Gawd Brian Tamaki (aka King David)
retro
hard to believe the gullibility of some.
There was a young man from Te Awamutu
who preached the value of utu
and revelled in what wealth brings
with only basic education
he took over the nation
to become the king of kings
vitw
He's not even a real bishop.
To become a bishop, you need to be ordained and certified by another
bishop, who himself/herself has a lineage of certification going all the
way back to the original disciples, in a manner known as 'apostolic
succession'.
Geopelia
"vitw" <nos...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:4aea01ae$1...@news.orcon.net.nz...
Would Confirmation carried out by "Bishop" Tamaki be valid?
8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands
the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands,
he may receive the Holy Ghost.
8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because
thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Acts 8
Simony was rife in the Middle Ages and seems to be forgotten today,
but it's still around.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> To become a bishop, you need to be ordained and certified by another
> bishop, who himself/herself has a lineage of certification going all the
> way back to the original disciples, in a manner known as 'apostolic
> succession'.
But we have no records of any such succession.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because
> thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
And was Peter right? Did Simon's money perish with him? I suspect not. I
suspect Peter lied.
Geopelia
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
news:hcdb2c$neo$4...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Here's the rest of the story from Acts 8
20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast
thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right
in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the
thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond
of iniquity.
24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of
these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
That seems to be the end of it. I can't find anything further. Does anyone
know?
The money itself, being in coin, wouldn't have perished like paper money.
But who got it? Or did Simon keep it?
Perhaps he repented and gave it to Peter.
John Cawston
Reminds me of the story of the rich old codger who stipulated in
his will that his young widow had to bury him with all his money.
At the funeral the executer of the will watched carefully as the
widow dutifully wrote a cheque for the full amount and slipped it
into the coffin.
JC
>
>
David
Destiny is only doing what churches have done for 1000's of years...
people pay up willingly.
Tall poppy stuff really....
-D.
Geopelia
"Msg. Scooter" <monsigno...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1eale5l1nq3fe12vi...@4ax.com...
> On , , Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:45:23 +1300, Re: Gawd Brian Tamaki (aka King
> David),
> "Geopelia" <phil...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>
>>"vitw" <nos...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>>news:4aea01ae$1...@news.orcon.net.nz...
>>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:45 -0700, retro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is a man out of control
>>>> hard to believe the gullibility of some.
>>>>
>>>> There was a young man from Te Awamutu who preached the value of utu
>>>> and revelled in what wealth brings
>>>>
>>>> with only basic education
>>>> he took over the nation
>>>> to become the king of kings
>>>
>>> He's not even a real bishop.
>>>
>>> To become a bishop, you need to be ordained and certified by another
>>> bishop, who himself/herself has a lineage of certification going all the
>>> way back to the original disciples, in a manner known as 'apostolic
>>> succession'.
>>>
>>
>>Would Confirmation carried out by "Bishop" Tamaki be valid?
>
> any
> other thinking person.
>
>> 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles'
>> hands
>>the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
>>
>> 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay
>> hands,
>>he may receive the Holy Ghost.
>>
>> 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because
>>thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
>>
>> Acts 8
>>
>> Simony was rife in the Middle Ages and seems to be forgotten today,
>>but it's still around.
>
Perhaps the selling of relics on ebay?
puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/pro/simony.html
David
> On , , Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:45:23 +1300, Re: Gawd Brian Tamaki (aka King David),
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"vitw" <nos...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
> >news:4aea01ae$1...@news.orcon.net.nz...
> >> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:45 -0700, retro wrote:
>
> >>> Is a man out of control
> >>> hard to believe the gullibility of some.
>
> >>> There was a young man from Te Awamutu who preached the value of utu
> >>> and revelled in what wealth brings
>
> >>> with only basic education
> >>> he took over the nation
> >>> to become the king of kings
>
> >> He's not even a real bishop.
>
> >> To become a bishop, you need to be ordained and certified by another
> >> bishop, who himself/herself has a lineage of certification going all the
> >> way back to the original disciples, in a manner known as 'apostolic
> >> succession'.
>
> >Would Confirmation carried out by "Bishop" Tamaki be valid?
>
> other thinking person.
>
> >the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
>
> > 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands,
> >he may receive the Holy Ghost.
>
> > 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because
> >thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
>
> > Acts 8
>
> > Simony was rife in the Middle Ages and seems to be forgotten today,
> >but it's still around.
>
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
> to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
> Anatole France.
Brian is a modern religious entrepreneur,
he is no different that any other businessperson
who makes a few bucks out of folks...
as i understand it he puts a fair whack of his salary
back into the business...
gives a lot of people meaning and hope....
no one grumps when psychotherapists claim
huge wages...
-D.
Patrick FitzGerald
The noble media Hath told you Bishop Tamaki is ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously will Bishop Tamaki answered it
*****************************************
With acknowledgment to WS
------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick
Geopelia
"Patrick FitzGerald" <a...@b.com> wrote in message
news:fccme5575ipq16gig...@4ax.com...
