Hikoi in the Diocese of Christchurch
Patrick Fitzgerald
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
What on earth is a Hikoi??
And how does it differ from a protest march??
Patrick
Patrick Dunford
Glenavy 9.30 - 10.00 am. Continue to Waimate arriving Anglican church
3.00 - 3.30 pm.
Sept 16th: Waimate to Timaru. Arrive (?Kensington Domain) est 5.30 - 6.30
pm.
Sept 17th: Meet Alexander Square 9.00 am, march up Stafford Street to
Piazza. Short meeting 10.00-10.30 am. Continue to Temuka. Gather 3.00 pm
at old Citizen Hall, Waitohe Road, Temuka, march up King Street to
Anglican Church for short meeting then at 3.30 pm leave for Winchester.
Relay runners from Temuka to Tinwald.
Ashburton:
Public meeting 12.00 - 1.00 pm at "Chessboard" in East Street.
Sept 18th: 9.00 am Anglican Harriers run Ashburton to Dunsandel.
11.00 am Walk from Dunsandel to Hornby arr. 5 - 6 pm.
Sept 19th: 8:30 am start from St Columba's church to Cathedral Square
arriving 11.00 am (see earlier posting for exact route details).
1.30 pm leave Cathedral Square heading north (see earlier posting for
details). Arrive Kaiapoi 6.30 - 7.00 pm
Sept 20th: Sunday morning worship in Kaiapoi churches & marae. Leave
Kaiapoi 10.30 am for Woodend, lunch at noon. Depart Woodend 1 pm for
Amberley, arrive 5 - 6 pm, meal before Amberley ecumenical service 7 pm.
Sept 21: Leave Amberley 9.30 am for Waipara for lunch 11.30 am. Depart
Waipara 12.30 pm for Greta Valley, arrive 5.30 pm.
Sept 22: Depart Greta Valley 8.30 pm. Arrive Cheviot at noon then 1 pm
Cheviot - Hawkswood arriving 5.00 - 5.30 pm.
Sept 23: Dep Hawkswood 7.00 am. Arrive Conway River 10.00 am. This is the
northern boundary of the diocese.
--
Patrick Dunford, Christchurch, NZ
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/
-----------------------------------------------------
ID Cards & Systems and Privacy Issues -
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/9789/privacy/
**************************************************
Christianity Explained - http://www.christ.gen.nz/
Patrick Fitzgerald
So do I take it that nobody - not even patrick_dunford knows what a
Hikoi is!!!
Patrick
Patrick Fitzgerald
mew...@my-dejanews.com
patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:49:16 GMT, patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick
> Fitzgerald) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
> >(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
> >
> >What on earth is a Hikoi??
> >
> >And how does it differ from a protest march??
> So do I take it that nobody - not even patrick_dunford knows what a
> Hikoi is!!!
>
http://www.hikoi.anglican.org.nz/
Where all is explained.
M E Wood Christchurch
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Patrick Fitzgerald
Can't someone tell me how a Hikoi differs from a Protest march in one
sentence...and please dont give me a URL
The Hikoi arrives here tomorrow and depending on how a Hikkie is
defined I might join in.
Id est if it is not the equivalent of a protest march I won't bother
Patrick
mew...@my-dejanews.com
" a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be united
about"
Saturday 19th Hikoi in Christchurch .
John Cawston
mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35ff469...@207.126.101.100>,
> patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:44:55 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Can't someone tell me how a Hikoi differs from a Protest march in one
> > sentence...and please dont give me a URL
> >
> > The Hikoi arrives here tomorrow and depending on how a Hikkie is
> > defined I might join in.
> >
> > Id est if it is not the equivalent of a protest march I won't bother
> >
>
> " a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
> structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
> their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
> from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be united
> about"
>
Or a large red mark on the side of a young person's neck.
JC
Shiny
Also, this particular form of protest has brought people together from
many different groups and backgrounds. I attended one of these events
and noticed anglicans, unions, peace groups, hippies, ravers, a national
MP, ethnic assocs, teachers, SIS, iwi, health workers, Govt & council
employees, young labour members, police and even a survivalist group. A
gathering of very different people with common agreement that the
current Govt doesn't represent them & has no mandate to continue.
mew...@my-dejanews.com
John Cawston <rewa...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>.
> > " a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
> > structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
> > their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
> > from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be
united
> > about"
> >
>
I don't speak American myself but you could be right. But isn't it spelt
hickey?
