A good healthy religious lifestyle
Andy Bearsley
Meckan would get value out of it - it's a good example of a healthy
christian lifestyle.
Andy B.
BBC News Online: World: Asia-Pacific
Orphans 'tortured' by nuns for 90 years
Monday, March 30, 1998 Published at 21:13 GMT 22:13 UK
Orphans 'tortured' by nuns for 90 years
Allegations that Roman Catholic nuns systematically tortured orphans over a
period of 90 years are being investigated by Australian authorities.
Children at the Neerkol orphanage in northern Queensland were scalded with
boiling water, locked under the floor and had their toenails pulled out with
pliers, a report by a university lecturer says. Beatings, public floggings
and rape were also practiced, the report alleges.
The order which runs the home, the Sisters of Mercy, apologised earlier this
month for what had happened at Neerkol.
The report by Professor Bruce Grundy of the Department of Journalism at
Queensland University says the events went on for 90 years until 1976.
Official investigation
The orphanage is now under official investigation by the Queensland State
Children's Commissioner, Norm Alford. He expects to release a preliminary
report next month.
The orphans included 48 children who were part of a British Government
orphan migration program which is under investigation by a House of Commons
committee.
Punishment for holding hands
Mr Grundy said he could not think of any brutality or inhumanity that was
not practiced. They ranged from floggings with a whip at the hands of
workmen, to having legs plunged into boiling water.
One girl had her fingers broken because by holding a boy's hand she had
broken a rule. The boy, however, was her brother.
Another former resident, Helen Carter, now in her 30s, told how the nuns
once thrust a red hot poker down her back to exorcise the devil.
Mr Grundy said he had no idea why the atrocities were carried out by people
who in theory subscribed to Christian principles.
"One can come up with theories that the orphanage was in a relatively
isolated area, one can suggest certain sexual repressions, one can suggest
that this was inculcated into them from the earliest days and it was just
passed on from generation to generation -- none of which is a very
satisfactory explanation" he said.
'Depthless depravity'
The report said: "Madness, ruthless and sadistic madness on the part of at
least some of the nuns and a depthless depravity on the part of some of the
men who inhabited the place are the defining characteristics of those who
ran the orphanage."
"There was, it seems, no obvious torment or torture some of the nuns were
incapable of administering. There was no limit to the sexual deviance that
could be engaged in with those who were unlucky enough to find themselves
singled out as 'the chosen ones'."
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Andy,
I observe your posts and say little. I think you
know as well as all of us that the behaviour exhibited in your post by
the Nuns (if true-and I am not dismissing the allegations) is
definately not healthy Christian behaviour. Neither is it healthy
homosexual behaviour, neither is it healthy heterosexual behaviour. It
is repressive and deviant behaviour.
About the only thing that this confirms is that
Christianity is correct when it asserts that humanity has a fallen
nature and is capable of the depths of depravity that your post refers
too. The Bible is full of recorded deviant behaviour within God's
people and without.
Finally, there is a God and there will be a judgement
Day. Then these matters will be brought out into the Light and rewards
and punishments will be given.
This post is not meant as a stir.
Peace.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He,who has neither the repentance of the Tax Collector, nor the good deeds of the Pharisee.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The Word was made flesh in order to offer up this Body for all,
and that we, partaking of His Spirit, might be deified."
Saint Athanasius the Apostolic. 298-373 AD.
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Andy,
>Get well soon.
Thank you for your concern.
> You're deeply in a complex delusional system that you've
>constructed around yourself to deal with some lacking in your life.
I understand that your self defence mode has kicked in. Do not worry I
am not going to hurt you.
>
>> I observe your posts and say little. I think you
>> know as well as all of us that the behaviour exhibited in your post by
>> the Nuns (if true-and I am not dismissing the allegations) is
>> definately not healthy Christian behaviour. Neither is it healthy
>> homosexual behaviour, neither is it healthy heterosexual behaviour. It
>> is repressive and deviant behaviour.
>
>I agree totally. Of that there is no question.
>
>
>> Finally, there is a God and there will be a judgement
>> Day. Then these matters will be brought out into the Light and rewards
>> and punishments will be given.
>
>The more you reinforce your delusion, the longer it will take to get better.
The more you reinforce your attempt at self defence and self
justification, the longer it will take to come out of it.
Peace.
PS. I am happy to let you respond as you like and then I shall return
to reading mode. I mean you no harm-I come in peace, I now leave you
in peace.
Andy Bearsley
St.Athanasius <athmi...@quicknet.com.au> wrote in message
news:375e5546...@news.quicknet.com.au...
> In the Name of the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Get well soon. You're deeply in a complex delusional system that you've
constructed around yourself to deal with some lacking in your life.
> I observe your posts and say little. I think you
> know as well as all of us that the behaviour exhibited in your post by
> the Nuns (if true-and I am not dismissing the allegations) is
> definately not healthy Christian behaviour. Neither is it healthy
> homosexual behaviour, neither is it healthy heterosexual behaviour. It
> is repressive and deviant behaviour.
I agree totally. Of that there is no question.
> Finally, there is a God and there will be a judgement
> Day. Then these matters will be brought out into the Light and rewards
> and punishments will be given.
The more you reinforce your delusion, the longer it will take to get better.
Andy B.
Andy Bearsley
> > You're deeply in a complex delusional system that you've
> >constructed around yourself to deal with some lacking in your life.
>
> I understand that your self defence mode has kicked in. Do not worry I
> am not going to hurt you.
No, you misunderstand. Its you I'm trying to help have a better life.
This has nothing to do with me.
> The more you reinforce your attempt at self defence and self
> justification, the longer it will take to come out of it.
I'm afraid you're going to have to demonstrate where I'm using a
self-justification, or working in self-defence.
Check out http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe03.html for a very good
description of your illness.
> PS. I am happy to let you respond as you like and then I shall return
> to reading mode. I mean you no harm-I come in peace, I now leave you
> in peace.
Hang on, your very paragraph wished me infected with a destructive
unhealthy disease. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
Andy B.
Robert Howard
Andy Bearsley <an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> wrote in article
>
> Orphans 'tortured' by nuns for 90 years
> Allegations that Roman Catholic nuns systematically tortured orphans over
a
> period of 90 years are being investigated by Australian authorities.
> Children at the Neerkol orphanage in northern Queensland were scalded
with
> boiling water, locked under the floor and had their toenails pulled out
with
> pliers, a report by a university lecturer says. Beatings, public
floggings
> and rape were also practiced, the report alleges.
> The order which runs the home, the Sisters of Mercy, apologised earlier
this
> month for what had happened at Neerkol.
This story goes hand in hand with the story recently of the girls
imprisoned and forced to work in a laundry in Ireland for 3 years. Why do
these things happen?
