Iranian suicide brigades & "the art of martyrdom." (long)
NZDude
The act of martyrdom is often celebrated by the Iranian theocracy. Most
recently, Iranian President-Elect Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad, in his second TV
appearance since his election victory, spoke July 25, 2005 on Iranian
Channel 1 in praise of "the art of martyrdom."
The day after Ahmadi-Nejad's TV appearance, the London Arabic-language daily
Al-Sharq Al-Awsat published a report about his spiritual advisor, Ayatollah
Mohammad Misbach Yazdi. The report advised Iranians on how to volunteer for
the Iranian regime-sponsored volunteer martyrdom squad, and mentioned an
Iranian women's volunteer group that is dedicated to carrying out martyrdom
operations against U.S., British, and Israeli forces.
The subject of Iranian martyrdom seekers was also the topic of a recent
program on Al-Arabiya TV, which is discussed below.
Ahmadi-Nejad on the Art of Martyrdom
The following are excerpts from a speech by Iranian President-Elect Mahmoud
Ahmadi-Nejad, which aired July 25, 2005 on Iranian Channel 1. In it, he
praises martyrdom operations and states that Islam will conquer the world.
(To view this clip, visit http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=782.)
Ahmadi-Nejad: "We want art that is on the offensive. Art on the offensive
exalts and defends the noble principles, and attacks principles that are
corrupt, vulgar, ungodly, and inhuman.
"Art reaches perfection when it portrays the best life and best death. After
all, art tells you how to live. That is the essence of art. Is there art
that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of
martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity. Those who wish to
undermine this principle undermine the foundations of our independence and
national security. They undermine the foundation of our eternity.
"The message of the [Islamic] Revolution is global, and is not restricted to
a specific place or time. It is a human message, and it will move forward.
"Have no doubt... Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer
all the mountain tops of the world."
Spiritual Advisor of Iran's President-Elect Calls on Iranian Volunteers to
Carry Out Martyrdom Operations
Ayatollah Mohammad Misbah Yazdi, the spiritual leader of Iranian
President-Elect Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad, issued an announcement to the Iranian
people, calling upon them to volunteer for an Iranian organization of
martyrs. [1]
The announcement read: "Acts of martyrdom are the great pinnacle of the
[Iranian] people and the height of its courage. The commander [Iranian
Leader] Khamenei has announced registration for the forces of martyrdom in
all of Iran's provinces, in order to defend Islam and to fight the enemies
of Islam. Our sacred organization, [the organization of martyrs belonging]
to the Islamic Republic, is intended for those interested in carrying out
shahada [martyrdom]. The volunteer, male or female, will join specialized
courses. Brother and sister believers who want to defend Islam are invited
to contact [us] at POB 664-1653, Tehran, and to send two photos, a copy of
their birth certificate, and a request to join the martyrs' corps."
According to the report, the organization is headed by Elias Naderan, leader
of the conservative faction of the Iranian parliament, former intelligence
officer in the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, and an ally of President-Elect
Ahmadi-Nejad. A few months ago, he founded an organization called Zeitoon,
intended for women and men interested in committing martyrdom operations
"against the enemies of Iran and Islam" - especially against U.S., British,
and Israeli forces.
Ayatollah Masbah Yazdi attended one of Naderan's conventions, and emphasized
to the hundreds of participants the need to volunteer for the martyrdom
operation training courses.
One of the volunteers, Mohammad Reza Siyari, who recently fled from Iran to
Turkey, told Al-Sharq Al-Awsat that during a visit to Ayatollah Masbah
Yazdi's office in Qom, the latter told the volunteers: "The gates of
Paradise have opened for you. There are beautiful black-eyed virgins waiting
for you on the banks of rivers of honey."
Siyari further said that the volunteers undergo training in four
Revolutionary Guards and "Army of Jerusalem" camps.
Al-Arabiya TV Report on Iranian Martyrdom Seekers
The following are excerpts from a report about the movement of "martyrdom
seekers" in Iran. Al-Arabiya TV aired this report on July 2, 2005. (To view
this clip, visit http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=736.)
Martyrdom-seeking movement member Vesaly: My name is Vesaly... We are first
and foremost Muslims, and it is our duty to defend our brothers and sisters
throughout the world. We don't need permission from anybody. This has to do
with our religious duty and responsibilities. This is our choice, and we
have no fear. We adhere to the legacy of our late leader, Imam Khomeini."