Anow of such as for their bellies sake,
Creep and intrude, and climb into the fold?
Of other care they little reck'ning make,
Then how to scramble at the shearers feast,
And shove away the worthy bidden guest.
Blind mouthes! that scarce themselves know how to hold
A Sheep-hook, or have learn'd ought els the least
That to the faithfull Herdmans art belongs!
What recks it them? What need they? They are sped;
And when they list, their lean and flashy songs
Grate on their scrannel Pipes of wretched straw,
The hungry Sheep look up, and are not fed,
But swoln with wind, and the rank mist they draw,
Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread:
Besides what the grim Woolf with privy paw
Daily devours apace, and nothing sed,
But that two-handed engine at the door,
Stands ready to smite once, and smite no more.
Milton: Lycidas.
---------------------------------------------------
I would rather be a giddy goat than a hungry sheep!
retro
So what do you think you will call your church?
well anyway...
I'm having a michael Jackson day today
I saw 'This is it' last night, it really showcases what a truly
amazing man he was
AAOW! Uu-Hu
fabulous, highly recommended movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBs6-cmFvQ
I'd Rather Hear Both Sides
Of The Tale
See, It's Not About Races
Just Places
Faces....
....I Said If
You're Thinkin' Of
Being My Brother
It Don't Matter If You're
Black Or White
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> Brian is a modern religious entrepreneur,
> he is no different that any other businessperson
> who makes a few bucks out of folks...
'Entertainers' dont rent families apart.
> as i understand it he puts a fair whack of his salary
> back into the business...
Given that the two appear indistingshable, it would really be faux-
gifting.
> gives a lot of people meaning and hope....
So does reading books from the library: you dont need a sky-pixie to
get your life sorted.
> no one grumps when psychotherapists claim
> huge wages...
Shrinks dont lie.
vitw
We don't have any preserved certificates sitting in a vault somewhere,
with carbon dating and verified signatures that prove succession, but we
do have a bunch of individuals with documents going back at least a few
hundred years.
David
> On Oct 30, 9:30 pm, David <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 30 Oct, 09:23, retro <galleria...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Is a man out of control
> > > hard to believe the gullibility of some.
>
> > > There was a young man from Te Awamutu
> > > who preached the value of utu
> > > and revelled in what wealth brings
>
> > > with only basic education
> > > he took over the nation
> > > to become the king of kings
>
> > Destiny is only doing what churches have done for 1000's of years...
>
> > people pay up willingly.
>
> > Tall poppy stuff really....
>
> > -D.
>
> So what do you think you will call your church?
Oh so you know i secretly harbour fantasies of being a great
charistmatic leader...?
Really though I am far too honest to pull it off.
> well anyway...
> I'm having a michael Jackson day today
> I saw 'This is it' last night, it really showcases what a truly
> amazing man he was
> AAOW! Uu-Hu
yeah, just a bit misunderstood, huh?
Good, gracious and powerfull leadership always shows its flaws...
-D.
David
<misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 31, 7:24 am, David <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Brian is a modern religious entrepreneur,
> > he is no different that any other businessperson
> > who makes a few bucks out of folks...
>
> 'Entertainers' dont rent families apart.
There is no evidence so far that Destiny does this.
???DO you know something the rest of us don't?
>
> > as i understand it he puts a fair whack of his salary
> > back into the business...
>
> Given that the two appear indistingshable, it would really be faux-
> gifting.
Its about having confidence in ones own abilities.
>
> > gives a lot of people meaning and hope....
>
> So does reading books from the library: you dont need a sky-pixie to
> get your life sorted.
Some people do.
I sometimes cringe at the stuff i was prepared to believe
throughout my life... but in the end it got me there...
> > no one grumps when psychotherapists claim
> > huge wages...
>
> Shrinks dont lie.
No evidence that Brian consciously lies.
-D.
David
In our parish we have a person who in my view has the status of a
bishop.
Not in actual fact, but in effect.
There are many bishops of conventional churches in ANZ who would give
their
eye teeth to have the diocese BT commands...
-D.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<33d79e65-2ac5-41b7...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, retro
wrote:
> I'm having a michael Jackson day today
This a zit?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
A few hundred years doesn't take you "all the way back to the original
disciples" by any stretch.
David
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:19:02 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> >> We don't have any preserved certificates sitting in a vault somewhere,
> >> with carbon dating and verified signatures that prove succession, but
> >> we do have a bunch of individuals with documents going back at least a
> >> few hundred years.
>
> > A few hundred years doesn't take you "all the way back to the original
> > disciples" by any stretch.
>
> as far back as recorded records allow all agree that the the Bishops of the Church are ordained and
> consecrated by other bishops in a direct line of succession and consecration going all the way back to
> the original disciples.
