Twin options bullshit
Tigger
a kids holiday programme. It is Bible based.
Apart from the blatant brainwashing sections of it, one of the most
shocking things I read was the advice that churchgoers should be
teaching their children there are two ways to live:
Believe in God and trust Him with all your heart and your life; or
Reject God.
I asked my friend if she believed or taught that. She said she didn't
teach it, but was a little confused until I reminded her of the third
way to live. Simply, not believing in God to reject him!
It was so sad to see the kind of stuff being produced to indoctrinate
little children. I firmly believe that children should be exposed to
many religious beliefs, told which one their parents believe, and
allowed to make their own decision when old enough.
--
Reverend Tigger =^..^=
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/8426/atheism/
NEW! What Evidence Is There For God?
The nz.soc.religion 'About us' list:
http://www.freethought.org.nz/usenet/nz.soc.religion/regulars
"And Lucifer looked down upon the world and beheld the
destruction God had wrought, and he wept."
Remove .its.a.car to reply
matt
>
> I was reading through a book my Christian friend was using recently for
> a kids holiday programme. It is Bible based.
>
> Apart from the blatant brainwashing sections of it, one of the most
> shocking things I read was the advice that churchgoers should be
> teaching their children there are two ways to live:
>
> Believe in God and trust Him with all your heart and your life; or
>
> Reject God.
>
> I asked my friend if she believed or taught that. She said she didn't
> teach it, but was a little confused until I reminded her of the third
> way to live. Simply, not believing in God to reject him!
>
> It was so sad to see the kind of stuff being produced to indoctrinate
> little children. I firmly believe that children should be exposed to
> many religious beliefs, told which one their parents believe, and
> allowed to make their own decision when old enough.
>
> --
> Reverend Tigger =^..^
I often check out the christian channel on tv (cant remember its name)
for a giggle (man does it make me laugh sometimes :p) umm on it there is
a kids show. It is hosted by Miss Barbie Doll (hehe not her real name
but you know the type). It was blatant brain washing. It was pretty sad
to watch. ie stuff like 'love jesus or suffer eternally' all that sort
of believe or perish kind of stuff. Miss Doll even said at one point
'those who dont love jesus are different from you, they can never
understand nor be saved' etc etc.
dogma and children are not a good mix.
matt
Tigger
>
> I often check out the christian channel on tv (cant remember its name)
> for a giggle (man does it make me laugh sometimes :p) umm on it there is
> a kids show. It is hosted by Miss Barbie Doll (hehe not her real name
> but you know the type). It was blatant brain washing. It was pretty sad
> to watch.
Yes I've seen that. Sat through one episode where the Bible story was of
the disciples and when Jesus walked on water. Typical brainwashing
praise of Jesus by the studio kids every second sentence or so. Also, to
make the story longer, lots of stuff said that isn't in the Bible, just
guessed at.
Brian Tozer
matt wrote in message <36214A...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>...
>> It was so sad to see the kind of stuff being produced to indoctrinate
>> little children. I firmly believe that children should be exposed to
>> many religious beliefs, told which one their parents believe, and
>> allowed to make their own decision when old enough.
>I often check out the christian channel on tv (cant remember its name)
>for a giggle (man does it make me laugh sometimes :p) umm on it there is
>a kids show. It is hosted by Miss Barbie Doll (hehe not her real name
>but you know the type). It was blatant brain washing. It was pretty sad
>to watch. ie stuff like 'love jesus or suffer eternally' all that sort
>of believe or perish kind of stuff. Miss Doll even said at one point
>'those who dont love jesus are different from you, they can never
>understand nor be saved' etc etc.
>dogma and children are not a good mix.
Society has got to take a decent look at the mental abuse that is inflicted
on children in the name of religion.
Politicians would be too timid to touch it.
They wouldn't even tackle a plebiscite on voluntary euthanasia when they
know there is a majority demand for it.
Brian Tozer
Robert Howard
Tigger <d...@mr2.its.a.car.org.nz> wrote in article
<361FF0...@mr2.its.a.car.org.nz>...
> It was so sad to see the kind of stuff being produced to indoctrinate
> little children. I firmly believe that children should be exposed to
> many religious beliefs, told which one their parents believe, and
> allowed to make their own decision when old enough.
I thoroughly agree with you. The problem is the churches consider they are
automatically right. There is no credible alternative point of view and so
they are justified in indoctrinating children. It is no wonder many young
people reject that indoctrination when they are old enough to think for
themselves.
Bob Howard.
Tigger
>
> I thoroughly agree with you. The problem is the churches consider they are
> automatically right. There is no credible alternative point of view and so
> they are justified in indoctrinating children. It is no wonder many young
> people reject that indoctrination when they are old enough to think for
> themselves.
