Capacitor plague, Theft? Espionage?
Robert Cooze
monitor, DVD recorder and finally a set top box. When will it end....
All stopped working with in a month of each other.
whoisthis
William Brown <wbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 06:18:45 +0000 (UTC), Boots
> <boots...@for.walking.com> wrote:
> >How old were they?
>
> It does not matter.
>
> All covered by the C.G.A as these are well know as faulty caps and
> stacks of info on the Net about it.
>
> Get some of the Net Articles and shove it up the retailers nose.
It DOES matter, and so does the quality of the goods.
The CGA says goods must be durable, ie have a reasonable expectation of
life, however one can not expect some cheap crap chinese no name product
to have the same life expectancy as a well known brand, especialy if you
pay bugger all for it.
In general consumer electronics is in the 5-10 year area, computers in
the 3-5.
Robert Cooze
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 19:14:33 +1300, Robert Cooze wrote:
>
>
>
most of the items in question where second hand from my perspective most
have had little use as where I got them from I knew how they where used
most where around the 5 year mark but with only a years normal use on em,
Hell I can replace the caps if I wanted to the statement was how long
will the problem (suspect parts) be found in devices
RayC
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/sandy-bridge-flaw-recall/
http://techlogg.com/2011/02/gigabyte-australia-issues-sandy-bridge-recall/2102
just google "gigabyte recall" for more
i found out as my upgrade package order has been cancelled, no new boards i
orderd for 2-3 months,
i was offered an AMD upgrade to next model up the price scale.
what do i do????
victor
Can you choose an Intel chipset that isn't affected ?
~misfit~
You don't have much choice if you want the latest generation Intel CPU.
Here's Ascent's page for Socket 1155 motherboards:
http://www.ascent.co.nz/Category.aspx?majorcatID=37&minorCatID=305
Take your pick.
--
Shaun.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
~misfit~
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 21:40:47 +1300, Robert Cooze wrote:
>
>>> How old were they?
>>>
>>>
>> most of the items in question where second hand from my perspective
>> most have had little use as where I got them from I knew how they
>> where used most where around the 5 year mark but with only a years
>> normal use on em,
>
>
> There was a period of time where defective capacitors were being
> manufactured. But given that was now quite some time ago and your
> gear is second hand I would doubt if you could get the capacitors
> replaced unless you either do it yourself or you pay someone to do it.
I think that you'll find that the Taiwanese wet aluminium electrolytic
capacitor sector is *still* producing poor-quality product. These capacitors
get into the lowest-priced consumer electronics and result in a reduced
lifespan.
All of the major motherboard manufacturers mid and premium range products
proudly use either solid or Japanese-made wet electros and even the sub-$100
Skt 775 GB mATX mobo I bought last month (Gigabyte GA-G41M Combo) states
boldly on the front of the box that it uses solid capacitors in the CPU VRM
(the most highly-stressed caps on a mobo). The rest (RAM, PCI/e areas) are
less highly stressed so are likely second-rate Taiwanese wet electros.
Buyers of non-computer electronics aren't as aware of the capacitor plague
and it's consequences so the types of capacitors used don't feature in the
advertising.
After the "capacitor plague" became well-known it's not like the Japanese
company/ies whose formula was stolen suddenly decided to give the Taiwanese
companies the correct formula. Sales of Japanese wet electros went back up
and sales of Taiwanese product went down (but didn't stop). The Taiwanese
have been frantically working on the problem ever since and have had limited
success but still haven't succeeded in making components that are as good as
the Japanese sourced ones.
Ergo budget-priced consumer electronics are still prone to capacitor
failure. However, due to progress in the stability of the wet component of
the wet ali can electros when they fail it's not obvious like it used to be.
People like me can't look at the board, see the swollen or leaking caps and
replace them easilly. They usually fail without outwardly-visible signs and
even if you can test, isolate and replace whichever cap is currently
stopping the device from working the chances are that another will fail in a
few months.