So what about the Church of England?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:19:02 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>> We don't have any preserved certificates sitting in a vault somewhere,
>>> with carbon dating and verified signatures that prove succession, but
>>> we do have a bunch of individuals with documents going back at least a
>>> few hundred years.
>>
>> A few hundred years doesn't take you "all the way back to the original
>> disciples" by any stretch.
>
> No, but the traditional teaching of the Church, combined with the known
> practise of the Church going as far back as recorded records allow all
> agree that the the Bishops of the Church are ordained and consecrated by
> other bishops in a direct line of succession and consecration going all
> the way back to the original disciples.
Saying it is so doesn't make it so.
Rich...@hotmail.com
<Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:19:02 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>> We don't have any preserved certificates sitting in a vault somewhere,
>>> with carbon dating and verified signatures that prove succession, but
>>> we do have a bunch of individuals with documents going back at least a
>>> few hundred years.
>>
>> A few hundred years doesn't take you "all the way back to the original
>> disciples" by any stretch.
>
>No, but the traditional teaching of the Church, combined with the known practise of the Church going
>as far back as recorded records allow all agree that the the Bishops of the Church are ordained and
>consecrated by other bishops in a direct line of succession and consecration going all the way back to
>the original disciples.
"The" Church? Which one are you referring to Carnations? I certainly
is not the Destiny Church . . .
Rich...@hotmail.com
<Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote:
>What about it?
>
>It is a much a part of the Church as is the Church of Rome, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the
>Russian Orthodox Church is.
And the Jewish Church? The Seventh Day Adventists? The Islamic Church?
Are they all part of "The Church" as well?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> And I suppose you breathing doesn't mean you are alive.
Saying that "the traditional teaching of the Church" means that something is
true doesn't mean it's true.
Michael
"David" <dafy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:563a015b-269a-4221...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Yeah he is NZ's own version of Benny Hinn.
Now theres a real blood sucking leach to base yourself on.
But I bet you think he is a fabulous fellow as well.
Michael
................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
David
> On , , Sat, 31 Oct 2009 00:14:30 -0700 (PDT), Re: Gawd Brian Tamaki (aka King
>
> When the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church split in the 16th
> century, the Church of England retained the episcopal polity and apostolic
> succession of the Roman Church. At first the Church of England continued to
> adhere to the doctrinal and liturgical norms of the Roman Church. However, in
> the years following the split, the Church of England was increasingly influenced
> by the protestant theology popular on the continent.
>
> So basically the "new" anglican bishops who were previously Roman Catholic
> carried on the line.
> The same happened with the Anglo-Lutheran church.
> The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, North America's largest Lutheran
> body, became united in the historic episcopate of the Episcopal Church in 2000,
> upon the signing of Called to Common Mission - a document which established full
> communion between the ELCA and Episcopal Church.
>
> --
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
> to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
> Anatole France.
The line of succession can be traced back to Melchesidek at the time
of Abraham.
Like King David M. had usurped the power of the royal line. it was
assumed that
his right was won through prowess, rather than lineage. Jesus Christ
was essentially
in the same boat.
The personage of Melchesidek can be traced to that of Aten Ay, or Adon
Ai, a well
known figure in Egyptian history. There fore it is possible to deduce
the characteristics
of episcopal succession.
David.
David
> "David" <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
At a rally in Fiji a few years ago Benny Hinn was able to
rally about half the population. This was a factor in the
latest coup that has never really come to light...
In the British empire we acquired the raft of denominations
from the mother country. Since the 1960's we have acquired
mainly hybrid religion from the United States.
Regarding Benny Hinn I have studied and observed some
of the healing ministry of the charistmatic churches. I have
formed my own opinion of them and of these new developments.
There are some sects and cults around... there probably always
will be.
David.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> On 31 Oct, 11:52, misanthropic_curmudgeon
>
> <misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 7:24 am, David <dafyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> > > Brian is a modern religious entrepreneur,
> > > he is no different that any other businessperson
> > > who makes a few bucks out of folks...
>
> > 'Entertainers' dont rent families apart.
>
> There is no evidence so far that Destiny does this.
You obviously have not been reading the letters in the paper (with
names attached) saying otherwise.
> > > as i understand it he puts a fair whack of his salary
> > > back into the business...
>
> > Given that the two appear indistingshable, it would really be faux-
> > gifting.
>
> Its about having confidence in ones own abilities.
Please explain how giving one "a fair whack of his salary back into
the business" and "having confidence in ones own abilities" is
related.
And I do note your use of the word "business" to describe his cult.
> > > gives a lot of people meaning and hope....
>
> > So does reading books from the library: you dont need a sky-pixie to
> > get your life sorted.
>
> Some people do.
Only the week and feeble minded, who would blindly follow litter
blowing down the street.
How about, instead of clinging to mythology and codswallop, they grew
a brain and a backbone?
> > > no one grumps when psychotherapists claim
> > > huge wages...
>
> > Shrinks dont lie.
