School zoning, or the alternative
Matty F
suggesting getting rid of school zoning.
Under school zoning, pupils living near the school have the right
to go to that school.
How will that work if zoning is abolished?
Do the schools just pick and choose the pupils they want?
On what basis will they choose pupils?
What do the pupils who live right next to the school do, if they
are not selected to go to that school? Will they have to be
bussed to another school, at greater cost and causing more
traffic congestion?
Roger Dewhurst
"Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
news:4qAGf.137806$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
It is a tradeoff. With no zoning there would be less pressure to inflate
the prices of houses in 'good school' zones and the 'good schools' would
probably get even better children. Obviously the 'bottom of the barrel
schools' would get even more of society's dross. Mid range schools would
have to make a conscious decision to aim for a better place in the market or
not. The final outcome would be a better education for some and a worse one
for others. Since those profiting from a better education make more of a
contribution to society as a whole the net advantage to society should be
greater. The politically correct among us will probably be happier with a
uniform level of mediocrity.
R
>
Annemarie
"Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
news:4qAGf.137806$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
School zoning is a terrible idea, always was and always will be, the sooner
they get rid of it the better. It causes inflated real estate in some
areas, and deflated real estate in others. Apparently Auckland Grammar are
getting too many people wanting to go to their school and it looks as if the
zone is going to be reduced, which could mean people who have bought within
the area at great cost will suddenly find themselves outside the zone and
the value of their property dropping drastically. Whats more you have
people boarding their children within the zone, or simply cheating the
system.
Without zoning you have waiting lists. So first in first served with
priority to siblings. Which I think is the fairest system. Then you would
have schools with a more mixed pupil population, which would IMO mean you
would get more active parents in the comunity and perhaps the standard of
ALL schools would lift whats more schools would have no influence on real
estate value.
Am
Peter
The more serious question is the rorts that take place in Auckland with
respect to Grammar Zone. The zoning of Auckland Grammar and EGGS seems to
have far more related difficulties than zoning of any other schools (there
seems a less of a problem in Wellington for example).
This means that Auckland Grammar has to put significant resources into
detecting these rorts or face an enrolment blowout. Shrinking the zone
would not help as these rorts will continue in the shrunk zone.
Perhaps the answer may be to put all Auckland area secondary school staff
into a ballot and draw lots to see who will teach at each school. This may
help equalise the situation among Auckland schools.
Annemarie
"Peter" <pet...@parazzdise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:43eb...@clear.net.nz...
Just do away with zoning, then it would balance out. It is a terrible
system that has created a terrible problem
There are zoning problems in the Wellington area btw, but perhaps not as bad
as Auckland.
Matty F
> The more serious question is the rorts that take place in Auckland with
> respect to Grammar Zone. The zoning of Auckland Grammar and EGGS seems to
> have far more related difficulties than zoning of any other schools (there
> seems a less of a problem in Wellington for example).
Part of the problem is that there is no secondary school between
Auckland Grammar and Selwyn College, so both schools are very
large. They should have built a new school midway, many years
ago. I think a new secondary school is to be built near
Meadowbank, which is an excellent idea.
In the meantime, Auckland Grammar should shrink their zone a bit
more, and give priority to those who have lived in the zone the
longest, e.g. at least some years.
Besides, AGS is not that great - it just turns out rugby players
and failed politicians. Who needs them?
Matty F
> School zoning is a terrible idea, always was and always will be, the sooner
> they get rid of it the better. It causes inflated real estate in some
> areas, and deflated real estate in others. Apparently Auckland Grammar are
> getting too many people wanting to go to their school and it looks as if the
> zone is going to be reduced, which could mean people who have bought within
> the area at great cost will suddenly find themselves outside the zone and
> the value of their property dropping drastically.
Well that's just tough. They should have bought well inside the zone.
So what about all the people whose properties will drop in value
if zoning is removed? They may have bought in the area for
reasons other than schooling.
Besides, house prices outside the Grammar zone, in St Heliers,
Meadowbank, Orakei, Kohimarama etc are still very high.
Roger Dewhurst
Nothing like a culture of uniform mediocracy.
R
>
Annemarie
"Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
> Annemarie wrote:
>
>> School zoning is a terrible idea, always was and always will be, the
>> sooner they get rid of it the better. It causes inflated real estate in
>> some areas, and deflated real estate in others. Apparently Auckland
>> Grammar are getting too many people wanting to go to their school and it
>> looks as if the zone is going to be reduced, which could mean people who
>> have bought within the area at great cost will suddenly find themselves
>> outside the zone and the value of their property dropping drastically.
>
> Well that's just tough. They should have bought well inside the zone.
> So what about all the people whose properties will drop in value if zoning
> is removed? They may have bought in the area for reasons other than
> schooling.
But it is false or controled value. Schools should have nothing to do with
property value and the sooner it gets back how it should be the better
Annemarie
"Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
It does sound like a new school is needed, however a waiting list system is
surely the fairest. That way, you think ahead, get your kids on the waiting
list and you get in. If you leave it till the last minute you miss out and
have to go to another school or pay for a private school of your choice.