Meanwhile the hikoi was amazing it started off with a few people at Hornby
but attracted and enormous number by the time it got near Hagley Park. It was
like a magnet attracting iron filings. I think people were joining at the
front because though I was in the middle to begin with I found by the time we
were in Worcester Boulevard I couldn't see the front. Of course a large
number from Addington joined in Rolleston Avenue in front of the Museum. I
don't know how many were in the Square because the Maori welcome had started
by the time we got there! It went on for an hour and a lot of people left
because of the heat. There were a lot of old people and small children who
couldn't stand for an hour after walking for so long. However most people who
sneaked away for lunch and comfort stops must have come back for the second
leg out from the Square and up Colombo Street. Or others must have replaced
them We were walking five abreast with a piper playing marching music and we
were holding up traffic quite satifactorily all the way through Edgeware. It
was very well supported by the most varied collection of groups I have seen
for a long time , from militant atheists to Catholics. I wonder how it will
presented in the news media ! There were considerably more before the very
long ceremonies so the numbers in the Square varied considerably. M E Wood
Sandra Young
>them We were walking five abreast with a piper playing marching music and we
>were holding up traffic quite satifactorily all the way through Edgeware.
Yeah, thanks a lot.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
Watch out for sonic booms on the way. :-)
Eric Stevens
Chaos is found in the greatest abundance wherever order is being
sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organised.
-: Ly Tin Wheedle
Eric Stevens
Fitzgerald) wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>What on earth is a Hikoi??
>
>And how does it differ from a protest march??
>
Buses (to a timetable) and cameras. :-(
Eric Stevens
>In article <35fca60...@207.126.101.100>,
> patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:49:16 GMT, patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick
>> Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>> >(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>> >
>> >What on earth is a Hikoi??
>> >
>> >And how does it differ from a protest march??
>> So do I take it that nobody - not even patrick_dunford knows what a
>> Hikoi is!!!
>>
>The official site which explains about the Hikoi is on
>http://www.hikoi.anglican.org.nz/
>
>Where all is explained.
Where all is NOT explained.
Eric Stevens
>In article <35ff469...@207.126.101.100>,
> patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:44:55 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> Can't someone tell me how a Hikoi differs from a Protest march in one
>> sentence...and please dont give me a URL
>>
>> The Hikoi arrives here tomorrow and depending on how a Hikkie is
>> defined I might join in.
>>
>> Id est if it is not the equivalent of a protest march I won't bother
>>
>
> " a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
>structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
>their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
>from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be united
>about"
That is taking a distinct liberty with the language (but what is new
about that in this case?).
A Dictionary of the Maqori Language - Williams - 1971
'Hikoi, v.i. Step. Te kaha te hikoi o te tangata. - Nei ka hikoi te
horo ki pango'
'Hikoi, v.i. stagger || tukoki'
The meaning you have attributed seems to be as synthetic as its
application to the present case. But what is new?
Patrick Dunford
09:44:03 GMT in nz.politics:<36328331....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
didst write unto us...
>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
Why don't you piss off back to wherever you have been the past month :)
--
Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/
-----------------------------------------------------
Patrick Dunford
didst write unto us...
>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:49:16 GMT, patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick
>Fitzgerald) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>
>>What on earth is a Hikoi??
>>
>>And how does it differ from a protest march??
>>
>
>Buses (to a timetable) and cameras. :-(
Basically that is a lie. So put up or shut up.
Patrick Dunford
didst write unto us...
>On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:44:55 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>In article <35fca60...@207.126.101.100>,
>> patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:49:16 GMT, patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick
>>> Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>> >(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>> >
>>> >What on earth is a Hikoi??
>>> >
>>> >And how does it differ from a protest march??
>>> So do I take it that nobody - not even patrick_dunford knows what a
>>> Hikoi is!!!
>>>
>>The official site which explains about the Hikoi is on
>>http://www.hikoi.anglican.org.nz/
>>
>>Where all is explained.
>
>Where all is NOT explained.
You mean it doesn't support your fantasy about the buses.
Patrick Dunford
didst write unto us...
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:23:36 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>In article <35ff469...@207.126.101.100>,
>> patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:44:55 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Can't someone tell me how a Hikoi differs from a Protest march in one
>>> sentence...and please dont give me a URL
>>>
>>> The Hikoi arrives here tomorrow and depending on how a Hikkie is
>>> defined I might join in.
>>>
>>> Id est if it is not the equivalent of a protest march I won't bother
>>>
>>
>> " a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
>>structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
>>their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
>>from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be united
>>about"
>
>That is taking a distinct liberty with the language (but what is new
>about that in this case?).
>
>A Dictionary of the Maqori Language - Williams - 1971
>
>'Hikoi, v.i. Step. Te kaha te hikoi o te tangata. - Nei ka hikoi te
>horo ki pango'
>
>'Hikoi, v.i. stagger || tukoki'
>
>The meaning you have attributed seems to be as synthetic as its
>application to the present case. But what is new?
Nitpicking?
That paragraph does not purport to be a dictionary definition does it.
Eric Stevens
It does purport to be a definition but it's meaning is not even close
to that of the dictionary.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Thu, 08 Oct 1998
>09:44:04 GMT in nz.politics:<3633835e....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
>didst write unto us...
>
>>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:49:16 GMT, patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick
>>Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>>
>>>What on earth is a Hikoi??
>>>
>>>And how does it differ from a protest march??
>>>
>>
>>Buses (to a timetable) and cameras. :-(
>
>Basically that is a lie. So put up or shut up.
I have already 'put up' and given you a Herald article as my source.
