A new thread....
David
Hi y'all....
finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion
and days of hand-wringing I have decided to start a
thread about absolutely nothing.
David.
hellicopter
Its not about nothing, its about you making a decision
about a thread about nothing.
Damnit!
Roger Dewhurst
What is new about that?
R
Nicolaas Hawkins
David
Yes, i know you would have difficulty with that! Lol...
Geopelia
"Nicolaas Hawkins" <grump...@t.large> wrote in message
news:1803ulzc55xp$.dlg@kopje.xnet.nz...
Are we going to have a debate about absolute zero?
Or is that only temperature.
Enkidu
Cheers,
Cliff
--
The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
the same old personalities show through.
Enkidu
WorkHard
> Hi y'all....
I snipped your loose thread.
liberty
Not a lot gets Dooley of his arse and contribute more than one or two
words . With all the topics that have been covered in the group. You
would think a wordsmith like Dooley would be in his element. No just a
blank.
So maybe a topic on nothing will inspire him.
Then there is Patrick
There is nothing about Tin Peas, poos Brackets, Nasty Nats, tweets
and real workers.
And that is not the problem, Signing ones full name and address in
invisible font really pisses him off.
Then there is Richbot
Nothing is a bit like the labour leadership
Just not a lot there
Nothing
Jack
Speaking your mind as it were?
vitw
> Should run for a while....
Unless some nazi shuts it down :P
apairateef
"David" <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b417889c-2c13-41e6...@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
I like that...it's relaxing :D
S
David
> "David" <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
pystol
Enkidu
> On , , Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:09:06 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
>
>> David wrote:
>>> Hi y'all....
>>>
>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
>>> nothing.
>>>
>> That reminds me - I must go and vacuum.
>
> household duties.
>
Yeah, unfortunately both my wives are sick at the moment.
Enkidu
> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
> researched and non informative thread.
>
Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
happened to the other part?
Geopelia
"Msg. Scooter" <monsigno...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:o8k6g598rfsulnu9e...@4ax.com...
> On , , Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:39 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
> <enkid...@com.cliffp.com> wrote:
>
>>Msg. Scooter wrote:
>>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
>>> <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi y'all....
>>>>
>>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
>>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
>>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> Well you certainly know a lot about it so I am sure it will be a un
>>> researched and non informative thread.
>>>
>>Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
>>Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
>>
>>If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
>>'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
>>happened to the other part?
>
> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
> was
> God."
>
God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
I don't know much about physics, but wouldn't that have produced energy and
eventually mass? The Big Bang?
But how on earth did whoever wrote Genesis know that?
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
> I don't know much about physics, but wouldn't
> that have produced energy and eventually mass?
That is Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was
light."
But the physics you refer to questions that, with not until a dozeon
or so versus later at Genesis 1:16 that the source of that light (ie
the sun) was created (and interestingly, Genesis 1:16 also claims the
moon is also a source of light, which is false)
Geopelia
> On , , Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:40:44 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
>
Well you can believe that. But who did write Genesis? It wouldn't be Moses.
Patrick FitzGerald
<misanthropi...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
>But the physics you refer to questions that, with not until a dozeon
>or so versus later at Genesis 1:16
How amazing Miss Ann
dozeon [sic] or so of versus [sic]
Patrick
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> "Msg. Scooter" <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8837g55pglanbo09o...@4ax.com...
>
> > On , , Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:40:44 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
>
> >>"Msg. Scooter" <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:o8k6g598rfsulnu9e...@4ax.com...
> >>> On , , Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:39 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
>
> >>>>Msg. Scooter wrote:
> >>>>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
>
> >>>>>> Hi y'all....
>
> >>>>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
> >>>>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
> >>>>>> nothing.
>
> >>>>> Well you certainly know a lot about it so I am sure it will be a un
> >>>>> researched and non informative thread.
>
> >>>>Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
> >>>>Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
>
> >>>>If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
> >>>>'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
> >>>>happened to the other part?
>
> >>> I'm a theist so I think you know my answer.
> >>> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
> >>> was
> >>> God."
>
> >>God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
> >>I don't know much about physics, but wouldn't that have produced energy
> >>and
> >>eventually mass? The Big Bang?
> >>But how on earth did whoever wrote Genesis know that?
>
> > Um, I think you are trying to tease me here, God told them of course.
>
> Well you can believe that. But who did write Genesis? It wouldn't be Moses.
No one person: its a mash of various versions of the same myth,
assembled and refined over time up until about 500BC when it's
'current form' kind-a stabilised around the myth we have now. Moses
is thought to have been one of many contributors.
Brian Dooley
<phil...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
David Rohl might have some ideas.
--
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Geopelia
> On , , Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:52:44 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
>
No, it wouldn't matter to those who take it literally as the Word of God.
But people who are interested in the time ( e.g. Minoan Crete and the Trojan
War) when legend was developing into history would like to know these
things.
We do know quite a lot about Egypt in the time of Moses now.
