Lesbians Double-Dipping Benefits?
David Herkt
(that is sarcasm, folks) exoses lesbians as potential wefare bludgers
because they can double-dip for child-support. The logic is that
same-sex relationships are not recognised by law, so that if you are a
lesbian couple you can claim two lots of domestic purposes benefits per
couple, instead of a smaller single benefit or a smaller couple benefit
for heterosexuals.
This logic means that gay and lesbian couples can also claim extra
benefits in the area of income support. Whereas heterosexual defacto
couples have to declare their partners income (if one of them is
employed) with corresponding reduction in benefit, gay and lesbian
couples CANNOT do so. I know someone, part of a gay couple, who was
unemployed for six months. As a couple they basically needed something
like a $75 top-up a week from Income Support. The unemployed gay man
filled in his form, noted his partner's income etc and it was torn out
by Income Support because it was not relevant. Which indeed, under law,
it wasn't. Consequence: he got $215 a week instead of $75.
Now really, people and the Herald can't have it both ways. If you don't
recognise us and our relationships you cannot whinge when we get what
the rules and regulations say we HAVE to get.
Mind you, it would be typical of NZ if gay and lesbians got their couple
status recognised under law just to stop us getting extra benefits...
D.
Squirrel
wrote:
My partner and I unfortunately had a few months on the same benefit,
we got too different benefits, partner not recognised, earnings not
mention thus.
Squirrel
Graeme Butler
daf
David Herkt wrote:
> Mind you, it would be typical of NZ if gay and lesbians got their couple
> status recognised under law just to stop us getting extra benefits...
>
> D.
Very true. Who's for a sweepstake on how long it takes our "pro-gay" PM
and former minister of Social Welfare to jump on the same-sex marriage
band-wagon?
David
David McLoughlin
> Who's for a sweepstake on how long it takes our "pro-gay" PM
> and former minister of Social Welfare to jump on the same-sex marriage
> band-wagon?
Um, so what would be wrong if she did? I thought that was what the gay
community was asking for. It even got to the Court of Appeal.
Why is Jenny Shipley being attacked for attending the parade, but not
Helen Clark? What's wrong with them both attending? They seem to me to
be both genuine in their support. Besides, it's a b;loody good night
out. There are many gays who support private enterprise, just as many
support socialism. Why are those who support socialism the only ones
made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
David McLoughlin
Auckland New Zealand
"Oh my god, they’ve killed Kenny!"
Chris&Dean
>This morning the Herald in its continuing build-up to the Hero
...continuing desperation to increase dwindling circulation. I lost whatever
respect I had left for the Herald with that crap ad.
And the headline for the whole child support thing..."Lesbian Must Pay Child
Support"...talk about distortion of what the story was actually about. The
headline makes it sound like a husband ended up with the kids.
C
Squirrel
<tauranga...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>I think the hero parade sux, and I don't mean it in a nasty way
>
>
>
never seen sucking on camera, sure plenty goes on at the after do tho
:)
Squirrel
Graeme Butler
Squirrel wrote in message <36c3d992...@nntp.netsource.co.nz>...
valle...@my-dejanews.com
David McLoughlin <dav...@REMOVEiprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Why is Jenny Shipley being attacked for attending the parade, but not
> Helen Clark? What's wrong with them both attending? They seem to me to
> be both genuine in their support. Besides, it's a b;loody good night
> out. There are many gays who support private enterprise, just as many
> support socialism. Why are those who support socialism the only ones
> made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
as far as I'm aware I (Liz) am the only one who complained about Shipley. I
was by far outnumbered by those who were pleased by her support. I wasn't
complaining about her attendance, as I would be happy if everyone in the
entire country went. I was saying that I found her comments in the hero
booklet hypocritical in supposedly valueing me simply for being gay whilst
actively going against me and my views in her governing. I find her attitude
patronizing. I focussed on Shipley because she is the one who has been
instrumental in policies I do not agree with - not Helen Clark. Now please,
do not put me in the box of being "left"or "labour" as you put me under the
label socialist. My comments were also in the context of the unease I have
with consumerist aspects of hero (e.g. some of it's sponsors I consider to be
sexist etc). I know that it is a struggle however with funding etc and that
it is probably impossible to be rigourously consistent in all areas at once,
especially considering the diversity of the gay community (even though at
times I think diversity is most definately NOT encouraged, including some
aspects of hero). Though myself I don't like an us (gays) and them
(straights) mentality but I think hero kind of blends everyone together
anyway in some ways. anyway before this turns into a ramble, I just wanted to
tell you David M that it was only me that attacked Shipley's support and that
I am NOT part of nor do I feel welcomed by a "PC gay elite". The term PC as
abuse is often a pathetically thin veiled excuse for dismissing all kinds of
different ideas and bundling them all together and to one side. If there iis
a gay elite, it's probably not even so very (what you would call) PC.
-Liz.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Squirrel
<tauranga...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>But do lesbians double dip on stage, and if so how?
>Squirrel wrote in message <36c3d992...@nntp.netsource.co.nz>...
>>On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:43:12 +1300, "Graeme Butler"
>><tauranga...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>I think the hero parade sux, and I don't mean it in a nasty way
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>never seen sucking on camera, sure plenty goes on at the after do tho
>>:)
>>
>>
>>Squirrel
>
>
ask your wife cos it isnt bridge she goes to every tueday
Squirrel
David Herkt
> Why are those who support socialism the only ones
> made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
Ignore him, DH, Ignore him DH, Don't even CLICK on his posts in future.
And, Scott, you will be pleased to know you have been made unwelcome
here, and David Farrar, and Andy Bearsley...
D.
--
******************************************
David Herkt
dhe...@ihug.co.nz
"on the infinite waves of skin smelly and crushed and light and
absorbed"
- Frank O'Hara
David Herkt
>
> David McLoughlin wrote:
>
> > Why are those who support socialism the only ones
> > made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
>
> Ignore him, DH, Ignore him DH, Don't even CLICK on his posts in future.
> And, Scott, you will be pleased to know you have been made unwelcome
> here, and David Farrar, and Andy Bearsley...
And Paul Sherriff, Head of The Hero Trust, whose bare rump can be seen
on the big Hero poster, WAS John Bank's Press Secretary....Don't think
he feels unwelcome...
D.
DPF
in <36C409...@ihug.co.nz>:
Paul was also Aiontonette Beck for those with memories.
DPF
________________________________________________________________________
<david at farrar dot com>
http://www.dpf.ac.nz/usenet/nz
DPF
valle...@my-dejanews.com wrote: in
<7a0u4p$ovn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>:
>as far as I'm aware I (Liz) am the only one who complained about Shipley. I
>was by far outnumbered by those who were pleased by her support. I wasn't
>complaining about her attendance, as I would be happy if everyone in the
>entire country went. I was saying that I found her comments in the hero
>booklet hypocritical in supposedly valueing me simply for being gay whilst
>actively going against me and my views in her governing. I find her attitude
>patronizing. I focussed on Shipley because she is the one who has been
>instrumental in policies I do not agree with - not Helen Clark.
For those interested an interview with Mrs Shipley on Hero is
http://www.xtra.co.nz/hero/jennyshipley.html.
BABY...@manawatu.gen.nz
On 1999-02-12 tauranga...@clear.net.nz said:
>Newsgroups: nz.soc.queer,nz.general
>I think the hero parade sux, and I don't mean it in a nasty way
WELL EXCUSE ME FOR TURNING CANADIAN BUT, EH EH EH ?.
BABYMASH.
