Japan & Whaling
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their traditional
culture for centuries.
Yet when an entire nation (Japan) is in exactly the same situation, suddenly
everybody says no, they mustn’t be allowed to do it.
John Cawston
Once the Japanese became rich they were reclassified as "Honorary
Whites", and thus no longer able to claim indigenous and/or
victim status.
JC
vitw
> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their
> traditional culture for centuries.
I bet these tribes are also wanting to use modern western technology as
well.
timbochov
Big difference between Eskimos culling minky whales in rowing boats
and canoes compared to modern fishing fleets adept at Whalecide.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Of course the poor, backward “Eskimos” are only “culling”, not
“Whaleciding”, aren’t they?
Sailor Sam
IIRC the inuit have been criticised in the past for 'modernising' their
whale catching techniques (The use of motorised canoes springs to mind)
Howevern the point timbochov appears to be making is, and it's quite
clear, that the inuit are only taking a few animals, whereas the modern
Japanese, and Norwegian, fleets are capable of taking the same number of
animals, per day.
Simon
> Big difference between Eskimos culling minky whales in rowing boats
> and canoes compared to modern fishing fleets adept at Whalecide.
Also, the Eskimos are at least honest in their claims as to why they
are killing the whales. They do not claim, as the Japanese do, to be
killing the whales for scientific research.
BlokeDownThePub
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
news:hhtsbu$7ab$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
They are allowed to for scientific purposes such as a survey of "Do they
still taste good?". Early results indicate the affirmative but it is too
soon to be sure.
Tilly
news:hhugk9$e7i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Frozeb whale meat has been stacking up in freezers for year because Japanese
consumers aren't buying it.
Now some is being used in schools for lunches ,the rest is used for pet
food.
timbochov
My wife, who is Japanese, knows of several restaurants from her home
city that serve whale meat.
Apparently, the Eskimos sell it to the Japanese at HUGE prices.
Cheeky bastards.
timbochov
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
Correct. Glad you cottoned on Einstein.
Katipo
"BlokeDownThePub" <nos...@nospam.co> wrote in message
news:hhuip6$mth$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
filet-o-whale on the menu at a typical Tokyo McDonalds is proof of that. :)
Lyndon Watson
> Obviously the scientific research story is a load of bollocks. The
> filet-o-whale on the menu at a typical Tokyo McDonalds is proof of that. :)
Well, perhaps. If the research were real, it should have produced
some pretty significant results by now. Does anyone know of research
papers from it in the most respected peer-reviewed journals?
LW
Allistar
Except in the case where a species is endangered, what is the moral
difference between farming whales and farming cows?
Is it a case of perceived intelligence of the creatures?
Their majesty?
I am not condoning the killing of either species, just raising a
philosophical question.
This is similar to: why is it ok for us to eat sheep but not dogs?
--
A.
Katipo
"Lyndon Watson" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:b88b700b-357c-4b40...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...
Try looking in Japanse culinary magazines
John Cawston
Google shows enough references to conclude that Japanese whaling
was indeed part of the culture many centuries ago but that it
declined massively after Japan could better feed itself in modern
times. After WW2 Japan was hungry and the Allies approved and
possibly mandated that whaling should be revived to make it more
self sufficient.
So, dammit, they are eating whales for food, not scientific endevour.
The real question is whether we should care, and are the Japs
killing off the species. And I can find no indication that
whales, especially the target Minke whales are diminishing as a
result of over fishing.
Personally I think the whales fall into the same specious
thinking that human activities are making thousands of species
extinct each year.. trouble is, no one can find the bones and
remnants to prove it.
JC
>
> LW
SupergoofNZ
That and starting the odd war ...
Rachel
SupergoofNZ
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
>> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their traditional
>> culture for centuries.
>>
>> Yet when an entire nation (Japan) is in exactly the same situation,
>> suddenly everybody says no, they mustn’t be allowed to do it.
>
> Except in the case where a species is endangered, what is the moral
> difference between farming whales and farming cows?
Or farming salmon, trout ... etc
> Is it a case of perceived intelligence of the creatures?
> Their majesty?
>
> I am not condoning the killing of either species, just raising a
> philosophical question.
I have no problem with the controlled fishing of abundant species of
whales, but unfortunately some of the ones being hunted are endangered.
And I believe whale hunting methods aren't at all humane either.
There seems to be quite a difference in attitudes towards land mammals
and sea creatures, where the former get a whole lot more protection than
the latter even though they may be equally scarce (or even more
critically endangered, in cases like the hector's dolphin).
Rachel
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Howevern the point timbochov appears to be making is, and it's quite
> clear, that the inuit are only taking a few animals, whereas the modern
> Japanese, and Norwegian, fleets are capable of taking the same number of
> animals, per day.