Crowd: "There is no God but Allah. There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad
is Allah's messenger."
Reporter: "These young women have forsaken the temptations of life, and have
taken the hard way. Indeed, they have chosen martyrdom as a way of
liberating the Islamic lands. This is what they say.
"40,000 time bombs in Iran - this is the number of volunteers so far, and
the registration is still open. There is no distinction between men and
women, Sunnis or Shiites. 'We all sacrifice for the sake of Islam,' they
chant. This is the movement of martyrdom seekers, whose goals and
organizational structure are still unclear. They refused to give further
details, but did not conceal their determination to sacrifice their lives.
The reason [is] what America has done in the holy places of Najaf and
Karbala."
Firooz Rajai, a movement leader: "In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the
Compassionate. The movement of martyrdom seekers began after the American
campaign against Najaf and Karbala in Iraq, over a year ago. The religious
scholars decided that such a movement should be established in this country,
the majority of which are Shiite, in order to support their brothers,
especially following the experience of the war that was forced on Iran by
the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq."
Reporter: "This is a symbolic grave of the first man who tried to get rid of
Salman Rushdie. Here there are also symbolic graves commemorating the people
who killed hundreds of American and French soldiers in Lebanon, in 1983.
"This young mother from Palestine, who sacrificed her life and blew herself
up at an Israeli checkpost, is a role model for the movement's members, who
believe this is the only way to liberate the Palestinian lands, especially
the Al-Aqsa Mosque."
Firooz Rajai: "In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. We
will not allow the Zionists to build their Solomon Temple in the place where
the Al-Aqsa Mosque stands. They have not succeeded so far, and they never
will. We are willing to sacrifice our bodies and souls to defend the Al-Aqsa
Mosque. Our goal is to achieve martyrdom by way of true Jihad. This is the
true path to which we strive. We don't need a fatwa on this, since we get
our fatwas from the Koran and from all the authorities on Islamic law. We
vow to turn into bombs that will explode at anyone who wishes to desecrate
our holy places."
Reporter: "The movement denies any connection to the Iranian government, and
considers itself an independent organization. Although the government
occasionally expresses reservations about the movement of martyrdom seekers
and its operations, the movement has used government buildings for its
training, and some Revolutionary Guards members have publicly defended
them."
Iranian MP Hamid-Reza Haji-Babai: "Martyrdom seekers may exist in every
country, and in Iran, they have beliefs that they hold sacred. This is a
popular movement, which cannot take the form of an organization. Iran has so
far managed, democratically and diplomatically, to maintain relations with
all countries and preserve its status, despite the American hostility. The
oppressive, inhuman, and undemocratic American behavior in recent years has
led to the creation of martyrdom-seeking movements everywhere."
Reporter: "After receiving theory lessons, the volunteers undergo secret
training, far from the media. Even though the movement's leaders refrain
from disclosing the kind of activities that are included in this training,
they emphasize that this is not a military organization, and that no special
or complex training is required - a few days are enough to train the
volunteers."
Firooz Rajai: "So far, we have not sent any brigade out of the country, and
have not clashed with government opposition to us. We maintain law and
order, and our activity is clear and serves Islam. This does not mean that
we are not prepared to report for duty anytime, anywhere. We believe in
combining ideology and action. Our movement is not a symbolic one. Our goal
is well known. When the time comes, martyrdom will be inevitable. There are
many NGOs in Iran that support the Palestinian cause, and we maintain
relations and cooperate with them, as well as with Hamas and the Islamic
Jihad. We meet with the representatives of the two movements in Tehran, and
we hope this will be successful."
Reporter: "Whether in Iraq, Palestine, or any Islamic country, the movement
of martyrdom seekers is ready for action, but the Iranian government still
does not know whether the movement has already sent volunteers to Iraq or
even to Israel."