Glenn Fletcher - http://members.tripod.com/~Babymash/ (NZ MUSIC)
MY NEW LIMITED EDITION CD-70 Mins Money Back If You Hate It :).
Net-Tamer V 1.10 Beta - Test Drive
David Herkt
>
> as far as I'm aware I (Liz) am the only one who complained about Shipley. I
> was by far outnumbered by those who were pleased by her support. I wasn't
> complaining about her attendance, as I would be happy if everyone in the
> entire country went. I was saying that I found her comments in the hero
> booklet hypocritical in supposedly valueing me simply for being gay whilst
> actively going against me and my views in her governing. I find her attitude
> patronizing. I focussed on Shipley because she is the one who has been
> do not put me in the box of being "left"or "labour" as you put me under the
> label socialist. My comments were also in the context of the unease I have
> with consumerist aspects of hero (e.g. some of it's sponsors I consider to be
> sexist etc). I know that it is a struggle however with funding etc and that
> it is probably impossible to be rigourously consistent in all areas at once,
> especially considering the diversity of the gay community (even though at
> times I think diversity is most definately NOT encouraged, including some
> aspects of hero). Though myself I don't like an us (gays) and them
> (straights) mentality but I think hero kind of blends everyone together
> anyway in some ways. anyway before this turns into a ramble, I just wanted to
> tell you David M that it was only me that attacked Shipley's support and that
> I am NOT part of nor do I feel welcomed by a "PC gay elite". The term PC as
> abuse is often a pathetically thin veiled excuse for dismissing all kinds of
> different ideas and bundling them all together and to one side. If there iis
> a gay elite, it's probably not even so very (what you would call) PC.
Boy, Liz, you packed 'em in there.
For the record, my opinion:
1: the dignitaries attending are well, dignitaries attending. Sort of
like the parents who agree to stay upstairs in the bedroom while the
teenagers have the party in the basement. They're also parked right down
the end of Ponsonby Road in a grandstand and their presence is vestigal
at best. You are right, the blending effect of Hero takes place
elsewhere.
2: like you I do have problems with the commercialisation of queer
cultures, but I can see the benefits of it, when I'm feeling optimistic,
in what I perceive as a possible blurring of old barriers. However I
dislike the commodification of queerness that is inherent in it, because
I believe we are all more than just being commodities. Generally.
However I am beginning to consider David McLoughlin is just a brand-name
for a loose assemblage of erroneous facts and unconsidered opinions
masquerading as a person. So maybe he is a commodity. Anyway there is
nothing worse than having observed the commodification of one's sexual
preference over the last 30 years. Unfortunately, living in a capitalist
world, this fact DOES signal our increased acceptability, and our
acheivement of some equality. Me? I never wanted to be equal to them. I
wanted to be better.
3: There is no real unified elite to the queer community. Once I spoke
to a 15 year old fa'afafine and she wanted the name and the telephone
number of the boss of the gay community to make a complaint and ask him
to do something about it for her. Regretfully I had to say we had no
boss. I'm not sure we have an elite either.We do have some people whose
opinions get published more often than others but they just have big
mouths and arethe one's on the media lists. They are not representative
in thetrue sense of the word. Nuh, its a really diverse community and it
is impossible to ascribe one opinion to it.
D.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> David McLoughlin wrote:
>
> > Why are those who support socialism the only ones
> > made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
>
> Ignore him, DH, Ignore him DH, Don't even CLICK on his posts in future.
> And, Scott, you will be pleased to know you have been made unwelcome
> here, and David Farrar, and Andy Bearsley...
This newsgroup is largely apolitical. In my own experience, I did have
some hesitation in posting here initially given that I support National and
am an activist in that party. But I have been made to feel welcome, and
have actually made some good friends through here -- many of whom think my
politics are destructive and
However, to some extent David McLoughlin has a point. There was an
interesting in article in issue 33 of 'The Free Radical' (yes I read that)
about how the gay community tends to presuppose politics of socialism and
shuts out people from a conservative or neoliberal background. He reaches
the conclusion that this is changing, and increasingly we are saying the
gay community embrace this diversity within itself, and more and more gay
people saying 'yeah, I'm a capitalist -- get used to it!!', which I
personally think is encouraging.
I do not agree entirely with the author of this article, however I think he
does make a number of useful observations. I would encourage everyone here
who is interested in politics to have a look at it. And as David Herkt has
alluded to, I have been pleased with the welcome I get here, and I would
hope my politics are treated by the group as largely irrelevant.
Scott.
Brazen
David Herkt wrote in message <36C410...@ihug.co.nz>...
>valle...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>3: There is no real unified elite to the queer community. Once I spoke
>to a 15 year old fa'afafine and she wanted the name and the telephone
>number of the boss of the gay community to make a complaint and ask him
>to do something about it for her. Regretfully I had to say we had no
>boss.
I'll apply for the position...pick me, pick me....
(If only to get a seat up there with the other dignartaries at Hero)
Brazen
David Herkt
> However, to some extent David McLoughlin has a point. There was an
> interesting in article in issue 33 of 'The Free Radical' (yes I read that)
> about how the gay community tends to presuppose politics of socialism and
> shuts out people from a conservative or neoliberal background. He reaches
> the conclusion that this is changing, and increasingly we are saying the
> gay community embrace this diversity within itself, and more and more gay
> people saying 'yeah, I'm a capitalist -- get used to it!!', which I
> personally think is encouraging.
Lindsay Perigo asked me to pass on the following article about six weeks
ago. It never seemed to fit anywhere before, but Scott, for you...
And needless to say, being a PC chardonnay swilling pinko-liberal, I am
very dubious about it. Lindsay drinks reds, incidentally. Also I dislike
the internalised homophobia of the piece.
The article comes from Free Radical.
Rand Among the "Queers"
David C. Adams
He is an honest young man. Though he does not attend church as
regularly as he could, it is often because he is busy finishing homework
or pursuing various extracurricular activities. In his last year of
high school, he has dedicated himself to success, has received the
highest marks in each class, and has already been accepted to several
top universities to study mathematics. His father is equally proud of
his son for being a star football player for his school, and pleased
that the boy is quite popular with the female students. This young man
has struggled to win, to prove himself. But in the late afternoon he
sits alone in his room, or takes long walks, and wonders at the
tightness in his stomach, and at why he feels so fundamentally wrong.
Most religions and the majority of cultures would have it that this
young man is fundamentally flawed, that he has more Original Sin than
most, and that in order to redeem himself he will have to deny and
disown a fundamental part of who he is. Unlike the majority of
individuals, he is homosexual.
Homosexuality is a favourite point of moralising for many people,
leaving a significant minority of the human species despised,
mistrusted, or condemned. Certainly this is most often packaged with
religion, an institution Objectivists are quick to criticise. Yet many
Objectivists have not been innocent of similar irrationality as regards
homosexuality. In a lecture given at the Ford Hall Forum in 1971, Ayn
Rand herself condemned homosexuality as "immoral" and "disgusting,"
claiming it is the result of "flaws, corruptions, errors, [and]
unfortunate premises." With such vehement damnation, shall Objectivism
thus share space with religion?
Homosexuality describes an orientation toward the same gender in sexual
and romantic attraction. Just as a heterosexual has deep, basic
feelings toward certain members of the opposite sex, so a homosexual has
the same feelings toward those of his own gender. Whatever the causes
of sexual orientation, it is clear that such a fundamental response is
not a matter of choice. With genetic and physiological evidence now
accumulating which points to sexual orientation being determined before
birth or soon thereafter, it is quite doubtful that a person can
significantly alter his orientation. If homosexuality as such is not a
matter of choice, it cannot be a moral issue. One would hope Rand
merely did not understand the issue, for the woman who proclaimed
homosexuality "immoral" also pointed out that "a sin without volition is
a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is
outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality"
(Atlas Shrugged).