It is a product of the atmosphere of Catholic convents as they were 30 and
more years ago. They were small authoritarian societies where what the nuns
said went. Disobeying the nuns was tantamount to disobeying God. Since the
health of the soul was involved any attitude or punishment was justified
and there was no appeal or no one to take the part of the child. It was
tailor made for sadists and sexual misfits with it's repressive atmosphere.
To make matters worse the nuns themselves were under the same pressure.
Mother Superior and the overiding local Catholic priest required total
obedience. The decent nuns could not speak out without running the risk of
spending eternity in hell for disobedience. The younger nuns were often
childish. They were not allowed to mature and build their own characters
for fear of the sin of pride, as well, they could'nt get out into the
community and mix with people to broaden their horizons.
Under those conditions the sadists and those devoid of feelings got
together and sank into brutal depravity.
I am not suggesting all nuns in Catholic schools were like that 50 years
ago, but everyone who went to a Catholic school 40 or 50 years ago at least
knows the atmosphere and attitudes I am talking about.
Bob Howard.
Andrew Bromage
"Andy Bearsley" <an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> writes, to Greg Scully:
>Check out http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe03.html for a very good
>description of your illness.
Andy, I hope you realise that mental illness is a very serious matter,
and the DSM which you reference is very easy to misuse by someone who
doesn't understand it. In particular, you don't seem to understand
schitzoid personality disorder, the main warning signs of which are
emotional detatchment or isolation, which one could hardly accuse Greg
of. Nor do you, as far as I can tell, have any psychiatric or other
medical qualifications.
(BTW, neither do I. My interest in mental health is as a lay observer
and no more.)
>Hang on, your very paragraph wished me infected with a destructive
>unhealthy disease. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
Mental illness is not an infection.
I think an apology to Greg is in order.
Cheers,
Andrew Bromage
Allistar Melville
(St.Athanasius) wrote:
>In the Name of the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
>Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
>
>Dear Andy,
> I observe your posts and say little. I think you
>know as well as all of us that the behaviour exhibited in your post by
>the Nuns (if true-and I am not dismissing the allegations) is
>definately not healthy Christian behaviour. Neither is it healthy
>homosexual behaviour, neither is it healthy heterosexual behaviour. It
>is repressive and deviant behaviour.
Correct. It is disgusting behaviour. I consider that even "normal"
religious schools conduct disgusting behaviour - that is the
recruiting of children into their lifestyle.
> About the only thing that this confirms is that
>Christianity is correct when it asserts that humanity has a fallen
>nature and is capable of the depths of depravity that your post refers
>too. The Bible is full of recorded deviant behaviour within God's
>people and without.
And throughout history we see that people have even used their
religion as an excuse to do the disgusting deeds they do. The
inquisitions for one.
> Finally, there is a God and there will be a judgement
>Day. Then these matters will be brought out into the Light and rewards
>and punishments will be given.
I respect your right to have these beliefs, I just don't respect the
beliefs themselves. Asserting something as true doesn't make it so.
>This post is not meant as a stir.
>
>Peace.
Allistar.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Allistar Melville (BSc) Home: alli...@ihug.co.nz \_
Software Developer Work: alli...@focussoft.co.nz </'
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND /)
(/`
"Science built the Academy, superstition the inquisition."
[Robert G. Ingersoll]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Bearsley
Andrew Bromage <bro...@cs.mu.oz.au> wrote in message
news:7jng4b$cdi$1...@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU...
> G'day all.
>
> "Andy Bearsley" <an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> writes, to Greg Scully:
>
> >Check out http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe03.html for a very good
> >description of your illness.
>
> Andy, I hope you realise that mental illness is a very serious matter,
Indeed.
> and the DSM which you reference is very easy to misuse by someone who
> doesn't understand it.
Indeed.
> In particular, you don't seem to understand
> schitzoid personality disorder, the main warning signs of which are
> emotional detatchment or isolation, which one could hardly accuse Greg
> of. Nor do you, as far as I can tell, have any psychiatric or other
> medical qualifications.
Hmmm... so you're saying that it really would be lacking in integrity to
take something like that out of context and use it against a person or a
group of people to engender bad feelings toward them?
Bummer!
> >Hang on, your very paragraph wished me infected with a destructive
> >unhealthy disease. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
>
> Mental illness is not an infection.
I think you missed the point.
> I think an apology to Greg is in order.
As soon as he apologises for wishing me harm, I'll consider that perhaps
he's showing signs of rationality.
Andy B.
Brendan
On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:41:01 +1200, "Andy Bearsley"
<an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> wrote in message
[<7jkunf$3m6$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>]:
>'Depthless depravity'
In Australia, eh ? Perhaps Able can tell us more ? ;)
Seriously, this abomination is the work of a group of people given too much
power, and a 'god given right'.
Brendan
--
Therefore, I say: Know your enemy and know yourself;
in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.
When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself,
your chances of winning or losing are equal.
If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself,
you are sure to be defeated in every battle.
- Sun Tzu's "Art of War".
All my comments are "In my Opinion", unless otherwise stated.
George Politis
>I respect your right to have these beliefs, I just don't respect the
>beliefs themselves. Asserting something as true doesn't make it so.
I hope you also agree that your asserting that something is false
doesn't make it false either.
At least Greg's point of view offers an explanation of observed
phenomena., and a conclusion that appeals not only to our minds
but to all aspects of our humanity.
George.
Theo Bekkers
Robert Howard <rho...@thenet.co.nz> wrote
>
> I am not suggesting all nuns in Catholic schools were like that 50 years
> ago, but everyone who went to a Catholic school 40 or 50 years ago at
least
> knows the atmosphere and attitudes I am talking about.
Actually, no. I went to several Catholic schools about 40 years ago and
thoroughly enjoyed my school years. Discipline was stricter then now but not
much different to home or a subsequent secular school. There were no
depraved teachers (Marist Brothers) that I was aware of. Discipline was just
and fair.
They turned me into a good atheist. :-)
Cheers
Theo
Stanislaw Flatto
They must be right, it was hyena.
Stanislaw.
Andy Bearsley wrote:
> This is quite old, but it just fell into my lap today. I thought Lawrence
> Meckan would get value out of it - it's a good example of a healthy
> christian lifestyle.
>
> Andy B.
>
> BBC News Online: World: Asia-Pacific
> Orphans 'tortured' by nuns for 90 years
> Monday, March 30, 1998 Published at 21:13 GMT 22:13 UK
>
Allistar Melville
<geo...@resaerch.canon.com.au> wrote:
>Allistar Melville wrote:
>>I respect your right to have these beliefs, I just don't respect the
>>beliefs themselves. Asserting something as true doesn't make it so.
>
>I hope you also agree that your asserting that something is false
>doesn't make it false either.
Absolutely with out a doubt.
I may be mistaken, but I don't remember asserting something as false,
I normally just assert my belief (or lack thereof).
>At least Greg's point of view offers an explanation of observed
>phenomena., and a conclusion that appeals not only to our minds
>but to all aspects of our humanity.