Unless you're prepared to replace all of the ali can electros on a regular
basis then you have to accept that, simply put, you get what you pay for.
They'll likely last around 150 - 200% of the warranty period under normal
usage. Then throw them away and go back to The Warehouse for another.
(Unless you have an excellent and cheap source of quality Japanese electros
and the ability to replace them all.... In which case you're likely better
off putting that money towards buying a better quality unit in the first
place.)
John Little
> I think that you'll find that the Taiwanese wet aluminium electrolytic
> capacitor sector is *still* producing poor-quality product. These capacitors
> get into the lowest-priced consumer electronics and result in a reduced
> lifespan.
Really? Bugger.
...
> People like me can't look at the board, see the swollen or leaking caps and
> replace them easily. They usually fail without outwardly-visible signs and
> even if you can test, isolate and replace whichever cap is currently
> stopping the device from working the chances are that another will fail in a
> few months.
I've got a screen that failed one day with some swollen caps, that
I've hung on to with the vague idea of replacing the caps. You
suggest that it's not worth trying, do you agree?
Regards, John
Simon
> In general consumer electronics is in the 5-10 year area, computers in
> the 3-5.
Which certainly makes a mockery of the "extended warranties" sold by
the big name electronics stores.
Simon
> > There was a period of time where defective capacitors were being
> > manufactured. But given that was now quite some time ago and your
> > gear is second hand I would doubt if you could get the capacitors
> > replaced unless you either do it yourself or you pay someone to do it.
>
> I think that you'll find that the Taiwanese wet aluminium electrolytic
> capacitor sector is *still* producing poor-quality product. These capacitors
> get into the lowest-priced consumer electronics and result in a reduced
> lifespan.
I do agree with what you've written above, but let's remember that
we're talking about two different things now: defective capacitors
versus (so called) budget capacitors.
Robert Cooze
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 21:40:47 +1300, Robert Cooze wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>> most of the items in question where second hand from my perspective most
>> have had little use as where I got them from I knew how they where used
>> most where around the 5 year mark but with only a years normal use on
>> em,
>
>
> manufactured. But given that was now quite some time ago and your gear is
> second hand I would doubt if you could get the capacitors replaced unless
> you either do it yourself or you pay someone to do it.
>
>
I have in the past replaced all sorts of caps and other electronic parts
in all manner of equipment
All of the stuff I bought new from 1989 I have kept the receipts and
dated when I sold or decommissioned the item. So when push came shove I
have evidence on how long stuff should last.
it is the comment that is is 2011 how long will these caps and problems
start to stop showing there ugly bulging cases :)
~misfit~
No, if you can see obviously swollen caps then it's likely worth trying.
What I'm saying is that although 'they' still don't have a stable formula at
least in the newer caps they've reduced / eliminated the swelling / leaking
/ bursting problems. This makes it harder to pin-point the problem. :-/
Therefore if your screen has swollen caps the chances are that the swollen
ones are the ones that are defective and preventing the circuit from working
as it should. There are a few older LCD monitors that are known to have
issues with capacitors (model and 'capacitor problem' in Google could well
help), particularly HP and Philips.
I have a couple of HP LCD monitors here and, although they're fine at the
moment (they've had hardly any use, 15" things that I got from a friend)
Google tells me that they're known to have cap issues in the power circuitry
and gives me detailed instructions on which ones to replace.
Cheers,
~misfit~
Actually we're not. The 'budget capacitors' *are* the defective capacitors
of yesteryear, only the wet electolyte doesn't have nearly the same
volitility issues that caused previous units to swell and leak (now they
just go out-of-spec without showing it). They're still not stable (most
Taiwanese ali can electros) however they don't show it so much when they
fail. And they still do fail. They *still* haven't got the formula right. If
you want good caps that last more than a few years then you buy Japanese
caps but you pay at least three times as much for them.