Siblings should have priority. Of course with the axing of zoning, those
already inroled would obviously be able to complete their schooling. Then
waiting lists. Its how some private schools do it anyway and it is clear
and fair.
-Newsman-
LOL!
'Mediocracy' - government by the mediocre.
I love it!
Matty F
So, traffic congestion will increase, and getting to school will
cost more.
In the inner Eastern suburbs, apart from private schools, there
is just Auckland Grammar/EGGS and Selwyn College. Glendowie
College is a bit far away. The problem is not one of zoning, but
of a lack of enough schools in the area.
I'd like to know details about the basis on which schools will
choose pupils.
Will there be an entrance test or IQ test taken while at primary
school?
Will Auckland Grammar avoid taking Maori and Pacific Island
pupils (unless they can demonstrate that they are good at rugby)?
Annemarie
"Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
Waiting lists. Another words first in first served with priority then to
siblings.
Very simple and fair.
Howard Edwards
And tough luck for families whose breadwinner gets transferred to
Auckland in November?
Howard Edwards
Annemarie
"Howard Edwards" <H.Ed...@massey.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:uclnu1dbhe2fh1rq0...@4ax.com...
Yep pretty much, zoning is no more fair, especially if they suddenly make
the zone smaller.
Howard Edwards
You've lost me here. So we should put our kids' names on every
school waiting list in the country?
Howard Edwards
Annemarie
Well if you want :o) Sure there are going to be people who move and end up
not getting into a school they are living near - so what!!! Plenty of
people live next to schools that their kids do not go to because they choose
another school or it is a school for the wrong gender.
Zoning creates areas of higher real estate value and lower real estate
value, whats more it exacerbates a situation where there are better schools
and not such good schools. All the people from higher socio economic groups
who therefore usually value education more vie to get their kids into the
supposedly better school, buying housing at inflated prices, cheat the
system, boarding their kids within the zone, more subdivision of the area
which is not good for the character of these areas. If however it is done
by waiting list it does not matter where you live, you can move in or out of
the area, it is not govt controlled. Plus with more mixed pupils the
standard of some of the schools would lift because the parent community
would insist that it did. Zoning is just way too much govt control.
Barry Phease
> Yep pretty much, zoning is no more fair, especially if they suddenly make
> the zone smaller.
People who pay more for their houses because of zoning deserve it. Zoning
has nothing to do with real estate. It is a principle that children
should be able to go to their local school. If they shrink the zone
because another school is built then those children still have a viable
option. They can't leave kids out of their zone who have no local school
to go to.
Zoning may not be perfect (because people lie and pay exhorbitant sums to
live in some zones), but the alternative, of forcing some child to drive
to a school across town when there is one next door is a non-starter.
No public school operates on a first come first served basis. The
criteria are mostly
zone
family connections
special needs
ballot
In most cases people get as good an education at their local school as
they would get at one of the fashionable schools. Mostly people are
choosing the classmates for their progeny when the local school is too
brown. In the few cases where a school is failing its students it is
better for parents to get involved and fix the problems. Generally
schools only fail for a few years, and even the fashionable schools can
have periods where they fail to provide the best education for a large
number of their pupils.
When schools have to restrict numbers an enrolment scheme including zoning
is unavoidable.
--
Barry Phease
JD
> >
> > You've lost me here. So we should put our kids' names on every
> > school waiting list in the country?
>
> not getting into a school they are living near - so what!!! Plenty of
> people live next to schools that their kids do not go to because they choose
> another school or it is a school for the wrong gender.
You are missing the important concept here, that of choice. What is
loose in your head that defies the logic of living next to a school and
attending there?
This may come as a surprise to you, but school location is not the only
determinant in land pricing. If people are prepared to pay a premium,
why is it any of your concern?
Regardless of your utopian delusions, people of similar socioeconomic
class tend to group, despite your filthy fabian fantasies.
The statement "[z]oning is just way too much govt control" is
ludicrous. It is the government's responsibility to provide education
you dimwit.
Annemarie
"JD" <_antip...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1139542320.5...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
not agree with someone. It show a lack of intelligent arguement.
Zoning takes away freedom of choice, do you really not understand that?
JD
Rubbish. It's perfectly acceptable to call a spade a spade.
> It show a lack of intelligent arguement.
No, a lack of demonstrated intellect on usenet normally correlates with
poor spelling and grammar, as well as avoidance of direct questions or
rebuttal statements.
> Zoning takes away freedom of choice, do you really not understand that?
Zoning is more equitable than your alternatives. It defies logic that a
child who lives next to a public school, can't go there simply because
you want to create a stupid (and it is stupid) system of "first through
the gate". At no point have you given any thought to the possible, nay,
probable outcomes of your "plan" - apart from "so what!!!".
grumpyoldhori
> Will Auckland Grammar avoid taking Maori and Pacific Island
> pupils (unless they can demonstrate that they are good at rugby)?