I'm interested in this, could you expand what you mean by
"appealing... to all aspects of our humanity"?
>George.
Allistar
Allistar Melville
<fla...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>And still some refuse to accept that we descended from monkeys.
>They must be right, it was hyena.
Who says we were descended from Monkeys?
Current evolutionary theory suggests we descended from the same
species that Monkeys descended from.
>Stanislaw.
Allistar.
Stanislaw Flatto
Stanislaw
Les Brown
Look Bearsley, I've easily managed to ignore your posts up until now
as I'm not particulalry interested in discussions with single-topic
people. I am also not one to enter in much discussion with Greg
because our views are so opposite, but I do find your attitude highly
arrogant.
I checked Greg's previous posts and nothing he said was anywhere as
offensive as what you wrote, and by comparison to your posts it was
totally innocuous. I agree with Andrew's request. You should
apologise.
Now get off your high-horse and be a decent human-being for a change
and apologise - or does your sexual handicap also translate to a moral
one as well?
Les Brown
Andy Bearsley
Les Brown <p...@ocean.com.au> wrote in message
news:3764d503...@news.ocean.com.au...
> Now get off your high-horse and be a decent human-being for a change
> and apologise - or does your sexual handicap also translate to a moral
> one as well?
Tell me about this 'sexual handicap' you mention.
Andy B.
Julian S Visch
|> "Andy Bearsley" <an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> wrote in
|> >take something like that out of context and use it against a person or a
|> >group of people to engender bad feelings toward them?
|> >Bummer!
In case you are unaware what Andy is getting at, it is that he is just throwing
back the same treatment that lots of Christians do to homosexuals. i.e. he is
demonstrating how wrong and offensive it is, so don't blame him, blame the
Christian religion.
|> I checked Greg's previous posts and nothing he said was anywhere as
|> offensive as what you wrote, and by comparison to your posts it was
|> totally innocuous. I agree with Andrew's request. You should
|> apologise.
Now if Greg in a previous post made any negative comments about gays, then
it is Gregg who should apologise not Andy, I have noticed in the past lots
of Christians posting anti-gay messages and have yet to any apologise for
doing so. On the other hand if Gregg at no point was anti-gay, and Andy
attacked him purely because he was a Christian then I would have to agree
that Andy be a bit more pleasent as not all Christians are to blame for the
bigotry that clouds their church.
|> Now get off your high-horse and be a decent human-being for a change
|> and apologise - or does your sexual handicap also translate to a moral
|> one as well?
It this how you show that you are any better?
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Les,
I just saw this message and have not received
Andrew's message due to my problems with my server.
I thank you for your defence on my behalf. It is appreciated. Further,
to Julian, I have never posted anything derogatory about
gays/homosexuals anywhere. FYIO.
Peace to all.
I am still having some trouble getting onto my server, but Troy may
have now fixed the problem.
Peace and grace.
On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:43:34 GMT, p...@ocean.com.au (Les Brown) wrote:
>"Andy Bearsley" <an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> wrote in
>aus.religion.christian:
>
>>> "Andy Bearsley" <an...@ambient.gen.nz.remove> writes, to Greg Scully:
>>>
>>> >Check out http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe03.html for a very good
>>> >description of your illness.
>>>
>>> Andy, I hope you realise that mental illness is a very serious matter,
>>
>>Indeed.
>>
>>
>>> and the DSM which you reference is very easy to misuse by someone who
>>> doesn't understand it.
>>
>>Indeed.
>>
>>
>>> In particular, you don't seem to understand
>>> schitzoid personality disorder, the main warning signs of which are
>>> emotional detatchment or isolation, which one could hardly accuse Greg
>>> of. Nor do you, as far as I can tell, have any psychiatric or other
>>> medical qualifications.
>>
>>Hmmm... so you're saying that it really would be lacking in integrity to
>>take something like that out of context and use it against a person or a
>>group of people to engender bad feelings toward them?
>>Bummer!
>>
>>> >Hang on, your very paragraph wished me infected with a destructive
>>> >unhealthy disease. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
>>>
>>> Mental illness is not an infection.
>>
>>I think you missed the point.
>>
>>> I think an apology to Greg is in order.
>>
>>As soon as he apologises for wishing me harm, I'll consider that perhaps
>>he's showing signs of rationality.
>>
>Look Bearsley, I've easily managed to ignore your posts up until now
>as I'm not particulalry interested in discussions with single-topic
>people. I am also not one to enter in much discussion with Greg
>because our views are so opposite, but I do find your attitude highly
>arrogant.
>
>I checked Greg's previous posts and nothing he said was anywhere as
>offensive as what you wrote, and by comparison to your posts it was
>totally innocuous. I agree with Andrew's request. You should
>apologise.
>
>Now get off your high-horse and be a decent human-being for a change
>and apologise - or does your sexual handicap also translate to a moral
>one as well?
>
>Les Brown
Andy Bearsley
> I just saw this message and have not received
> Andrew's message due to my problems with my server.
If you're talking about me, I prefer Andy, thanks.
> I thank you for your defence on my behalf. It is appreciated.
So you agree with Les that I have a 'sexual handicap'?
Andy B.
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with His elect.
Dear Andy,
>> I just saw this message and have not received
>> Andrew's message due to my problems with my server.
>
>If you're talking about me, I prefer Andy, thanks.
Thats cool. Andy it is.
>
>
>> I thank you for your defence on my behalf. It is appreciated.
>
>So you agree with Les that I have a 'sexual handicap'?
Firstly, I thanked Les for defending me against your provocation,
which I did not take up.
Secondly, My thanking Les in no way shows any formal agreement between
his beliefs and mine. He agrees with this. In fact many of our beliefs
are poles apart.
Thirdly, Since you force me to this issue-yes you do have a sexual
handicap, it is homosexuality. BUT- I have a sexual handicap-its
called heterosexuality, others I know have a sexual handicap- its
called celibacy. IN SHORT WE ALL HAVE SEXUAL HANDICAPS.
This stems from our being 'sexual' creatures in part of our creation.
In a perfect world then all of us would use our sexuality to give
glory to God and in accordance with His will for mankind. This is not
a perfect world, it is fallen into sinfulness and disobedience.
Therefore, sexual misuse is rife amongst ALL PEOPLE.
However, the answer, I believe, to this dilemma, is in the Gospel of
Jesus Christ the Eternal Son of God who was Incarnated at the time of
Pontius Pilate. Therefore. in my opinion, your sexual handicap, my
sexual handicap and every body elses sexual handicaps are all dealt
with in the life of Jesus Christ, IF we allow Him to deal with it.
These are my thought on your question.
I repeat what I said to you in the earlier post. I am not here to hurt
you and you can shelve your self defence attitude with me. Further,
your efforts of self justification of your particular sexual handicap
fall on deaf ears with me as we are all in the same boat and there is
only one answer to the dilemma-Christ.
Peace.