Personally I prefer the Greek myths and legends.
liberty
>
> >Personally I prefer the Greek myths and legends.
>
> so.
Good God a no confrontational post by Scooter.
Must of got onto some good stuff in the car park today.
Geopelia
> On , , Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:56 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
> saying
> so.
>
Thank you. Being agnostic I don't have any axe to grind.
It is interesting comparing the Old Testament stories with what is known
about those times, such as the possibility that the Ten Plagues of Egypt may
have been caused by the Thera eruption.
Could the Crossing of the Red Sea and the drowning of Pharaoh's army have
been the result of a large tsunami coming up from the Indian Ocean?
The New Testament of course gives an insight from a Christian point of view
of the Roman world, and Rome's dealings with a rather unruly small tribe on
the fringes of its empire. By then we are in historical times. I wonder if
somewhere there is a Roman account of the trial of Jesus, or perhaps the
Centurion's memoirs waiting to be discovered.
The Epistles to the various cities show what was concerning the common
people of those times in their everyday lives, in a civilization that ran on
slave power.
Revelation seems to have been written soon after the destruction of Pompeii
by the Vesuvius eruption. I wonder how much the writer knew about that. It's
something to ponder, isn't it?
David
> "Msg. Scooter" <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8837g55pglanbo09o...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On , , Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:40:44 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
>
> >>"Msg. Scooter" <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:o8k6g598rfsulnu9e...@4ax.com...
> >>> On , , Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:39 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
>
> >>>>Msg. Scooter wrote:
> >>>>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
>
> >>>>>> Hi y'all....
>
> >>>>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
> >>>>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
> >>>>>> nothing.
>
> >>>>> Well you certainly know a lot about it so I am sure it will be a un
> >>>>> researched and non informative thread.
>
> >>>>Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
> >>>>Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
>
> >>>>If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
> >>>>'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
> >>>>happened to the other part?
>
> >>> I'm a theist so I think you know my answer.
> >>> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
> >>> was
> >>> God."
>
> >>God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
> >>I don't know much about physics, but wouldn't that have produced energy
> >>and
> >>eventually mass? The Big Bang?
> >>But how on earth did whoever wrote Genesis know that?
>
> > Um, I think you are trying to tease me here, God told them of course.
>
> Well you can believe that. But who did write Genesis? It wouldn't be Moses.
There is an alternative rendition of Genesis and Exodus called the
Book of
Japher. The Old Testament refers to it.
it sheds light on those events
Geopelia
"David" <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54ac570a-a21a-4073...@e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
-----------------
I googled Book of Japher, but couldn't find it. I also looked for Book of
Japheth, no luck.
But I found some lovely new words (new to me!) in sites about the Apocrypha.
I found sites about the Book of Jasher, but that was written much later.
Isn't Google fun sometimes :-)
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> On , , Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:28:43 -0800 (PST), Re: A new thread....,
> It must be something very appealing to you for you to keep doing it.
I just post facts. We know you dont like truth, given you admission
you 'sometimes post untruth', so I can understand why my posting of
truth and fact irks you so
Perhaps you need to ask yourself why you have a need to beleive in
such fiction, contradiction, malice, and falsehoods as is in your
bible. Ask yourself why your life is so inadequate that you cling to
the rituals derived from it.
If your god was so omnipotent, and your religious faith so strong,
anything I post ought to be quashed immediately.
But part of you that used to be human knows I am right, and that is
why you get upset, whine, and lash out as you do.
David
> "David" <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yep you are right onto it... more than a typo..!!!
No wonder i could not find it this morning!
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> On , , Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:09:30 -0800 (PST), Re: A new thread....,
> Why do you think you have the right to try and convince people that their
> beliefs are wrong.
The very same thing that gives you the 'right' to be an offensive and
obnoxious ignorant twat: free speech.
> >Perhaps you need to ask yourself why you have a need to beleive in
> >such fiction, contradiction, malice, and falsehoods as is in your
> >bible. Ask yourself why your life is so inadequate that you cling to
> >the rituals derived from it.
>
> That doesn't answer my question at all, you merely display
> an arrogance that you are right and have a duty to try and
> destroy someones beliefs.
You just dont like it that I point out the glaring inconsistencies,
double standards, and contradictions in your religious delusions.
> It is obvious that you have been very badly let down
> by some Christians in the past and now proceed
> to tar everyone with the same brush.
I have answered this spurious, simplistic (like you) attempt at pop-
psych101 of yours before: I have not been let down by the church: it
was members of the church who took me in, gave me shelter, and
schooled me when I was a youth. I have a great deal of respect for
their actions and will always be grateful. But that fact does not
mean that I am compelled to accept their beleifs.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> Why do you have to point this out? [snip]
> Why else would you go to the extreme lengths you
> are going to presently to disillusion people
A more important question is why do your religious values fear truth -
and its own scripture?
Why does discourse on your bible frighten you so much?
hellicopter
> Msg. Scooter wrote:
>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
>> <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi y'all....
>>>
>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
>>> nothing.