Some prefer a whiter shade of Grammar.
grumpy
A. Lovejoy Prune
> Perhaps the answer may be to put all Auckland area secondary school staff
> into a ballot and draw lots to see who will teach at each school. This may
> help equalise the situation among Auckland schools.
>
Come on - how would you like it if you were arbitrarily sent to a
similar job at another part of town? You may have bought a house within
easy commute of your current workplace, but where you're sent is way
across town. Through no fault of your own, and without your having
applied to move to a position with a higher ranking and salary, off you
go - put up, shut up or give them the fingers up and go find a job
outside teaching!
A L P
A. Lovejoy Prune
> "Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
>> So what about all the people whose properties will drop in value if zoning
>> is removed? They may have bought in the area for reasons other than
>> schooling.
>
> But it is false or controled value. Schools should have nothing to do with
> property value and the sooner it gets back how it should be the better
>
>> Besides, house prices outside the Grammar zone, in St Heliers, Meadowbank,
>> Orakei, Kohimarama etc are still very high.
>>
>
>
*Everything* affects property value to some extent. A keen bowler would
be prepared to big more for a property near the bowling club than for
one far away. The desirability of those areas for childless people, or
those whose children are grown up, is not based on the proximity of a
school so the fact that they pay the high prices which have been driven
up by those who want to buy near the schools, means there is some other
perceived utility in living in those areas.
A L P
A. Lovejoy Prune
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:01:23 +1300, "Annemarie" <a...@bbb.com> wrote:
>
>> "Howard Edwards" <H.Ed...@massey.ac.nz> wrote in message
>>>>
>>> And tough luck for families whose breadwinner gets transferred to
>>> Auckland in November?
>>>
>>> Howard Edwards
>> Yep pretty much, zoning is no more fair, especially if they suddenly make
>> the zone smaller.
>>
>
> You've lost me here. So we should put our kids' names on every
> school waiting list in the country?
>
Perhaps some enterprising soul could do that with a variety of names and
dates of birth, then sell the places he "won". It's not that hard for a
family to change its name by deed poll, is it?
A L P
A. Lovejoy Prune
>
> In most cases people get as good an education at their local school as
> they would get at one of the fashionable schools. Mostly people are
> choosing the classmates for their progeny when the local school is too
> brown. In the few cases where a school is failing its students it is
> better for parents to get involved and fix the problems. Generally
> schools only fail for a few years, and even the fashionable schools can
> have periods where they fail to provide the best education for a large
> number of their pupils.
>
> When schools have to restrict numbers an enrolment scheme including zoning
> is unavoidable.
>
It's not just the education, it's also about connections. A lot in life
isn't about what you know, it's who you know. And the prestigious
schools have strong old boys' and old girls' networks which can be very
useful in later life. The parents are no doubt hoping that as well as
getting a good academic education their children will make the kind of
contacts that will serve them well in later life in their professions.
A word here, a word there, the recognition of the St Custard's O B Assn
tie.......
A L P
A. Lovejoy Prune
>
> In most cases people get as good an education at their local school as
> they would get at one of the fashionable schools. Mostly people are
> choosing the classmates for their progeny when the local school is too
> brown. In the few cases where a school is failing its students it is
> better for parents to get involved and fix the problems. Generally
> schools only fail for a few years, and even the fashionable schools can
> have periods where they fail to provide the best education for a large
> number of their pupils.
>
> When schools have to restrict numbers an enrolment scheme including zoning
> is unavoidable.
>
It's not just the education, it's also about connections. A lot in life
Annemarie
"A. Lovejoy Prune" <pon...@vanitas.net.nz> wrote in message
news:43ec...@clear.net.nz...
Oh of course everything affects property value, and school areas would still
affect it but in a natural way. If you had to live within 2 km of the
bowling club to be a member, that would be a different thing.
Annemarie
fact. It was the labour govt who introduced zoning simply because there
were a couple of cases of people living next door to a school who had not
got on the waiting list.
However the zoning causes a lot more interferance and problems to a whole
lot more people than a few who did not enrol their kids early.
Peter Ashby
> "Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
> news:V1PGf.139570$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > Annemarie wrote:
> >
> >> School zoning is a terrible idea, always was and always will be, the
> >> sooner they get rid of it the better. It causes inflated real estate in
> >> some areas, and deflated real estate in others. Apparently Auckland
> >> Grammar are getting too many people wanting to go to their school and it
> >> looks as if the zone is going to be reduced, which could mean people who
> >> have bought within the area at great cost will suddenly find themselves
> >> outside the zone and the value of their property dropping drastically.
> >
> > Well that's just tough. They should have bought well inside the zone.
> > So what about all the people whose properties will drop in value if zoning
> > is removed? They may have bought in the area for reasons other than
> > schooling.