My Christian friend plans to have children eventually. I will naturally
have lots of contact with them. They will be exposed to many beliefs.
--
Reverend Tigger =^..^=
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/8426/atheism/
Moving to: http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/nztigger
Brian Tozer
Tigger wrote in message <36254D...@mr2.its.a.car.org.nz>...
>My Christian friend plans to have children eventually. I will naturally
>have lots of contact with them. They will be exposed to many beliefs.
I predict that she will not allow that to happen.
They must be 'protected' from 'evil'.
Brian Tozer
Tigger
Nah, she's fairly liberal. I actually asked her how she knew her
religion was the right one, she said that maybe God appeared to
different people different ways, and as long as you worshipped some God,
it was probably the same one.
If she doesn't like it, tough. I will not stand for her brainwashing her
children. She will have to end the friendship. And anyone who ended a
friendship because they could not stand for freedom of speech, learning,
and an open mind, wouldn't be someone worth being friends with anyway.
Sounds controversial, but I don't think it'll come to that. She's
reasonably intelligent.
Warrick Taylor
wrote:
>Yes I've seen that. Sat through one episode where the Bible story was of
>the disciples and when Jesus walked on water. Typical brainwashing
>praise of Jesus by the studio kids every second sentence or so. Also, to
>make the story longer, lots of stuff said that isn't in the Bible, just
>guessed at.
Anyone tell me where this christian channel is available? I would love
to comment on this discussion but have not ever seen it.
I live in Taranaki (Hawera)
Warrick Taylor
Tigger
>
> Anyone tell me where this christian channel is available? I would love
> to comment on this discussion but have not ever seen it.
>
> I live in Taranaki (Hawera)
Christchurch, I'm afraid. Maybe Patrick will be able to tell you if they
broadcast anywhere else, but I don't think they do. They're not even
listed in the TV Guide, IIRC, which I wonder at. They've been going a
while. It's all American shows from the Trinity Broadcasting Network.
Maybe you can find something if you do a web search on them to get an
idea of what they broadcast. Patrick's page has the program lineup, but
I don't remember the URL.
Patrick Dunford
16:25:42 +1300 in nz.soc.religion:<36256b29...@news.bitworks.co.nz>
didst write unto us...
>On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:46:45 +1300, Tigger <d...@mr2.its.a.car.org.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>Yes I've seen that. Sat through one episode where the Bible story was of
>>the disciples and when Jesus walked on water. Typical brainwashing
>>praise of Jesus by the studio kids every second sentence or so. Also, to
>>make the story longer, lots of stuff said that isn't in the Bible, just
>>guessed at.
>
>Anyone tell me where this christian channel is available? I would love
>to comment on this discussion but have not ever seen it.
>
>I live in Taranaki (Hawera)
There are only local channels, according to QRA there is now one in
Palmerston North adding to existing ones in Kapiti and Christchurch.
--
Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/
-----------------------------------------------------
On The Move - The Christian Democrats Newsletter
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/otm/
Warrick Taylor
wrote:
>Robert Howard wrote:
>>
>> I thoroughly agree with you. The problem is the churches consider they are
>> automatically right. There is no credible alternative point of view and so
>> they are justified in indoctrinating children. It is no wonder many young
>> people reject that indoctrination when they are old enough to think for
>> themselves.
>
>My Christian friend plans to have children eventually. I will naturally
>have lots of contact with them. They will be exposed to many beliefs.
I have a christian friend who, when he was old enough his Father took
him around many other churches after explaining to him what he
believed. He then left his son to make his own choice. Christianity as
a belief system only has value if you choose to acknowledge God of
your own free will.
Warrick Taylor
The Scourge
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/
>-----------------------------------------------------
>On The Move - The Christian Democrats Newsletter
>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/otm/
What happened to your cave rock account Patsy ???
And Christchurch is one word.
Consider me the bad apple
NATASNATASNATAS
Patrick Dunford
22:54:22 +1300 in nz.soc.religion:<90844716...@newsch.es.co.nz>
didst write unto us...
>
>Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>
>>Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
>>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/
>>-----------------------------------------------------
>>On The Move - The Christian Democrats Newsletter
>>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/otm/
>
>What happened to your cave rock account Patsy ???
It still exists.
>And Christchurch is one word.
>
>Consider me the bad apple
>
>NATASNATASNATAS
Still working for the WEA, Rick (of the same surname as a well-known
businessman)?
--
Paul Wilkins
<snipped all but relevant part of sig>
> Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
Why are you deliberately mirepresenting our city of Christchurch?