Andy Bearsley
> Thats cool. Andy it is.
Thanks.
> Thirdly, Since you force me to this issue-yes you do have a sexual
> handicap, it is homosexuality. BUT- I have a sexual handicap-its
> called heterosexuality, others I know have a sexual handicap- its
> called celibacy. IN SHORT WE ALL HAVE SEXUAL HANDICAPS.
Can you please add "... in my opinion." to that. I do not have any sexual
handicap and I challenge you to present evidence to indicate otherwise.
> fall on deaf ears with me as we are all in the same boat and there is
> only one answer to the dilemma-Christ.
Well if in your delusions you have sexual problems, then it stands to
reason you'd think that your delusion holds the answer to them. A far
better solution is to lose the delusion, gain a healthy self-esteem, and
lose your sexual hangups.
Do not tar me with your disease - trying to make yourself feel better about
your personal problems by pretending everyone has them isn't going to do
yourself any good.
Andy B.
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with His elect.
Dear Andy,
I said:
> IN SHORT WE ALL HAVE SEXUAL HANDICAPS.
>
You said:
>Can you please add "... in my opinion." to that. I do not have any sexual
>handicap and I challenge you to present evidence to indicate otherwise.
I allow your host of posts on this one subject to be the evidence
submitted to challenge your denial. I am happy not to take that line
further. You remember I was answering your question and challenge, not
making one.
>
You also said:
>Well if in your delusions you have sexual problems, then it stands to
>reason you'd think that your delusion holds the answer to them. A far
>better solution is to lose the delusion, gain a healthy self-esteem, and
>lose your sexual hangups.
Ah, suddenly 'handicap' changes to the more negative 'problems' and
'hangups'. You are a master at the subtle shift of words. But this is
neither what I said or meant and I think you know this already.
>
>Do not tar me with your disease - trying to make yourself feel better about
>your personal problems by pretending everyone has them isn't going to do
>yourself any good.
Now I have personal problems just because I admitted that all of
humanity is 'sexual' in part of its being. Your negativity pours
forth without you even knowing it, I am not horrified by you at all, I
just feel a lot of pity. In any case, you have found many Christians
who are not homophobic and able to enter into dialogue with you. Shame
that it appears to be you that, as a self defence mode, is attackative
towards everybody. This is a sign (ghast-should I mention it) of
mental instability Andy. It is called persecution syndrome, the JW's
suffer from it as well and the results are a very stressful and
negative outlook on life. I suggest that some Spiritual guidance and
perhaps a clearing of the guilt you retain through confession of your
sins may help you to find peace again in your life.
May peace and you meet one day soon.
He,who has neither the repentance of the Tax Collector, nor the good deeds of the Pharisee.
"The Word was made flesh in order to offer up this Body for all,
Andy Bearsley
> I said:
> > IN SHORT WE ALL HAVE SEXUAL HANDICAPS.
> >
> You said:
> >Can you please add "... in my opinion." to that. I do not have any
sexual
> >handicap and I challenge you to present evidence to indicate otherwise.
>
> I allow your host of posts on this one subject to be the evidence
> submitted to challenge your denial.
Can you explain how my debunking anti-gay rhetoric is a sign of a handicap?
> I am happy not to take that line
> further. You remember I was answering your question and challenge, not
> making one.
You were making one. Specifically you were saying I have a sexual handicap.
Back that up or withdraw the statement.
> Ah, suddenly 'handicap' changes to the more negative 'problems' and
> 'hangups'. You are a master at the subtle shift of words. But this is
> neither what I said or meant and I think you know this already.
Give me a definition of handicap that expresses a positive position.
> >Do not tar me with your disease - trying to make yourself feel better
about
> >your personal problems by pretending everyone has them isn't going to do
> >yourself any good.
>
> Now I have personal problems just because I admitted that all of
> humanity is 'sexual' in part of its being.
No, you have personal problems because you're surrounded in a delusional
world. Your sexual hangups are just a small part of that problem.
> that it appears to be you that, as a self defence mode, is attackative
> towards everybody.
Is that a real word?
> This is a sign (ghast-should I mention it) of
> mental instability Andy. It is called persecution syndrome, the JW's
> suffer from it as well and the results are a very stressful and
> negative outlook on life.
Ummmm... and all the articles I post about gays being attacked - that's
just part of my syndrome as well? What about the articles showing
christians lobbying for denial of equal rights to gays. Is that part of my
syndrome too? How about when the christian on this very newsgroup start
pointing out how evil, bad, sinful, deviant, unnatural, abhorent, <etc>
my lifestyle is. I guess those are all symptoms of my syndrome too, right?
> I suggest that some Spiritual guidance and
> perhaps a clearing of the guilt you retain through confession of your
> sins may help you to find peace again in your life.
Now, tell me about this guilt. What is it I'm feeling guilty about?
Tell me about your guilt. What do you feel guilty about?
Andy B.
Julian S Visch
|> >Can you please add "... in my opinion." to that. I do not have any sexual
|> >handicap and I challenge you to present evidence to indicate otherwise.
|>
|> I allow your host of posts on this one subject to be the evidence
I decided to monitor your posts to see if Andy did owe you an apology,
well from the last few posts it is apparent to me that you own him one.
To state that someone has a sexual handicap is just plain rude. If
you had as Andy suggested said "in my opinion" then that is not rude.
|> Now I have personal problems just because I admitted that all of
|> humanity is 'sexual' in part of its being. Your negativity pours
|> forth without you even knowing it, I am not horrified by you at all, I
|> just feel a lot of pity.
You put out negative ideas, Andy just points out that you are wrong.
|> who are not homophobic and able to enter into dialogue with you. Shame
|> that it appears to be you that, as a self defence mode, is attackative
|> towards everybody. This is a sign (ghast-should I mention it) of
Andy only attacks those who attack him. It is sad that you don't realise
that you are attacking people.
|> negative outlook on life. I suggest that some Spiritual guidance and
|> perhaps a clearing of the guilt you retain through confession of your
|> sins may help you to find peace again in your life.
Once again you are rude towards him, you imply he is guilty, that he sins.
He does neither. Apologise and write politely and you will find Andy will
respond in kind.
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Andy,
Greetings again,
>Can you explain how my debunking anti-gay rhetoric is a sign of a handicap?
Andy, any behaviour, in limited amounts may be seen as the 'norm' by
most people, however, you are clearly concentrating on only one area
and are posting copious amounts of documents and articles on that one
issue alone. When others have tried to discuss other matters with you
(like this thread) you immediately bring it back into the 'safe
harbour' for you of 'homosexual'bashing'. Andy, this is another angle
of mental instability didn't you know? Its called compulsive Syndrome
or similar. Where someone has the inability to discuss or do any other
thing than what they are compulsive about. I again recommend
confession and spiritual guidance as an avenue out of this behaviour.
>
>> I am happy not to take that line
>> further. You remember I was answering your question and challenge, not
>> making one.