>
> But it is false or controled value. Schools should have nothing to do with
> property value and the sooner it gets back how it should be the better
As long as there are schools which do, or are perceived to, have better
exam/sports/music/cultural results than others and there is a zone whose
residents have preferential entry then with enough children there will
be an economic premium on moving into the zone.
The solution is either to make all schools the same or to abolish
zoning. The former is almost impossible, the latter the cause of many
more problems as is seen down in England. We experienced that before we
moved north of the border, our eldest sat 3 sets of entry exams for
'good' secondary schools.
Here we first rented, then bought a house in the zone for the best local
school using our middling economic might.
Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
Matty F
> "JD" <_antip...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:1139545768.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>Zoning is more equitable than your alternatives. It defies logic that a
>>child who lives next to a public school, can't go there simply because
>>you want to create a stupid (and it is stupid) system of "first through
>>the gate". At no point have you given any thought to the possible, nay,
>>probable outcomes of your "plan" - apart from "so what!!!".
>>
>
> I have thought it through completely. It is the way that it used to be in
> fact. It was the labour govt who introduced zoning simply because there
> were a couple of cases of people living next door to a school who had not
> got on the waiting list.
> However the zoning causes a lot more interferance and problems to a whole
> lot more people than a few who did not enrol their kids early.
"It was the labour govt who introduced zoning" - so when was
that? Auckland Grammar has had zoning for at least 50 years,
apart from a short period.
Annemarie
"Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
throughtout the country was introduced by this govt soon after they got in
the first time.
Peter
> In the meantime, Auckland Grammar should shrink their zone a bit
> more,
It was suggested shrinking it from Upland Road to Orakei Road, but
apparently there are not many Grammar pupils in this area.
> and give priority to those who have lived in the zone the
> longest, e.g. at least some years.
This would need a change in zoning rules, and then what happens to those
legitimately 'in zone' (eg father transferred to Auckland) if they are then
'out of zone' or a long way from anything else.
> Besides, AGS is not that great - it just turns out rugby players
> and failed politicians. Who needs them?
Others seem to have an alternative opinion, otherwise why is it that
everyone wants to go, including quite a few who could afford to go to Kings
or St Kents.
Annemarie
"Peter Ashby" <pas...@blueyonder.co.ruk> wrote in message
news:1hakdd9.1yc9wps1fhowe8N%pas...@blueyonder.co.ruk...
You just have waiting lists for schools. Then siblings get preferential
entry. No exams. Many popular private schools do this, either you get on
the list early enough to get in, or you don't. Eliminating zoning would
mean more mixed pupils and therefore would lift the average of the not so
good schools. Whats more it would remove the influence of zoning from real
estate.
Matty F
> "Matty F" <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote in message
> news:gQ9Hf.141363$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>>"It was the labour govt who introduced zoning" - so when was that?
>>Auckland Grammar has had zoning for at least 50 years, apart from a short
>>period.
>>
>
> That may have been a choice of theirs, I am unaware. Compulsory zoning
> throughtout the country was introduced by this govt soon after they got in
> the first time.
John Morris, the headmaster of Auckland Grammar, seems to be
driving this attempt to remove zoning. That school certainly
wants to keep their "pass rates" as high as possible, by
excluding as many low achieving students as possible from
enrolling in the first place.
He says:
"In the 1960s and 1970s every school was zoned and every school
had the right to take approximately 40 students from out of zone.
No doubt some schools were in greater demand than others even in
those days, but there was certainly a far greater homogeneity
across the secondary school sector.
All schools seemingly provided the same quality of education and
the same opportunities for children to succeed. Zoning in that
meritocratic society worked acceptably.
The world, however, has changed. Attitudes have changed,
aspirations have changed, and the composition of New Zealand's
population has also changed along with the social mores.
All this has had an impact on education and schools and what was
once a fairly homogeneous landscape of secondary schools is now
one of huge diversity. No longer do all schools have the same
philosophies, expectations, resources, ethnicity."
-------------------------------
Ah, "ethnicity". I think that's what he is on about.
I don't follow his reasoning otherwise. What was wrong with the
zoning of the 1960s and 1970s?
Matty F
> Matty F wrote:
>
>
>
>>In the meantime, Auckland Grammar should shrink their zone a bit
>>more,
>
>
> It was suggested shrinking it from Upland Road to Orakei Road, but
> apparently there are not many Grammar pupils in this area.
Then shift the zone to Victoria Ave, and build another school in
Meadowbank or nearby. There is lots of spare land. There's even a
bloody great golf course in Remuera.
>>Besides, AGS is not that great - it just turns out rugby players
>>and failed politicians. Who needs them?
>
>
> Others seem to have an alternative opinion, otherwise why is it that
> everyone wants to go, including quite a few who could afford to go to Kings
> or St Kents.
Certainly not everyone wants to go to Auckland Grammar. I
wouldn't want to go there or send my kids there. Many people are
deluded about the quality of schooling there. Many ex-pupils
don't do well at University.