>>
>> Well you certainly know a lot about it so I am sure it will be a un
>> researched and non informative thread.
>>
> Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
> Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
>
> If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
> 'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
> happened to the other part?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff
>
Nothing is a word we give to a phenomena. The Buddhists
have understood since before Jesus, before Socrete, that
the name of a thing is not the thing itself.
We live in a bubble of time and space that does not
exist to outside observation, temporarily we think we
think we are, and so we temporarily are.
Does this mean there is a bubble of time and space, no,
because the enlightenment taught us the opposite
is also true. That the name of a thing does not have
to exist for it to have meaning for us.
We are makers, who have only partial control over our
existence, the part we say is positive is the part we
can control, the part we that is negative is the part
we cannot control.
The error is when the first century thinkers turn
post-modern notions into real objects. Thus ignoring
greek and pre-greek understanding and post modern
understandings, to true to restart their faith.
Its ignorant to talk about faith as sacred, shut up already.
There is no God but the guy I see in the mirror each morning
smiling back at me. He's a good God because he's not stupid
all powerful with armies to do his evil bidding by killing
each other for his favor.
hellicopter
> On , , Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:39 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
> <enkid...@com.cliffp.com> wrote:
>
>>Msg. Scooter wrote:
>>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
>>> <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi y'all....
>>>>
>>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
>>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
>>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> Well you certainly know a lot about it so I am sure it will be a un
>>> researched and non informative thread.
>>>
>>Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
>>Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
>>
>>If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
>>'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
>>happened to the other part?
>
> I'm a theist so I think you know my answer.
> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
> was God."
So now we play whose your God, twenty questions that you get to
choose the answer for your ethical and moral rule set.
The problem is however, as science discovered, all the answers
provided by priest were about priests and their needs.
Debate and Democracy predate Jesus. So don't give me any talk about
your historical values being more revered since mine go back far further.
So There!
>
> --
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
> to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
> Anatole France.
Geopelia
"misanthropic_curmudgeon" <misanthropi...@breastcancermail.com>
wrote in message
news:b86684c8-f4d8-42c4...@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
--------------------------
Anything can be said here, quite uncensored, and long may it continue!
But would it be a good idea to have some sort of "Nihil Obstat" like books
have, to show which posts are not going to be detrimental to faith and
morals?
Trend Micro shows which websites are safe, but that only involves possible
viruses.
Perhaps there could be some program like Net Nanny that concerned people
could use in newsgroups for religious reasons.
Geopelia
> On , , Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:09:10 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
> <phil...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>
>>"misanthropic_curmudgeon" <misanthropi...@breastcancermail.com>
>>wrote in message
>>news:b86684c8-f4d8-42c4...@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>On Nov 23, 7:14 pm, Msg. Scooter <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>[snip]
>>> Why do you have to point this out? [snip]
>>> Why else would you go to the extreme lengths you
>>> are going to presently to disillusion people
>>
>>A more important question is why do your religious values fear truth -
>>and its own scripture?
>>
>>Why does discourse on your bible frighten you so much?
>>--------------------------
>>
>>Anything can be said here, quite uncensored, and long may it continue!
>>
>>But would it be a good idea to have some sort of "Nihil Obstat" like books
>>have, to show which posts are not going to be detrimental to faith and
>>morals?
>
"Nihil Obstat" indicates that the book is safe for Catholics to read.
There isn't anything to show that a book is heretical or "dirty", as far as
I know.
But doesn't the Censor inspect every book that is imported? Perhaps he
could give it a rating as is done for films.
> When the Australian Govt. set up their site filtering programme to stop
> people
> looking at pornography or specific forms of pron, immediately someone
> leaked the
> complete list to WikiLeaks.
>>
>>Trend Micro shows which websites are safe, but that only involves possible
>>viruses.
>>Perhaps there could be some program like Net Nanny that concerned people
>>could use in newsgroups for religious reasons.
>
> I'm sure there is even a specific newsgroup for religious discussions,
> nz.religion
There seem to be a large number of "religion" newsgroups.
There is nz.soc.religion, but that seems to be mainly daily Bible readings.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> On , , Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:00:12 -0800 (PST), Re: A new thread....,
>
> misanthropic_curmudgeon <misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 23, 7:14 pm, Msg. Scooter <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >[snip]
> >> Why do you have to point this out? [snip]
> >> Why else would you go to the extreme lengths you
> >> are going to presently to disillusion people
>
> >A more important question is why do your religious values fear truth -
> >and its own scripture?
>
Then why do you whine when I post scripture (to show that your
interpretation of your religion is not founded on scripture)?
> >Why does discourse on your bible frighten you so much?
>
> It doesn't, that is what theology is all about.
Then why do you whine when I post scripture (to show that your
interpretation of your religion is not founded on scripture)?
teile
> > On , , Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:56 +1300, Re: A new thread...., "Geopelia"
> >>But people who are interested in the time ( e.g. Minoan Crete and the
> >>Trojan
> >>War) when legend was developing into history would like to know these
> >>things.