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Patrick Dunford
1998 00:41:22 +1200 in
nz.soc.religion:<3625ED70...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
>Patrick Dunford wrote:
><snipped all but relevant part of sig>
>
>> Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
>
>Why are you deliberately mirepresenting our city of Christchurch?
You will perhaps notice that the Cathedral is known as Christ Church
Cathedral. I believe that was the original name of the city. The name is
associated either with Canterbury or Oxford in the UK.
--
Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
Paul Wilkins
> Paul Wilkins wrote:
> >Why are you deliberately mirepresenting our city of Christchurch?
>
> You will perhaps notice that the Cathedral is known as Christ Church
> Cathedral. I believe that was the original name of the city. The name is
> associated either with Canterbury or Oxford in the UK.
So by using Christ Church you indicate that you live inside the Cathedral itself?
Are you using Christ Church, NZ to indicate building, country instead of city, country?
Anyhow - can you show me (or direct me to) where we can see the name Christ
Church take precidence over Christchurch?
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Patrick Dunford
nz.soc.religion:<36261610...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>> Paul Wilkins wrote:
>> >Why are you deliberately mirepresenting our city of Christchurch?
>>
>> You will perhaps notice that the Cathedral is known as Christ Church
>> Cathedral. I believe that was the original name of the city. The name is
>> associated either with Canterbury or Oxford in the UK.
>
>So by using Christ Church you indicate that you live inside the Cathedral itself?
>Are you using Christ Church, NZ to indicate building, country instead of city, country?
No. As I said I believe the original name given to this city was Christ
Church, that was the original form of the name.
Paul Wilkins
> No. As I said I believe the original name given to this city was Christ
> Church, that was the original form of the name.
What makes you believe that?
Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim? Or are you making
unfounded presumptions.
The name that Christchurch used to have is irrelevant anyhow.
To take a parallel case - English is a language that is German with many other
languages mixed in. (ref: thread about landing on the shore, starting up towns
of different languages, gradual intermixing via trade, etc..)
Should we go back to what English was and speak German now? I think not.
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Patrick Dunford
nz.soc.religion:<362642A3...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>> No. As I said I believe the original name given to this city was Christ
>> Church, that was the original form of the name.
>
>What makes you believe that?
>Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim? Or are you making
>unfounded presumptions.
The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
name was to be "Christ Church".
>The name that Christchurch used to have is irrelevant anyhow.
Why?
>To take a parallel case - English is a language that is German with many other
>languages mixed in. (ref: thread about landing on the shore, starting up towns
>of different languages, gradual intermixing via trade, etc..)
>Should we go back to what English was and speak German now? I think not.
Actually your parallel case doesn't make any sense at all. That is to
say, it doesn't make any sort of parallel to this example. You will have
to think up a better example.
Brian Tozer
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>>> No. As I said I believe the original name given to this city was Christ
>>> Church, that was the original form of the name.
>>The name that Christchurch used to have is irrelevant anyhow.
>Why?
>>To take a parallel case - English is a language that is German with many
other
>>languages mixed in. (ref: thread about landing on the shore, starting up
towns
>>of different languages, gradual intermixing via trade, etc..)
>>Should we go back to what English was and speak German now? I think not.
>Actually your parallel case doesn't make any sense at all. That is to
>say, it doesn't make any sort of parallel to this example. You will have
>to think up a better example.
As we know the original Maori names of about 1200 sites, why are you not
going back further in time and using them?
Out of respect you should use either the current name or the original Maori
one.
Brian Tozer
Warrick Taylor
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>There are only local channels, according to QRA there is now one in
>Palmerston North adding to existing ones in Kapiti and Christchurch.
Might try and see it next time I visit old flatties in Palmy then.
Thanks all for the info.
Warrick Taylor
Paul Wilkins
> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
> name was to be "Christ Church".
You prefer to live in the past then.
So be it.
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Patrick Dunford
nz.soc.religion:<3626FD06...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
The Scourge
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>22:54:22 +1300 in nz.soc.religion:<90844716...@newsch.es.co.nz>
>Still working for the WEA, Rick (of the same surname as a well-known
>businessman)?
I thought you said I was Scotty Fergusson ???
And whats the WEA ???
The Scourge
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>1998 20:00:17 +1200 in
>No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
No, you wish to further cushion the christian cotton-wool protection blanket
you have built around yourself.
Christ Church.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.
Patrick Dunford
11:42:24 +1300 in nz.soc.religion:<90858064...@newsch.es.co.nz>
didst write unto us...
>
>Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>>Yea verily The Scourge (thesc...@hotmail.com) on Thu, 15 Oct 1998
>>22:54:22 +1300 in nz.soc.religion:<90844716...@newsch.es.co.nz>
>
>
>>Still working for the WEA, Rick (of the same surname as a well-known
>>businessman)?