And how does that translate to per head of respective populations?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
cf1e-40a1-952...@u41g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, Simon wrote:
> Also, the Eskimos are at least honest in their claims as to why they
> are killing the whales. They do not claim, as the Japanese do, to be
> killing the whales for scientific research.
Why should that make a difference? A dead whale is a dead whale.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> That and [the Japanese] starting the odd war ...
Have they been worse warmongers than some other nations? Worse than, say,
the US?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
afb9-076...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, timbochov wrote:
> Apparently, the Eskimos sell it to the Japanese at HUGE prices.
> Cheeky bastards.
So much for your attempt to put the Eskimos on a higher moral plane, then.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> This is similar to: why is it ok for us to eat sheep but not dogs?
Lots of people do eat dogs. They may indeed originally have been bred at
least in part for food.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Frozeb whale meat has been stacking up in freezers for year because
> Japanese consumers aren't buying it.
But Timbochov has claimed that the Eskimos are selling their catch to Japan.
How can that be, if there is no demand for it?
Sailor Sam
Let's see, 100 whales for the Inuit, 10000 for the Japanese.
Translates to ~1% of the respective whale population.
Tilly
news:hi0kk2$q7v$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Reviving a Taste for Whale
Japan Introduces Meat to Children as It Fights Moratorium
............As part of a program by the Japanese government and the fishing
industry to rebuild Japan's endangered taste for whale, the students -- some
with less enthusiasm than others -- dug into the crispy nuggets dished into
little plastic lunchboxes. After the feast, the children headed home with
official books on whales that included helpful tips on how to defrost whale
meat (over two days), as well as recipes for whale burgers and whale soup.
..............
The government and pro-whaling groups have pumped cash into the promotion of
eating whale meat. The government is spending about $5 million a year on
such campaigns, while groups of housewives and other organizations are
sponsoring whale cooking classes and related seminars to stimulate the
market, according to officials and industry sources.................
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061800890.html
TOKYO -- Japan has enticed children with whale burger school lunches, sung
the praises of the red meat in colorful pamphlets and declared whale hunting
"a national heritage."
But Tokyo has a dilemma: By rapidly expanding its whale hunt, Japan kills
more of the giant mammals than its consumers care to eat.
The result is an unprecedented glut of whale meat. Prices -- once about $15
a pound -- are plunging, inventories are bursting and promoters are
scrambling to get Japanese to eat more whale.
It's a tough sell.
"To put it simply, whale meat tastes horrible," said 30-year-old Kosuke ...
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1608344.html
Tilly
news:hi0k59$pli$4...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
The enthusiasm of Japanese for whaling has surpassed their appetite for
actually eating the mammals, leaving retailers with a glut of unsold whale
meat.
-
Despite widespread international opposition, Tokyo plans to kill 1,070 minke
whales this year, 400 more than in 2005 and double the number it hunted a
decade ago.
But the increase has outpaced demand for eating whale meat in a country
where most would rather watch whales than hunt them.
Toshoku, which sells whale meat at Tokyo's famed Tsukiji fish market, has
slashed prices by a quarter but says it is still a hard sell.
Nationwide, more than double the amount of whale meat sits in freezers than
is released on to the market each year.
Commercial whaling was banned by the International Whaling Commission in
1986 but Japan has continued to hunt under a loophole allowing whales to be
killed for "research".
Japan then processes the meat, which finds its way to supermarkets and
specialist stores across the country.
In the past decade whale has been eaten mostly as a rare treat served in
expensive restaurants. But increased supply has left Japan scrambling to
attract new fans of the meat.
One fast food chain has produced a whale burger, while "whale bacon" is now
on offer in cheap pub-restaurants popular with office workers.
In some areas whale meat is back on school menus: both to use up the surplus
and create a new generation of whale eaters.
Japan argues that the minke whale population has risen to levels where
controlled hunting is not just sustainable but desirable, as whales consume
large quantities of fish.
It has called the ban a form of culture imperialism, as countries without a
whale eating tradition seek to impose their values on others.
The Japan Whaling Association has aggressively extolled the taste of whale
meat, producing recipe books for housewives who might otherwise have little
idea how to serve it.
"Is it OK to eat whale meat? Of course it is," reads a pamphlet, entitled
Delicious Whales, distributed by the government-affiliated association.
"Even if we capture 2,000 whales a year for 100 years, it's OK because whale
numbers are growing," the pamphlet says.
Whale hunting was largely confined to a few coastal areas of Japan for most
of its history. Only after the Second World War, when a hungry populace
desperately needed protein, did it spread nationwide.
Then it was seen as a tough and rather unpleasant source of nutrition,
rather than a delicacy.
Geopelia
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
The Chow was.
Geopelia
"Br. Scooter" <br.sc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:oo56k55djc2bdslar...@4ax.com...