Thus, Objectivists should be at the forefront of condemning the
condemnation of gays and lesbians as such, just as we speak out against
racism and collectivism in general. Yet there is more that the
Objectivist movement should address on this issue.
It becomes a simple choice, frightening in its starkness. Either the
young man must dismiss his religion, which holds him to be
not-quite-human, or he must deny a crucial part of himself. With
courage and integrity, he decides that his self-esteem is ultimately
important, and breaks away from his church and the community which would
condemn him. He finds himself free. Yet without the morality of the
church, he faces a vacuum, a frightening loss of meaning.
Most gays and lesbians face a severe dilemma when confronting their own
identities. Very often, the structural support provided by family,
religion, and culture does not allow for deviance from a heterosexual
norm. When, in an act of moral heroism, a young gay person re-examines
these assumptions and, with the courage to stand against powerful
institutions, chooses not to evade a fundamental part of himself, he
rightly rejects that part of his religion or culture which proclaims him
less than human. However, more often than not, the rest of the moral
framework is discarded as well - after all, if such morality has no
place for homosexuality, then perhaps morality itself has no place. Yet
because each individual needs a standard by which to make choices and
live effectively, this leaves a void - and the lingering question of
what will fill that void. Searching for validation and moral purpose,
gays and lesbians often find themselves lured by the cultural and
political left.
When, late into a night which is too cold, he tells his mother his
secret, she trembles and weeps and will not look him in the eye. She
tells her husband the next day, and he threatens to disown his son
entirely if he does not leave the house immediately, returning only when
he has fully repented. Wild with confusion and pain, the young man
escapes to the city, where he finds an active community which does not
condemn him. He discovers dance clubs and political rallies, a world in
which being gay is the norm, and for a while feels, at last, accepted
and safe. But when he searches for more than empty sex and superficial
socialising, when he begins to question the subversive ideas he is told
he must accept, he discovers he is caught in a new conformity, a "party
line" as rigid and suffocating as the church he has left behind.
The gay writer Tony Kushner, author of the epic two-part play, Angels in
America, is reported as saying that the term "gay Marxist" should be
redundant. As a voice of the elite gay subculture, Kushner represents
the same contingent which sees homosexuality as an act of subverting
Western capitalist culture, advancing leftist agendas, and contributing
to an orgy of post-modern irrationality and relativism. Indeed, the
radical gay subculture, flowing from the gay ghettos of large cities and
marked by ironic conformity to stereotypes, is fully entwined with
leftist ideology.
As indication of this, and typical of irrational philosophies, language,
a realm of precision and meaning, is attacked. The epithet "queer" is
adopted as a label of solidarity, supposedly to defuse the word, but in
reality it is used as part of broader tactics of shock and subversion.
The gay subculture celebrates "gay pride," thus redefining "pride" not
as positive regard for one's accomplishments, but instead as based on an
attribute over which one has no control. This leads to the belief that
"if it is gay, it is good" - regardless of any other standards - and
that anyone who criticises the revealed truth of the subculture party
line, including other gays, is stricken with homophobia. Such
collectivist "groupthink" is a hallmark of today's left. Even gays and
lesbians outside of this "radical" minority tend to be actively
supportive of leftist policies such as affirmative action or
environmental regulation.
And why not? When, as most people do, a gay person sees his political
choices as divided into two camps, and one of them is filled with
vociferous religious bigots openly declaring homosexuals a scourge, the
left is a default choice. Of course, it helps that the left actively
courts gays and lesbians as part of its larger rhetoric of
egalitarianism and "tolerance." Thus many gays start as "single issue"
leftists, and soon are cheering radical environmental groups,
multiculturalism, and New Age charlatans - as if this were a natural
extension of being gay. The moral vacuum remaining once religion is
rejected is easily filled - by default - with the "package deal" of
leftist post-modernism.
Must this be the case? Shall the provision of visibility and morality
for homosexuals be left to nihilistic statists? A pathetic situation
this would be, considering there is a robust, rational philosophy which,
properly applied, would reject the condemnation of persons based on
sexual orientation. Further, it is a philosophy which explicitly
defends the virtues involved in "coming out" as gay - namely, honesty,
integrity, courage, and pride. It is a philosophy celebrating the
individual, one who challenges stale social convention, rejecting the
irrationality of religion and bigotry. And it is a philosophy which
affirms the sanctity of sexuality and profound romance based on shared
values. The philosophy which should be poised to reach gays and
lesbians is Objectivism.
Already among some gay intellectuals there is a movement toward
rationality and a growing criticism of the gay left. These individuals
recognise that the leftist gay subculture is a vocal minority within a
minority, and that its ideology should not dominate by default.
Thinkers such as Jonathan Rauch, Andrew Sullivan, former editor of The
New Republic, and David Boaz of the Cato Institute, have rejected the
notion that being gay means accepting a leftist agenda, and have offered
libertarian alternatives. Beyond Queer: Challenging the Gay Left
Orthodoxy, edited by Bruce Bawer, is a collection of such dissent, and
the number and quality of the included essays is an encouraging
indication that many gays seek a more reasonable, "grown-up" philosophy.
But the best of such philosophies, Objectivism, is still in its youth,
and has not fully cleansed itself of non-essential prejudices stemming
from Ayn Rand's personal opinions. Despite a significant number of
openly gay Objectivists, and a larger number of Objectivists who rightly
regard homosexuality as outside moral judgement, the philosophy as a
cultural milieu barely acknowledges the subject. Rand herself virtually
ignored the topic, and when she did comment on it, it was with a
moralising ignorance. Certain "orthodox" followers of Rand express
similar attitudes. Here is a premise which must be examined, lest we
keep the contradictions of judging only what is volitional - and
condemning homosexuality; or valuing romantic love - so long as it is
heterosexual.
As Rand's ideas continue to ascend in visibility, gays and lesbians will
be increasingly aware of her philosophy as an alternative to dusty
religions and shop-worn socialism. But in the chorus of voices
clamouring for ideological adherents, will Objectivism appear as
alienating as the religious right, leaving the left another victory by
default? Or shall Objectivists recognise an entire segment of the
population for whom a philosophy of reason and individual liberty would
have great appeal? As individuals who uphold sexuality and romantic
fulfilment as of great value, Objectivists should not shy from
acknowledging the rich spectrum of sexual orientation among human
beings. More than making broad statements about the irrationality of
racism and bigotry, Objectivists should state clearly that sexual
orientation has no bearing on the merit of an individual, and that
condemnation of gays and lesbians has no place in a rational philosophy.
Again, the young man is caught questioning a culture from which he is
painfully alienated. He seeks direction, and those around him claim
that morality consists of sexual self-indulgence. He seeks achievement,
but is told that this is a prejudice of Western oppression. He seeks
profound romantic connection, yet those around him are more concerned
with wearing the right outfit than defining and pursuing values. The
subculture which seemed to give him identity gives him nothing now, and
he begins the difficult process of defining himself as an individual.
As a foundation, he keeps as sacred the notion that happiness is
possible to him, that it is he alone who can achieve it, and that he is
worthy of attaining it.
It is not the statist left which is the natural ally of gays and
lesbians - but a philosophy which celebrates individuality, achievement,
and joy. Given the chance, the philosophy chosen by this young man -
and countless others like him - will be: Objectivism. Let us welcome
him.