>
>
>I thought you said I was Scotty Fergusson ???
Who do _you_ think you are at the moment :) ???
>And whats the WEA ???
>
What's NATAS? I only know one person who uses that word. He wrote a fairy
tale about it, part one of which was published in a certain magazine :)
The Scourge
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>11:42:24 +1300 in
>Who do _you_ think you are at the moment :) ???
I don't think I am anyone. I know.
>>And whats the WEA ???
>>
Well ?!?
>What's NATAS
NATAS is satan backwards
jesus....
<I mean>
susej...
Allistar Melville
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>Yea verily Paul Wilkins (pm...@student.canterbury.ac.nz) on Fri, 16 Oct
>1998 20:00:17 +1200 in
>nz.soc.religion:<3626FD06...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
>unto us...
>
>>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>>> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
>>> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
>>> name was to be "Christ Church".
>>
>>You prefer to live in the past then.
>>So be it.
>
>No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
Do you also wish to emphasise the Christian significance of the
inquisitions?
SQ
The record of Christianity from the days when it first obtained the
power to persecute is one of the most ghastly in history. The total
number of Manichaeans, Arians, Priscillianists, Paulicians, Bogomiles,
Cathari, Waldensians, Albigensians, witches, Lollards, Hussites, Jews
and Protestants killed because of their rebellion against Rome clearly
runs to many millions; and beyond these actual executions or massacres
is the enormously larger number of those who were tortured,
imprisoned, or beggared. In almost every century a large part of the
race has endeavored to reject the Christian religion, and, if in those
centuries there had been the same freedom as we enjoy, Roman
Catholicism would, in spite of the universal ignorance, have shrunk
long ago into a sect.
EQ
Allistar.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Allistar Melville (BSc) Home: alli...@ihug.co.nz \_
Software Developer Work: alli...@focussoft.co.nz </'
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND /)
Web: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~allistar/ (/`
`
"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." David Hume
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim McVeagh
Melville) wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:37:13 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>Yea verily Paul Wilkins (pm...@student.canterbury.ac.nz) on Fri, 16 Oct
>>1998 20:00:17 +1200 in
>>nz.soc.religion:<3626FD06...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
>>unto us...
>>
>>>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>>>> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
>>>> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
>>>> name was to be "Christ Church".
>>>
>>>You prefer to live in the past then.
>>>So be it.
>>
>>No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
>
>Do you also wish to emphasise the Christian significance of the
>inquisitions?
>
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Sorry, too much Monty Python.....:-)
Jim McVeagh (jmcveagh at ihug dot co dot nz)
Invercargill, New Zealand
"Sleep & eat, eat & sleep - there must be
more to life than this.... but I hope not"
Patrick Dunford
02:44:49 GMT in nz.soc.religion:<362955d8...@news.iconz.co.nz> didst
write unto us...
>On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:37:13 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>Yea verily Paul Wilkins (pm...@student.canterbury.ac.nz) on Fri, 16 Oct
>>1998 20:00:17 +1200 in
>>nz.soc.religion:<3626FD06...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
>>unto us...
>>
>>>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>>>> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
>>>> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
>>>> name was to be "Christ Church".
>>>
>>>You prefer to live in the past then.
>>>So be it.
>>
>>No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
>
>Do you also wish to emphasise the Christian significance of the
>inquisitions?
That's irrelevant, and a trite sneer.
Allistar Melville
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>Yea verily Allistar Melville (alli...@ihug.co.nz) on Sun, 18 Oct 1998
>02:44:49 GMT in nz.soc.religion:<362955d8...@news.iconz.co.nz> didst
>write unto us...
>
>>On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:37:13 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>
>>>Yea verily Paul Wilkins (pm...@student.canterbury.ac.nz) on Fri, 16 Oct
>>>1998 20:00:17 +1200 in
>>>nz.soc.religion:<3626FD06...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
>>>unto us...
>>>
>>>>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>>>>> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
>>>>> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
>>>>> name was to be "Christ Church".
>>>>
>>>>You prefer to live in the past then.
>>>>So be it.
>>>
>>>No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
>>
>>Do you also wish to emphasise the Christian significance of the
>>inquisitions?
>
>That's irrelevant, and a trite sneer.
Sorry if it seemed a bit rude, but I think it is relevant.
You seem to be proud of Christianity, as shown by the way you
emphasise the Christian significance in Christchurch. I have no
problem with that.
I don't think it is fair that the millions of people that have been
murdered, tortured or treated unfairly because of your religion should
be forgotton.