Ali Samadi, a movement leader: "As everyone can see, the Zionists attribute
no significance to the Arab and Islamic governments. They continue their
aggressive policies to fulfill their goals. The world considers the Israeli
military to be the fifth most powerful force, and its security apparatus to
be the second most powerful in the world. Since they only understand the
language of force, our new weapon of martyrdom operations is bound to change
the balance of power. Even the separation wall they are building won't
prevent the martyrdom operations and the changing of the balance. The
Iranian youth takes pride in [the fact that] this movement was founded after
the Islamic Revolution in order to create a core of resistance against the
occupiers in a way unmarred by flaws, as was the case with the Al-Qaeda
organization, for example. We are not afraid of the American fleets or the
British weapons in Iraq. We vow to become time bombs in the event of any
aggression on our land."
Reporter: "Thus, they await death with happiness and joy. In their view,
martyrdom for the sake of Allah is the sweetest thing."
[1] Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), July 26, 2005.
--
49ers faithful for life - unless they move them to L.A.
"We should reach out economically, diplomatically, and militarily to all
Muslims who oppose fanatic terrorists. We should offer the future of a
better way of life for every Palestinian who would like to live in peace and
prosperity. We should offer to every Muslim country that we are not
anti-Muslim, we are anti-fanatic."
- Newt Gingrich
Roger_Nickel
> http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD94505
>
> The act of martyrdom is often celebrated by the Iranian theocracy. Most
> recently, Iranian President-Elect Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad, in his second TV
> appearance since his election victory, spoke July 25, 2005 on Iranian
True patriots for the glory of God!. Maybe one unwinnable war is not enough for
the US although the main issue for the Iranains seems to be the Israeli
treatment of Palestine. That Iranian MP seems to be on to something :-
Sue Bilstein
wrote:
How true, Roger, these people are anti-American. Maybe even more so
than the New Zealanders.
WeeWillyWonka
>True patriots for the glory of God!. Maybe one unwinnable war is not enough for
>the US although the main issue for the Iranains seems to be the Israeli
>treatment of Palestine. That Iranian MP seems to be on to something :-
>
> Iranian MP Hamid-Reza Haji-Babai: "Martyrdom seekers may exist in every
> country, and in Iran, they have beliefs that they hold sacred. This is a
> popular movement, which cannot take the form of an organization. Iran has so
> far managed, democratically and diplomatically, to maintain relations with
> all countries and preserve its status, despite the American hostility. The
> oppressive, inhuman, and undemocratic American behavior in recent years has
> led to the creation of martyrdom-seeking movements everywhere."
Some of the anti-USA wankers, such as yourself, will never stop
"understanding" the terrorists and hating the USA. You don't get it,
do you? Your behaviour is no longer in defense of freedom. You are
betraying your people, your culture, your freedom.
willy
Roger_Nickel
I am critical of the way that the US is conducting itself in the middle east, is
this the same as hate to you?. What word would you use to describe someone who
really hates?. One thing I do hate is newspeak, double plus ungood.
Roger_Nickel
And speaking of "understanding" the terrorists, this piece from the Washington
Post helps put things in context. Quoted verbatim because registration required
to view :-
Revolt of Privilege, Muslim Style By David Ignatius
Wednesday, July 27, 2005; A21
When you read reports that the Muslim terrorists who
bombed the London Underground may have gotten together
for a pre-attack whitewater rafting trip in Wales, you
realize that this is a very particular enemy -- and one
that is recognizable to students of history.
This is the revolt of the privileged, Islamic
version. They have risen so far, so fast in the dizzying
culture of the West that they have become enraged,
disoriented and vulnerable to manipulation. Their
spiritual leader is a Saudi billionaire's son who grew
up with big ideas and too much money. He created a new
identity for himself as a jihad leader, carrying the
banner of a pristine Islam from the days of the Prophet
Muhammad. The zenith of his warped amalgam of ancient
and modern was having holy warriors fly airplanes into
skyscrapers.
Reading some of the London bombers' biographies, you
realize the depth of their cultural confusion: "Shahzad
Tanweer, 23, came from one of Beeston's most respected
families," wrote the London Independent about one of the
July 7 bombers. And according to The Post, he had just
received a red Mercedes from his dad.
This is not Patty Hearst or the Weather Underground
-- it's a far more deadly revolt of privilege. But
people who were students in the 1960s will remember the
phenomenon: the idealistic kids from elite public and
private schools who went to college, felt guilty about
their comfort amid a brutal world and joined the
Progressive Labor Party to ally with oppressed Third
World workers. There is a cult aspect to this jihad --
an extreme version of the logic that has always drawn
disaffected kids to self-destructive behavior.