Simon
wrote:
> Actually we're not. The 'budget capacitors' *are* the defective capacitors
> of yesteryear,
Well, the Dairy down the road had a special the other day on expired
chocolate. I guess we should hook these guys up with each other.
John Little
> > I've got a screen that failed one day with some swollen caps, that
> > I've hung on to with the vague idea of replacing the caps. You
> > suggest that it's not worth trying, do you agree?
~misfit~ replied:
> No, if you can see obviously swollen caps then it's likely worth trying...
> ... if your screen has swollen caps the chances are that the swollen
> ones are the ones that are defective and preventing the circuit from working
> as it should.
Thank you.
>There are a few older LCD monitors that are known to have
> issues with capacitors (model and 'capacitor problem' in Google could well
> help), particularly HP and Philips.
Yes, it's a Philips.
Regards, John
~misfit~
Hi John.
It might be worth a shot putting it's model number and 'replace capacitors'
or similar into Google. As I mentioned I've found some sites with quite
detailed instructions in the past. Real 'walk-thrus' telling you which caps
are the problem (even if they're not 'showing'), it's great when someone
else has already done the work. ;-)
John Little
> It might be worth a shot putting it's model number and 'replace capacitors'
> or similar into Google.
Worth a try, but I found nothing specific to my monitor, or anything
close.
Regards, John
John Little
> I think that you'll find that the Taiwanese wet aluminium electrolytic
> capacitor sector is *still* producing poor-quality product. These capacitors
> get into the lowest-priced consumer electronics and result in a reduced
> lifespan.
I, or friends and family, have had a lot of mains power adapters fail
over the last year or so; cell phone chargers mostly, but also the one
for a HP OfficeJet printer/copier/fax. (Replacing that was a
mission, but it arrived today under warranty from HP!)
Are these failures likely the result of the OP's "plague"?
Regards, John
Roger_Nickel
Most of the new adapters use a transformer driven at high frequency to
step the voltage down. The transformers are small and have a small self-
inductance which makes them poor filters of high frequency energy. Short
voltage spikes of 1200 volts or more are not unusual on the mains
(lightning, energy dumped from electric motors windings on switch-off
etc.). The electronic components in the adapter are right in the firing
line and the active devices are especially at risk.
The capacitors don't get off lightly either. Some of them have high
voltages and high ripple current at high frequencies across them. Maybe
they are designed for this application and maybe not. High ripple
current, high frequency capacitors are expensive. Heat is the enemy, heat
degrades the electrolyte and raises the ESR. Increased ESR means that the
ripple current causes more heating as it passes through the capacitor
which further degrades the electrolyte and it all ends badly. At least
electrolytics don't usually explode or burst into flames these days.
Another reason is that domestic electronics is no longer built to last,
why bother? it will soon be thrown out anyway and the market has spoken.
People want cheap!. Components are marginally rated and heat sinks are
none-existent or diminutive. Roughly speaking, every 10 degree C.
temperature rise halves the life of electronics.
~misfit~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30328/printArticle.html
Going back to the late 90s most all of the Asian low ESR capacitors were
sourced from Japan and were expensive. Do you remember the price of
motherboards and electronics back then?
Well, people decided that there was money to be made. From the second URL:
"The story describing how the electrolytes came to be faulty reads like a
lot of fiction. It begins in Japan, at a major capacitor manufacturer. A
materials scientist for the Japanese company resigned and went to work for a
Chinese capacitor manufacturer. While there, he reproduced one of the
electrolytes used in his former employer's premium (low-ESR) aluminium
electrolytic products.
Staff working with the scientist then defected, taking the secret
electrolyte formula with them. They used the formula to manufacture their
own electrolyte, which they subsequently flogged to major Taiwanese
capacitor manufacturers at bargain prices. Unfortunately, their reproduction
of the formula was flawed and the rest is history."
The thing is, these Taiwanese companies that were built around having the
flawed formula are still in operation, doing their own R&D. trying to
stanilise the formula and still largely getting it wrong (although not as
wrong as they initially had it). They've largely fixed the reaction between
the aluminium and the electrolyte that was producing hydrogen gas but still
don't have it right.