Someone (dave Joll?) has independently confirmed that there was such
an article.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Thu, 08 Oct 1998
>09:44:03 GMT in nz.politics:<36328331....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
>didst write unto us...
>
>>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>
A bit twitchy aren't you? :-)
The average speeds for the 'walks' listed above varies from 3.7 to 7.1
kph. The former might be sustainable for untrained individuals but not
even fit troops would find it easy to cover the 25 kilometres from
Greta Valley to Cheviot in the 3.5 hours allowed. One thing is clear,
what ever else this 'hikoi' may be, it is not purely a walk and as has
now been made clear there will be few (if any) who cover the entire
distance on foot in the time allowed.
I think I have made my point but (literally) for God's sake stop
pretending that this is a bunch of protestors walking from the ends of
New Zealand to Wellington.
Patrick Dunford
05:03:33 GMT in nz.politics:<36748d59....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
didst write unto us...
>On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:55:17 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Thu, 08 Oct 1998
>>09:44:06 GMT in nz.politics:<363583d9....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
>>didst write unto us...
>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:23:36 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <35ff469...@207.126.101.100>,
>>>> patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:44:55 GMT, mew...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't someone tell me how a Hikoi differs from a Protest march in one
>>>>> sentence...and please dont give me a URL
>>>>>
>>>>> The Hikoi arrives here tomorrow and depending on how a Hikkie is
>>>>> defined I might join in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Id est if it is not the equivalent of a protest march I won't bother
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> " a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
>>>>structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
>>>>their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
>>>>from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be united
>>>>about"
>>>
>>>That is taking a distinct liberty with the language (but what is new
>>>about that in this case?).
>>>
>>>A Dictionary of the Maqori Language - Williams - 1971
>>>
>>>'Hikoi, v.i. Step. Te kaha te hikoi o te tangata. - Nei ka hikoi te
>>>horo ki pango'
>>>
>>>'Hikoi, v.i. stagger || tukoki'
>>>
>>>The meaning you have attributed seems to be as synthetic as its
>>>application to the present case. But what is new?
>>
>>Nitpicking?
>>
>>That paragraph does not purport to be a dictionary definition does it.
>
>It does purport to be a definition but it's meaning is not even close
>to that of the dictionary.
v.i. - verb intransitive?
Go back to your dictionary and look up hikoi as a NOUN or ADJECTIVE,
please.
But I suggest you visit Ngata-Base at
http://www.learningmedia.co.nz/nz/nd/ngatasearch/ntinputm.htm as well
Patrick Dunford
didst write unto us...
>On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:53:24 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Thu, 08 Oct 1998
>>09:44:04 GMT in nz.politics:<3633835e....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
>>didst write unto us...
>>
>>>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:49:16 GMT, patr...@netaccess.co.nz (Patrick
>>>Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>>>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>What on earth is a Hikoi??
>>>>
>>>>And how does it differ from a protest march??
>>>>
>>>
>>>Buses (to a timetable) and cameras. :-(
>>
>>Basically that is a lie. So put up or shut up.
>
>I have already 'put up' and given you a Herald article as my source.
>Someone (dave Joll?) has independently confirmed that there was such
>an article.
yes, the article could be 100% wrong but indisputably it still existed :)
Patrick Dunford
didst write unto us...
>On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:53:22 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Thu, 08 Oct 1998
>>09:44:03 GMT in nz.politics:<36328331....@news.iprolink.co.nz>
>>didst write unto us...
>>
>>>On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:48:25 +1200, patrick...@hotmail.com
>>>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>>
With the nonsense you keep propagating based on prejudice?
>The average speeds for the 'walks' listed above varies from 3.7 to 7.1
>kph. The former might be sustainable for untrained individuals but not
>even fit troops would find it easy to cover the 25 kilometres from
>Greta Valley to Cheviot in the 3.5 hours allowed. One thing is clear,
>what ever else this 'hikoi' may be, it is not purely a walk and as has
>now been made clear there will be few (if any) who cover the entire
>distance on foot in the time allowed.
It is possible to walk in relays and the majority of the distances were,
in fact, covered on foot. No-one has pretended otherwise. The information
has been publicly available throughout.
>I think I have made my point but (literally) for God's sake stop
>pretending that this is a bunch of protestors walking from the ends of
>New Zealand to Wellington.
It is exactly that and no-one is pretending otherwise. I certainly am
not. Unlike you I am not propagating a myth that a bunch of protesters
took a month to drive from the ends of NZ to Wellington.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
Dunford's definition (before he looked it up):-
>>>>> " a hikoi is..... Used to draw attention of the public to an unjust
>>>>>structure and to call the nation to join and become a joint voice, to bring
>>>>>their physical presence. "It shows where to stand, and where you are coming
>>>>>from. It is a way to arouse the public mind on issues people should be united
>>>>>about"
>>>>
>>>>That is taking a distinct liberty with the language (but what is new
>>>>about that in this case?).