>
> No evidence that Brian consciously lies.
He makes incorrectt claims about scripture
He claims the bible is literaly tru e and correct in its entirity.
He claim his church is not a cult.
That is three lies right there.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> Yeah he is NZ's own version of Benny Hinn.
Speaking of charlatons.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> We don't have any preserved certificates sitting in a vault somewhere,
> with carbon dating and verified signatures that prove succession, but we
> do have a bunch of individuals with documents going back at least a few
> hundred years.
Because some people have been suckered for "at least a few hundred
years" is no reason to continue being suckered.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> There is only one Church.
Let me guess: your church!?!?
David
<misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> > > 'Entertainers' dont rent families apart.
>
> > There is no evidence so far that Destiny does this.
>
> You obviously have not been reading the letters in the paper (with
> names attached) saying otherwise.
Opps... anint bin reading 'granny herald'...
>
> > > > as i understand it he puts a fair whack of his salary
> > > > back into the business...
>
> > > Given that the two appear indistingshable, it would really be faux-
> > > gifting.
>
> > Its about having confidence in ones own abilities.
>
> Please explain how giving one "a fair whack of his salary back into
> the business" and "having confidence in ones own abilities" is
> related.
Um he supports his own efforts with his own money.
destiny has a huge Polynesian following.
if they were sucking the taxpayer dry everyone would be whinging
loudly...
you folk cry is your arse is on fire and yell when someone pisses on
it to put it out!
>
> And I do note your use of the word "business" to describe his cult.
>
> > > > gives a lot of people meaning and hope....
>
> > > So does reading books from the library: you dont need a sky-pixie to
> > > get your life sorted.
>
> > Some people do.
>
> Only the week and feeble minded, who would blindly follow litter
> blowing down the street.
The dogma of the fundamentalist church is well known...
people follow it blindly and with a lot of hard earned cash.
why not pick on those who punt on race horses?
>
> How about, instead of clinging to mythology and codswallop, they grew
> a brain and a backbone?
if you had the true courage of your convictions why don't you
go up there and put them right?
who is more charistmatic... yourself or Bishop Brian?
>
> > > > no one grumps when psychotherapists claim
> > > > huge wages...
>
> > > Shrinks dont lie.
>
> > No evidence that Brian consciously lies.
>
> He makes incorrectt claims about scripture
> He claims the bible is literaly tru e and correct in its entirity.
> He claim his church is not a cult.
Most of the charismatic churches are very strong on cults.
many are blind to their own failings...
perhaps Destiny has a growing body of dissenters [people who have
actually been in the fellowship] that would be a healthy sign, in my
view.
>
> That is three lies right there.
he believes the scriptures are true
ie. his interpretation comes from the holy spirit
No I would not call Destiny a cult...
People in this of part of the world are paying for a sports stadium,
some of the unwillingly...
Destiny allows people to opt out... no coercion to spend on
and with and for the organisation... whats the problem?
-D.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
> > > > > as i understand it he puts a fair whack of his salary
> > > > > back into the business...
>
> > > > Given that the two appear indistingshable, it would really be faux-
> > > > gifting.
>
> > > Its about having confidence in ones own abilities.
>
> > Please explain how giving one "a fair whack of his salary back into
> > the business" and "having confidence in ones own abilities" is
> > related.
>
> Um he supports his own efforts with his own money.
Which he gets right back again!
> if they were sucking the taxpayer dry everyone would
> be whinging loudly...
You must have missed much of the discourse around this, too.
> > And I do note your use of the word "business" to describe his cult.
?
> > Only the week and feeble minded, who would blindly follow litter
> > blowing down the street.
>
> The dogma of the fundamentalist church is well known...
> people follow it blindly and with a lot of hard earned cash.
> why not pick on those who punt on race horses?
I do.
> > He makes incorrectt claims about scripture
> > He claims the bible is literaly tru e and correct in its entirity.
> > He claim his church is not a cult.
>
> Most of the charismatic churches are very strong on cults.
Did you mean "Most of the charismatic churches are cults"??
> perhaps Destiny has a growing body of dissenters [people
> who have actually been in the fellowship] that would be a
> healthy sign, in my view.
Given that dissent has just been 'outlawed' by the Destiny church, can
you imagine what happens to any dissenters? Think back to your
previous comments about families not being torn apart.
> > That is three lies right there.
>
> he believes the scriptures are true
> ie. his interpretation comes from the holy spirit
So did David Koresh's. And Jones'.
> No I would not call Destiny a cult...
A rose by another other name....
Look at the definition-listing for a cult. Compare on contrast to
Destiny church.
http://www.cultwatch.com/cults.html is a good a place ans any to
start.
David
<misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> > The dogma of the fundamentalist church is well known...
> > people follow it blindly and with a lot of hard earned cash.
> > why not pick on those who punt on race horses?
>
> I do.
>
> > > He makes incorrectt claims about scripture
> > > He claims the bible is literaly tru e and correct in its entirity.
