> To post to this group, send email to nzpug@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nzpug+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nzpug?hl=en.
-- Kind regards,
Danny W. Adair
Director
Unfold Limited
New Zealand
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."
==============================
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On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Thomi Richards <tho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>[...]
> I like the kiwi pycon logo as well, but it is rather specific to dunedin.
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Tim McNamara <mcnamara....@gmail.com> wrote:
>[...]
> Until yesterday, I didn't realise that people actually enjoyed looking
> at Python's logo. I've always felt that it's lacks the light of Ruby's
> or the fun of Go's. But, at least it's not Java's.
>[...]
> I mean distinctiveness in that it is able to be distinguished from
> other trade marks. It is unambiguously different from other marks I've
> seen in the marketplace.
"Python in New Zealand", or "the Kiwi branch of Python" - nothing more
needed to be conveyed.
Rather than distinctiveness, it's brand _recognition_ which the
current design holds, I wouldn't underestimate the value of that.
If you do decide to merge the two websites, I'd be happy to do the development (front end and back end) for 15$ an hour (not my usual rate ;p )
I'd develop with webapp2, jinja2 and javascript on google app engine (which would hopefully result in free hosting if the free quota is not exhausted each month, Also the app engine admin interface allows you to assign multiple developers access easily) Code can be open sourced on bitbucket.
Would you be looking to preserve the structure of current user accounts and associated data + wiki ?
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Robert King <kingrobertk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you do decide to merge the two websites, I'd be happy to do the
> development (front end and back end) for 15$ an hour (not my usual rate ;p )
> I'd develop with webapp2, jinja2 and javascript on google app engine (which
> would hopefully result in free hosting if the free quota is not exhausted
> each month, Also the app engine admin interface allows you to assign
> multiple developers access easily)
> Code can be open sourced on bitbucket.
> Would you be looking to preserve the structure of current user accounts and
> associated data + wiki ?
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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-- Kind regards,
Danny W. Adair
Director
Unfold Limited
New Zealand
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."
==============================
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