>>>>
>>>>A Dictionary of the Maqori Language - Williams - 1971
>>>>
>>>>'Hikoi, v.i. Step. Te kaha te hikoi o te tangata. - Nei ka hikoi te
>>>>horo ki pango'
>>>>
>>>>'Hikoi, v.i. stagger || tukoki'
>>>>
>>>>The meaning you have attributed seems to be as synthetic as its
>>>>application to the present case. But what is new?
>>>
>>>Nitpicking?
>>>
>>>That paragraph does not purport to be a dictionary definition does it.
>>
>>It does purport to be a definition but it's meaning is not even close
>
>>to that of the dictionary.
>
>v.i. - verb intransitive?
>
>Go back to your dictionary and look up hikoi as a NOUN or ADJECTIVE,
>please.
>
>But I suggest you visit Ngata-Base at
>http://www.learningmedia.co.nz/nz/nd/ngatasearch/ntinputm.htm as well
I have. All the examples quoted use 'hikoi' in the sense of walk or
step. So what are you trying to say?
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>Eric Stevens wrote in message <36758dec....@news.iprolink.co.nz>...
>
>>I have already 'put up' and given you a Herald article as my source.
>>Someone (dave Joll?) has independently confirmed that there was such
>>an article.
>
>
>Actually I was only taking your word that there was such an
>article - personally I found the (reported) content of the
>article widely at variance with what I myself observed.
>
>Is this article actually on-line, preferably with the name of the
>writer attached?
Hell no. Not the Herald.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>>Why don't you piss off back to wherever you have been the past month :)
>>
>>A bit twitchy aren't you? :-)
>
>With the nonsense you keep propagating based on prejudice?
>
>>The average speeds for the 'walks' listed above varies from 3.7 to 7.1
>>kph. The former might be sustainable for untrained individuals but not
>>even fit troops would find it easy to cover the 25 kilometres from
>>Greta Valley to Cheviot in the 3.5 hours allowed. One thing is clear,
>>what ever else this 'hikoi' may be, it is not purely a walk and as has
>>now been made clear there will be few (if any) who cover the entire
>>distance on foot in the time allowed.
>
>It is possible to walk in relays and the majority of the distances were,
>in fact, covered on foot. No-one has pretended otherwise. The information
>has been publicly available throughout.
>
>>I think I have made my point but (literally) for God's sake stop
>>pretending that this is a bunch of protestors walking from the ends of
>>New Zealand to Wellington.
>
>It is exactly that and no-one is pretending otherwise. I certainly am
>not. Unlike you I am not propagating a myth that a bunch of protesters
>took a month to drive from the ends of NZ to Wellington.
I have replied to this elsewhere in great detail. The information
published by the organisers, including that posted to this ng by you,
states that a group of people were (or have) walked the entire
distance from the four corners of the country to Parliament. It is now
clear that this was neither possible (as you have correctly pointed
out) or done. But the lie persists.
Dave Joll
>I have already 'put up' and given you a Herald article as my source.
>Someone (dave Joll?) has independently confirmed that there was such
>an article.
Actually I was only taking your word that there was such an
article - personally I found the (reported) content of the
article widely at variance with what I myself observed.
Is this article actually on-line, preferably with the name of the
writer attached?
Regards
Dave Joll
Patrick Dunford
+1300 in nz.politics:<90793717...@Chaos.es.co.nz> didst write unto
us...
A copy of _a_ Herald column can be found at
http://www.vision-nz.co.nz/george3.htm
See also
http://www.vision-nz.co.nz/resp1.htm
http://www.vision-nz.co.nz/resp2.htm
FYI here is a comment from one of the Anglican media people:
Return-Path: hikoi-new...@lists.earthlight.co.nz
Received: from hanoi.earthlight.co.nz (li...@hanoi.earthlight.co.nz
[203.97.8.5]) by central.caverock.co.nz (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id
UAA19790 for <pdun...@caverock.net.nz>; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:02:31 +1200
Received: (from list@localhost)
by hanoi.earthlight.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07091;
Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:05:34 +1200
Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:04:16 +1200
Message-ID: <01BDE0E3.E5AF2260@DESK>
From: Julia Stuart <julia....@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Hikoi News'" <hikoi...@lists.earthlight.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:02:34 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by
hanoi.earthlight.co.nz id UAA07010
Resent-Message-ID: <"lzRlSC.A.utB.A-h_1"@hanoi>
Resent-From: hikoi...@lists.earthlight.co.nz
Resent-Reply-To: hikoi...@lists.earthlight.co.nz
X-Mailing-List: <hikoi...@lists.earthlight.co.nz> archive/latest/244
X-Loop: hikoi...@lists.earthlight.co.nz
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: hikoi-new...@lists.earthlight.co.nz
Subject: [hikoi-news] Unidentified subject!
Status:
Thanks for your query, Patrick. We've already explained this, but here it
is again for those who may have joined this list later.
In the original planning, we consulted people who had done this exercise
before, and came up with the following pattern in order to cover the
thousands of km in the 31 days allocated..