D.
David Herkt
>
> David Herkt wrote in message <36C410...@ihug.co.nz>...
> >valle...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >3: There is no real unified elite to the queer community. Once I spoke
> >to a 15 year old fa'afafine and she wanted the name and the telephone
> >number of the boss of the gay community to make a complaint and ask him
> >to do something about it for her. Regretfully I had to say we had no
> >boss.
>
> I'll apply for the position...pick me, pick me....
Well, you've got the name for it so really you were probably destined
for this role from birth.
I can just hear Paul Holmes: "Now, Gaylene, what is all this business,
this hoo-ha, this...this...shenanigans about the Hero Parade. I mean,
what, yes, what do you, as Gaylene, as Boss Of The Gay Community, think
about it? People want to know, have a right to know. Do you think
anything about it at all? Or do you not?"
David (who wants to grow up to script-write for Paul Holmes)
Brazen
David Herkt wrote in message <36C49B...@ihug.co.nz>...
David, I can just picture you as you typed that, getting into character...
head jiggling and nodding, furtive glances left and right....
I dont think it would be a good career move though. Script writing for Paul
Holmes wouldnt exactly be well paid, when you think of it in terms of words
per dollar, better off writing for someone who is a little more concise with
what they say. That rules out politicians, although you'd benefit from the
amount of times they repeat themselves - cut & paste would be a godsend.
And you'd be alright with someone like Winston Peters, since he can't seem
to string a complete sentence together - very economical.
Brazen
daf
David McLoughlin wrote:
> Why are those who support socialism the only ones
> made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
>
In my ignorance, I didn't realise this was the case. Thank you for
pointing it out.
As for an answer to your question, well I'm obviously too stupid to know
it. Perhaps some wise, omniscient and perceptive guest can step in and
tell us.
David
Kerry
<scott....@national.org.nz> wrote:
>
>
>David Herkt wrote:
>
>> David McLoughlin wrote:
>>
>> > Why are those who support socialism the only ones
>> > made welcome on this newsgroup or by the PC gay elite in general?
>>
>> Ignore him, DH, Ignore him DH, Don't even CLICK on his posts in future.
>> And, Scott, you will be pleased to know you have been made unwelcome
>> here, and David Farrar, and Andy Bearsley...
>
>This newsgroup is largely apolitical. In my own experience, I did have
>some hesitation in posting here initially given that I support National and
>am an activist in that party. But I have been made to feel welcome, and
>have actually made some good friends through here -- many of whom think my
>politics are destructive and
It's cos you are just so cute Scott
K
Squirrel
<scott....@national.org.nz> wrote:
>Now I feel like some kind of kitten that everybody is playing with at a party!
>
>Scott.
>
eeeew, but I put gloves on cos you are blue ;)))
Squirrel
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> Scott Higham wrote:
>
> > However, to some extent David McLoughlin has a point. There was an
> > interesting in article in issue 33 of 'The Free Radical' (yes I read that)
> > about how the gay community tends to presuppose politics of socialism and
> > shuts out people from a conservative or neoliberal background. He reaches
> > the conclusion that this is changing, and increasingly we are saying the
> > gay community embrace this diversity within itself, and more and more gay
> > people saying 'yeah, I'm a capitalist -- get used to it!!', which I
> > personally think is encouraging.
>
> Lindsay Perigo asked me to pass on the following article about six weeks
> ago. It never seemed to fit anywhere before, but Scott, for you...
Thanks David,
This is interesting. Does he regularly pass on articles to you? The web edition
did not include it iirc, and its only because I subscribe to it myself that I got
to read it.
> And needless to say, being a PC chardonnay swilling pinko-liberal, I am
> very dubious about it. Lindsay drinks reds, incidentally. Also I dislike
> the internalised homophobia of the piece.
How is it relevant that he drinks reds? Am I missing something?
> The article comes from Free Radical.
<snip>
Upon re-reading the article, and in light of your comments, it made a bit more
sense to me. My view is that while it raises a valid concern, arguably it
overstates the problem a wee bit (but I couldnt really find the internalised
homophobia I am afraid!) -- and as I have said previously, my own experience has
not been negative at all.
However, my experience in this community so far has in fact been quite limited.
But believe me I will be the first to let you know should I start feeling shut
out!
Cheers,
Scott.
Scott Higham
David Herkt
> > Lindsay Perigo asked me to pass on the following article about six weeks
> > ago. It never seemed to fit anywhere before, but Scott, for you...
>
>
> This is interesting. Does he regularly pass on articles to you?
Not often, because well, we agree to disagree. Occaisionally he still
tries.
> > And needless to say, being a PC chardonnay swilling pinko-liberal, I am
> > very dubious about it. Lindsay drinks reds, incidentally. Also I dislike
> > the internalised homophobia of the piece.
>
> How is it relevant that he drinks reds? Am I missing something?
Chardonnay, that classic PC socialist drink is a white wine, Scott, my
dear. Him not drinking it, is a statement I feel. It wasn't a good joke
though. You are forgiven for asking about it.
>
> > The article comes from Free Radical.
>
> <snip>
>
> Upon re-reading the article, and in light of your comments, it made a bit more
> sense to me. My view is that while it raises a valid concern, arguably it
> overstates the problem a wee bit (but I couldnt really find the internalised
> homophobia I am afraid!)
Come on look at that beginning...and stuff like this:
"When, late into a night which is too cold, he tells his mother his
secret, she trembles and weeps and will not look him in the eye. She
tells her husband the next day, and he threatens to disown his son
entirely if he does not leave the house immediately, returning only when
he has fully repented. Wild with confusion and pain, the young man
escapes to the city, where he finds an active community which does not
condemn him. He discovers dance clubs and political rallies, a world in
which being gay is the norm, and for a while feels, at last, accepted
and safe. But when he searches for more than empty sex and superficial
socialising, when he begins to question the subversive ideas he is told
he must accept, he discovers he is caught in a new conformity, a "party
line" as rigid and suffocating as the church he has left behind."
I mean why couldn't his mom say "That's nice, Daniel. Cherie told me her
son is gay last week. He's a nice boy. Why don't you invite him to the
bach next weekend" after he told her, nuh, she has to CRY on that
awfully cold night. His Dad can't say, "Good on, you son, you'll need
some extraallowance to go to all those over-priced gay bars, he's an
extra $50 aweek" he has to threaten to disown him and thrown him out
into that too cold night. How come he gets wild with confusion and pain,
why can't he be just happy with the way his parent's took it his telling
them and vaguue around watching Tv and thinking of Cherie's son who he
remembers as being vaguely cute. How come he gets empty sex, why isn't
it fulfilling. I mean I have had good sex and bad sex, but none of it
was empty. And I mean, look when he's out there amid all those
dance-clubs and political rallies, why is the conversation so damned
superficial, how come he never gets to meet good conversationalists...
See what I mean...All negatives AND he gets to meet a Left-wing agenda
too! You are right, he does overstate his case. And if you are worried
about that left-wing agenda, don't be. There is a human liberalism that
often occurs because you belong to a discriminated minority group, but
the left-voting tendency of the gay and lesbian communities is much
over-rated in my opinion.
D.
David Herkt
Enjoy it, it won't last.
D.
David Herkt
> I wear gloves too. But only because I can't forget his confession about
> nose-picking.
What's a bit of dried mucous between friends, huh? As long as he doesn't
spray around the base-boards and on curtains, it'd be fine by me.