Peiople need to be aware of the bad bits of all religions if they are
to make a decision about which particular superstition(s) they will
live by.
Julian S Visch
|> >> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
|> >> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
|> >> name was to be "Christ Church".
|> >
|> >You prefer to live in the past then.
|> >So be it.
|>
|> No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
We are named after the city in Britain, not after the christian church.
But maybe we should have a name change to reflect our changing city.
Brian Tozer
Julian S Visch wrote in message <70eccq$bh9$1...@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>...
patrick...@hotmail.com (Patrick Dunford) writes:
>|> No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
>We are named after the city in Britain, not after the christian church.
>But maybe we should have a name change to reflect our changing city.
Skinhead City?
Motto:- Bash a black today?
Brian Tozer
Julian S Visch
Actually I would prefer to go back to the Maori name.
Allistar Melville
<bria...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>Julian S Visch wrote in message <70eccq$bh9$1...@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>...
>patrick...@hotmail.com (Patrick Dunford) writes:
>
>
>>|> No, I wish to emphasise the Christian significance of this city's name.
>
>>We are named after the city in Britain, not after the christian church.
>>But maybe we should have a name change to reflect our changing city.
>
>Skinhead City?
>Motto:- Bash a black today?
>
>Brian Tozer
Not surprising at the "moral decay" in a city with the word "Christ"
in its name considering the lessons taught by that man:
(Luke 14:26). "I am come to set man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against
her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own
household"
(Matt. 10:35-36) "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and
mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and
his own life also, he cannot be my
disciple"
Doesn't sound like family values to me.
He even ordered the beating of slaves:
(Luke 12:47) "And that servantt(read: slave), which knew his lord's
will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will
shall be beaten with many stripes".
And there's even more:
SQ
If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off
(Matt. 5:29-30, in a sexual context). Marrying a divorced woman is
adultery (Matt. 5:32). Don't plan for the future (Matt. 6:34), don't
save money (Matt. 6:19-20), or become wealthy (Mark 10:21-25). Sell
everything you have and give it to the poor (Luke 12:33). Don't work
to obtain food (John 6:27). Don't have sexual urges (Matt. 5:28). Make
people want to persecute you (Matt. 5:11). Let everyone know you are
better than the rest (Matt. 5:13-16). Take money from those who have
no savings and give it to rich investors (Luke 19:23-26). If someone
steals from you, don't try to get it back (Luke 6:30). If someone hits
you, invite them to do it again (Matt. 5:39). If you lose a lawsuit,
give more than the judgment (Matt. 5:40). If someone forces you to
walk a mile, walk two miles (Matt. 5:41). If someone asks you for
anything, give it to them without question (Matt. 5:42).
Is any of this wise? Is this what you would teach your children?
EQ
I don't think so....
The sooner we rid the world of these superstitions the better.
Jim McVeagh
Melville) wrote:
>I don't think it is fair that the millions of people that have been
>murdered, tortured or treated unfairly because of your religion should
>be forgotton.
This has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in general. All
this demonstrates is that humans can be really nasty little buggers.
Any excuse to kill and maim...
>Peiople need to be aware of the bad bits of all religions if they are
>to make a decision about which particular superstition(s) they will
>live by.
Wow. Thank you for sharing your presuppositions.
Jim McVeagh
A little selective in our quotes aren't we?
Allistar Melville
In that my goal is to show that the Bible is by far a "good book",
yes.
Allistar Melville
McVeagh) wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:10:19 GMT, alli...@ihug.co.nz (Allistar
>Melville) wrote:
>
>
>>I don't think it is fair that the millions of people that have been
>>murdered, tortured or treated unfairly because of your religion should
>>be forgotton.
>
>This has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in general. All
>this demonstrates is that humans can be really nasty little buggers.
>Any excuse to kill and maim...
The inquisitions have everything to do with Christianity.
Sure humans can be nasty little buggers, all I'm saying is their
reasons for being nasty seem to come from their superstitions.
>>Peiople need to be aware of the bad bits of all religions if they are
>>to make a decision about which particular superstition(s) they will
>>live by.
>
>Wow. Thank you for sharing your presuppositions.
You're welcome.
Jim McVeagh
Melville) wrote:
>>This has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in general. All
>>this demonstrates is that humans can be really nasty little buggers.
>>Any excuse to kill and maim...
>
>The inquisitions have everything to do with Christianity.
>
>Sure humans can be nasty little buggers, all I'm saying is their
>reasons for being nasty seem to come from their superstitions.
You mean all the people who are NOT superstitious are nice?
I don't think so...
Allistar Melville
McVeagh) wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:10:09 GMT, alli...@ihug.co.nz (Allistar
>Melville) wrote:
>
>>>This has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in general. All
>>>this demonstrates is that humans can be really nasty little buggers.