>
>You were making one. Specifically you were saying I have a sexual handicap.
>Back that up or withdraw the statement.
Again I repeat that your copious amount of posts confirm that issue.
>
>
>> Ah, suddenly 'handicap' changes to the more negative 'problems' and
>> 'hangups'. You are a master at the subtle shift of words. But this is
>> neither what I said or meant and I think you know this already.
>
>Give me a definition of handicap that expresses a positive position.
I used handicap akin to how a horse is weighted up in a race. He has a
propensity to win more than others so the bookies handicap him by
giving him heavier weights to race with. Now I said that all humanity
has a handicap with regard to their sexuality. This is where we tend
to use our sexuality in ways that they were not created for or
intended for by God who made us all. Now God has put the extra weights
on us (for our own good-not His). These are the 'rules' or loving
requirements that are designed by God to keep humanity upon the path
to perfection, restoration and salvation. Now as a married
heterosexual Christian man, I am handicapped in that I am not
permitted to look at any other woman/young lady in a way that is
lustful or derogatory towards her sexuality or demeaning to the
relationship that God established with my wife. However, my propensity
to disobey God leads me to 'want to' look or desire to 'look' etc, yet
the Spirit within gives me the grace to say no when I rely on God, and
when I do not then I fail and take that 'second look of sin', as the
fathers of the Church call it. Now for you its different some what but
the same foundational requirements are the same. God requires certain
actions from you, if you relied on Him, then He would give you the
grace to overcome the handicap you have, if you refused to rely on Him
then you go it alone and struggle on with the propensity to disobey
running wild. I hope this clarifys it a bit.
>
>
>> >Do not tar me with your disease -
Andy, life is a disease that is 100 per cent fatal. We shall all die
one day (if Christ doesn't return first).
> trying to make yourself feel better
>about
>> >your personal problems by pretending everyone has them isn't going to do
>> >yourself any good.
I am not trying to make myself feel better at all. I believe the Bible
when it says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of
God." This includes you and me and everyone reading these words.
>>
>> Now I have personal problems just because I admitted that all of
>> humanity is 'sexual' in part of its being.
>
>No, you have personal problems because you're surrounded in a delusional
>world. Your sexual hangups are just a small part of that problem.
On the contrary, from my viewpoint, it is delusional to deny God or
His creation. Your comment about sexual hangups is not worthy of
reply.
>
>> that it appears to be you that, as a self defence mode, is attackative
>> towards everybody.
>
>Is that a real word?
The real world Andy contains both good and evil, God and Satan. The
idea is to understand who is pulling the strings in our lives.
>
>> This is a sign (ghast-should I mention it) of
>> mental instability Andy. It is called persecution syndrome, the JW's
>> suffer from it as well and the results are a very stressful and
>> negative outlook on life.
>
>Ummmm... and all the articles I post about gays being attacked - that's
>just part of my syndrome as well?
Andy, I must ask. Have you ever bee bashed for being a homosexual?
Also Were you ever bashed/mistreated by Christians for being a
homosexual?
Also is your family Christian and have they rejected you due to your
homosexuality.
If these questions are too personal or you refuse to answer them thats
cool with me. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
> What about the articles showing
>christians lobbying for denial of equal rights to gays. Is that part of my
>syndrome too? How about when the christian on this very newsgroup start
>pointing out how evil, bad, sinful, deviant, unnatural, abhorent, <etc>
>my lifestyle is. I guess those are all symptoms of my syndrome too, right?
If you have a persecution syndrome you would go looking for trouble
just as the JW's do and then they feel better as they get rejected and
this reinforces their delusional system that they must be right as
they are receiving persecution. Its a mean circle of abuse. Its hard
to break it for a cult member and its hard to break it for a
homosexual who carries guilt. But there is hope in Christ, if you
desire that help.
>
>> I suggest that some Spiritual guidance and
>> perhaps a clearing of the guilt you retain through confession of your
>> sins may help you to find peace again in your life.
>
>Now, tell me about this guilt. What is it I'm feeling guilty about?
Perhaps if you have answered my above questions then I would be in a
better place to answer these questions. ]
>Tell me about your guilt. What do you feel guilty about?
I feel guilty about mistreating people.I feel guilty about meeting
verbal force with the same response. I feel guilty about not being the
man that God calls me to be in all the circumstances. I feel guilty
about not being able to get through to some people on this NG. I feel
guilty whenever I notice that a woman is very beautiful and hardly
ever notice the plain ones.(My spiritual advisor thinks I am being too
hard on myself for this one) I think I have judged them on their
outward appearance instead of what really counts. I feel guilty when a
programe comes on TV and has sexual or vulgar references and I don't
turn it off quick enough. I feel guilty that I am a bad witness to my
faith, I FEEL GUILTY .....Yet, I repent of my guilt very often, before
God and in the presence of one of His priests. I am blessed to here
the words of absolution that Christ Himself gave to His Apostles. I am
not worthy to hear those words prayed over me.
Might I recommend the same for you.
Peace.
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with His elect.
On 16 Jun 1999 23:57:59 GMT, mat...@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Julian S
Visch) wrote:
>In article <37674736...@w4.cia.com.au>, athmi...@quicknet.com.au (St.Athanasius) writes:
>|> >Can you please add "... in my opinion." to that. I do not have any sexual
>|> >handicap and I challenge you to present evidence to indicate otherwise.
>|>
>|> I allow your host of posts on this one subject to be the evidence
>
>I decided to monitor your posts to see if Andy did owe you an apology,
>well from the last few posts it is apparent to me that you own him one.
>To state that someone has a sexual handicap is just plain rude. If
>you had as Andy suggested said "in my opinion" then that is not rude.
I considered corresponding to you for the time it took to write my
header. Now I have changed my mind.
Troy Harris
Visch) wrote:
>In article <37674736...@w4.cia.com.au>, athmi...@quicknet.com.au (St.Athanasius) writes:
>|> >Can you please add "... in my opinion." to that. I do not have any sexual
>|> >handicap and I challenge you to present evidence to indicate otherwise.
>|>
>|> I allow your host of posts on this one subject to be the evidence
>
>I decided to monitor your posts to see if Andy did owe you an apology,
>well from the last few posts it is apparent to me that you own him one.
>To state that someone has a sexual handicap is just plain rude. If
>you had as Andy suggested said "in my opinion" then that is not rude.
Imagine this- coming from Julian V!!!!!
ROTFL.
Troy H
>
>|> Now I have personal problems just because I admitted that all of
>|> humanity is 'sexual' in part of its being. Your negativity pours
>|> forth without you even knowing it, I am not horrified by you at all, I
>|> just feel a lot of pity.
>
>You put out negative ideas, Andy just points out that you are wrong.
>
>|> who are not homophobic and able to enter into dialogue with you. Shame
>|> that it appears to be you that, as a self defence mode, is attackative
>|> towards everybody. This is a sign (ghast-should I mention it) of
>
>Andy only attacks those who attack him. It is sad that you don't realise
>that you are attacking people.