It is accepted that a walking human can cover 42 km a day on foot on a
reasonably level road surface.
On the main Highway One route, there are feet on the ground all the way,
but not everyone walks every inch of it. This is for both speed and
safety reasons.
So in some places, to cover the distances, walkers split into groups and
each covers a sector of the route simultaneously. At 5 km an hour (brisk
walk) this means that four groups can cover 20 km in an hour.
In other areas, a van carries walkers/runners, and with groups taking
turn to cover a set distance. Or a group of runners may take a sector of
the route and run that, rejoining the rest who travel by mini-van.
On the "feeder" Hikoi routes (currently East Coast, West Coast, King
Country, Thames Valley, Golden Bay and later this week Bay of Plenty),
some roads are too dangerous to walk and Transit NZ will not permit it.
On the West Coast, they are overcoming this by bicycling, which Transit
NZ will allow. In the Wairarapa, permission to walk the Rimutaka Hill has
not been given, but some are planning to walk the Rimutaka Incline (the
old rail track) to keep faith the the "feet on the ground" concept.
There is also a another core Hikoi group whose primary task is the formal
and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the
welcomes and farewells. They walk some of the distances, but mostly
travel by bus and join the Hikoi at the places where it stops.
Anybody who shares the Hikoi concerns and accepts the Hikoi leaders'
authority can join the Hikoi at any point and walk/jog/run as far as they
wish, taking part in the forums and meetings.
And - as we have seen - they do.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>Yea verily Dave Joll (jol...@es.co.nz) on Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:18:26
>+1300 in nz.politics:<90793717...@Chaos.es.co.nz> didst write unto
>us...
>
>>Eric Stevens wrote in message <36758dec....@news.iprolink.co.nz>...
>>
>>>I have already 'put up' and given you a Herald article as my source.
>>>Someone (dave Joll?) has independently confirmed that there was such
>>>an article.
>>
>>
>>Actually I was only taking your word that there was such an
>>article - personally I found the (reported) content of the
>>article widely at variance with what I myself observed.
>>
>>Is this article actually on-line, preferably with the name of the
>>writer attached?
>
>A copy of _a_ Herald column can be found at
>http://www.vision-nz.co.nz/george3.htm
Not the same one.
>
>See also
>http://www.vision-nz.co.nz/resp1.htm
>http://www.vision-nz.co.nz/resp2.htm
>
>FYI here is a comment from one of the Anglican media people:
>
---- < header snipped > -----
>
>Thanks for your query, Patrick. We've already explained this, but here it
>is again for those who may have joined this list later.
>In the original planning, we consulted people who had done this exercise
>before, and came up with the following pattern in order to cover the
>thousands of km in the 31 days allocated..
>It is accepted that a walking human can cover 42 km a day on foot on a
>reasonably level road surface.
That is 8.5 hours of actual walking a day at the speed of a military
march. I can confirm from my own experience that that fit soldiers
would find this damned hard work and after allowing for rests and a
meal break would require abot a 10 hour day. I do not believe that
this could be either achieved or maintained by the average hikoi
marcher for the length of the march.
>On the main Highway One route, there are feet on the ground all the way,
>but not everyone walks every inch of it.
This is contrary to what has been variously claimed/implied/reported
right up to the end of the hikoi. See one of my other posts with a
number of quotes.
>This is for both speed and
>safety reasons.
>So in some places, to cover the distances, walkers split into groups and
>each covers a sector of the route simultaneously.
>At 5 km an hour (brisk
>walk) this means that four groups can cover 20 km in an hour.
>In other areas, a van carries walkers/runners, and with groups taking
>turn to cover a set distance. Or a group of runners may take a sector of
>the route and run that, rejoining the rest who travel by mini-van.
Or bus, if there is enough of them.
>
>On the "feeder" Hikoi routes (currently East Coast, West Coast, King
>Country, Thames Valley, Golden Bay and later this week Bay of Plenty),
>some roads are too dangerous to walk and Transit NZ will not permit it.
>On the West Coast, they are overcoming this by bicycling, which Transit
>NZ will allow. In the Wairarapa, permission to walk the Rimutaka Hill has
>not been given, but some are planning to walk the Rimutaka Incline (the
>old rail track) to keep faith the the "feet on the ground" concept.
>There is also a another core Hikoi group whose primary task is the formal
>and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the
>welcomes and farewells. They walk some of the distances, but mostly
>travel by bus ...
Ho Ho Ho HO! "They travel by bus".
>... and join the Hikoi at the places where it stops.
>Anybody who shares the Hikoi concerns and accepts the Hikoi leaders'
>authority can join the Hikoi at any point and walk/jog/run as far as they
>wish, taking part in the forums and meetings.
>And - as we have seen - they do.
And it can not possibly be any one group of people walking the length
of the hikoi, which is what I have been saying from the very
beginning.
Patrick Dunford
write unto us...
What lie? There is none. I have seen no press releases anywhere that
state exactly "a group of people would walk the entire distance". I have
not posted any such information. If you can find it, present it,
otherwise you might be the next one to be called a liar :(
Patrick Dunford
04:47:52 GMT in nz.politics:<361ee08e...@news.iprolink.co.nz> didst
write unto us...