>>>Any excuse to kill and maim...
>>
>>The inquisitions have everything to do with Christianity.
>>
>>Sure humans can be nasty little buggers, all I'm saying is their
>>reasons for being nasty seem to come from their superstitions.
>
>You mean all the people who are NOT superstitious are nice?
>
>I don't think so...
No, not at all. All I am saying is some of the reasons for people
being nasty comes from their superstitions. i.e. get rid of
superstitions, and get rid of some of the nastiness.
Paul Wilkins
> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
> name was to be "Christ Church".
If I may quote that piece for you (bottom left half).
IN 1848 THE CANTERBURY ASSOCIATION
was formed. Dr J.B.SUMNER
ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY being
President and LORD.LYTTELTON
Chairman.
Of the 52 original Members 17
had been ad Godley's old College
CHRIST CHIRCH OXFORD
On the 27th March 1848 the
Canterbury Association resolved
that
"THE NAME OF THE PROPOSED
SETTLEMENT BE CANTERBURY
AND THE NAME OF THE CHIEF TOWN
CHRISTCHURCH"
So you will see, Mr Dunford, that the Christ Church that you insist is the
original name of Christchurch, is referring instead to the old boys school in Oxford.
Ever since the town sitting north of the port hills was first named, it was
named, and has always been named, Christchurch.
Go look at it. It's written in stone.
Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Paul Wilkins
Paul Wilkins wrote:
>
> Patrick Dunford wrote:
> > The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
> > discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
> > name was to be "Christ Church".
>
> If I may quote that piece for you (bottom left half).
>
> IN 1848 THE CANTERBURY ASSOCIATION
> was formed. Dr J.B.SUMNER
> ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY being
> Chairman.
> Of the 52 original Members 17
> CHRIST CHURCH OXFORD
Tigger
> >
> > Ever since the town sitting north of the port hills was first named, it was
> > named, and has always been named, Christchurch.
> > Go look at it. It's written in stone.
> > Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
And you still say you're not a liar Patrick? Are we going to see a
complete reversal of past trends and a post from you saying "I'm sorry,
I got it wrong"? Anyone taking bets?
--
Reverend Tigger =^..^=
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/8426/atheism/
Moving to: http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/nztigger
The nz.soc.religion 'About us' list:
http://www.freethought.org.nz/usenet/nz.soc.religion/regulars
"And Lucifer looked down upon the world and beheld the
destruction God had wrought, and he wept."
Remove .its.a.car to reply
Brian Tozer
Tigger wrote in message <362D09...@mr2.its.a.car.org.nz>...
>Paul Wilkins wrote:
>> > Ever since the town sitting north of the port hills was first named, it
was
>> > named, and has always been named, Christchurch.
>> > Go look at it. It's written in stone.
>> > Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
>And you still say you're not a liar Patrick? Are we going to see a
>complete reversal of past trends and a post from you saying "I'm sorry,
>I got it wrong"? Anyone taking bets?
I have detected subliminal encouraging signs of progress in the subject.
I predict that he will apologise for the error.
Brian Tozer
Jim McVeagh
Melville) wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:47:21 GMT, SpamSp...@Luvverly.Spam (Jim
>McVeagh) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:10:09 GMT, alli...@ihug.co.nz (Allistar
>>Melville) wrote:
>>
>>>>This has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in general. All
>>>>this demonstrates is that humans can be really nasty little buggers.
>>>>Any excuse to kill and maim...
>>>
>>>The inquisitions have everything to do with Christianity.
>>>
>>>Sure humans can be nasty little buggers, all I'm saying is their
>>>reasons for being nasty seem to come from their superstitions.
>>
>>You mean all the people who are NOT superstitious are nice?
>>
>>I don't think so...
>
>No, not at all. All I am saying is some of the reasons for people
>being nasty comes from their superstitions. i.e. get rid of
>superstitions, and get rid of some of the nastiness.
Surely. Depressingly enough, I'm sure such people will find some other
justification for their behavior
Patrick Dunford
1998 08:14:05 +0000 in
nz.soc.religion:<362D97C2...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>> The Cathedral has written on its panelling just inside the door a long
>> discourse on the early origins of the settlement...including that the
>> name was to be "Christ Church".
>
>If I may quote that piece for you (bottom left half).
>
>IN 1848 THE CANTERBURY ASSOCIATION
>was formed. Dr J.B.SUMNER
>ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY being
>President and LORD.LYTTELTON
>Chairman.