Peter Ashby
And people who move into an area have only unpopular schools to choose
from because they had no chance to 'get on the list early enough'. It
also disadvantages those children whose parents are not pro-active
enough to get them on the list. You have admitted the system is used by
private schools and this tells you everything you need to know. Such a
system would be captured by the motivated, informed, influential middle
classes and everyone else would be left with the less popular schools so
stratification of society is increased and entrenched.
They system for private schools also works well because, being private,
they are not at risk of being over subscribed. In the state system under
that scheme all schools perceived as 'good' would become instantly
massively oversubscribed.
Annemarie
"Peter Ashby" <pas...@blueyonder.co.ruk> wrote in message
Oh I think just the opposite. Zoning creates wealthy areas where poorer
people cannot possibly afford to live. Believe it or not motivated parents
come from all levels of society. Whats more you would end up with socio
economically more mixed schools and I think that would lift the standard of
all the schools.
>
> They system for private schools also works well because, being private,
> they are not at risk of being over subscribed. In the state system under
> that scheme all schools perceived as 'good' would become instantly
> massively oversubscribed.
>
> Peter
> --
Well many private schools have long waiting lists, not really that big a
deal.
Dibley Fanshaw
Matty F <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote:
> Certainly not everyone wants to go to Auckland Grammar. I
> wouldn't want to go there or send my kids there. Many people are
> deluded about the quality of schooling there. Many ex-pupils
> don't do well at University.
Surely that's more to do with the kids than the school. Daddy being able
to afford to send Little Willie to the school of Daddy's choice, when
Little Willie is looking forward to a career as a Wealthy Young
Layabout, spending Daddy's fortune.
It is/was conspicuous that in Christchurch, Papanui High
(middling-decile) had a better percentage gaining degrees than Burnside
(high-decile). Burnside's kids went to Uni because that was the next
step expected of them. The much smaller percentage of Pap pupils who
went to Uni were highly motivated because Uni wasn't expected of them,
so they 'tried harder'.
--
Dibley
Matty F
The problem with Auckland Grammar pupils is that they are so used
to being told what to do and how to do it, that when they get to
University or the real world, they have no self-motivation, and
many of them fail.
I can't off-hand think of any high-achieving successful Grammar
Old Boys (excluding sportsmen who of course don't really matter),
apart from two who were high achievers despite being ridiculed by
that school.
Brian Dooley
wrote:
snip---
>Schools should have nothing to do with
>property value and the sooner it gets back how it should be the better
But it's always been that way, so there's nowhere to get back to.
--
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Brian Dooley
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:28:33 +1300, Matty F
<ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote:
>I see a number of people, e.g John Morris and a Herald editorial,
>suggesting getting rid of school zoning.
>
>Under school zoning, pupils living near the school have the right
>to go to that school.
>
>How will that work if zoning is abolished?
>Do the schools just pick and choose the pupils they want?
>On what basis will they choose pupils?
Scholarships. That's what they did when I was a kid, and from
Peter Ashby's post it seems as though they still do in England.
Annemarie would just have to hope that her kids would be smart
enough to pass the entrance exam.
>What do the pupils who live right next to the school do, if they
>are not selected to go to that school? Will they have to be
>bussed to another school, at greater cost and causing more
>traffic congestion?
That would be a Headmaster's nightmare.
Brian Dooley
So it's the same the world over, and my experience (two kids all
the way through in Wellington Central) indicates that it always
has been - and a new set of concerned parents (ex-, current or
potential) think they've finally cracked it.
And they have to be kidding.
There are no new answers.
Brian Dooley
I wonder how Annemarie would fancy competitive entry, such as you
describe in England - not so good if you have thick kids.
Howard Edwards
wrote:
>On , , Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:53:16 +1300, Re: School zoning, or the
>alternative, Howard Edwards <H.Ed...@massey.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>>And tough luck for families whose breadwinner gets transferred to
>>Auckland in November?
>
>Tough shit. The breadwinner whould have thought about his
>promotion before he so seriously disadvantaged his kids.
>
>---
>
>"I prefer the pleasure of writing bits of nonsense to that of wearing
>an embroidered coat which costs 800 francs." (Stendhal)
So anyone with a teenage family will always be discouraged from
accepting a transfer. You think that's a good thing?
Howard Edwards
Howard Edwards
No you haven't thought it through completely. I point out the
inequitable consequences on families who transfer and you say "so
what!!!"
Sure zoning has its problems. What you don't seem to be capable of
taking on board is that abolishing zoning creates problems too.
Howard Edwards
Annemarie
"Brian Dooley" <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:d7dvu1l7rk66vtcqa...@4ax.com...
Annemarie
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:34:16 +1300, "Annemarie" <a...@bbb.com>
> wrote:
>
> snip---
>
>>Schools should have nothing to do with
>>property value and the sooner it gets back how it should be the better
>
> But it's always been that way, so there's nowhere to get back to.
> --
particular school, have a house of superior standard yet it is of lesser
value simply because it is not in a particular school zone. With waiting
lists it would make no difference. It would be about the area and the
standard of the house.