D.(who has had intimate experiences with kitten's vomiting upon me in
the night)
David Herkt
Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
Scott Higham
Adele wrote:
> Squirrel wrote:
>
> > >
> > eeeew, but I put gloves on cos you are blue ;)))
> >
>
> I wear gloves too. But only because I can't forget his confession about
> nose-picking.
Oh, Adele!
I bet you have picked your nose before. And I also can guarantee you have
farted while in bed and gone under the sheets to smell it. David
McLoughlin has admitted to this before, so I think you will be in fine
company with having confessed to that one! <g>
Scott.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> Adele wrote re Scott's kittenhood and gloves:
>
> > I wear gloves too. But only because I can't forget his confession about
> > nose-picking.
>
> What's a bit of dried mucous between friends, huh? As long as he doesn't
> spray around the base-boards and on curtains, it'd be fine by me.
>
> D.(who has had intimate experiences with kitten's vomiting upon me in
> the night)
My cat sleeps with me - right under the covers and smack-bam in the middle of
the bed, forcing me to slide in on the side making it all rather awkward.
And its always a source of humour at our house because my parents keep saying
'Scotts got a pussy in his bed' or something equally humourless.
Scott.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> See what I mean...All negatives AND he gets to meet a Left-wing agenda
> too! You are right, he does overstate his case. And if you are worried
> about that left-wing agenda, don't be. There is a human liberalism that
> often occurs because you belong to a discriminated minority group, but
> the left-voting tendency of the gay and lesbian communities is much
> over-rated in my opinion.
I would say so. Ignoring all other factors, gay males are often single,
well-educated, in high income positions, and living in major metropolitan centres.
Thats gotta be a prime target for parties like National and ACT.
I realise the 'pink dollar' arguments are quite contentious, so won't go into them
here, other than to say that you shouldnt ignore them.
Scott.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
I read an 'abridged' version, and a whole heap of academic
critique based on this, for a Politics research paper two years
ago at varsity.
Scott.
Kerry
wrote:
>And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
>Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
No I hate her
Couldn't do it
Scott Higham
Kerry wrote:
Pleased to see you have your objective and non-biased academic hat on
today Kerry. <g>
Scott.
Brian Logan
Gee Scott, it's your opportunity to smile at them and say "Enjoy it,
it's the only one that will be."
Brian
PS how's the gossip at your work going about you?
-- Brian Logan ICQ#4931597
mailto:ul...@bigfoot.com
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars...
- Oscar Wilde
David McLoughlin
>
> And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
yep.
They are fairly tedious, 1940s books.
Atlas Shrugged has an interesting theme about how the best brains in the
world go on strike over the demands of the plebs for "more more more" of
other people's money and effort. There are parallels with today, but the
story is still so dated I find it hard to understand how it forms one of
the main bases of the Libertarianz religion.
The Fountainhead is about a great architect whose world-class buidlding
designs are rejected by populist architects. It's also an interesting
theme, but the book is very, very wooden when read in 1999. Like many
books from the same era.
Yet some books from 100 years ago and more are still readable and fresh.
The thing I disliked most about The Fountainhead, apart from its wooden
plot and wooden characters, was that the female lead was violently raped
by the male lead and "enjoyed" it. It put me off Ayn Rand for life.
David McLoughlin
Auckland New Zealand
"Oh my god, they’ve killed Kenny!"
David McLoughlin
> And I also can guarantee you have
> farted while in bed and gone under the sheets to smell it. David
> McLoughlin has admitted to this before, so I think you will be in fine
> company with having confessed to that one! <g>
Actually that is Margot's speciality, Scott. But it doesn't involve
diving under the blankets, she shakes the sheets to make the fragrance
come to the top.
David McLoughlin
Auckland New Zealand
Monica: "Hey Handsome, are you pleased to see me, or is that a cigar in
your pocket?"
Scott Higham
Brian Logan wrote:
> >> What's a bit of dried mucous between friends, huh? As long as he doesn't
> >> spray around the base-boards and on curtains, it'd be fine by me.
> >>
> >> D.(who has had intimate experiences with kitten's vomiting upon me in
> >> the night)
> >
> >My cat sleeps with me - right under the covers and smack-bam in the middle of
> >the bed, forcing me to slide in on the side making it all rather awkward.
> >
> >And its always a source of humour at our house because my parents keep saying
> >'Scotts got a pussy in his bed' or something equally humourless.
>
> Gee Scott, it's your opportunity to smile at them and say "Enjoy it,
> it's the only one that will be."
Thats what I thought. Incidentally, I should probably advise interested persons
that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
what happens.
> Brian
> PS how's the gossip at your work going about you?
Well, still gossiping as far as I know. I am pretty much certain I am about to
get a promotion, and have to move locations for my work in a permanent full time
capacity. It will be interesting to see whether this particular issue has
anything at all to do with it. I dont think it will, as I am pretty sure senior
management is unaware, but you never know!!
Scott.
DPF
in <36C7E351...@national.org.nz>:
>Thats what I thought. Incidentally, I should probably advise interested persons
>that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
>made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
>happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
>what happens.
Good luck with it all. They may take a while to react and get used to
it, but hopefully it won't change anything important between you.
DPF
________________________________________________________________________
<david at farrar dot com>
NZ Usenet FAQs - http://www.dpf.ac.nz/usenet/nz
ICQ 29964527
Scott Higham
DPF wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:05:22 +1300 in nz.soc.queer Scott Higham wrote:
> in <36C7E351...@national.org.nz>:
>
> >Thats what I thought. Incidentally, I should probably advise interested persons
> >that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
> >made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
> >happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
> >what happens.
>
> Good luck with it all. They may take a while to react and get used to
> it, but hopefully it won't change anything important between you.
Thanks for that DPF.
Its important for me that others round here know the 'timeframe', as it kind of
motivates me a bit. Its high time I started acting like the 22 year old I am meant to
be!
Scott.
Squirrel
wrote:
>Squirrel wrote:
>
>> >
>> eeeew, but I put gloves on cos you are blue ;)))
>>
>
>I wear gloves too. But only because I can't forget his confession about
>nose-picking.
>
>
>Adele
snot something I like to be reminded of thanx possum ;)
Squirrel
Squirrel
wrote:
>Adele wrote re Scott's kittenhood and gloves:
>
>> I wear gloves too. But only because I can't forget his confession about
>> nose-picking.
>
>What's a bit of dried mucous between friends, huh? As long as he doesn't
>spray around the base-boards and on curtains, it'd be fine by me.
>
>D.(who has had intimate experiences with kitten's vomiting upon me in
>the night)
dont you love how the noise of a cat retching in your ear can be
incorporated into the sexiest of dreams until the deposit is finally
released (but I am sure you have a good dream action to cover that to
aye sweet cheeks :))
Squirrel
Squirrel
<scott....@national.org.nz> wrote:
>
>
>David Herkt wrote:
>
>> Adele wrote re Scott's kittenhood and gloves:
>>
>> > I wear gloves too. But only because I can't forget his confession about
>> > nose-picking.
>>
>> What's a bit of dried mucous between friends, huh? As long as he doesn't
>> spray around the base-boards and on curtains, it'd be fine by me.
>>
>> D.(who has had intimate experiences with kitten's vomiting upon me in
>> the night)
>
>My cat sleeps with me - right under the covers and smack-bam in the middle of
>the bed, forcing me to slide in on the side making it all rather awkward.
>
>And its always a source of humour at our house because my parents keep saying
>'Scotts got a pussy in his bed' or something equally humourless.
>
>Scott.