>Of the 52 original Members 17
>had been ad Godley's old College
>CHRIST CHIRCH OXFORD
>On the 27th March 1848 the
>Canterbury Association resolved
>that
>"THE NAME OF THE PROPOSED
>SETTLEMENT BE CANTERBURY
>AND THE NAME OF THE CHIEF TOWN
>CHRISTCHURCH"
The spelling I have seen clearly is CHRIST CHURCH or "Christ Church"
The Cathedral uses the name "CHRIST CHURCH" very clearly.
So do other Christians in this town.
It is only a matter of semantics as to whether you use one or the other.
Brian Tozer
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>The spelling I have seen clearly is CHRIST CHURCH or "Christ Church"
>The Cathedral uses the name "CHRIST CHURCH" very clearly.
As an alternative form of the name of your city?
>So do other Christians in this town.
As an alternative form of the name of your city?
>It is only a matter of semantics as to whether you use one or the other.
If this is so I retract my comment of this morning re a retraction.
But you haven't produced any evidence yet.
Brian Tozer
Paul Wilkins
> The spelling I have seen clearly is CHRIST CHURCH or "Christ Church"
>
> The Cathedral uses the name "CHRIST CHURCH" very clearly.
Where does the Cathedral use the name?
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Patrick Dunford
1998 01:10:53 +0000 in
nz.soc.religion:<362E861C...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>> The spelling I have seen clearly is CHRIST CHURCH or "Christ Church"
>>
>> The Cathedral uses the name "CHRIST CHURCH" very clearly.
>
>Where does the Cathedral use the name?
I believe it appears as such on their letterhead. I don't have a copy of
that handy but look at last Saturday's Press W/E P32 where you will find
a notice in the Church Notices section headed "CHRIST CHURCH CATHEDRAL"
Brian Tozer
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>>> The Cathedral uses the name "CHRIST CHURCH" very clearly.
>>Where does the Cathedral use the name?
>I believe it appears as such on their letterhead. I don't have a copy of
>that handy but look at last Saturday's Press W/E P32 where you will find
>a notice in the Church Notices section headed "CHRIST CHURCH CATHEDRAL"
Good one Patrick!
On the grounds of probability, you were overdue for a win.
Pity it is concerning such an underwhelming issue.
Brian Tozer
The Scourge
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>Yea verily Paul Wilkins (pm...@student.canterbury.ac.nz) on Thu, 22 Oct
>I believe it appears as such on their letterhead. I don't have a copy of
>that handy but look at last Saturday's Press W/E P32 where you will find
>a notice in the Church Notices section headed "CHRIST CHURCH CATHEDRAL"
This from the man who shouts proof at every turn !!!
HAHAHAHAHA
Mind you, if its in The Press it must be true...
Couldn't be a typo...
Paul Wilkins
> I believe it appears as such on their letterhead. I don't have a copy of
> that handy but look at last Saturday's Press W/E P32 where you will find
> a notice in the Church Notices section headed "CHRIST CHURCH CATHEDRAL"
I've just had an interesting chat with the people at the Cathedral, and here
is what they told me.
Christ Church and Christchurch are totally different.
"Christ Church", the one used by the Christ Church Cathedral they said is used
to indicate that the Cathedral is linked to, and was set up by, those who came
from Christ Church College Oxford.
"Christchurch", however, is what the Canterbury Assiciation decided to call
our city.
SQ
So you will see, Mr Dunford, that the Christ Church that you insist is the
original name of Christchurch, is referring instead to the old boys school in Oxford.
Ever since the town sitting north of the port hills was first named, it was
named, and has always been named, Christchurch.
EQ
Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Brian Tozer
Paul Wilkins wrote in message
>Patrick Dunford wrote:
But you cheated by bringing facts into the discussion, and you know that
Patrick doesn't recognise them as valid evidence.
Brian Tozer
Paul Wilkins
> But you cheated by bringing facts into the discussion, and you know that
> Patrick doesn't recognise them as valid evidence.
Really? Well then
<fx: gleefully rubbing of hand together>
We may well have to do without facts and resort to name calling, strawman
arguments and just the plain old making up evidence to fit our own point of view.
But until I run out of avenues and my integrity is boiled down to the apparent
size of Patricks, I think that the facts will do me for now.
love and peace
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon) from a non-theist
Allistar Melville
McVeagh) wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:12:31 GMT, alli...@ihug.co.nz (Allistar
>Melville) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:47:21 GMT, SpamSp...@Luvverly.Spam (Jim
>>McVeagh) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:10:09 GMT, alli...@ihug.co.nz (Allistar
>>>Melville) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>This has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in general. All
>>>>>this demonstrates is that humans can be really nasty little buggers.
>>>>>Any excuse to kill and maim...