Brian Dooley
wrote:
>
>"Peter" <pet...@parazzdise.net.nz> wrote in message
>news:43eb...@clear.net.nz...
>> Matty F wrote:
>>
>>> I see a number of people, e.g John Morris and a Herald editorial,
>>> suggesting getting rid of school zoning.
>>>
>>> Under school zoning, pupils living near the school have the right
>>> to go to that school.
>>>
>>> How will that work if zoning is abolished?
>>> Do the schools just pick and choose the pupils they want?
>>> On what basis will they choose pupils?
>>> What do the pupils who live right next to the school do, if they
>>> are not selected to go to that school? Will they have to be
>>> bussed to another school, at greater cost and causing more
>>> traffic congestion?
>>
>> The more serious question is the rorts that take place in Auckland with
>> respect to Grammar Zone. The zoning of Auckland Grammar and EGGS seems to
>> have far more related difficulties than zoning of any other schools (there
>> seems a less of a problem in Wellington for example).
>>
>> This means that Auckland Grammar has to put significant resources into
>> detecting these rorts or face an enrolment blowout. Shrinking the zone
>> would not help as these rorts will continue in the shrunk zone.
>>
>> Perhaps the answer may be to put all Auckland area secondary school staff
>> into a ballot and draw lots to see who will teach at each school. This
>> may
>> help equalise the situation among Auckland schools.
>>
>
>Just do away with zoning, then it would balance out. It is a terrible
>system that has created a terrible problem
>There are zoning problems in the Wellington area btw, but perhaps not as bad
>as Auckland.
>
Where?
Brian Dooley
<ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote:
>Peter wrote:
>
>> The more serious question is the rorts that take place in Auckland with
>> respect to Grammar Zone. The zoning of Auckland Grammar and EGGS seems to
>> have far more related difficulties than zoning of any other schools (there
>> seems a less of a problem in Wellington for example).
>
>Part of the problem is that there is no secondary school between
>Auckland Grammar and Selwyn College, so both schools are very
>large. They should have built a new school midway, many years
>ago. I think a new secondary school is to be built near
>Meadowbank, which is an excellent idea.
>
>In the meantime, Auckland Grammar should shrink their zone a bit
>more, and give priority to those who have lived in the zone the
>longest, e.g. at least some years.
>Besides, AGS is not that great - it just turns out rugby players
>and failed politicians. Who needs them?
Whereas Wellington College turns out governors-general and
bishops.
Matty F
I'm not impressed by them either.
Which secondary schools turn out the top doctors, scientists,
engineers, architects, computer programmers etc?
Peter Ashby
You can say something as many times as you like but it won't make it
true, even if you are Donald Rumsfeld.
Peter Ashby
Well the Education White paper which is being fought over mightily over
here will as a bill, if its opponents get their way, ban selection on
grounds of ability, and also ban interviews.
I wouldn't want any 11 year old child to have to go through what our
eldest went through to get into a good school. She partly drove herself
since she fiercely didn't want to go to the local girls comprehensive as
the classmates which made her life hell were all going and there was a
policy of keeping incoming classmates together.
What was frustrating for us was that we were 95% sure we were moving up
here to Scotland at the end of the year, but she needed to be in school
for that term and we had had other 95% sure chances dashed before.
Caught between a rock and a hard place is not fun.
A. Lovejoy Prune
> Brian Dooley <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> I wonder how Annemarie would fancy competitive entry, such as you
>> describe in England - not so good if you have thick kids.
>
> Well the Education White paper which is being fought over mightily over
> here will as a bill, if its opponents get their way, ban selection on
> grounds of ability, and also ban interviews.
>
> I wouldn't want any 11 year old child to have to go through what our
> eldest went through to get into a good school. She partly drove herself
> since she fiercely didn't want to go to the local girls comprehensive as
> the classmates which made her life hell were all going and there was a
> policy of keeping incoming classmates together.
>
> What was frustrating for us was that we were 95% sure we were moving up
> here to Scotland at the end of the year, but she needed to be in school
> for that term and we had had other 95% sure chances dashed before.
> Caught between a rock and a hard place is not fun.
Wouldn't zoning have been just as bad for her? She would have had to go
to her local school with the local bullies, wouldn't she, unless an
out-of-zone school was able to take her.
It may have been hell but at least she had some degree of control over
her own fate. Actually when you're up against bullies, child or adult,
life sucks. I don't know that there is a perfect answer.
A L P
Matty F
> It may have been hell but at least she had some degree of control over
> her own fate. Actually when you're up against bullies, child or adult,
> life sucks. I don't know that there is a perfect answer.
When your child is bullied at school, you speak to the head
teacher and ask about their policy on stopping bullying.
You put the incident in writing, so that if it happens again the
head cannot deny that you have already complained. If it happens
again you contact the board of trustees. If the head does not act
they sack him/her.