>
ever wondered why your last word, consists of two words, that put
together in this context make no sense, sorry it just hit me :)
Squirrel
Squirrel
DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Squirrel "Partice Pan"
Squirrel
Monica found a genie, wank wank long story, given one wish, asked for
her love handles to go, her ears dropped off :)
Squirrel
Scott Higham
Squirrel wrote:
> >And its always a source of humour at our house because my parents keep saying
> >'Scotts got a pussy in his bed' or something equally humourless.
> >
> >Scott.
> >
> ever wondered why your last word, consists of two words, that put
> together in this context make no sense, sorry it just hit me :)
Yes, on a second reading it is an odd sentence. I have a bad habit of
contradicting myself with double negatives in sentences all the time, so this is
really just the tip of the iceberg Squirrel.
Scot.
Moz (Chris Moseley)
And I feel even more stood up now. Scott, oh Scott, why did you abandon us?
Moz
Scott Higham
"Moz (Chris Moseley)" wrote:
I abandoned you? Are you talking about when I forgot to go to the Wgtn usenet
movie thing? Cos, I honestly just forgot - and I must say I feel terrible about
it, because I am actually a well-organised thing most of the time, and I feel
somewhat shoddy that I didnt remember till I got home.
Or do you just mean that I am now a feline who posts to newsgroups?
Scott.
Squirrel
<mo...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>Scott Higham wrote
>>Kerry wrote:
>>> It's cos you are just so cute Scott
>
>>Now I feel like some kind of kitten that everybody is playing with at a party!
>
>
>And I feel even more stood up now. Scott, oh Scott, why did you abandon us?
>
>Moz
>
>
thank christ he did not say "forsake"!!!
Squirrel
Squirrel
cancel that scott, on reading I have no fucking idea what I was going
on about!! I did then but it evades me now :)
Squirrel
Brian Logan
>Thats what I thought. Incidentally, I should probably advise interested persons
>that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
>made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
>happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
>what happens.
Good luck. btw your sister will probably find out in the next few
months anyway, which your posting here and the people she gets to
meet, so there's another incentive for you.
>Well, still gossiping as far as I know. I am pretty much certain I am about to
>get a promotion, and have to move locations for my work in a permanent full time
>capacity. It will be interesting to see whether this particular issue has
>anything at all to do with it. I dont think it will, as I am pretty sure senior
>management is unaware, but you never know!!
So when they do promote you, you'll realise senior management knows
when they transfer you to Timbuktu. ;-)
Brian
Hugh Young
Scott Higham <scott....@national.org.nz> wrote in article
<36C7B0AC...@national.org.nz>...
>
>
> Kerry wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:40:58 +1300, David Herkt <dhe...@ihug.co.nz>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> > >Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
> >
> > No I hate her
> >
> > Couldn't do it
>
> Pleased to see you have your objective and non-biased academic hat on
> today Kerry. <g>
I tried, I really tried. I also tried one of her essays - "In Defence of
Selfishness"? She is unreadable. Just unsupported assertion after
unsupported assertion. Also more internalised sexism that I've ever seen
before: Man this, man that, men the other.
--
Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / New Zealand
http://www.Geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/7712/
Kerry
Hoult) wrote:
>In article <36c7ad4e...@news.ihug.co.nz>,
>ker...@remove.this.bit.ihug.co.nz wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:40:58 +1300, David Herkt <dhe...@ihug.co.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
>> >Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
>>
>>
>> No I hate her
>>
>> Couldn't do it
>
>Interesting. Hate based on ... what? Not her works, obviously, having
>not read them.
Well one can try to read her works
Found the writing errm uninspiring, and the content unattractive
K
>
>
>And why has hate golt anything to do with it? I've read Das Kapital as
>well, and I certainly don't agree with *that* one!
>
>-- Bruce
David Herkt
>
> David Herkt wrote:
> >
> > And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> > Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
>
>
> They are fairly tedious, 1940s books.
>
> Atlas Shrugged has an interesting theme about how the best brains in the
> world go on strike over the demands of the plebs for "more more more" of
> other people's money and effort. There are parallels with today, but the
> story is still so dated I find it hard to understand how it forms one of
> the main bases of the Libertarianz religion.
>
> The Fountainhead is about a great architect whose world-class buidlding
> designs are rejected by populist architects. It's also an interesting
> theme, but the book is very, very wooden when read in 1999. Like many
> books from the same era.
>
> Yet some books from 100 years ago and more are still readable and fresh.
>
> The thing I disliked most about The Fountainhead, apart from its wooden
> plot and wooden characters, was that the female lead was violently raped
> by the male lead and "enjoyed" it. It put me off Ayn Rand for life.
I find her quite fascinating in a ghoulish sort of way. She was born in
Russia and left in the early 1920's after the Bolsheviks took over.
There is something uncannily similar between her numbingly programatic
books where every plot point represents a philosophical one and those
works of Socialist Realism ('Summer in Collective Farm No.9' 'Spring
Harvest') where ditto. However in Ayn, her 'good' characters get the
dollars due to them whereas in Socialist Realism the harvest is got in
just before the rains because of collective effort.
I do agree with David that the sex in Rand is interesting. Her heroines
are always fairly chilly and lubriciousness is only provided by the
selfish hero selfishly taking his due pleasure. This, too, is
programmatic though, and is simply an extention of the economic system
and the attitudes she espouses. It is interesting to note that if you
read other popular novels of the time ('Forever Amber', 'Peyton Place')
there is a lot of reluctant heroines being bodice-ripped and raped, well
we would call it rape, they didn't seem to. (And for popular rape check
out the Mandingo, Drum, Mandingo Drum series of books written slightly
later in the early 1960s about Southern slave-owning before the Civil
War)
And Rand has a peculiar turn of phrase that I have to confess that I
like in an awful sort of way. The beginning of The Fountain provides me
with a sickening sort of fascination:
"Howard Roark laughed.
He stood naked at the edge of a cliff. The lake lay far below him. A
frozen explosion of granite burst in flight to the sky over motionless
water. The water seemed immovable, the stone - flowing. The stone had
the stillness of one brief moment in battle when thrust meets thrust and
the currents are held in a pause more dynamic than motion. The stone
glowed, wet with sunrays.
The lake below was only a thin steel ring that cut the rocks in half.
The rocks went on into the depth, unchanged. They began and ended in the
sky.So that the world seemed suspended in space, an island floating on
nothing, anchored to the feet of the man on the cliff.
His body leaned back against the sky. It was a body of long straight
lines and angles, each curve broken into planes. He stood, rigid, his
hands hanging at his sides,palms out..."
D.
David Herkt
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:05:22 +1300 in nz.soc.queer Scott Higham wrote:
> in <36C7E351...@national.org.nz>:
>
> >that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
> >made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
> >happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
> >what happens.
>
> it, but hopefully it won't change anything important between you.
And congratters from me on the prospect of a promo at work. Will it get
you off the 5pm - midnight shift that your posting times seem to
indicate you are doing?
And I'm with Dippf (well thats how I say it in my head), your sexual
orientation shouldn't change anything at work (legally its not allowed
to change anything) and if it does, in those hard-to-sue-for attitudinal
things, well you know you are better off out of there...
And at home? Well seeing as how you are currently getting the cutsie-pie
of the week award around here, I somehow anyone is capable of casting
you out into that cold night to face the empty sex and empty
conversation of the Objectivist view of gay Wellington... It'll mean a
hiccup while everyone gets their respective heads around the subject.
But generally, I feel that parents usually know anyway, somewhere and
somehow. So it is just a matter of regularising a pre-existing
situation.
And good luck from this neck of the woods.