Take a tour of some of the jihadist Web sites and
you'll see a kind of fantasy world -- in which angry,
alienated Muslims are stewing in scenarios of revenge.
Young Muslims can buy videos of Iraqi insurgents setting
off roadside bombs and firing mortars in "Iraqi R.A.W."
and "Iraqi R.A.W. 2: The Anger Brigade." Or they can
travel with Chechen fighters in "Russian Hell," Vols. 1,
2, 3 and 4.
The Islamic extremists are often described as
"Salafists," and it's interesting to explore just what
this says about their spiritual moorings. The Arabic
word salaf means "past," and the Salafists are often
said to be trying to re-create the pure values of the
ancient ones who were the prophet's companions.
According to Vincenzo Oliveti in his fine study of
the Salafists, titled "Terror's Source," their religious
teaching casts aside the traditional canon -- the
"Sunna" that make up Sunni Islam -- in favor of a
have-it-your-way smorgasbord. A favorite saying of the
Salafists, according to Oliveti, is nahnu rijal wa hum
rijal , which he translates loosely as "We are all men
so why should we accept that anybody knows better than
us?"
What will stop this revolt of privileged Muslims?
One possibility is that it will be checked by the same
process that derailed the revolt of the rich kids in
America after the 1960s -- namely, the counter-revolt of
the poor kids. Poor Muslims simply can't afford the
rebellion of their wealthy brethren, and the havoc it
has brought to the House of Islam. For make no mistake:
The people suffering from jihadism are mostly Muslims.
I can't imagine that the poor Egyptians who've been
struggling to make a living in the resort towns around
Sharm el-Sheikh are too happy this week. The jihadists
who came bumping over the mountains to detonate last
weekend's bombs may have been thinking of the 72 virgins
that awaited them in heaven. But the Egyptian fellah is
thinking about where he's going to get his next paycheck
to feed his family.
And I can't imagine that the poor Iraqis whose
families are being blown away by daily suicide bombs
feel a great kinship with the Saudi jihadists who have
been slipping across the border via Syria, trying to
slake their angst about modern life through martyrdom.
There is a ferment in the Islamic world that is
pushing for change, not death. I had a glimpse into it
last week at a fascinating compilation of recent Iranian
films, sponsored by, of all things, a Pentagon strategy
group called the Highlands Forum. It was described as an
evening of "strategic listening," and we watched a
stunning documentary called "Zinat: One Special Day,"
about an Iranian woman in a poor village who dares to
run for her local council. The men of her village have
talked and talked about paving the road and never gotten
it done. She defies the traditionalists. She wins the
election; she paves the road. That's the power that will
turn back the jihad of the privileged.
Redbaiter
Objections to the US's war on terrorism are politically motivated.
Such objections originate from the global leftist movement, a
political ideology underpinned by hatred of everything that freedom
holds dear. You propagate the words of these scum here on this forum,
then you will be judged by those words.
> What word would you use to describe someone who
> really hates?.
There are many words such words, most of them relating to some kind
of mental disorder, for example 'leftism'.
> One thing I do hate is newspeak, double plus ungood.
Why..? Its recognised as a product of the big government collective
social framework that you and your ilk persistently advocate for..
Roger_Nickel
A war fought against an abstract noun (terrorism) with guns missiles and bombs
is going to be difficult if not impossible. This is not a political statement,
it is simple logic. If freedom does not include the freedom to criticise, then
what does it include?. Do you really think everyone who disagrees with you is
"scum"?.
Anyone who disagrees with you is "leftist" and has a mental disorder?, the old
Soviet Union had hordes of people detained in psychiatric institutions and
undergoing treatment for "mental disorders"; is this what you advocate?.
Do you agree with Willie that criticism of the policies of a foreign
government is the same as "betraying your people, your culture, your freedom."?.
WeeWillyWonka
>" For make no mistake:
>The people suffering from jihadism are mostly Muslims."
Never mind the people who are being blown to bits. It's the Muslims
back in the villages and towns who are the true victims,eh? Pathetic.
>She defies the traditionalists. She wins the
>election; she paves the road. That's the power that will
>turn back the jihad of the privileged.