Peter Ashby
> Peter Ashby wrote:
> > Brian Dooley <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >> I wonder how Annemarie would fancy competitive entry, such as you
> >> describe in England - not so good if you have thick kids.
> >
> > Well the Education White paper which is being fought over mightily over
> > here will as a bill, if its opponents get their way, ban selection on
> > grounds of ability, and also ban interviews.
> >
> > I wouldn't want any 11 year old child to have to go through what our
> > eldest went through to get into a good school. She partly drove herself
> > since she fiercely didn't want to go to the local girls comprehensive as
> > the classmates which made her life hell were all going and there was a
> > policy of keeping incoming classmates together.
> >
> > What was frustrating for us was that we were 95% sure we were moving up
> > here to Scotland at the end of the year, but she needed to be in school
> > for that term and we had had other 95% sure chances dashed before.
> > Caught between a rock and a hard place is not fun.
>
> Wouldn't zoning have been just as bad for her? She would have had to go
> to her local school with the local bullies, wouldn't she, unless an
> out-of-zone school was able to take her.
In London you are never in zone for only one school. It is just that
because of the selection policies zoning doesn't mean much. So under
zoning NZ style there would have been more effective choice and no
necessity to put her through those pressure exams.
> It may have been hell but at least she had some degree of control over
> her own fate. Actually when you're up against bullies, child or adult,
> life sucks. I don't know that there is a perfect answer.
There isn't, her bullying wasn't of the physical kind it was a group of
dominant girls in her class who decided that noone else was allowed to
talk to our daughter and had the fear of exclusion to back it up. Her
only friend was a girl in another class in a similar situation. This is
not something that can be fixed by notifiying the teacher.
A. Lovejoy Prune
That *is* bullying. It is absolutely typical of girl bullying. Girl
bullying is far more likely to take that form than the more physical
kind done by boys. Have a look at http://www.bullyonline.org .
A L P
Peter Ashby
Oh I agree that it was still bullying. Unfortunately you cannot force
people to be friends which is why it is so pernicious. I can see the
logic of keeping classes together but it needs to be bourne in mind that
not all relationships are positive for all concerned.
A. Lovejoy Prune
> A. Lovejoy Prune <pon...@vanitas.net.nz> wrote:
>
>> Peter Ashby wrote:
>>> A. Lovejoy Prune <pon...@vanitas.net.nz> wrote:
>>>> It may have been hell but at least she had some degree of control over
>>>> her own fate. Actually when you're up against bullies, child or adult,
>>>> life sucks. I don't know that there is a perfect answer.
>>> There isn't, her bullying wasn't of the physical kind it was a group of
>>> dominant girls in her class who decided that noone else was allowed to
>>> talk to our daughter and had the fear of exclusion to back it up. Her
>>> only friend was a girl in another class in a similar situation. This is
>>> not something that can be fixed by notifiying the teacher.
>>>
>> That *is* bullying. It is absolutely typical of girl bullying. Girl
>> bullying is far more likely to take that form than the more physical
>> kind done by boys. Have a look at http://www.bullyonline.org .
>
> Oh I agree that it was still bullying. Unfortunately you cannot force
> people to be friends which is why it is so pernicious. I can see the
> logic of keeping classes together but it needs to be bourne in mind that
> not all relationships are positive for all concerned.
>
"Sending to Coventry" is bigger than just not being friends, much more
serious. It is something that can be reported to the authorities, and
backed up with a demand that the child be kept safe while at school
either by intervening in the behaviour of the bullies or by shifting the
bullied child to another class. Her teachers must have been very
unobservant, or perhaps because it's the kind of behaviour that CAN be
ignored - unlike physical violence which leaves marks and blood - it was
"anything for a quiet life" father than confront the problem. My
sympathy to you and your daughter for what she endured. I hope she is
with a better group now.
A L P
Brian Dooley
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:30:07 +1300, "Annemarie" <a...@bbb.com>
wrote:
snip---
>I have said a number of times, waiting lists is the best way.
And we heard you.
Who could not?
Brian Dooley
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:46:23 GMT, pas...@blueyonder.co.ruk (Peter
Ashby) wrote:
>A. Lovejoy Prune <pon...@vanitas.net.nz> wrote:
>
>> Peter Ashby wrote:
>> > Brian Dooley <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>> >> I wonder how Annemarie would fancy competitive entry, such as you
>> >> describe in England - not so good if you have thick kids.
>> >
>> > Well the Education White paper which is being fought over mightily over
>> > here will as a bill, if its opponents get their way, ban selection on
>> > grounds of ability, and also ban interviews.
What are they proposing?
Tossing for it?
>> >
>> > I wouldn't want any 11 year old child to have to go through what our
>> > eldest went through to get into a good school. She partly drove herself
>> > since she fiercely didn't want to go to the local girls comprehensive as
>> > the classmates which made her life hell were all going and there was a
>> > policy of keeping incoming classmates together.