D.
David Herkt
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:33:20 +1300, Scott Higham
> <scott....@national.org.nz> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >DPF wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:05:22 +1300 in nz.soc.queer Scott Higham wrote:
> >> in <36C7E351...@national.org.nz>:
> >>
> >> >Thats what I thought. Incidentally, I should probably advise interested persons
> >> >that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
> >> >made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
> >> >happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
> >> >what happens.
> >>
> >> Good luck with it all. They may take a while to react and get used to
> >> it, but hopefully it won't change anything important between you.
> >
> >
> >Its important for me that others round here know the 'timeframe', as it kind of
> >motivates me a bit. Its high time I started acting like the 22 year old I am meant to
> >be!
> >
> >Scott.
> >
> DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't do what? Act like a 22 year old? This is something that personally
I aspire to. I think I have got up to acting like a 19 year old so far,
a couple more years and I should reach 22... Do you think I'll be a
grown-up then, Squirr?
David (born 1955 and quite oddly can recall my parent's subsequent
reactions to Arnold Nordmeyer's budget in 1958. This has scarred me for
life. I cannot hear the word 'budget' without some visceral reaction.
Because I was the kind of obnoxiously forward child who was reading the
newspapers by age six (preferred position - under the kitchen table,
after breakfast and before school), I have quite a good recall of world
events in the early 1960s. Patrice Lumumba, the President of the Congo
was deposed and assasinated sometime 1960-1961 and he was my first big
world event that I seem to recall. I think my reading age was enhanced
by the fact that because I lived in a country area we had no access to
libraries except for the unchosen books the country library service
would post out to us every month. Incidentally, I never got to choose a
book from a library until I was eleven. So I simply read every book I
could get my hands on. My parents were never great readers except my
mother had a good line in Mills and Boons and therefore books were there
but not many and it was a weird mix of books that had settled from many
sources including a box that had been donated to a jumble-sale and never
made it to sale. For some reason I remember reading Alberto Moravia's
Two Sisters at around 7 and a slim volume of D.H. Lawrence's Short
Stories a bit later. Then the Cuban Missile Crisis was a big hit of my
newspaper reading in 1962. When I was in Primer Three I shall always be
grateful to a teacher (a Miss Birss - spelling?) who discovered that I
could read, as opposed to reading out loud the page of the primer we
were set. She used to bring in books weekly for me from her home and
this was great. First off was a huge compilation of Greek and Roman
myths... Sorry, you didn't want to know this did you.)
David Herkt
>
> Scott Higham wrote
> >Kerry wrote:
> >> It's cos you are just so cute Scott
>
> >Now I feel like some kind of kitten that everybody is playing with at a party!
>
> And I feel even more stood up now. Scott, oh Scott, why did you abandon us?
Got this thing for pussies have you, Chris Moz? And if he does make it
to one of the civilised, well-organised things you non-Aucklanders seem
to do, can we non-Wellingtonians have a vivid description. I spent 30
minutes a month or so ago trawling through National Party web-sites in
the hope of a picture (my, where our interests lead us...) but I
couldn't find one or him or DPF... Maybe I didn't look in the right
place.
D.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> Got this thing for pussies have you, Chris Moz? And if he does make it
> to one of the civilised, well-organised things you non-Aucklanders seem
> to do, can we non-Wellingtonians have a vivid description. I spent 30
> minutes a month or so ago trawling through National Party web-sites in
> the hope of a picture (my, where our interests lead us...) but I
> couldn't find one or him or DPF... Maybe I didn't look in the right
> place.
Just to annoy you David, I thought you should see the following page. DPF has been
cut out of the picture, and you can just see his arm on the left hand side of the
shot. It was decided he wouldn't be right that he should be seen with members of the
YN executive as he is the oldest Young Nat around.
http://www.national.org.nz/theparty/yn.html
Scott.
Scott Higham
Hugh Young wrote:
>
> > Pleased to see you have your objective and non-biased academic hat on
> > today Kerry. <g>
>
> I tried, I really tried. I also tried one of her essays - "In Defence of
> Selfishness"? She is unreadable. Just unsupported assertion after
> unsupported assertion. Also more internalised sexism that I've ever seen
> before: Man this, man that, men the other.
Hahahaha.
The constant references to 'man' never really bothered me to be honest!!
<g>
Scott.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> > Good luck with it all. They may take a while to react and get used to
> > it, but hopefully it won't change anything important between you.
>
> And congratters from me on the prospect of a promo at work. Will it get
> you off the 5pm - midnight shift that your posting times seem to
> indicate you are doing?
Er, yes, it will be a normal 8-5pm permanent salaried position, which is a nice change.
I will know more at 2.00pm this afternoon, when I am being interviewed for a final time
by a panel who have to decide whether I meet the criteria for the position. I am
reluctant to say anything more until after then, in case it all goes horribly wrong.
But I shouldn't think it will.
And if all goes according to plan, I will be away for a whole week on an intensive
training course in Palmerston North, next week. So wish me luck!
> And I'm with Dippf (well thats how I say it in my head), your sexual
> orientation shouldn't change anything at work (legally its not allowed
> to change anything) and if it does, in those hard-to-sue-for attitudinal
> things, well you know you are better off out of there...
I agree. Its probably me just being paranoid thinking it might be an issue, but it
guess it doesn't hurt to be aware of these sorts of things.
> And at home? Well seeing as how you are currently getting the cutsie-pie
> of the week award around here, I somehow anyone is capable of casting
> you out into that cold night to face the empty sex and empty
> conversation of the Objectivist view of gay Wellington... It'll mean a
> hiccup while everyone gets their respective heads around the subject.
> But generally, I feel that parents usually know anyway, somewhere and
> somehow. So it is just a matter of regularising a pre-existing
> situation.
Well, lets hope its as simple as all that. I'll know by this time next week anyway!
> And good luck from this neck of the woods.
Thanks. I appreciate it Dave. :-)
Scott.
Scott Higham
Brian Logan wrote:
> Good luck. btw your sister will probably find out in the next few
> months anyway, which your posting here and the people she gets to
> meet, so there's another incentive for you.
In fact I suspect she knows already to be honest. She ran into a 'friend of a friend'
at a pub recently, and anyone with half a brain would have put 2 and 2 together. But
nothing has been said, so who knows?
> >Well, still gossiping as far as I know. I am pretty much certain I am about to
> >get a promotion, and have to move locations for my work in a permanent full time
> >capacity. It will be interesting to see whether this particular issue has
> >anything at all to do with it. I dont think it will, as I am pretty sure senior
> >management is unaware, but you never know!!
>
> So when they do promote you, you'll realise senior management knows
> when they transfer you to Timbuktu. ;-)
Well, its likely to be Lower Hutt, so its just as bad!!!!! No offence to Brian
Harmer, if he is reading. <g>
Scott.
David Herkt
DAVE! Uh-uh. No one has called me Dave more than once. Its not nice,
Scottie (see what I mean?). No I am a David. Two syllables. Meaning
"beloved' in Hebrew, rather than Dave ('dim beer-gutted drinker' in
Australian).
D.
David Herkt
>
> David Herkt wrote:
>
And it HASN'T GOT A CAPTION. So which one are you? (god, how can I
phrase this so sweetly that he'll tell me...).
D.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> DAVE! Uh-uh. No one has called me Dave more than once. Its not nice,
> Scottie (see what I mean?). No I am a David. Two syllables. Meaning
> "beloved' in Hebrew, rather than Dave ('dim beer-gutted drinker' in
> Australian).