That period in the north-east Mediterranean from the rise of the
kingdom of Hatti to the downfall Minoan Crete and Mycenaean Greece is
fascinating. And it offers endless possibilities for speculating
about the spread of a possible bull cult and other religious ideas
into Europe and elsewhere.
> >>We do know quite a lot about Egypt in the time of Moses now.
> It is interesting comparing the Old Testament stories with what is known
> about those times, such as the possibility that the Ten Plagues of Egypt may
> have been caused by the Thera eruption.
> Could the Crossing of the Red Sea and the drowning of Pharaoh's army have
> been the result of a large tsunami coming up from the Indian Ocean?
I think you're chasing the pot at the end of the rainbow if you treat
the Bible as history and any of these stories as actual events. (For
background Google "The Bible and Interpretation" and read the essays
on minimalism - and they're hard to beat for sheer invective between
"scholars".) There is no historical evidence for the existence of
anyone named in the Bible before King Jehu of Israel in the late 9th
Century BC, and that includes Moses and the other patriarchs.
The stories of the ten plagues of Egypt and the crossing of the Red
Sea among others bear the hallmarks of typical folk/religious myths
that have been worked into the religious story. The various
(inconsistent) stories of the Hebrew conquest of Palestine are
disproved by archaeology and the very name "Hebrew" first appears as
the name of lawless refugees in the Judaean highlands from the
droughts of the 16th Century BC.
> The New Testament of course gives an insight from a Christian point of view
> of the Roman world, and Rome's dealings with a rather unruly small tribe on
> the fringes of its empire. By then we are in historical times. I wonder if
> somewhere there is a Roman account of the trial of Jesus, or perhaps the
> Centurion's memoirs waiting to be discovered.
Who knows? All we have at the moment is Josephus, and he is hardly a
historian in any modern sense, merely a collector and teller of tales.
> The Epistles to the various cities show what was concerning the common
> people of those times in their everyday lives, in a civilization that ran on
> slave power.
>
> Revelation seems to have been written soon after the destruction of Pompeii
> by the Vesuvius eruption. I wonder how much the writer knew about that. It's
> something to ponder, isn't it?
It was rather later that it popped up as a candidate for inclusion in
the Bible, under the claim that it was written by one of the
disciples. Even at the time many church officials claimed that it was
a work of recent origin, and it seems to have got in as a result of
political compromise between different factions.
LW
Geopelia
"teile" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:74339a4e-0d78-497d...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
-------------
"Pharaoh" is not named. Years ago he was thought to be Ramses II, but others
have been put forward, possible depending on the date of the Exodus, but
some suggest Akhenaten and even Hatshepsut!
------------
The stories of the ten plagues of Egypt and the crossing of the Red
Sea among others bear the hallmarks of typical folk/religious myths
that have been worked into the religious story. The various
(inconsistent) stories of the Hebrew conquest of Palestine are
disproved by archaeology and the very name "Hebrew" first appears as
the name of lawless refugees in the Judaean highlands from the
droughts of the 16th Century BC.
> The New Testament of course gives an insight from a Christian point of
> view
> of the Roman world, and Rome's dealings with a rather unruly small tribe
> on
> the fringes of its empire. By then we are in historical times. I wonder if
> somewhere there is a Roman account of the trial of Jesus, or perhaps the
> Centurion's memoirs waiting to be discovered.
Who knows? All we have at the moment is Josephus, and he is hardly a
historian in any modern sense, merely a collector and teller of tales.
----------------------
The text (translated) is on Project Gutenberg.
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/2/8/5/2850/2850.txt
The numbers are not very accurate, but it seems an interesting account.
------------------
> The Epistles to the various cities show what was concerning the common
> people of those times in their everyday lives, in a civilization that ran
> on
> slave power.
>
> Revelation seems to have been written soon after the destruction of
> Pompeii
> by the Vesuvius eruption. I wonder how much the writer knew about that.
> It's
> something to ponder, isn't it?
It was rather later that it popped up as a candidate for inclusion in
the Bible, under the claim that it was written by one of the
disciples. Even at the time many church officials claimed that it was
a work of recent origin, and it seems to have got in as a result of
political compromise between different factions.
LW
-------------
It has been used as a prophesy of events throughout history, even today. But
so has the Book of Daniel!
Earth hit by an asteroid? or a mishap with the Hadron collider?
"Dies irae dies illa
Solvet saeclum in favilla."
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> On , , Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:10:12 -0800 (PST), Re: A new thread....,
>
>
>
> misanthropic_curmudgeon <misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 24, 9:46 pm, Msg. Scooter <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On , , Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:00:12 -0800 (PST), Re: A new thread....,
>
> >> misanthropic_curmudgeon <misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Nov 23, 7:14 pm, Msg. Scooter <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >[snip]
> >> >> Why do you have to point this out? [snip]
> >> >> Why else would you go to the extreme lengths you
> >> >> are going to presently to disillusion people
>
> >> >A more important question is why do your religious values fear truth -
> >> >and its own scripture?