>>>>
>>>>The inquisitions have everything to do with Christianity.
>>>>
>>>>Sure humans can be nasty little buggers, all I'm saying is their
>>>>reasons for being nasty seem to come from their superstitions.
>>>
>>>You mean all the people who are NOT superstitious are nice?
>>>
>>>I don't think so...
>>
>>No, not at all. All I am saying is some of the reasons for people
>>being nasty comes from their superstitions. i.e. get rid of
>>superstitions, and get rid of some of the nastiness.
>
>Surely. Depressingly enough, I'm sure such people will find some other
>justification for their behavior
Indeed. But if you actually read some passages in the Bible, you will
see where they get their justification from.
Paul Wilkins
<snip>
> "Christ Church", the one used by the Christ Church Cathedral they said is used
> to indicate that the Cathedral is linked to, and was set up by, those who came
> from Christ Church College Oxford.
>
> "Christchurch", however, is what the Canterbury Assiciation decided to call
> our city.
<snip>
> Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
Hmm, no response yet. Has Patrick given up and chosen to ignore this thread?
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Brian Tozer
Paul Wilkins wrote in message
>> "Christ Church", the one used by the Christ Church Cathedral they said is
used
>> to indicate that the Cathedral is linked to, and was set up by, those who
came
>> from Christ Church College Oxford.
>> "Christchurch", however, is what the Canterbury Assiciation decided to
call
>> our city.
><snip>
>> Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
>Hmm, no response yet. Has Patrick given up and chosen to ignore this
thread?
If so he will be the only one.
The clock is counting down.
Brian Tozer
Patrick Dunford
+1300 in nz.soc.religion:<70llgh$iv0$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz> didst write
unto us...
>
>Paul Wilkins wrote in message
>>Patrick Dunford wrote:
>
>
>>> I believe it appears as such on their letterhead. I don't have a copy of
>>> that handy but look at last Saturday's Press W/E P32 where you will find
>>> a notice in the Church Notices section headed "CHRIST CHURCH CATHEDRAL"
>
>>I've just had an interesting chat with the people at the Cathedral, and
>here
>>is what they told me.
>
>>Christ Church and Christchurch are totally different.
>
>>"Christ Church", the one used by the Christ Church Cathedral they said is
>used
>>to indicate that the Cathedral is linked to, and was set up by, those who
>came
>>from Christ Church College Oxford.
>
>>"Christchurch", however, is what the Canterbury Assiciation decided to call
>>our city.
>
>>SQ
>>So you will see, Mr Dunford, that the Christ Church that you insist is the
>>original name of Christchurch, is referring instead to the old boys school
>in Oxford.
>>
>>Ever since the town sitting north of the port hills was first named, it was
>>named, and has always been named, Christchurch.
>>EQ
>
>>Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
>
>
>But you cheated by bringing facts into the discussion, and you know that
>Patrick doesn't recognise them as valid evidence.
Basically, that is nonsense.
I am happy to modify my signature slightly until I have been able to
determine the facts for myself.
it seems odd that the Cathedral uses an English form of the same name as
the city which supposedly has always used the different form.
--
Patrick Dunford, ChristChurch, NZ
==================================
Christian Democrats - On The Move
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~pdunford/otm/
Paul Wilkins
> it seems odd that the Cathedral uses an English form of the same name as
> the city which supposedly has always used the different form.
Who would know better than the people who run the cathedral itself? Christ
Church College in Oxford?
What steps can be taken to further our knowledge?
Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
Patrick Dunford
1998 00:50:43 +0000 in
nz.soc.religion:<362FD2CF...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> didst write
unto us...
>Paul Wilkins wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> "Christ Church", the one used by the Christ Church Cathedral they said is used
>> to indicate that the Cathedral is linked to, and was set up by, those who came
>> from Christ Church College Oxford.
>>
>> "Christchurch", however, is what the Canterbury Assiciation decided to call
>> our city.
>
><snip>
>
>> Mr Patrick sir - you are either mistaken, or a liar.
>
>Hmm, no response yet. Has Patrick given up and chosen to ignore this thread?
>
>Paul Wilkins (Disk Daemon)
No, the Christchurch news server went down for about a day :(
Brian Tozer
Patrick Dunford wrote in message ...
>I am happy to modify my signature slightly until I have been able to
>determine the facts for myself.
And as a means of avoiding having to admit that you were wrong.
>it seems odd that the Cathedral uses an English form of the same name as
>the city which supposedly has always used the different form.
Having trouble with reality again?
Perhaps there is a lesson in connection with making unwarranted assumptions
and not doing adequate research.
Is God trying to tell you something?
Truly he is a longsuffering God.
Brian Tozer