Wooops, yes sorry David. Same goes for 'Scottie' -- I am not some sidekick of Barry Crump.
Scott.
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> > Just to annoy you David, I thought you should see the following page. DPF has been
> > cut out of the picture, and you can just see his arm on the left hand side of the
> > shot. It was decided he wouldn't be right that he should be seen with members of the
> > YN executive as he is the oldest Young Nat around.
> >
> > http://www.national.org.nz/theparty/yn.html
>
> And it HASN'T GOT A CAPTION. So which one are you? (god, how can I
> phrase this so sweetly that he'll tell me...).
Hahaha, I knew you were going to ask.
Regrettably I am not in the pic. It is almost a year old, and I replaced the person who is
standing in the left of the picture in September last year. In a month we will have a new
picture I expect, which will feature all of the exec (this particular pic is missing the
Southern Divisional Chair). And it will also include the Prime Minister with glasses.
Scott.
Bruce Hoult
<dav...@REMOVEiprolink.co.nz> wrote:
> The thing I disliked most about The Fountainhead, apart from its wooden
> plot and wooden characters, was that the female lead was violently raped
> by the male lead and "enjoyed" it. It put me off Ayn Rand for life.
I believe the author said something like: "if that was rape it was rape by
gold lettered invitation".
Bruce Hoult
> And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
Yes. Fountainhead twice, plus Atlas maybe four times -- it's a good
yarn. Plus Anthem and We The Living and Night of January 16th and most of
the non-fiction books.
So?
-- Bruce
Bruce Hoult
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:40:58 +1300, David Herkt <dhe...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> >Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
>
>
> No I hate her
>
> Couldn't do it
Interesting. Hate based on ... what? Not her works, obviously, having
not read them.
Bruce Hoult
<scott....@national.org.nz> wrote:
> David Herkt wrote:
>
> > And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
> > Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
>
> I read an 'abridged' version, and a whole heap of academic
> critique based on this, for a Politics research paper two years
> ago at varsity.
And reading an abridged version counts!!??!! Geez. Academic standards
are slipping a bit.
Get thee and read an unabridged War and Peace!!
-- Bruce
I just did, and interestingly it was quite different than people
who'd been forced to read it at school said it was. Ditto for
Crime and Punishment.
David Herkt
You are not a kitten, Scott, you are a troll... They use strategies like
that to get people to XXXX-rated sites. So we all went there and
examined intently each of the execs thinking about snot, farting,
car-accidents, not-reading-Ayn-Rand, Rebecca, Star-Trek, baggy trousers
and the ilk and wondering which one it was, and it wasn't any of them...
D.
Unknown
wrote:
>DAVE! Uh-uh. No one has called me Dave more than once. Its not nice,
>Scottie (see what I mean?). No I am a David. Two syllables. Meaning
>"beloved' in Hebrew, rather than Dave ('dim beer-gutted drinker' in
>Australian).
And while we're at it, I'm not Debi, Debbie, Debs or any of those
other names that make me feel like a Barbie doll. Like David, no one
has ever called me Debbie more than once.
Deborah, and proud of it
Moz (Chris Moseley)
Scott Higham wrote
>"Moz (Chris Moseley)" wrote:
>> And I feel even more stood up now. Scott, oh Scott, why did you abandon us?
>I abandoned you? Are you talking about when I forgot to go to the Wgtn usenet
>movie thing? Cos, I honestly just forgot - and I must say I feel terrible about
>it, because I am actually a well-organised thing most of the time, and I feel
>somewhat shoddy that I didnt remember till I got home.
That's ok, really. You're just fun to wind up.
Moz
<real piss-taking grin this time>
Rosie Salas
wrote:
>And has anyone ever actually read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged,The
>Fountainhead) from whence Objectivism sprung?
Sorry, yes... but it was a long time ago! I'm all better now!
Rosie
Rosie Salas
<scott....@national.org.nz> wrote:
>
e."
>
>Thats what I thought. Incidentally, I should probably advise interested persons
>that my sister leaves for Otago University in just under a weeks time, and I have
>made a new years resolution to tell my parents whats going on before that
>happens. So, its just a matter of doing it basically. I will let people know
>what happens.
>
>
>
Good luck Scott hope it goes well.
Rosie
Scott Higham
David Herkt wrote:
> You are not a kitten, Scott, you are a troll... They use strategies like
> that to get people to XXXX-rated sites. So we all went there and
> examined intently each of the execs thinking about snot, farting,
> car-accidents, not-reading-Ayn-Rand, Rebecca, Star-Trek, baggy trousers
> and the ilk and wondering which one it was, and it wasn't any of them...
Oh dear, I'm sorry.
It just seemed odd to me that you had trapsed round the National Party website looking for a
picture of DPF or myself without luck. So, just to tease I thought I'd show you a photo that
had DPF cut out, and one that I would have been in had I replaced a person who resigned a couple
of months earlier.
Look I will send you one by snail mail if you like.
Scott.
DPF
in <36C886...@ihug.co.nz>:
>Got this thing for pussies have you, Chris Moz? And if he does make it
>to one of the civilised, well-organised things you non-Aucklanders seem
>to do, can we non-Wellingtonians have a vivid description. I spent 30
>minutes a month or so ago trawling through National Party web-sites in
>the hope of a picture (my, where our interests lead us...) but I
>couldn't find one or him or DPF... Maybe I didn't look in the right
>place.
Probably related to the fact that I have some degree of editorial
control over what goes on the party web-site :-)
DPF
________________________________________________________________________
<david at farrar dot com>
NZ Usenet FAQs - http://www.dpf.ac.nz/usenet/nz
ICQ 29964527
DPF
in <36C887CD...@national.org.nz>:
>David Herkt wrote:
>
>> Got this thing for pussies have you, Chris Moz? And if he does make it
>> to one of the civilised, well-organised things you non-Aucklanders seem
>> to do, can we non-Wellingtonians have a vivid description. I spent 30
>> minutes a month or so ago trawling through National Party web-sites in
>> the hope of a picture (my, where our interests lead us...) but I
>> couldn't find one or him or DPF... Maybe I didn't look in the right
>> place.
>
>Just to annoy you David, I thought you should see the following page. DPF has been
>cut out of the picture, and you can just see his arm on the left hand side of the
>shot.
Bzzzt. I'm actually the person taking the photo.
>It was decided he wouldn't be right that he should be seen with members of the
>YN executive as he is the oldest Young Nat around.
>http://www.national.org.nz/theparty/yn.html
Honorary Young Nat please. I haven't been a Young Nat since I retired
as National Secretary 2.5 years ago!
What is scary is having the Deputy NZYN Chair tell me that in Auckland
I'm often cited as an example of what can happen to Young Nats. Good
or bad I'll leave to others to judge :-)
Darian
>
> [snipped]
> > Regrettably I am not in the pic. It is almost a year old, and I replaced the person who is
> > standing in the left of the picture in September last year. In a month we will have a new
> > picture I expect, which will feature all of the exec (this particular pic is missing the
> > Southern Divisional Chair). And it will also include the Prime Minister with glasses.
>
> that to get people to XXXX-rated sites. So we all went there and
> examined intently each of the execs thinking about snot, farting,
> car-accidents, not-reading-Ayn-Rand, Rebecca, Star-Trek, baggy trousers
> and the ilk and wondering which one it was, and it wasn't any of them...
My 10 bucks was on the (cute) guy at the back with the green tie ;-)
For some reason I get the feeling that you are actually in the picture
and your protestations to the contrary are a red herring. You're just a
tease Scott ;-)
Ian