What a warm and fuzzy story about the Iranian woman. Let's give women
here power like they have back in Iran huh? Madness.
willy
Sue Bilstein
wrote:
>
>And speaking of "understanding" the terrorists, this piece from the Washington
>Post helps put things in context. Quoted verbatim because registration required
>to view :-
>
>Revolt of Privilege, Muslim Style By David Ignatius
>Wednesday, July 27, 2005; A21
>
> What will stop this revolt of privileged Muslims?
>One possibility is that it will be checked by the same
>process that derailed the revolt of the rich kids in
>America after the 1960s -- namely, the counter-revolt of
>the poor kids. Poor Muslims simply can't afford the
>rebellion of their wealthy brethren, and the havoc it
>has brought to the House of Islam. For make no mistake:
>The people suffering from jihadism are mostly Muslims.
>
> I can't imagine that the poor Egyptians who've been
>struggling to make a living in the resort towns around
>Sharm el-Sheikh are too happy this week. The jihadists
>who came bumping over the mountains to detonate last
>weekend's bombs may have been thinking of the 72 virgins
>that awaited them in heaven. But the Egyptian fellah is
>thinking about where he's going to get his next paycheck
>to feed his family.
>
> And I can't imagine that the poor Iraqis whose
>families are being blown away by daily suicide bombs
>feel a great kinship with the Saudi jihadists who have
>been slipping across the border via Syria, trying to
>slake their angst about modern life through martyrdom.
Well, exactly. The jihadis will be defeated by an alliance between
ordinary Muslims and those Westerners who can see which way the wind
is blowing, and are willing to do something about it.
That means that the West will have to hold Muslims to account on the
one hand, and help them to achieve their reasonable aims on the other.
I believe that in due course, people will recognise that G W Bush has
been following this sort of strategy.
steve
He's just saying what everyone else has been saying: Bush has done more
to aid Bin Laden's cause than any other single person alive today.
steve
Remember the American CIA toppled their democratically elected
government in the 1950s...and inflicted the Shah on Iran.
If they are anti-American, America has worked very hard to give them
good reason to be.
WeeWillyWonka
>He's just saying what everyone else has been saying: Bush has done more
>to aid Bin Laden's cause than any other single person alive today.
You mean you're no longer alive, Steve? Are you martyring yourself
tonight? Is this posting your suicide note?
willy
Roger_Nickel
like they have here in New Zealand huh?.
steve
Go back and read what the MP said.
You clearly didn't read it.....and if you did, you didn't understand it.
Try again.
WeeWillyWonka
>WeeWillyWonka wrote:
>> What a warm and fuzzy story about the Iranian woman. Let's give women
>> here power like they have back in Iran huh? Madness.
>
>like they have here in New Zealand huh?.
"Let's"? "Let us"? Who is this "us"? You mean you and the Iranians?
You're one of them, by your own words.
There is no "us". The Iranians are in the other camp. They want to
blow you to bits. In your case, I find their motivation
understandable. But the realists among us will continue to try to
defend you, as thankless and tasteless a task as that might be. Don't
say thanks or anything.
willy
WeeWillyWonka
Gee, guess what, Steve. I don't care what a terrorist or a
terrorist-harbourer says. They are the enemy. We do not need to give
them our ears, only the tip ends of our bullets. That is a
requirement for survival, in a war.
You are most ostrich-like, Steve. It's a shame. Versatility is a
good thing, But you will never be. C'est La Vie.
willy
baggly grimmel
"WeeWillyWonka" <w...@freenet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:42eb559f...@news.iconz.co.nz...
I bloody well hope so.
Roger_Nickel
together like it or not. How would you react if the country which spends more on
its military than the rest of the world put together threatened your country
with attack including thinly veiled threats of the use of nuclear weapons?. I
don't feel at all threatened by Iran, but then I'm not threatening to blow them
up with nuclear bombs and nor do I live in a country threatening to do so.
Extreme right wing Ahmadinejad was elected president in Iran against a
background of American military posturing against his country. In this respect
the American campaign against Iran has been counterproductive unless
destabilisation is the aim. Yes, I am critical of American actions in the middle
east and no, I don't apologise. About the possible benefit arising from this is
that long time enemies Iran and Iraq are friends again and come to think of it,
this may explain the sudden increase in American concern over Iran.