>> >
>> > What was frustrating for us was that we were 95% sure we were moving up
>> > here to Scotland at the end of the year, but she needed to be in school
>> > for that term and we had had other 95% sure chances dashed before.
>> > Caught between a rock and a hard place is not fun.
>>
>> Wouldn't zoning have been just as bad for her? She would have had to go
>> to her local school with the local bullies, wouldn't she, unless an
>> out-of-zone school was able to take her.
>
>In London you are never in zone for only one school. It is just that
>because of the selection policies zoning doesn't mean much. So under
>zoning NZ style there would have been more effective choice and no
>necessity to put her through those pressure exams.
>
>> It may have been hell but at least she had some degree of control over
>> her own fate. Actually when you're up against bullies, child or adult,
>> life sucks. I don't know that there is a perfect answer.
>
>There isn't, her bullying wasn't of the physical kind it was a group of
>dominant girls in her class who decided that noone else was allowed to
>talk to our daughter and had the fear of exclusion to back it up. Her
>only friend was a girl in another class in a similar situation. This is
>not something that can be fixed by notifiying the teacher.
I have a feeling that that is a female response.
Brian Dooley
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:40:12 +1300, Matty F
<ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote:
>Brian Dooley wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:59:20 +1300, Matty F
>> <ma...@INVALIDflebus.nz> wrote:
>
>>>Besides, AGS is not that great - it just turns out rugby players
>>>and failed politicians. Who needs them?
>>
>>
>> Whereas Wellington College turns out governors-general and
>> bishops.
>
>I'm not impressed by them either.
But one of them was Freyberg VC and another was a tram driver's
son.
>Which secondary schools turn out the top doctors, scientists,
>engineers, architects, computer programmers etc?
--
Brian Dooley
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:32:24 +1300, "Annemarie" <a...@bbb.com>
wrote:
Are you saying that your kid didn't make the cut?
Peter Ashby
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:46:23 GMT, pas...@blueyonder.co.ruk (Peter
> Ashby) wrote:
>
> >A. Lovejoy Prune <pon...@vanitas.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> >> Peter Ashby wrote:
> >> > Brian Dooley <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I wonder how Annemarie would fancy competitive entry, such as you
> >> >> describe in England - not so good if you have thick kids.
> >> >
> >> > Well the Education White paper which is being fought over mightily over
> >> > here will as a bill, if its opponents get their way, ban selection on
> >> > grounds of ability, and also ban interviews.
>
> What are they proposing?
Depends on who 'they' are. The govt wants schools to be able select and
to effectively ignore zoning, however they are being forced to
compromise and one of the compromises is to outlaw selection on the
grounds of ability and do it with legal teeth instead of 'guidelines'.
It is unclear what will eventually emerge, it depends on how messianic
our dear Leader is feeling I suspect.
> Tossing for it?
Oh no, not here. Quangos comprising appeals boards for those who do not
get into the school of their choice I suspect.
The general problem is that while the govt acknowledges the gap between
good and bad schools needs closing, the reality is that good schools are
good because they cherry pick their pupils while the difficult and the
feckless get left with schools at the bottom of the pile with the
dissillusioned teachers*. Levelling the playing field involves spreading
the kids out more evenly and that is anathema to the middle classes who
are adept at capturing state schools for themselves.
A recent study has shown that church primary schools here (in the state
system) achieve their good results by having a lower proportion of poor
kids than their surrounding area, the poor kids are all in the secular
schools. The proportion of poor kids can be measured using entitlement
to free school meals so it is easy to do, you don't need the financial
details of all the parents.
Peter
*this is deliberate generalised shorthand, not a statistical report,
however it is a reflection of the statistics.
Peter Ashby
I suspect she is bemoaning a lack of value in her house. Either because
the zone moved or she bought and then learned she wasn't in the zone.
Peter
Brian Dooley
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:48:27 GMT, pas...@blueyonder.co.ruk (Peter
Ashby) wrote:
In my childhood and place nearly all the primary schools were
church schools. I can only think of one which was a 'council'
school.
When everybody walked everywhere and there were churches all over
the place you would go to the most convenient - unless you were
RC.
>The proportion of poor kids can be measured using entitlement
>to free school meals so it is easy to do, you don't need the financial
>details of all the parents.
>
>Peter
>*this is deliberate generalised shorthand, not a statistical report,
>however it is a reflection of the statistics.
--
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Peter Ashby
There are still a lot of them about down South of the border, but more
council schools too. Up here we generally have Catholic schools and the
rest, which means in places like Glasgow and Lanarkshire if you're
Catholic you go to your own school and if you are protestant or anything
else you go to the council school thus entrenching sectarianism. There
are some attempts to combine schools driven by the reality of falling
rolls but the Catholic hierarchy seem incredibly paranoid about the
issue. One such project got stymied because the combined schools didn't
have separate entrances for Catholics and the Rest (which would of
course have made the whole thing pointless).
I'm not against diversity but you have to very careful it doesn't lead
to ghettoisation (terrible word that one).
Peter