> > > He claim his church is not a cult.
>
> > Most of the charismatic churches are very strong on cults.
>
> Did you mean "Most of the charismatic churches are cults"?
I observe some cult-like activity in some Nz churches, including one
in our own town. I know a cult when I see one.
>
> > perhaps Destiny has a growing body of dissenters [people
> > who have actually been in the fellowship] that would be a
> > healthy sign, in my view.
>
> Given that dissent has just been 'outlawed' by the Destiny church, can
> you imagine what happens to any dissenters? Think back to your
> previous comments about families not being torn apart.
Ok, if this is happening then it is a worry...
> > > That is three lies right there.
>
> > he believes the scriptures are true
> > ie. his interpretation comes from the holy spirit
>
> So did David Koresh's. And Jones'.
>
> > No I would not call Destiny a cult...
>
> A rose by another other name....
>
> Look at the definition-listing for a cult. Compare on contrast to
> Destiny church.http://www.cultwatch.com/cults.htmlis a good a place ans any to
> start.
Hmmm that links called the Mormons and the Jehovah witnesses as a
cult.
To me that are sects, as are the Seventh Day Adventists, but certainly
not
cults.
The most conspicuous cult evident in Nz is the Closed Brethren.
From time to time there are cults which exercise sexual power
over its members disguised as spiritual power.
Its a question over whether there is coercion within the ranks.
A rugby club, or Rotary expects its members to pay dues and
to fundraise. But they are not cults...
-D.
Michael
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
> The Church catholic.
>
Oh yes, the one that the Mafia belong to and support.
Kill on Saturday, absolved on Sunday.
George.com
"Michael" <mjke...@gmailno.com> wrote in message
news:4aed2133$0$28739$a826...@news.titannews.com...
>
> "Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:27:53 -0700, misanthropic_curmudgeon wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 31, 10:50 pm, Carnations <Beauti...@Carnations.com> wrote: [snip]
>>>> There is only one Church.
>>>
>>> Let me guess: your church!?!?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> The Church catholic.
indeed, the church universal, but not the one situated in Rome.
rob
Rich...@hotmail.com
<Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:27:53 -0700, misanthropic_curmudgeon wrote:
>
>No.
>
>The Church catholic.
Is that like the Amish?
Rich...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Does the church universal emcompass Bhuddists and Hindus and Moslems
and Jews and Christians - and the money-worshippers in ACT?
If not, it can hardly be called universal can it?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> No, but in the absence of anything else ...
Except the possibility it’s a load of old cobblers.
George.com
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5sfqe5hq94pmi80jn...@4ax.com...
no, just believers in Christ.
rob
George.com
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
aye, the believers are a subset but the "Catholic Church" of Rome is not the
entire set.
>as is the Church of England, the Church
> of Australia, and the Church of New Zealand, not to mention the Orthodox
> Churches of Greece, of
> Russia, of Istanbul.
indeed, whereever a believer may reside.
rob
George.com
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
>>>>>>> Let me guess: your church!?!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Church catholic.
>>>>
>>>> indeed, the church universal, but not the one situated in Rome.
>>>
>>> The Church of Rome is as much a part of the Church catholic
>>
>> aye, the believers are a subset but the "Catholic Church" of Rome is not
>> the entire set.
>>
>>>as is the Church of England, the Church
>>> of Australia, and the Church of New Zealand, not to mention the
>>> Orthodox Churches of Greece, of
>>> Russia, of Istanbul.
>>
>> indeed, whereever a believer may reside.
>
in Christ may reside
>of the Catholic Faith may reside.
if by that you mean Romans 10:10 then I agree
rob
Rich...@hotmail.com
<Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:02:14 +1300, George.com wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Let me guess: your church!?!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Church catholic.
>>>>
>>>> indeed, the church universal, but not the one situated in Rome.
>>>
>>> The Church of Rome is as much a part of the Church catholic
>>
>> aye, the believers are a subset but the "Catholic Church" of Rome is not
>> the entire set.
>>
>>>as is the Church of England, the Church
>>> of Australia, and the Church of New Zealand, not to mention the
>>> Orthodox Churches of Greece, of
>>> Russia, of Istanbul.
>>
>> indeed, whereever a believer may reside.
>
>Nope. Wherever a believer of the Catholic Faith may reside.
Amd so far from universal, or catholic...
Rich...@hotmail.com
<Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:47:00 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:
>
>>>The Church catholic.
>>
>> Is that like the Amish?
>
>Of what relevance is that loony American cultural group?
Why are they any loonier than your local Anglican Church, Methodist
Church. Jewish synagogue or Islamic Mosque?
Just because they are American does not make them looney.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> <Rich80...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5sfqe5hq94pmi80jn...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:26:36 +1300, "George.com" <rob...@ihug.co.nz>
> > wrote:
>
> >>news:4aed2133$0$28739$a826...@news.titannews.com...