Roger Nickel
together like it or not. How would you react if the country which spends more on
its military than the rest of the world put together threatened your country
with attack including thinly veiled threats of the use of nuclear weapons?. I
don't feel at all threatened by Iran, but then I'm not threatening to blow them
up with nuclear bombs and nor do I live in a country threatening to do so.
Extreme right wing Ahmadinejad was elected president in Iran against a
background of American military posturing against his country. In this respect
the American campaign against Iran has been counterproductive unless
destabilisation is the aim. Yes, I am critical of American actions in the middle
east and no, I don't apologise. About the possible benefit arising from this
WeeWillyWonka
>Extreme right wing Ahmadinejad was elected president in Iran...
What a remarkable statement! First of all, militant Islamic regimes
are left-wing not right-wing, in that they seek total control over
their populace and deny basic freedoms. Secondly, Ahmadinejad was not
elected, he was installed in an "election" which was boycotted by the
populace. The results were completely phony. This is well-known
except to left-wing sycophants like yourself.
> Yes, I am critical of American actions in the middle
>east and no, I don't apologise. About the possible benefit arising from this
>situation is that long time enemies Iran and Iraq are friends again and come to
>think of it, this may explain the sudden increase in American concern over Iran.
In one breath you condemn USA actions in the MidEast and also say Iraq
& Iran's new-found friendship is a benefit, although Iraq's revised
position is courtesy of the USA? Incoherent. Dizzying.
I've wasted enough time on you. Your opinions aren't worth the Nickel
you claim they are.
willy
Roger_Nickel
> On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Roger Nickel <rni...@actrix.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>Extreme right wing Ahmadinejad was elected president in Iran...
>
>
> What a remarkable statement! First of all, militant Islamic regimes
> are left-wing not right-wing, in that they seek total control over
> their populace and deny basic freedoms. Secondly, Ahmadinejad was not
> elected, he was installed in an "election" which was boycotted by the
> populace. The results were completely phony. This is well-known
> except to left-wing sycophants like yourself.
Fascism and despotism are leftwing by your definition?.
>
>
>>Yes, I am critical of American actions in the middle
>>east and no, I don't apologise. About the possible benefit arising from this
>>situation is that long time enemies Iran and Iraq are friends again and come to
>>think of it, this may explain the sudden increase in American concern over Iran.
>
>
> In one breath you condemn USA actions in the MidEast and also say Iraq
> & Iran's new-found friendship is a benefit, although Iraq's revised
> position is courtesy of the USA? Incoherent. Dizzying.
>
> I've wasted enough time on you. Your opinions aren't worth the Nickel
> you claim they are.
Suit yourself
steve
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, steve <st...@maybeorconwillworknow.org.nz> wrote:
>
>>Go back and read what the MP said.
>>You clearly didn't read it.....and if you did, you didn't understand it.
>>Try again.
>
>
> Gee, guess what, Steve. I don't care what a terrorist or a
> terrorist-harbourer says.
So you still haven't read it.
If you had, you would know you were talking shit.....as opposed to
talking shit unknowingly (as you usually do).
Roger_Nickel
>
> Fuck off with your worthless time wasting crap, until you learn
> something real you fucken leftist drongo. Fuck off and stop
> voting my country into totalitarianism you ignorant communist
> dirtbag..
If I valued your opinion I would be offended but, in the light of your last post
in this thread, I don't so I aren't. What's up with you, are you some petty
minded hypocritical cryptofascist so comsumed with your own crushing sense of
insecurity and inadequacy that you can tolerate no disagreement however minor it
may seem with your own world view?. Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical
question. I responded to your first post in this thread against my better
judgement because it was reasonably civil, but I made the "mistake" of
disagreeing with you. If you wonder why I hardly ever respond to your posts my
answer is -- your attitudes suck and I won't be responding at all in future. Get
lost, creep.
WeeWillyWonka
My essential point (in case you genuinely are not getting it) is that
it is counterproductive to get into a dialogue with those bent on your
destruction. You don't bargain with the wolf; you shoot him. If you
were one of the three little piggies, you'd be arguing with the other
two that "we" should open the front door and talk with the wolf. That
would make a good PC fable. Would have to rename one of those piggies
"Steve", though.
willy