>On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:39:27 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>
>>On the main Highway One route, there are feet on the ground all the way,
>>but not everyone walks every inch of it.
>
>This is contrary to what has been variously claimed/implied/reported
>right up to the end of the hikoi. See one of my other posts with a
>number of quotes.
I have only seen one newspaper article, not repeated anywhere else that I
have been able to discover, and apparently disowned by the Anglican media
people, possibly as inaccurate.
>
>>This is for both speed and
>>safety reasons.
>>So in some places, to cover the distances, walkers split into groups and
>>each covers a sector of the route simultaneously.
>>At 5 km an hour (brisk
>>walk) this means that four groups can cover 20 km in an hour.
>>In other areas, a van carries walkers/runners, and with groups taking
>>turn to cover a set distance. Or a group of runners may take a sector of
>>the route and run that, rejoining the rest who travel by mini-van.
>
>Or bus, if there is enough of them.
The distance is still being covered by people on foot. It was never
stated otherwise.
>>On the "feeder" Hikoi routes (currently East Coast, West Coast, King
>>Country, Thames Valley, Golden Bay and later this week Bay of Plenty),
>>some roads are too dangerous to walk and Transit NZ will not permit it.
>>On the West Coast, they are overcoming this by bicycling, which Transit
>>NZ will allow. In the Wairarapa, permission to walk the Rimutaka Hill has
>>not been given, but some are planning to walk the Rimutaka Incline (the
>>old rail track) to keep faith the the "feet on the ground" concept.
>>There is also a another core Hikoi group whose primary task is the formal
>>and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the
>>welcomes and farewells. They walk some of the distances, but mostly
>>travel by bus ...
>
>Ho Ho Ho HO! "They travel by bus".
As anyone (well nearly anyone) can see, this was not the main group of
walkers, but a supporter's group. It is not at all out of place to have
support people or vehicles on such an activity as this.
>>... and join the Hikoi at the places where it stops.
>>Anybody who shares the Hikoi concerns and accepts the Hikoi leaders'
>>authority can join the Hikoi at any point and walk/jog/run as far as they
>>wish, taking part in the forums and meetings.
>>And - as we have seen - they do.
>
>
>And it can not possibly be any one group of people walking the length
>of the hikoi, which is what I have been saying from the very
>beginning.
So what? No-one ever pretended that it was. All this is about is your
opportunity for another rant.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>>There is also a another core Hikoi group whose primary task is the formal
>>>and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the
>>>welcomes and farewells. They walk some of the distances, but mostly
>>>travel by bus ...
>>
>>Ho Ho Ho HO! "They travel by bus".
>
>As anyone (well nearly anyone) can see, this was not the main group of
>walkers, but a supporter's group. It is not at all out of place to have
>support people or vehicles on such an activity as this.
I had intended to let this matter drop but I cannot resist this
opportunity.
You were talking about "another core Hikoi group whose primary task is
the formal and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the
forums, the welcomes and farewells". You then add "They walk some of
the distances, but mostly travel by bus ...". Presumably this will be
one of the buses which you have always up this instant denied were
being used. Now you excuse this apparent turnaround by saying " this
was not the main group of walkers, but a supporter's group".
Do you really mean that the important formal and collective aspects
of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the welcomes and farewells,
are left to a mere bunch of supporters? Hell! This is where the most
important parts of the publicity are to be garnered! They are no more
likely to be mere supporters than is the Bishop of Wellington. Even if
they were mere supporters the locals would be insulted by having to
welcome and listen to speeches from mere hangers on.
What you have just written is tantamount to saying that the plump
bellies who are taking the credit for the hikoi have walked very
little of its length.
Never mind ...
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Fri, 09 Oct 1998
>22:01:06 GMT in nz.politics:<36267f20...@news.iprolink.co.nz> didst
>write unto us...
I have already quoted examples at tedious length, including giving
confirming URLs. So don't start calling me a liar until you can show
the references don't exist. That will be hard. Some of them are your
own writings.
Patrick Dunford
21:40:21 GMT in nz.politics:<3621c360...@news.iprolink.co.nz> didst
write unto us...
>On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:42:25 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>>>There is also a another core Hikoi group whose primary task is the formal
>>>>and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the
>>>>welcomes and farewells. They walk some of the distances, but mostly
>>>>travel by bus ...
>>>
>>>Ho Ho Ho HO! "They travel by bus".
>>
>>As anyone (well nearly anyone) can see, this was not the main group of
>>walkers, but a supporter's group. It is not at all out of place to have
>>support people or vehicles on such an activity as this.
>
>I had intended to let this matter drop but I cannot resist this
>opportunity.
I don't think you can resist any opportunity to put about your fictional
bias against the Hikoi.
>You were talking about "another core Hikoi group whose primary task is
>the formal and collective aspects of the Hikoi: the meetings, the
>forums, the welcomes and farewells". You then add "They walk some of
>the distances, but mostly travel by bus ...". Presumably this will be
>one of the buses which you have always up this instant denied were
>being used.