>
> >>> "Carnations" <Beauti...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
> >>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:27:53 -0700, misanthropic_curmudgeon wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Oct 31, 10:50 pm, Carnations <Beauti...@Carnations.com> wrote:
> >>>>> [snip]
> >>>>>> There is only one Church.
>
> >>>>> Let me guess: your church!?!?
>
> >>>> No.
>
> >>>> The Church catholic.
>
> >>indeed, the church universal, but not the one situated in Rome.
>
> >>rob
>
> > Does the church universal emcompass Bhuddists and Hindus and Moslems
> > and Jews and Christians - and the money-worshippers in ACT?
>
> > If not, it can hardly be called universal can it?
>
> no, just believers in Christ.
So that includes the muslims, then? they believe in this jesus christ
fellow (alough they quibble over a few details just like the
protestants, baptist, othodox and cathlocs do. Muslims might think he
was just another prophet, but they worship the same god and still
beleive this jesus chap existed)
misanthropic_curmudgeon
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:47:00 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:
>
> > Is that like the Amish?
>
Same god, same bible, same jesus, same mythology.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 21:19:16 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>>> Saying that "the traditional teaching of the Church" means that
>>>> something is true doesn't mean it's true.
>>>
>>> No, but in the absence of anything else ...
>>
>> Except the possibility it’s a load of old cobblers.
>
> To you it may be a "load of old cobblers", but to the Church the
> connection to the Apostles is important.
"Important" is not the same thing as "fact". You were trying to claim an
unbroken succession of bishops based on fact, were you not? Can you offer a
basis for that claim?
Geopelia
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
news:hcl74f$aq6$6...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Is there a full list anywhere up to today? Here's an early one.
http://biblefacts.org/history/asch.html
There is probably a list of Popes somewhere. Even the bad Popes could pass
the succession on.
With all the Cardinals and Bishops though, the full list would be enormous
by now.
Cramner and Latimer would be in it, but what about Henry VIII himself?
Geopelia
"misanthropic_curmudgeon" <misanthropi...@breastcancermail.com>
wrote in message
news:d3bc22e5-c91d-4bd9...@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
----------------
Probably nearer to the Pilgrim Fathers than some modern American churches.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> There is probably a list of Popes somewhere. Even the bad Popes could
> pass the succession on.
Even when there were two or three of them at once?
David
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:47:00 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:
>
> > Is that like the Amish?
>
>
> "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
The Amish are very benign....
no scandal from them unlike the fringes of the Mormon movement...
David
> On , , Mon, 02 Nov 2009 12:54:54 +1300, Re: Gawd Brian Tamaki (aka King David),
>
>
>
>
>
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> Pretty ironic considering you are arguing with David Murray.
>
> --
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
> to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
> Anatole France.
Oh karaiki, jus' found out it was my uncle who blew the story on
Destiny....
in formation supplied by one dissenting member so I am told...
I had a friend who was into Promisekeepers... and then left his wife
for something relatively trivial....
teile
> "Carnations" <Beauti...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
> aye, the believers are a subset but the "Catholic Church" of Rome is not the
> entire set.
> >as is the Church of England, the Church
> > of Australia, and the Church of New Zealand, not to mention the Orthodox
> > Churches of Greece, of
> > Russia, of Istanbul.
>
> indeed, whereever a believer may reside.
The term usually used by the Church is "the holy, catholic, apostolic
Church" of Christ.
Who is considered to to be truly part of that varies. Using an
objective test to distinguish who is and who isn't part of the Church
established when Christ gave his Great Commission to the apostles, we
look for apostolic succession - an unbroken train of ordination going
back to those original apostles.
By the test of apostolic succession, the ancient apostolic foundations
(the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome and Alexandria) are clearly
part, as are all the various national and other churches which can
trace their succession back to them. This includes the Church of
England and other Anglican Churches, some Lutheran churches, the other
Orthodox Churches, the monophysite Churches of Egypt, Ethiopia,
Armenia, Syria, India and elsewhere, and what's left of the once
mighty Nestorian branch (the Assyrian Church of Iraq).
But when you get to what people believe, I don't think any of those
various branches (except perhaps the most inclusive Anglicans) admit
that all the others have kept the true faith. The only ones who
adhere to the creeds laid down by the ancient ecumenical councils are
the orthodox and (since 1993) the monophysite churches. The
Nestorians reject the Nicene creed and the Church of Rome and other
churches in the west use the altered creed with the filioque added to
it (members of the Church of England are allowed to use the creed with
or without the filioque).
LW
David
Whew,,,, lets let go of all that legalese....
anyone i eat and drink with, and do that with some sort of
aknowledgement
of a shared humanity I regard as a holy communion...
church bodies, denominations sects and cults, along with false
distinctions
we and others make with other religions do not deter me...
I am happy around a-theists, rationalists and others, recognising a
shared
brother and sisterhood whether they do or not...
-D.