>
> >> We don't.
>
> >Then why do you whine when I post scripture (to show that your
> >interpretation of your religion is not founded on scripture)?
>
Strange that you fail to show or prove it, but simply resort to
dribbling down your front.
> I would be failing everyone if I allowed you to continue to post lies.
So now you are taking on some net-cop role?
Coming from the person (and I use that term very loosely when applying
it to a malfunctioning sub-human like you) who has previously
blathered on claiming rights to free-speech and his god-given right to
impose his delusions on all and sundry? A 'person' like yo who openly
and freely admitted to posting, and I quote, "untruth"??
Net-kook applies to you, Greg. Not net-cop.
> >> >Why does discourse on your bible frighten you so much?
>
> >> It doesn't, that is what theology is all about.
>
> >Then why do you whine when I post scripture (to show that your
> >interpretation of your religion is not founded on scripture)?
>
> Because you are wrong.
Again, you have yet to show it.
teile
> "Dies irae dies illa
> Solvet saeclum in favilla."
Aargh! Now you've started Britten's "War Requiem" running in my head,
and it'll still be there tomorrow. . . .
LW
David
> I think you're chasing the pot at the end of the rainbow if you treat
> the Bible as history and any of these stories as actual events. (For
> background Google "The Bible and Interpretation" and read the essays
> on minimalism - and they're hard to beat for sheer invective between
> "scholars".) There is no historical evidence for the existence of
> anyone named in the Bible before King Jehu of Israel in the late 9th
> Century BC, and that includes Moses and the other patriarchs.
The personage of Melchisedek can be discerned in actual history.
he was the priest to and for Abraham and the prototpe for both
King David [a warrior usurper king] and Jesus Christ.
M. in history was certainly the Aten Ai whose history and life, as
well as his tomb is well recorded. Putting together the events
of those times it is possible to discern the movement into what
became known as Israel of a people.
-D.
Geopelia
LW
Sorry!
"Inter oves locum praesta,
et ab haedis me sequestra,
statuens in parte dextra."
And I'm the giddiest goat of the lot.
hellicopter
> On , , Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:05:23 +1300, Re: A new thread...., hellicopter
> Strawman.
Relevance. God doesn't exist and so is on topic for the thread
since the debate is about absolutely nothing. Your strawman is
a strawman since implies we are talking about something important.
David
> "teile" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:bc314408-8fa4-43df...@w19g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 26, 1:22 am, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > "Dies irae dies illa
> > Solvet saeclum in favilla."
>
> Aargh! Now you've started Britten's "War Requiem" running in my head,
> and it'll still be there tomorrow. . . .
>
I learned to sing some of that. Was in a choir for two or three
years...
singing in harmony is great, a great buzz
our neighbour was a radio nut. As kids we used his
old 78's as flying saucers...
we have so any genres and styles coming out our airs
er... ears...
I like our local peasant sounds... "Pa Mai" sang in the doorway
of the packing shed
One great buzz was singing "Now is the hour" in Maori
with my late mate Hone when Michael King the historian
came to visit the deep south
Po ata rau... ka moe to ihi nei...
liberty
> Msg. Scooter wrote:
> > On , , Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:05:23 +1300, Re: A new thread...., hellicopter
>
> >>Msg. Scooter wrote:
>
> >>> On , , Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:39 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
>
> >>>>Msg. Scooter wrote:
> >>>>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You don’t really know that. God might or might not exist
But is god real. As Jesus freaks portray him.
You would have to be on some pretty good weed to believe that crap.
hellicopter
Either God exist or he does not exist in the minds of people.
We can investigate whether he's in their heads by dumping said
believer into a brain scanner.
> But is god real. As Jesus freaks portray him.
As a rule I tend to let people fantazy all they like,
but when they start telling me I have to give up taxes
to save their measly run of bad debt addiction, on top of
the tax cuts they've already received by cutting services
that I use, and then loading me up with more of a proportion of
the tax take, that's when their trickle down God gets real for me.
Should the bums pay their for their own follies?
Jesus freaks once dictated the laws of the land, no longer,
so not my problem.
> You would have to be on some pretty good weed to believe that crap.
Shoveling crap is what we humans do.
teile
> singing in harmony is great, a great buzz
Yes, indeed.
> our neighbour was a radio nut. As kids we used his
> old 78's as flying saucers...
The things that children do. When I was a sprog one of my friend's
parents had a working Edison phonograph, with some unbroken cylinders
still playable on it. They weren't by the the time we'd finished with
them. And the phonograph wasn't too good either after we finished
investigating it.
This reminds me that we used to have some 78s at home, and I wonder
what happened to them. They lived in the piano seat. I'd like to
hear the one with the "Vatican Rag" and "Grandma's Lysol" on it again.