> On , , Mon, 4 Jan 2010 22:45:23 -0800 (PST), Re: Japan & Whaling,
> timbochov
>
We ate it in wartime Britain because it was available. Meat is meat, when
you're hungry.
Most of us would have preferred "the roast beef of old England" or a nice
piece of pork, with crackling.
Or Canterbury Lamb, much advertised in the butchers' shops before the war.
But those were just a dream back in those days, unless a huge family pooled
their miniscule rations.
Rich...@hotmail.com
Since this is nz.general, the first country to consider is probably
New Zealand, and there I think is one country that has not been a
worse warmonger than Japan.
But that is a long way from whaling . . .
Rich...@hotmail.com
Should we believe Timbachov? If so, why?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Rich...@hotmail.com wrote:
Clearly somebody is lying. But who?
Pooh
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
news:hhtsbu$7ab$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their traditional
> culture for centuries.
>
> Yet when an entire nation (Japan) is in exactly the same situation,
> suddenly
> everybody says no, they mustn't be allowed to do it.
If the japanese were using rifles and small boats off their own coasts for
the occaisional whale I'd go along with you. However they seem to be
subourning Pacific nationas to support their "sceintific" whaling so I won't
;O)
Pooh
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
BlokeDownThePub
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f448k5ttqnri3c7kp...@4ax.com...
At least Japan's most recent aggressive and brutal war against China was a
decision made by Japan's rulers. New Zealand cheerfully joins in most any
war that England has initiated or joined and will have participated in far
more wars than Japan but with far less affect.
> But that is a long way from whaling . . .
Closer to wailing.
hellicopter
> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their traditional
> culture for centuries.
>
> Yet when an entire nation (Japan) is in exactly the same situation,
> suddenly everybody says no, they mustn’t be allowed to do it.
Japan obeys many restrictions on whale culling, because destroying
the whale means they won't be able to make the 'tradition' claim.
Though I don't see how they can possible justify coming south of
the equator to target whales. Funny thing about the agreements,
is that its creates a right to kill whales in the southern
ocean because they have being doing it for science for decades!
What we need is global licensing of fish, that all boats will
fish what they can, then the owners of the license (nation/s
nearest the point where the fish were caught) will take a
cut of the sale price.
Japan might actually have a few more friends if NZ profited
by the taking of whales in our waters. i.e. the antarctic and large parts of
the S.Pacific. Many pacific islands should be getting funds from
foriegn fishing vessels, just as Somalia should be getting
funds from fishing offshore and from fines from those dumping waste.
Before we take ownership into space, we will move ownership into the oceans.
BlokeDownThePub
"Tilly" wrote:
>>> Frozeb whale meat has been stacking up in freezers for year because
>>> Japanese consumers aren't buying it.
>> But Timbochov has claimed that the Eskimos are selling their catch to
>> Japan.
>> How can that be, if there is no demand for it?
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061800890.html
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1608344.html
Perhaps that was true when written, in 2005, but it hasn't succeeded and is
now completely irrelevant.
http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/fact-sheet-the-whale-meat-mar.pdf
That site states that there is no market for imported whale meat. As
Greenpeace is opposed to Japanese whaling, I suspect they would not be
easily misled.
Lyndon Watson
> Since this is nz.general, the first country to consider is probably
> New Zealand, and there I think is one country that has not been a
> worse warmonger than Japan.
Really? Which one country is that?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that there is only one country with a
less warlike record, but it's pleasing to see someone look at history
with a clear eye and see that one thing that is remarkable about the
history of Japan is how few conflicts they have been involved in, and
only one - their mid-twentieth century expansion - which was
unequivocally started by them. The many countries which have been
worse warmongers include Britain with its many wars of aggression all
over the world and its truly disgusting Opium War against China, Spain
and France with their conquests, and the Mongols, Turks, Arabs . . .
All of them have been involved in *many* more wars than the Japanese.
LW
Brian Dooley
On 5 Jan 2010 13:12:06 +1200, vitw <nos...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:07:42 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
>> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their
>> traditional culture for centuries.
>
>I bet these tribes are also wanting to use modern western technology as
>well.
In fact many/most/all of them are restricted to traditional
methods.
--
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Brian Dooley
On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 17:39:26 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>In message <d2560aef-a159-45d2...@34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, timbochov wrote:
>
>> On Jan 4, 3:07 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>>
>>> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
>>> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their traditional
>>> culture for centuries.
Not an excuse but a treaty obligation
>>>
>>> Yet when an entire nation (Japan) is in exactly the same situation,
>>> suddenly everybody says no, they mustn�t be allowed to do it.
Who's 'everybody?
>>
>> Big difference between Eskimos culling minky whales in rowing boats
>> and canoes compared to modern fishing fleets adept at Whalecide.