>
>|> negative outlook on life. I suggest that some Spiritual guidance and
>|> perhaps a clearing of the guilt you retain through confession of your
>|> sins may help you to find peace again in your life.
>
>Once again you are rude towards him, you imply he is guilty, that he sins.
>He does neither. Apologise and write politely and you will find Andy will
>respond in kind.
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Troy H - repentant sinner-
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"- D. Adams
"Hör visheten ropar, och förståndet höjer sin röst"- Ordspråksboken 8:1
Chris Ho-Stuart
> "St.Athanasius" wrote:
> >
> > In the Name of ther Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> > Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
>
But not all of them....
It's pretty much a "sig". It lets us know where he is coming from.
Taking offense is pretty pointless; and indeed counter productive.
You have posted to aus.religion.christian (amongst other groups).
If you are offended but such sentiments, I recommend you trim the
headers. I mean that seriously and with no ill will. I strongly
suggest you trim your headers if you are going to be offended by
such sentiments.
Felicitations -- Chris
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Andy,
I notice that you snipped the following questions from my last post
and did not answer them or mention them at all:
Andy, I must ask. Have you ever bee bashed for being a homosexual?
Also Were you ever bashed/mistreated by Christians for being a
homosexual?
Also is your family Christian and have they rejected you due to your
homosexuality.
If these questions are too personal or you refuse to answer them thats
cool with me. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
It is cool that you refused to be opne about these matters, however, I
now feel that without you being honest and open about your guilt that
I am no longer able to be of service. I therefore wish you adieu.
Andy Bearsley
> >Can you explain how my debunking anti-gay rhetoric is a sign of a
handicap?
>
> Andy, any behaviour, in limited amounts may be seen as the 'norm' by
> most people, however, you are clearly concentrating on only one area
> and are posting copious amounts of documents and articles on that one
> issue alone.
Ah, you mean like someone who goes to church regularly and prays regularly?
Hmmm... I think I understand.
So you're saying that if someone posts anti-gay messages here I should just
let them slide. If someone addresses a message to me I should ignore it.
And if a religious gay article arrives in my news I shouldn't pass it on to
others, right?
> When others have tried to discuss other matters with you
> (like this thread) you immediately bring it back into the 'safe
> harbour' for you of 'homosexual'bashing'. Andy, this is another angle
> of mental instability didn't you know? Its called compulsive Syndrome
> or similar.
You mean like opening every message with an insult, and in all discussions
refering back to your invisible friend? It's becomming clearer. Thanks for
pointing out all these mental illnesses I'm suffering from.
> Where someone has the inability to discuss or do any other
> thing than what they are compulsive about. I again recommend
> confession and spiritual guidance as an avenue out of this behaviour.
<chuckle> I just bet you do... I just bet you do. So tell me more about
this invisible friend you have. Do you talk to it? How much effect does
your invisible friend have in your day to day life? How much do you weigh?
> >You were making one. Specifically you were saying I have a sexual
handicap.
> >Back that up or withdraw the statement.
>
> Again I repeat that your copious amount of posts confirm that issue.
You haven't shown any relationship between the number of posts, the content
of posts, and my 'sexual handicap'.
> >Give me a definition of handicap that expresses a positive position.
>
> I used handicap akin to how a horse is weighted up in a race. He has a
> propensity to win more than others so the bookies handicap him by
...
> on us (for our own good-not His). These are the 'rules' or loving
> requirements that are designed by God to keep humanity upon the path
> to perfection, restoration and salvation. Now as a married
> heterosexual Christian man, I am handicapped in that I am not
> permitted to look at any other woman/young lady in a way that is
> lustful or derogatory towards her sexuality or demeaning to the
> relationship that God established with my wife.
Hold on, you're changing your definitions now.
Originally you said:
SQ
Thirdly, Since you force me to this issue-yes you do have a sexual
handicap, it is homosexuality. BUT- I have a sexual handicap-its
called heterosexuality, others I know have a sexual handicap- its
called celibacy. IN SHORT WE ALL HAVE SEXUAL HANDICAPS.
EQ
Now the only way I can interpret that is you're calling sexuality itself a
'handicap.
In your new definition you're saying there are handicaps applied to limit
our sexual expression. They are not the same thing.
Now, tell me what 'handicap' you're talking about.
> >> >Do not tar me with your disease -
>
> Andy, life is a disease that is 100 per cent fatal. We shall all die
> one day (if Christ doesn't return first).
No, try again. I dont have your delusions or sexual hangups. Dont go
telling me I do - you're going to have to wear your guilt and delusions
yourself.
> >No, you have personal problems because you're surrounded in a delusional
> >world. Your sexual hangups are just a small part of that problem.
>
> On the contrary, from my viewpoint, it is delusional to deny God or
> His creation. Your comment about sexual hangups is not worthy of
> reply.
Well I guess to the person who thinks he's Napolean, he'll think anyone who
doesn't think he's Napolean is deluded. All you have to do is demonstrate
your invisible friend exists and I can't call you delusional any more.
> >> that it appears to be you that, as a self defence mode, is attackative
> >> towards everybody.
> >
> >Is that a real word?
>
> The real world Andy contains both good and evil, God and Satan. The
> idea is to understand who is pulling the strings in our lives.
I think you missed the question.
> If you have a persecution syndrome you would go looking for trouble
> just as the JW's do and then they feel better as they get rejected and
> this reinforces their delusional system that they must be right as
> they are receiving persecution. Its a mean circle of abuse. Its hard
> to break it for a cult member and its hard to break it for a
> homosexual who carries guilt. But there is hope in Christ, if you
> desire that help.
It's interesting that what you're talking about is exactly what several
christians here started doing in the thread 'Homosexual activist tries to
silence christians'.
Now, when you talk about a persecution syndrome, would it entail feeling
someone always considered you fell short of their expectations? Would it
involve thinking that they're going to torture you forever?
> >> I suggest that some Spiritual guidance and
> >> perhaps a clearing of the guilt you retain through confession of your
> >> sins may help you to find peace again in your life.
> >
> >Now, tell me about this guilt. What is it I'm feeling guilty about?
>
> Perhaps if you have answered my above questions then I would be in a
> better place to answer these questions. ]
So in other words you're only hoping I'm feeling guilty, right? You have
no evidence of any guilt I'm feeling but just threw that in there in the
hope something would pop out? I can assure you I have no guilt in my life.
Now YOU on the other hand...
> >Tell me about your guilt. What do you feel guilty about?