> I like our local peasant sounds... "Pa Mai" sang in the doorway
> of the packing shed
>
> One great buzz was singing "Now is the hour" in Maori
> with my late mate Hone when Michael King the historian
> came to visit the deep south
>
> Po ata rau... ka moe to ihi nei...
I thought that the vote for greatest NZ song a few years ago was a
travesty because of the lack of Maori songs. The result reflected the
cultural background of the voters, not the unbiased musical worth of
the songs. I suppose that was inevitable, but how could anyone
actually prefer that inane ditty that won over so much else? For some
reason, the iconic NZ pop song to me is Dean Waretini's "The Bridge".
I think it was the trumpets.
LW
First you get down down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow you head with great respect
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect.
David
> I thought that the vote for greatest NZ song a few years ago was a
> travesty because of the lack of Maori songs. The result reflected the
> cultural background of the voters, not the unbiased musical worth of
> the songs. I suppose that was inevitable, but how could anyone
> actually prefer that inane ditty that won over so much else? For some
> reason, the iconic NZ pop song to me is Dean Waretini's "The Bridge".
> I think it was the trumpets.
>
> LW
Yep... depends what crowd you talk to...
"Blue Smoke" was a great hit. My cousin married the son
of Pixie Williams.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> We can investigate whether he's in their heads by dumping said
> believer into a brain scanner.
Been done. Neurological activity of people experiencing religious
experinces is indistinguable from various mental health episodes, and
can be replicated with some drug combinations.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> with your claims to understanding.
Here is some (more) jesus for you.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/25/spray-on-jesus-photo_n_370827.html
liberty
A must have for all Jesus freaks.
David
That does not surprise me at all...
some cultures, dionysion cultures harvest these
experiences, and apollonian cultures sanction them.
Do they monitor the brainwaves of great inventors?
Geopelia
"David" <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:59f1db5c-dd5a-4e22...@a10g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
--------------------------
There's a lot to be said for the Maenad and the Bassarid when the hounds of
spring are on winter's traces.
Pass the wine, sister!
David
> "Msg. Scooter" <monsignor.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:o8k6g598rfsulnu9e...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On , , Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:39 +1300, Re: A new thread...., Enkidu
> > <enkidu....@com.cliffp.com> wrote:
>
> >>Msg. Scooter wrote:
> >>> On , , Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:36:40 -0800 (PST), A new thread...., David
> >>> <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Hi y'all....
>
> >>>> finally after months of debate, weeks of discussion and days of
> >>>> hand-wringing I have decided to start a thread about absolutely
> >>>> nothing.
>
> >>> Well you certainly know a lot about it so I am sure it will be a un
> >>> researched and non informative thread.
>
> >>Firstly, Scoots, why is there something rather than nothing? Why did the
> >>Universe start existing? How was the something created out of nothing?
>
> >>If the Universe was, as some say, created out of nothing by the
> >>'nothing' splitting into a positive part and a negative part, what
> >>happened to the other part?
>
> > I'm a theist so I think you know my answer.
> > "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
> > was
> > God."
>
> I don't know much about physics, but wouldn't that have produced energy and
> eventually mass? The Big Bang?
> But how on earth did whoever wrote Genesis know that?
Well one person who did write Genesis was Jasher.
Probably not the only scribe and scholar, but the only
one named and mentioned in the old testament.
Geopelia
______
The Book of Jasher follows Genesis closely. But did one person write the two
books? Which was written first?
David
> "David" <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Latest research indicates that they were written at the same time.
it is entirely possible that the narrative surrounding 'the fall of
man'
and the expulsion from 'the garden of eden' along with the destruction
of Sodom and Gomorrah are conflations of the same underlying event.
Similarly the personages of Adam and Eve along with Sarai and Abram
are conflations of the same people.
My own studies indicate that "The Lord" of the bible was an actual
person.
Geopelia
If we take the Archbishop's view that Creation took place in 4004 BC as a
rough guide, that puts the incidents early in Genesis at around six thousand
years ago.
That is too early for the Thera eruption, which might have resulted in the
ten plagues of Egypt.
But was there some other large volcanic event that could have affected
southern Iraq which took place at around that time?
The angel with the flaming sword could have been a comet.
Could Noah's flood have been a large tsunami? Perhaps there was a small
asteroid strike?
There is so much we don't know from just before the first recorded history.
And if "The Lord" was an actual person, I wonder who he could have been.
Perhaps the ruler of Ur or Babylon? or an early Pharaoh?
Egypt must have had some kind of civilization before the earliest surviving
pyramids.
Which brings us back to Atlantis, wherever that may have been. Could some
event have affected both Sodom and Atlantis at the same time?
It's a fascinating subject, isn't it?
David
> > My own studies indicate that "The Lord" of the bible was an actual
> > person.
>
> If we take the Archbishop's view that Creation took place in 4004 BC as a
> rough guide, that puts the incidents early in Genesis at around six thousand
> years ago.
The archbishops chronology is no longer tenable.
> That is too early for the Thera eruption, which might have resulted in the
> ten plagues of Egypt.
During the Amarna period there is evidence of a pandemic.