I said no such thing. I stated that support vehicles went with the
walkers, and that supporters were bused from different parts of the
country.
What I did state unequivocally, was that the notion put about by you and
some other equally imaginative but sadly mislead people, that the Hikoi
was mostly driven in buses, was false.
>Now you excuse this apparent turnaround by saying " this
>was not the main group of walkers, but a supporter's group".
So it was. So what?
>Do you really mean that the important formal and collective aspects
>of the Hikoi: the meetings, the forums, the welcomes and farewells,
>are left to a mere bunch of supporters? Hell! This is where the most
>important parts of the publicity are to be garnered! They are no more
>likely to be mere supporters than is the Bishop of Wellington. Even if
>they were mere supporters the locals would be insulted by having to
>welcome and listen to speeches from mere hangers on.
What a load of rubbish. There were local people involved every step of
the way who were not walking the whole distance or any distance of the
Hikoi. That is quite a normal thing with such an event. Each person
chooses how much involvement they want.
>What you have just written is tantamount to saying that the plump
>bellies who are taking the credit for the hikoi have walked very
>little of its length.
I have said no such thing. All that we have discussed is the presence of
supporting groups. The people you refer to walked as much or as little as
they wanted.
Patrick Dunford
write unto us...
>On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:42:22 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>Yea verily Eric Stevens (stev...@iprolink.co.nz) on Fri, 09 Oct 1998
>>22:01:06 GMT in nz.politics:<36267f20...@news.iprolink.co.nz> didst
>>write unto us...
You have attempted to subtly altered the meaning to fit your biased
viewpoint, claiming that a statement said a completely different thing
from what it actually says. Until you can provide proof to support your
allegations I shall not withdraw mine.
Eric Stevens
(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>>>What lie? There is none. I have seen no press releases anywhere that
>>>state exactly "a group of people would walk the entire distance". I have
>>>not posted any such information. If you can find it, present it,
>>>otherwise you might be the next one to be called a liar :(
>>
>>I have already quoted examples at tedious length, including giving
>>confirming URLs. So don't start calling me a liar until you can show
>>the references don't exist. That will be hard. Some of them are your
>>own writings.
>
>You have attempted to subtly altered the meaning to fit your biased
>viewpoint, claiming that a statement said a completely different thing
>from what it actually says. Until you can provide proof to support your
>allegations I shall not withdraw mine.
I quoted the various references in full. I then drew my own
conclusions. You not answered any of these directly but have always
gone off at a tangent - but what is new?
Harry Johnston
> What I did state unequivocally, was that the notion put about by you and
> some other equally imaginative but sadly mislead people, that the Hikoi
> was mostly driven in buses, was false.
You've already said that some sections were walked in relay; were the
walkers driven to the start of their relay section and/or from the
end? If so, then they *were* mostly driven - most of the man-miles
covered would not be on foot.
I gather that nobody - not one person - actually walked the entire
distance? I'm afraid that does give the whole thing the air of a
propaganda stunt. Serious protestors would do the thing properly.
> What a load of rubbish. There were local people involved every step of
> the way who were not walking the whole distance or any distance of the
> Hikoi. That is quite a normal thing with such an event. Each person
> chooses how much involvement they want.
I don't suppose anybody has worked out any rough numbers - how many
man-miles were actually walked in total? How many were driven?
Harry.
---
Harry Johnston, om...@ihug.co.nz
"He more or less based his whole reputation as a
technologist on the fact that he couldn't get his
PC to work." - Angus McIntyre on Jerry Pournelle
Patrick Dunford
20:44:37 GMT in nz.politics:<362705ec...@news.iprolink.co.nz> didst
write unto us...
>On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 21:36:13 +1300, patrick...@hotmail.com
>(Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>>>What lie? There is none. I have seen no press releases anywhere that
>>>>state exactly "a group of people would walk the entire distance". I have
>>>>not posted any such information. If you can find it, present it,
>>>>otherwise you might be the next one to be called a liar :(
>>>
>>>I have already quoted examples at tedious length, including giving
>>>confirming URLs. So don't start calling me a liar until you can show
>>>the references don't exist. That will be hard. Some of them are your
>>>own writings.
>>
>>You have attempted to subtly altered the meaning to fit your biased
>>viewpoint, claiming that a statement said a completely different thing
>>from what it actually says. Until you can provide proof to support your
>>allegations I shall not withdraw mine.
>
>I quoted the various references in full. I then drew my own
>conclusions. You not answered any of these directly but have always
>gone off at a tangent - but what is new?
I have been rubbishing your conclusions since they first appeared. This
is simply for you, an attempt to nail the church for failing to meet your
excessively and obsessively narrow and legalistic interpretation of what
the Hikoi was. That is really all this discussion is about. There is no
point in discussing anything else until this basic fact is acknowledged.
You have not been able to prove that the organisers deliberately misled
the public or anyone else about what the Hikoi was and that is the crux
of this discussion.