>
> I feel guilty about mistreating people.I feel guilty about meeting
> verbal force with the same response. I feel guilty about not being the
> man that God calls me to be in all the circumstances. I feel guilty
> about not being able to get through to some people on this NG. I feel
> guilty whenever I notice that a woman is very beautiful and hardly
> ever notice the plain ones.(My spiritual advisor thinks I am being too
> hard on myself for this one) I think I have judged them on their
> outward appearance instead of what really counts. I feel guilty when a
> programe comes on TV and has sexual or vulgar references and I don't
> turn it off quick enough. I feel guilty that I am a bad witness to my
> faith, I FEEL GUILTY .....Yet, I repent of my guilt very often, before
> God and in the presence of one of His priests. I am blessed to here
> the words of absolution that Christ Himself gave to His Apostles. I am
> not worthy to hear those words prayed over me.
Yeesh! That is NOT a mentally healthy way to live your life. You are
demonstrating a very low self-esteem. If you are continually punishing
yourself for no good reason you're going to lead a very unfulfilled life.
Do you see why you need to construct the idea of a utopia after you die?
It's because your delusion gives yourself such a crap time while you're
alive. Lose the delusion, improve your self-esteem and live a powerful and
inspired life.
> Might I recommend the same for you.
You might recommend hacksawing my leg off if you like. Alternatively you
could come back to the real world.
Get well soon.
Andy B.
Julian Visch (T.F.)
> >I decided to monitor your posts to see if Andy did owe you an apology,
> >well from the last few posts it is apparent to me that you own him one.
> >To state that someone has a sexual handicap is just plain rude. If
> >you had as Andy suggested said "in my opinion" then that is not rude.
>
> Imagine this- coming from Julian V!!!!!
Meaning what exactly? Are you implying I have been rude to you?
When? What was it that I said that you found rude?
> Troy H - repentant sinner-
Julian - no sins to repent.
Julian Visch (T.F.)
>
> In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> I considered corresponding to you for the time it took to write my
> header. Now I have changed my mind.
I take it that you refuse to apologise, typical of some Christians
attitude that
they can never be in error as they are the followers of their true god.
Here is how you do it, type s-o-r-r-y one after the other, simple isn't
it.
Julian Visch (T.F.)
>
> In the Name of ther Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
You are aware that such headers are offensive to a lot of atheists?
You do realise you are conversing with atheists?
> thing than what they are compulsive about. I again recommend
> confession and spiritual guidance as an avenue out of this behaviour.
What a surprise.
> Andy, life is a disease that is 100 per cent fatal. We shall all die
> one day (if Christ doesn't return first).
Some of us intend to live for ever :>
> Andy, I must ask. Have you ever bee bashed for being a homosexual?
>
> Also Were you ever bashed/mistreated by Christians for being a
> homosexual?
>
> Also is your family Christian and have they rejected you due to your
> homosexuality.
>
> If these questions are too personal or you refuse to answer them thats
> cool with me. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
Why are you interested in the answers? So you can use them?
> If you have a persecution syndrome you would go looking for trouble
> just as the JW's do and then they feel better as they get rejected and
> this reinforces their delusional system that they must be right as
> they are receiving persecution. Its a mean circle of abuse. Its hard
> to break it for a cult member and its hard to break it for a
> homosexual who carries guilt. But there is hope in Christ, if you
> desire that help.
I see you have no problem in calling JW delusional but deny that you are
yourself.
> Perhaps if you have answered my above questions then I would be in a
> better place to answer these questions. ]
In other words you have theories on homosexuality that you wish to test.
> I feel guilty about mistreating people.I feel guilty about meeting
So you will apologise?
> verbal force with the same response. I feel guilty about not being the
> man that God calls me to be in all the circumstances. I feel guilty
> about not being able to get through to some people on this NG. I feel
> guilty whenever I notice that a woman is very beautiful and hardly
> ever notice the plain ones.(My spiritual advisor thinks I am being too
> hard on myself for this one) I think I have judged them on their
> outward appearance instead of what really counts. I feel guilty when a
> programe comes on TV and has sexual or vulgar references and I don't
> turn it off quick enough. I feel guilty that I am a bad witness to my
> faith, I FEEL GUILTY .....Yet, I repent of my guilt very often, before
> God and in the presence of one of His priests. I am blessed to here
> the words of absolution that Christ Himself gave to His Apostles. I am
> not worthy to hear those words prayed over me.
Sounds like you need to get a life and have a bad guilt complex. To feel
guilty
about everything is not normal, talk it over with your ministers is it
normal. If it is normal in your church then I suspect it being forced
into
you at your church. When I was young I had a terrible guilt complex
which
meant even the tiniest mistake I would feel terrible guilt for weeks or
even
months. If going to confession relieves you of this guilt then by all
means
do so as I know how hard it can be to live with a guilt complex. I found
a
way to deal with it, you seem to use religion to deal with it but you
seem
no better. As a suggestion try listening to the Billy Joel song "You're
only
human" that song was written by him to help those who are consumed by
unrealistic
feelings of guilt.
> Might I recommend the same for you.
I no longer feel guilty as I know I am only human
Andy Bearsley
> I notice that you snipped the following questions from my last post
> and did not answer them or mention them at all:
<laugh> Indeed I didn't make mention of them. The reason is I was seeing
how much intergrity and honesty you have. You said:
> If these questions are too personal or you refuse to answer them thats
> cool with me. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
I chose not to answer them. Your reply:
> It is cool that you refused to be opne about these matters, however, I
> now feel that without you being honest and open about your guilt that
> I am no longer able to be of service. I therefore wish you adieu.
Obviously it's not 'cool'. Further, I wsa being honest, and I have no
guilt. Lastly, I think the service you are no longer being to me is simply
as an example of someone deeply ensnared in their delusional system. But
hey, there are plenty of other good examples.
Chris Ho-Stuart
> In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
> Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
>
> Dear Andy,
>
> and did not answer them or mention them at all:
>
>
> Also Were you ever bashed/mistreated by Christians for being a
> homosexual?
>
> Also is your family Christian and have they rejected you due to your
> homosexuality.
>
> If these questions are too personal or you refuse to answer them thats
> cool with me. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
>
> now feel that without you being honest and open about your guilt that
> I am no longer able to be of service. I therefore wish you adieu.
Dear Greg,
Best you hear this from someone other than Andy....
I do not know how Andy will react to these questions, but I would
consider them questionable in the context of this fairly
adversarial debate.
I certainly insist that any refusal by Andy to answer must not
be taken in any negative sense, such as failing to be honest or
open. If Andy chooses to share such very personal information, that
is one thing, On the other hand, any suggestion that his credibility
is in any way compromised by failing to answer is not reasonable.
Likewise insisting that futher debate can only take place in the
context of answers to these questions is unreasonable.
I further think that your questions conceal a subtle trap. I do not
think you consciously intend such a trap but I think it is there
all the same.
Suppose Andy answers *yes*. This will be taken by many folks as
suggesting that his focus on ills done to homosexuals is driven
by individual personal suffering and not a general objective
appreciation of the whole picture.
Suppose Andy answers *no*. This will be taken by many folks as
suggesting that he is exaggerating the whole problem.