A lot of gold was mined at that time- enough to sent
gold edifigies to Babylon as dowry for princesses.
The widening of the Empire based on an invasion from
western Asia. Led to rapid expansion. As evidenced
in Leviticus there was a lot of focus on quarantine of
skin disease especially.
Josephus recorded that the body going into Israel
had lepers amongst them.
>
> But was there some other large volcanic event that could have affected
> southern Iraq which took place at around that time?
> The angel with the flaming sword could have been a comet.
> Could Noah's flood have been a large tsunami? Perhaps there was a small
> asteroid strike?
The legend of Noah was derived from the flooding on the Nile.
With colonial expansion there was a wide array of animals
and birds around the expansion of Egypto-Babylonian culture
at that time.
David
> There is so much we don't know from just before the first recorded history.
>
> And if "The Lord" was an actual person, I wonder who he could have been.
> Perhaps the ruler of Ur or Babylon? or an early Pharaoh?
A mid dynasty Pharoah, the Aten Ai. Or Ay...
http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/ib205/ay.html
> Egypt must have had some kind of civilization before the earliest surviving
> pyramids.
Oh yes...
>
> Which brings us back to Atlantis, wherever that may have been. Could some
> event have affected both Sodom and Atlantis at the same time?
According to a recent history channel show Atlantis was on Crete. it
was
his by a tsunami and then attacked by Greece.
Apteryx
>
> And if "The Lord" was an actual person, I wonder who he could have been.
> Perhaps the ruler of Ur or Babylon? or an early Pharaoh?
> Egypt must have had some kind of civilization before the earliest surviving
> pyramids.
There is no suggestion in the Bible that Abraham was a monotheist, and
presumably originally simply believed in the Semitic gods. Enlil was
sort of the CEO of the Semitic gods (not the top god in the hierarchy -
at least originally, although in some cults he became so - but the
youngish god who was given authority by the heavenly board of directors
to make decisions and get things done). The name Enlil meant "Wind Lord"
(he controlled the weather), but he was often referred to simply as "The
Lord". So if Abraham did address a god as "The Lord", he probably
thought he was speaking with Enlil.
Apteryx
teile
> If we take the Archbishop's view that Creation took place in 4004 BC as a
> rough guide, that puts the incidents early in Genesis at around six thousand
> years ago.
If there really were such a thing as inherited guilt, I'd be troubled
about now since my 12xgreat-uncle was the Archbishop of Armagh who
ordained the loony Bishop Ussher. . . .
> Egypt must have had some kind of civilization before the earliest surviving
> pyramids.
There's a lot of archaeological evidence, as you would expect. We
have a pretty good picture of Egypt from the settlement of the Nile
Valley when it became habitable at the end of the Pluvial Period (very
roughly mid-7th Century BC) to the beginning of written evidence in
the Early Dynastic period.
> Which brings us back to Atlantis, wherever that may have been.
The Atlantis story was an invention by Plato, a fictional state
illustrating his theories, and not presented as something that
actually happened.
> It's a fascinating subject, isn't it?
So long as you don't start confusing all this fiction with history.
That way madness lies.
LW
John Cawston
We seem to have regressed a long way since I received religious
instruction more than 50 years ago.
Back then, even being taught by nuns, priests and brothers, you
were told in no uncertain terms that the Bible was a "story", and
that such comments ascribed to Christ as "Destroy this temple and
I shall raise it again in three days" did not.. could not refer
to the temple in Jerusalem; that much that was written had to be
allegorical..
They didn't go so far as to suggest the Bible was bunk, and
there's enough history about to verify parts of it, but certainly
they did a lot to downplay any literal translations.
The other surprising thing is how much emphasis non believers put
on the Bible.. vastly more than most believers for whom faith
springs from other sources.
The very thought that the Bible would appeal to all but a handful
of young NZers when there's a world of play in the open spaces
to be had should show that.
JC
>
> LW
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> Back then, even being taught by nuns, priests and brothers, you
> were told in no uncertain terms that the Bible was a "story",
That's because you were raised a Catholic: that lot have never really
been bound by the bible and just make (other) stuff up! :)
David
I went to a protestant church more by choice than by coercion.
I learned that "the bible" was an old bearded man who sat
up in the sky somewhere. I thought the Rev. David Calvert
was 'the good shepherd'.
Have always been friendly with the Dooleys. Martin Heaney,
the ancestral leader of the Hibernians in our valley set down
a policy of fraternity which largely exists to this day.
Israel sits on the pivot between Africa, Asia and Europe. To
tease apart all the cultures, languages and people milling
around here until today is a formidable task.
There is no doubt that all European and Asians crossed
the land bridge there at some point. [with some cross-
fertilisation via Gibralter, and later the Mediteranean].
As our world stands on the brink of success or disaster
we must look beyond the ideas vision and concepts
of Europe, Greece and Rome to understand both our
language and our culture.
And possibly also our future...
David.