Patrick Dunford
GMT in nz.politics:<3621808...@news.ihug.co.nz> didst write unto
us...
>patrick...@hotmail.com (Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>> What I did state unequivocally, was that the notion put about by you and
>> some other equally imaginative but sadly mislead people, that the Hikoi
>> was mostly driven in buses, was false.
>
>You've already said that some sections were walked in relay; were the
>walkers driven to the start of their relay section and/or from the
>end? If so, then they *were* mostly driven - most of the man-miles
>covered would not be on foot.
I expect one vehicle in front would drop them off and a second vehicle
following would collect them. The schedules did not list relay walking as
occurring very much in the South Island.
>I gather that nobody - not one person - actually walked the entire
>distance? I'm afraid that does give the whole thing the air of a
>propaganda stunt. Serious protestors would do the thing properly.
They decided it was to be done in a month, at the same time acknowledging
it would not be possible for any one person to walk the entire distance.
I have not seen anything to back up Eric's claims that this was
deliberately misrepresented. Whether or not you think this indicates non-
commitment, the fact is that it was a very big undertaking that was made.
>
>> What a load of rubbish. There were local people involved every step of
>> the way who were not walking the whole distance or any distance of the
>> Hikoi. That is quite a normal thing with such an event. Each person
>> chooses how much involvement they want.
>
>I don't suppose anybody has worked out any rough numbers - how many
>man-miles were actually walked in total? How many were driven?
>
That would, I think, be an essentially meaningless number.
As I have pointed out, all sections were covered either by someone on
foot, or cycling. Foot was the preferred method and cycling was only used
where road conditions were too dangerous for walkers.
Harry Johnston
>> I don't suppose anybody has worked out any rough numbers - how many
>> man-miles were actually walked in total? How many were driven?
>
> That would, I think, be an essentially meaningless number.
> As I have pointed out, all sections were covered either by someone on
> foot, or cycling.
It just seems to me that even if you allow relaying (dubious) the
equivalent of only one person has actually walked from the ends of the
country. As a symbol, that isn't all that impressive - it doesn't
justify as much fuss as the ceremonial parts would imply.
Patrick Dunford
GMT in nz.politics:<36239c4...@news.ihug.co.nz> didst write unto
us...
>patrick...@hotmail.com (Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>> I don't suppose anybody has worked out any rough numbers - how many
>>> man-miles were actually walked in total? How many were driven?
>>
>> That would, I think, be an essentially meaningless number.
>> As I have pointed out, all sections were covered either by someone on
>> foot, or cycling.
>
>It just seems to me that even if you allow relaying (dubious) the
>equivalent of only one person has actually walked from the ends of the
>country. As a symbol, that isn't all that impressive - it doesn't
>justify as much fuss as the ceremonial parts would imply.
The equivalent of only one person - you are assuming there was only one
person in a particular place at any one time, which is in fact an
incorrect assumption.
--
Patrick Dunford, Christ Church, NZ
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/
-----------------------------------------------------
On The Move - The Christian Democrats Newsletter
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/3405/otm/
Harry Johnston
>> It just seems to me that even if you allow relaying (dubious) the
>> equivalent of only one person has actually walked from the ends of the
>> country. As a symbol, that isn't all that impressive - it doesn't
>> justify as much fuss as the ceremonial parts would imply.
>
> The equivalent of only one person - you are assuming there was only one
> person in a particular place at any one time, which is in fact an
> incorrect assumption.
I had two reasons for supposing this to be the case: firstly, you were
using the singular ("all sections were covered either by someone on
foot, or cycling") and secondly Eric has quoted a letter by an
eye-witness who saw a single runner with two vans.
Were all sections (ALL sections) covered by at least two people either
on foot or cycling? Three? How many?
Patrick Dunford
GMT in nz.politics:<3629ed2...@news.ihug.co.nz> didst write unto
us...
>patrick...@hotmail.com (Patrick Dunford) wrote:
>
>>> It just seems to me that even if you allow relaying (dubious) the
>>> equivalent of only one person has actually walked from the ends of the
>>> country. As a symbol, that isn't all that impressive - it doesn't
>>> justify as much fuss as the ceremonial parts would imply.
>>
>> The equivalent of only one person - you are assuming there was only one
>> person in a particular place at any one time, which is in fact an
>> incorrect assumption.
>
>I had two reasons for supposing this to be the case: firstly, you were
>using the singular ("all sections were covered either by someone on
>foot, or cycling") and secondly Eric has quoted a letter by an
>eye-witness who saw a single runner with two vans.
How reliable was Eric's eye-witness?
There would have been a vehicle in front and behind, whether they were
"full of Maori" or whether the correspondent was exaggerating is not
known.
Eric shows his bias in accusing me and the organisers of dishonest
behaviour while failing to acknowledge that his correspondent could be
dishonest.
>Were all sections (ALL sections) covered by at least two people either
>on foot or cycling? Three? How many?
You would have to ask the organisers. The numbers would have varied from
area to area.