George.com
no doesn't include Muslims - belief in Christ as God and Son of God,
divinity and humanity, death on the cross and resurrection to bring
salvation. Muslims don't believe in that work of Jesus. Belief in that work
brings membership of the Church.
rob
George.com
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
>> "Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:02:14 +1300, George.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let me guess: your church!?!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Church catholic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> indeed, the church universal, but not the one situated in Rome.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Church of Rome is as much a part of the Church catholic
>>>>
>>>> aye, the believers are a subset but the "Catholic Church" of Rome is
>>>> not the entire set.
>>>>
>>>>>as is the Church of England, the Church
>>>>> of Australia, and the Church of New Zealand, not to mention the
>>>>> Orthodox Churches of Greece, of
>>>>> Russia, of Istanbul.
>>>>
>>>> indeed, whereever a believer may reside.
>>>
>>> Nope. Wherever a believer
>>
>> in Christ may reside
>
> Even demons believe in Jesus, but
> they do not believe the Catholic Faith.
I am not attempting to distort terms however I do differentiate clearly here
between the "Catholic Faith" as it may be decreed by the pope of Rome and
the universal (of which the term catholic is synonomous) faith of Christ and
the work he did that provides salvation and membership of the Catholic
Church. One is a denomination, the latter the true access into the catholic
Church of Christ, the body of Christ. They are seperate entities.
>>>of the Catholic Faith may reside.
>>
>> if by that you mean Romans 10:10 then I agree
>
> What do you mean by "Romans 10:10"?
The bible, Book of Romans, Chapter 10, verse 10.
George.com
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
>>>> indeed, whereever a believer may reside.
>>>
>>>Nope. Wherever a believer of the Catholic Faith may reside.
>>
>> Amd so far from universal, or catholic...
>
> catholic (note the small "c")
> Church, and only one faith held by the entire church - the catholic (again
> note the small "c") Faith.
>
> Those who do not believe the catholic Faith are not a part of the Church
> catholic.
I am likely agreeing with you. The Church being the body of Christ, rather
than the denomination based in Rome.
rob
Rich...@hotmail.com
wrote:
The Destiny Church would appear to be outside the group you describe.
So are people of the Bhuddist, Jewish and Islamic faith.
Was there a point to the many posts on religions other than worship of
Brian Tamaki?
Geopelia
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
>> Is there a full list anywhere up to today? Here's an early one.
>> http://biblefacts.org/history/asch.html There is probably a list of
>> Popes somewhere. Even the bad Popes could pass the succession on. With
>> all the Cardinals and Bishops though, the full list would be enormous by
>> now.
>>
>> Cramner and Latimer would be in it, but what about Henry VIII himself?
>
> all the ancient Patriarchs
> including, for example, Constantinople and Greece are direct in line from
> the Apostles, as are all the
> bishops that they consecrate and that those bishops co-consecrate.
>
> Cramner was a moderate reforming bishop (respected by both catholic and
> evangelical blocs in the
> English Church) who held to the Reformed Catholic Faith and who was able
> to institute major
> widespread reforms in the liturgical life and practice of the Church of
> England that still influence the
> daily life of the English Church and her sisters worldwide.
>
> Poor Cramner was executed because Queen Mary 1 was a Roman Catholic nutter
> who wanted to
> reverse the reforms that Cramner instituted.
>
> I always considered that Bishop Latimer was an extremely zealous Roman
> Catholic who turned into an
> extremist Evangelical nutter (respected by evangelicals) who got burnt at
> the stake by Queen Mary 1
> for being a nutter.
>
>
Ridley was burnt with them.
"Be of good cheer, Master Ridley, and play the man, for we shall this day
light such a candle in England as I trust by God's grace shall never be put
out."
Geopelia
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
>> But when you get to what people believe, I don't think any of those
>> various branches (except perhaps the most inclusive Anglicans) admit
>> that all the others have kept the true faith. The only ones who adhere
>> to the creeds laid down by the ancient ecumenical councils are the
>> orthodox and (since 1993) the monophysite churches. The Nestorians
>> reject the Nicene creed and the Church of Rome and other churches in the
>> west use the altered creed with the filioque added to it (members of the
>> Church of England are allowed to use the creed with or without the
>> filioque).
>
> definition not considered to be
> believers of the Catholic Faith.
>
> transcription error that became
> widespread and then became adopted. The Roman Church is too stubborn to
> admit it was wrong over
> this issue as well!
>
The Trinity is complicated enough without quibbling about parts of it. Just
believe what you like.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Yes.
>
> The Tradition of the Church catholic.
But there is no evidence to back that up. It's just a bunch of
unsubstantiated claims.
> "Fact" does not relate to "truth" - they are quite different concepts -
> one relates to actions and the other relates to archetypes.
Is that a fact, or is that the truth?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Just believe what you like.
What about those who don't believe you can just believe what you like?
Geopelia
"Carnations" <Beau...@Carnations.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11...@carnations.com...