John Cawston
> On Dec 2, 1:31 pm, John Cawston <rewar...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> [snip]
>> Back then, even being taught by nuns, priests and brothers, you
>> were told in no uncertain terms that the Bible was a "story",
>
> That's because you were raised a Catholic:
Which was a minority religion in NZ back then. However, it was
quite clear that the Proddy's had no more time for the Bible than
the Doolins.
that lot have never really
> been bound by the bible and just make (other) stuff up! :)
A lot less than those atheist scientists involved in AGW.
JC
JC
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> time for the Bible than the Doolins.
Only the bits they like. I think that is a key differentiator between
Prods and Micks: Prods just ignore the bits in the bible they dont
like, and the Micks ignore the bits in the bible they dont like and
make up stuff they do. Maybe that is why the Presbyterians are such a
dry-ball bunch of dowagers!
> > [Catholics] have never really
> > been bound by the bible and just make (other) stuff up! :)
>
> A lot less than those atheist scientists involved in AGW.
No comment from me: I've been quite particular about mainatining my
agnosticism on the AGW argument!
teile
<misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 2:18 pm, John Cawston <rewar...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > it was quite clear that the Proddy's had no more
> > time for the Bible than the Doolins.
>
> Only the bits they like. I think that is a key differentiator between
> Prods and Micks: Prods just ignore the bits in the bible they dont
> like, and the Micks ignore the bits in the bible they dont like and
> make up stuff they do.
Actually very few have had the strength of faith to actually apply the
teachings of Christ in their own lives. St Francis of Assisi comes to
mind, but his true followers were persecuted by the Church. Mother
Theresa perhaps and a few like her, but I have trouble thinking of any
since the early days of the faith.
I don't think there will be all that many in the kingdom of heaven.
> Maybe that is why the Presbyterians are such a
> dry-ball bunch of dowagers!
Oi! not all dowagers are dry. Or Presbyterians.
LW
I sat next to the duchess at tea.
She said, "Do you fart when you pee?"
I replied, "Not a bit!
Do you belch when you shit?"
and thought that was one up for me.
Geopelia
On 2 Dec, 10:02, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > My own studies indicate that "The Lord" of the bible was an actual
> > person.
>
> If we take the Archbishop's view that Creation took place in 4004 BC as a
> rough guide, that puts the incidents early in Genesis at around six
> thousand
> years ago.
The archbishops chronology is no longer tenable.
------
Of course not, for the Creation. But it does give some idea of when Adam and
Eve lived, whoever they were.
Isn't the Jewish creation date 3761 BC?
-------------------
> That is too early for the Thera eruption, which might have resulted in the
> ten plagues of Egypt.
During the Amarna period there is evidence of a pandemic.
A lot of gold was mined at that time- enough to sent
gold edifigies to Babylon as dowry for princesses.
The widening of the Empire based on an invasion from
western Asia. Led to rapid expansion. As evidenced
in Leviticus there was a lot of focus on quarantine of
skin disease especially.
Josephus recorded that the body going into Israel
had lepers amongst them.
>
> But was there some other large volcanic event that could have affected
> southern Iraq which took place at around that time?
> The angel with the flaming sword could have been a comet.
> Could Noah's flood have been a large tsunami? Perhaps there was a small
> asteroid strike?
The legend of Noah was derived from the flooding on the Nile.
---------
There is a theory that it referred to the filling of the Black Sea. There
was a TV program about it some time ago.
------------
Geopelia
Yes, there is a theory that Atlantis was on Crete.
(Knossos?) Destroyed at the time of the Thera eruption. Crete would have
been exposed to the tsunami, and probably earthquakes.
The legend of Theseus and the Minotaur comes from that time.
There is also a theory that Atlantis was on the mid Atlantic Ridge, which
opened up and swallowed it.
Geopelia
"teile" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:7b05dacc-ac99-478a...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
LW
There have been plenty of mad theories about Atlantis!
But didn't Plato claim he got the story from the Egyptian priests?
Brian Dooley
The Hittites were biblical fiction unil the discovery of
Hattusas.
--
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Geopelia
"Brian Dooley" <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:t09ch5523j2afeg6u...@4ax.com...
The Hyksos (Shepherd Kings) ruled Egypt once. There has been some
suggestion that Joseph was in Egypt at the time of the Hyksos kings. Weren't
they Hittites?
David
> "Brian Dooley" <bria...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
Um a big topic...considering that the rulers constantly married into
other nations, for a variety of purposes, it is often hard to
determine
nationality.
Abraham bought his burial place at Mamre from a named Hittite
which indicates they were allies.
Much layer King David sent a Hittite Uriah out to battle and took
his sheila. [who became an ancestress of Jesus]. This indicates
that they were allies, or mercenaries.
david was most assuredly a shepherd king... a military ruler who
succeeded the kings Saul and Jonathan.
-d.
David
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos#Who_were_the_Hyksos.3F
Note that the scarab bearing the name of the Hyksos King Apophis
has also the forerunner of the coptic cross on it.