>
>Of course the poor, backward �Eskimos� are only �culling�, not
>�Whaleciding�, aren�t they?
They are taking their legal entitlement.
Calling them all 'eskimos' is like calling all australasians
'australian'. Some of them don't like it.
ChristianKnight
>
> <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>
> >> That and [the Japanese] starting the odd war ...
>
> >Have they been worse warmongers than some other nations? Worse than, say,
> >the US?
>
> Since this is nz.general, the first country to consider is probably
> New Zealand, and there I think is one country that has not been a
> worse warmonger than Japan.
>
> But that is a long way from whaling . . .
New Zealand is the worst war monger because they have set a course to
genocide all of the earths white races.
Forcing at this stage slavery to a treaty that was clearly made to
bring equality of Forests and rivers and foreshore not some selfish
single minded greed compensation.
New Zeal;and may really have to tighten many areas of ACC if the Maori
tribes are hell bent on being the ruination of the early european
settlers here.
Total white Genocide is far worse then a few experimental whales.
Whales should be left alone to replenish their numbers. The Japanese
should keep biological testing to the garden.
Christ's love
SupergoofNZ
I was responding to this comment:
John Cawston wrote:
> Once the Japanese became rich they were reclassified as "Honorary
> Whites", and thus no longer able to claim indigenous and/or victim
> status.
Starting wars tends to lose a country any rights to claim any sort of
victim or indigenous status. They have the means to find alternatives to
eating endangered species.
Rachel
timbochov
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> In message <9092837e-220b-4238-
>
> afb9-076adcb82...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, timbochov wrote:
> > Apparently, the Eskimos sell it to the Japanese at HUGE prices.
> > Cheeky bastards.
>
> So much for your attempt to put the Eskimos on a higher moral plane, then.
Sarcasm is not your forte is it. You are either twelve or American.
timbochov
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
Fuck me, I don't whether to laugh or cry. I doubt if you are
American, not even the yanks are this thick.
timbochov
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Nice one Sam, glad you could help lawrence out since he can't get past
the 20 digits he possesses for counting.
timbochov
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> In message <s748k5hlsnj0b6n32d9eq770gfor876...@4ax.com>,
>
> Rich80...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:13:54 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> > <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>
>
> >>> Frozeb whale meat has been stacking up in freezers for year because
> >>> Japanese consumers aren't buying it.
>
> >>But Timbochov has claimed that the Eskimos are selling their catch to
> >>Japan. How can that be, if there is no demand for it?
>
> > Should we believe Timbachov? If so, why?
>
> Clearly somebody is lying. But who?
I'm a big fat lier. Of course the Eskimos were putt putt fucking
putting in their outboard powered canoes to Tokyo to sell whale meat.
Jason Rumney
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> There are indigenous tribes in North America who are allowed to catch
> whales, on the excuse that they have done so as part of their traditional
> culture for centuries.
>
> everybody says no, they mustn’t be allowed to do it.
Forget the Canadian and Alaskan tribes, how many whales is Norway
slaughtering this year?
timbochov
Far too many I suspect.
Geopelia
"Pooh" <jus...@polies.suc> wrote in message
news:hi15c8$2vem$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
A country can gain first world technology and remain with third world
morality, alas.
timbochov
> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
>
> news:hi0kce$pli$8...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
> > wrote:
>
> >> This is similar to: why is it ok for us to eat sheep but not dogs?
>
> > Lots of people do eat dogs. They may indeed originally have been bred at
> > least in part for food.
>
> The Chow was.
There is a chinese restaurant chain here in the US called Mr Chau. I
wonder what their secret ingredient is?
Geopelia
"timbochov" <tuata...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cdb6a029-5661-4fc0...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
------------
There is a "Good Horse Takeaways" near us.
Allistar
Morality is subjective. Do you think it's immoral to eat whale meat, but not
to eat cow meat?
--
A good End cannot sanctify evil Means; nor must we ever do Evil, that Good
may come of it. -William Penn
Geopelia
"Allistar" <b...@c.com> wrote in message
news:btmdnTDDC72-odfW...@giganews.com...
I don't like the idea of eating dairy cows. After all, we drink their milk.
But cattle raised for meat are another matter.
In the old days, whales were considered just a big fish and not endangered.
They had a good chance against a harpoon from a rowboat.
Now we know they are intelligent mammals.
I ate whale meat like most people in Britain, in the war. Now I certainly
wouldn't, but who knows what might happen in another war?
> --
> A good End cannot sanctify evil Means; nor must we ever do Evil, that Good
> may come of it. -William Penn
Wasn't he a Quaker? I wonder what he would think of the modern world,
especially the bombing of cities.
But Good and Evil depend on one's culture.