>
>>>> if by that you mean Romans 10:10 then I agree
>>>
>>> What do you mean by "Romans 10:10"?
>>
>> The bible, Book of Romans, Chapter 10, verse 10.
>
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation."
Puggle91
> On 1 Nov, 15:21, misanthropic_curmudgeon
>
> <misanthropiccurmudg...@breastcancermail.com> wrote:
> > > The dogma of the fundamentalist church is well known...
> > > people follow it blindly and with a lot of hard earned cash.
> > > why not pick on those who punt on race horses?
>
> > I do.
>
> > > > He makes incorrectt claims about scripture
> > > > He claims the bible is literaly tru e and correct in its entirity.
> > > > He claim his church is not a cult.
>
> > > Most of the charismatic churches are very strong on cults.
>
> > Did you mean "Most of the charismatic churches are cults"?
>
> I observe some cult-like activity in some Nz churches, including one
> in our own town. I know a cult when I see one.
>
>
>
> > > perhaps Destiny has a growing body of dissenters [people
> > > who have actually been in the fellowship] that would be a
> > > healthy sign, in my view.
>
> > Given that dissent has just been 'outlawed' by the Destiny church, can
> > you imagine what happens to any dissenters? Think back to your
> > previous comments about families not being torn apart.
>
> Ok, if this is happening then it is a worry...
>
> > > > That is three lies right there.
>
> > > he believes the scriptures are true
> > > ie. his interpretation comes from the holy spirit
>
> > So did David Koresh's. And Jones'.
>
> > > No I would not call Destiny a cult...
>
> > A rose by another other name....
>
> > Look at the definition-listing for a cult. Compare on contrast to
> > Destiny church.http://www.cultwatch.com/cults.htmlisa good a place ans any to
> > start.
>
> Hmmm that links called the Mormons and the Jehovah witnesses as a
> cult.
> To me that are sects, as are the Seventh Day Adventists, but certainly
> not
> cults.
>
> The most conspicuous cult evident in Nz is the Closed Brethren.
>
> From time to time there are cults which exercise sexual power
> over its members disguised as spiritual power.
>
> Its a question over whether there is coercion within the ranks.
>
> A rugby club, or Rotary expects its members to pay dues and
> to fundraise. But they are not cults...
>
> -D.
If you do not understand why the LDS/Mormon Church and others are not
cults then you really need to do at least 5 minutes research on their
backgrounds. Maybe look up the definition of 'cult' also. The base
core of moron faith, I mean even the most fundamental beliefs, goes
against virtually any Christian teachings by other bible-based groups
and nearly all other cults as well.
Fundamentalist Muslims that take it to the extreme are also being
manipulated by elders and control freaks that use others and the
suffering they cause to get their buzz - Money isn't the only power-
trip in town. Plane-jackers and bomb-blasters do nothing but cause
hatred toward themselves, their religion and their peoples. i.e. If
you look like an Arab/Muslim/terrorist/someone-from-the-middle-east
people will despise you, hate you, bash you, treat you as outcasts,
disrespect you, burn your mosques, mistrust you, not employ you, etc.
Even though a pitifully small group of them have caused the damage, it
may be impossible to repair the ill will towards their people now. You
might like to think otherwise, but sit down and really think about it
- how would you even start?
All around the world you will find a great portion of non-Muslim
people now have certain misgivings about Muslims wherever they come
from. Contrast this with the IRA who were also responsible for some
pretty gnarly carnage through the years. Irishmen who were anywhere
around the world outside the UK would have no problems getting a drink
in with the locals and, in many places, would make mates as soon as
look at ya. You wouldn't find many instances of gang-bashing or Irish
pub/business burning going on around the planet because the IRA blew
up yet another British target - even in the colonies.
Of course Rotary Clubs, Rugby/Soccer/Sports Teams, Scout/Guide Groups,
etc. are not cults! They fund-raise to help other groups, charities or
causes (Rotary/Rotaract/Lions,etc.), or to finance their trips/away-
games/uniforms, etc. The whole group/club reap the benefits of
virtually EVERY cent they raise - none of it goes toward housing their
Grand-Poobah/Troop-Leader/Coach or others. I've served on many
committees, was a member of Rotaract, Red Cross, all Scouting levels
and a leader for some groups, and all of the funds raised in any of
them were to benefit the whole, the community, or a particular cause/
charity (such as Child Cancer, CCS, IHC, etc.). None of these sorts of
groups should even be a blink on the horizon when considering things
related to cults or cult-like behaviour.
Oh what a tangled world we live in, eh?
Geopelia
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
news:hcme4j$1sq$2...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> In message <hcmd9f$hpv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Geopelia wrote:
>
>> Just believe what you like.
>
> What about those who don't believe you can just believe what you like?
Fair enough if they don't believe you can just believe what you like, as
long as they don't persecute those who do believe they can just believe what
they like.
Aren't we lucky to be living in a secular country in a secular age!