Suppose Andy objects to the questions. Given that they are phrased
fairly mildly, this will be taken by many folks as suggesting that
Andy is not discussing reasonably.
Cheers -- Chris Ho-Stuart
Julian S Visch
|> Julian Visch (T.F.) <j.v...@math.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
|> > "St.Athanasius" wrote:
|> > >
|> > > Amen. Peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
|> >
|>
|>
|> It's pretty much a "sig".
Sigs are usually kept at the bottom which is where he also has a sig.
I would call it an intro and I realise that he feels the need to preach.
I just ignore them, but I thought I would mention it to him so that he
is aware that they can cause offense.
St.Athanasius
Amen. Peace and grace of ther Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Chris,
You always seem to bring a modicom of sanity to
sometimes intense discussions.
You said:
>I do not know how Andy will react to these questions, but I would
>consider them questionable in the context of this fairly
>adversarial debate.
I am not trying to be adverse as my posts attests. But the questions
were genuine.
>
>I certainly insist that any refusal by Andy to answer must not
>be taken in any negative sense, such as failing to be honest or
>open. If Andy chooses to share such very personal information, that
>is one thing, On the other hand, any suggestion that his credibility
>is in any way compromised by failing to answer is not reasonable.
>Likewise insisting that futher debate can only take place in the
>context of answers to these questions is unreasonable.
I will not consider Andy in any more a negative way for his refusal to
answer them.
>
>I further think that your questions conceal a subtle trap. I do not
>think you consciously intend such a trap but I think it is there
>all the same.
The questions were to show that there are underlying painful motives
driving his attackative posts against Christianity-thats all. Indeed
if he had been open and honest about them perhaps we all could have
discussed them in an unattackative manner. But alas that opportunity
has now passed. As for being too personal-I do not think they were as
he has publically announced his homosexuality and discussed homosexual
sex at great lengths as well as has asked others herein some pretty
personal questions and made some strong statements. I simply desired
to go to the root of the problem as I see it-I could have been wrong,
but now I will not know. Anyway I respect his right to refuse to
answer, but he must respect my right as now wishing to leave this
discourse with him.
>
>Suppose Andy answers *yes*. This will be taken by many folks as
>suggesting that his focus on ills done to homosexuals is driven
>by individual personal suffering and not a general objective
>appreciation of the whole picture.
Which is exactly what I perceive his hate campaign to be motivated
by.....
>
>Suppose Andy answers *no*. This will be taken by many folks as
>suggesting that he is exaggerating the whole problem.
If the answer was no to those questions then I believe he would have
answered immediately without any delay. Unfortunately the question is
like asking (which I never would nowadays) whether a young lady is a
virgin or not. If she was she would immediately say so, if not, then
she would act offended and hedge the answer or blush etc. Now I know
there will be exceptions to this 'rule' but generally you can say most
will fall into the two camps I have said. The same with those
questions of mine. Once they were asked, in my mind a refusal to
answer is already an answer for me. I understand this is not a science
and I am not gurranteeing this.
>
>Suppose Andy objects to the questions. Given that they are phrased
>fairly mildly, this will be taken by many folks as suggesting that
>Andy is not discussing reasonably.
I do not believe that he is Chris. I will say that in this thread I
have not been attacking him or being negative against homosexuality
and have attempted to undertake a discussion without sliding into the
abyss of abuive posting. Now I have been challenged a number of times
and have let them go. I hope that you can see this. I have been only
interested in getting to know Andy through this discussion and I think
that I now understand him and his reasons more for why he does what he
does. In any case if he does not wish to play ball anymore, thats okay
and I can leave in peace.
Andy Bearsley
> The questions were to show that there are underlying painful motives
> driving his attackative posts against Christianity-thats all.
So tell me what your underlying painful motives are for needing to have an
invisible friend.
I've explained before why I'm in this group, but I'm happy to explain
again.
I followed a religious poster out of nz.soc.queer into nz.soc.religion where
he was cross-posting. I decided he needed to be educated about how his
preaching was getting gays killed (as evidenced in the news articles I
frequently post). Later another christian started cross-posting from
aus.religion, so I followed him back there. Should someone from a US
religious group cross post several times to nz.soc.religion, no doubt I'll
follow them out as well...
The reason I'm 'attacking' christians is to demonstrate how they're
attacking gays and how that is engendering hate against gays. I'm probably
not going to change any christians here, but I'm raising awareness of the
problem and education always works toward a solution.
> Which is exactly what I perceive his hate campaign to be motivated
> by.....
Bzzzt! Wrong again.
> I have been only
> interested in getting to know Andy through this discussion and I think
> that I now understand him and his reasons more for why he does what he
> does. In any case if he does not wish to play ball anymore, thats okay
> and I can leave in peace.
Actually you've been telling me about me. You've been telling me I have a
sexual handicap, that I sin, that I have been neither open nor honest,
that I exhibit the symptoms of a compulsive Syndrome - mental instability,
that I am delusional for challenging the existence of your invisible friend,
that I have guilt, and that I am "attackative".
Can you explain to me how the above is not an attack on me personally, and
how it's all an effort to get to know me better?
St Athanasius, you are deluding yourself. Take a look at what you are
ACTUALLY saying in the world outside your own head.
Julian S Visch
<Snipped>
Boy you can be a real jerk at times. It is people like yourself whom
create hostility towards Christians because of your offensive behaviour.
Go away and come back when you can be civil.
Andy Bearsley
> If you have a persecution syndrome you would go looking for trouble
> just as the JW's do and then they feel better as they get rejected and
> this reinforces their delusional system that they must be right as
> they are receiving persecution. Its a mean circle of abuse. Its hard
> to break it for a cult member and its hard to break it for a
> homosexual who carries guilt. But there is hope in Christ, if you
> desire that help.
Ah... you mean like this:-
SQ
By a narrow vote of 216 - 210 on June 17, the U.S. House of Representatives
turned back a bill that would have blocked the Department of Justice (DOJ)
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention from developing and
distributing to schools the publication "Healing the Hate: A National Bias
Crime Prevention Curriculum for Middle Schools." Representative Mark Souder
(R-IN) had introduced the Consequences for Juvenile Offenders Act (HR 1501),
which included a prohibition against the DOJ producing materials which would
"discriminate against, denigrate or otherwise undermine the religious or
moral beliefs" of any person involved in other programs authorized by the
bill, including parents of children in school-based programs.
Supported by Jerry Falwell as well as Lou Sheldon's Traditional Values
Coalition, this measure was designed to eliminate anti-homophobia training
Falwell charged would constitute "a direct and aggressive attack on Biblical
Christianity" and would be "used to indoctrinate the young" and "promote
anti-Christian bigotry."
EQ
These durned christians who think the world is persecuting them. Seems
teaching tolerance of gays is equivalent to teaching intolerance of
religion.
St Athanasius I'm really thankful you point out the mental instability
associated with these syndromes.