The Japanese companies who make seriously good (and seriously expensive)
low-ESR electros didn't get to where they are overnight. It took them
decades to develop their formulas. If you're as old as I am you'll remember
how, when you were a child, 'Made in Japan' at first meant cheap and
unreliable, a decade or two later it came to mean quality. The Japanese put
in the hard years and it paid off. The Taiwanese companies didn't, they just
wanted a slice of the money and paid for 'the formula', not realising that
it was more closely-guarded than nuclear material.
Perhaps in another decade some of the Taiwanese companies will get it right.
In the mean time they're still selling cheap, faulty low-ESR electros. The
people who choose their consumer goods on price will have electros inside
that are one fifth of the price of Japanese ones, and they *will* fail in a
couple of years or so.
The best motherboards have 'uses Japanese capacitors' on the box. The
mid-range ones have 'in the CPU VRM' after that as they're the most stressed
caps so they keep the prices down by using Taiwanese caps for the rest of
the board. You get what you pay for.
Unfortunately, outside of the computer component business (where the buyers
are fairly informed) the hoi polloi just want cheap electronic goods and
there aren't really 'tiers' to chose from; You get crap or you spend 5x as
much (usually on European-made, with Japanese electros inside) and you get
quality. You don't have the choices that you do when you buy a motherboard.
It saddens me that, for the sake of another ~25% spent on components the
device could have spent >15 years in service instead of 3, then forever in
the landfill.
<shrug> Whaddya gonna do?
~misfit~
Oh well. :-(
Perhaps the culprits will present themselves. If not try to isolate the main
power filtering caps and swap those out.
Best,
Tony
>On , , 10 Feb 2011 21:36:11 +1300, Re: Capacitor plague, Theft? Espionage?,
>Roger_Nickel <r...@forgetit.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 02:18:45 -0800, John Little wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2:42 pm, "~misfit~" <sore_n_ha...@nospamyahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that you'll find that the Taiwanese wet aluminium electrolytic
>>>> capacitor sector is *still* producing poor-quality product. These
>>>> capacitors get into the lowest-priced consumer electronics and result
>>>> in a reduced lifespan.
>>>
>>> I, or friends and family, have had a lot of mains power adapters fail
>>> over the last year or so; cell phone chargers mostly, but also the one
>>> for a HP OfficeJet printer/copier/fax. (Replacing that was a mission,
>>> but it arrived today under warranty from HP!)
>>>
>>> Are these failures likely the result of the OP's "plague"?
>>>
>>> Regards, John
>>
>>Most of the new adapters use a transformer driven at high frequency to
>>step the voltage down. The transformers are small and have a small self-
>>inductance which makes them poor filters of high frequency energy. Short
>>voltage spikes of 1200 volts or more are not unusual on the mains
>>(lightning, energy dumped from electric motors windings on switch-off
>>etc.). The electronic components in the adapter are right in the firing
>>line and the active devices are especially at risk.
>
>a power filter first then a UPS.
>I find things last longer.
>I used to use an isolating transformer.
If you use a decent UPS then the power filter is redundant.
Some printers, especially a few HP ones, do not happily co-exist with power
filters.
An isolating transformer probably adds no value at all.
Tony
Tony
>On , , Fri, 11 Feb 2011 01:48:01 -0600, Re: Capacitor plague, Theft?
>Espionage?,
APC is a very good make, if the model you have conditions the power then the
power filter is redundant.
>
>>Some printers, especially a few HP ones, do not happily co-exist with power
>>filters.
>
>All of my HP printers seem to work allright.
>I obviously haven't found the ones that won't work yet <H>!
>
>>An isolating transformer probably adds no value at all.
>
>I realised that after a while.
>The isolating transformer was one I repossessed and was sitting around doing
>nothing.
>
>--
>"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
>to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
>Anatole France.
Tony