Why Can't NYC Get Things Done?
John Coviello
Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this fall.
What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
--
John Coviello
Web Developer/Technical Documentation Specialist
http://www.position-trader.com/
http://www.gti.net/mrbear/
http://www.pair.com/frs/
Paul Matus
John Coviello <Joh...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:375DE5C9...@rcn.com...
> Why do things take sooooooooooo long to get done in NYC? The
> Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
> is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
> rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
> Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this fall.
> What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
I suppose most people would put NIMBYs and $$$ at the top of the list, but I
would add failures of planning, vision and management.
If the City and regional agencies could concentrate on any single project
hrough to completion, things might move a little faster.
Ralph Herman
Paul Matus <pma...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:cZs73.2392$09.51...@news.optonline.net...
One group (or one individual) can stop just about any project as long as
he/she has a judge on their side.
Ralph
an...@columbia.edu
John Coviello <Joh...@rcn.com> wrote:
> Why do things take sooooooooooo long to get done in NYC? The
> Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
> is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
> rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
> Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this
fall.
> What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
When did the current state of inaction in NYC begin? Sometime in the
1970's, perhaps? Clearly, in previous decades, numerous subways and,
then, highways got constructed. So when did everything grind to a halt?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Paul Matus
Ralph Herman <rhe...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:7jltl6$7np$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com...
>
> Paul Matus <pma...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:cZs73.2392$09.51...@news.optonline.net...
> >
> > John Coviello <Joh...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > news:375DE5C9...@rcn.com...
> > > Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
> > > is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
> > > rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
> > > Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this
fall.
> > > What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
> >
but
> I
> > would add failures of planning, vision and management.
> >
> > If the City and regional agencies could concentrate on any single
project
> > hrough to completion, things might move a little faster.
> >
> >
> >
> Lawsuits... just about all public works projects get stalled in the
courts.
> One group (or one individual) can stop just about any project as long as
> he/she has a judge on their side.
To paraphrase Orwell: "All NIMBY lawsuits are equal, but some NIMBY lawsuits
are more equal than others."
When State DOT, for example, really wants something, they seem to fight
harder and more effectively.
Local people had good attorneys, clout and money to sue NYS DOT over the
widening of Northern Parkway between the Meadowbrook and Wantagh Parkways
without an environmental impact statement. This was a very intrusive
widening tearing out large swaths of trees and radically widening the
existing roadway.
This was also through and adjacent to very well-to-do areas, including one
of the wealthiest on Long Island (Old Westbury), so we're not talking about
ramming a highway project through a poor, powerless area, There was even a
landmark issue, since the original Parkway bridges were landmarked remnents
of the early Moses era.
The widening was only delayed by the lawsuit, it went through quite as
planned. The "landmark" bridges--some stones were used in the new bridges,
which look nothing like the originals.
Joel Rubin
wrote:
>Why do things take sooooooooooo long to get done in NYC? The
>Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
>is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
>rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
>Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this fall.
>What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
Bob Moses is dead. He got things done whether they should have been
done or not.
Paul Matus
Joel Rubin <jmr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:375f8f12...@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com...
One of the reasons that it's so hard to get things done now is that Bob
Moses (and the style of individual-rights-be-damned public policy he
represented) was once alive.
People no longer trust a public official who smiles and says, "we need the
project and it will have minimal impact on your lives."
They know better. A prime reason for NIMBYs.
Joe Versaggi
>
> On Tue, 08 Jun 1999 23:55:53 -0400, John Coviello <Joh...@rcn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Why do things take sooooooooooo long to get done in NYC? The
> >Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
> >is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
> >rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
> >Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this fall.
> >What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
>
> Bob Moses is dead. He got things done whether they should have been
> done or not.
Moses only got for-car things done.
Blame Guiliani for stalling 42nd Street light rail to death. 15 light
rail cars would have replaced 40 buses. His emphasis is to move
vehicles, preferably cars, not people, hence pedestrian fences, and
crosstown traffic speeds now at record lows (5.3 MPH)
Walter Kaufman
things" to do. But what about his non transportation projects. Houses,
Parks, Dams, etc. He wasn't known as "the man who gets things done" for
nothing.
Joe Versaggi
> st. trolley/light rail has been stalled for almost 30 years
> __________________________________________________________________________
They aren't blameless. But the final death-knell for all time is being
done by this mayor and he has no excuses.
Joe Versaggi
He destroyed a viable residential/commercial neighborhood in the Bronx
because he wouldn't run the X-Bx Xway a mile to the north when he could
have, so why give him credit for building a slum of high-rises for
displaced residents?
Of course, the Northern State was put on a dangerous reverse curve thru
Carle place to avoid a golf course.
They became car-things to do because he would deliberately scuttle any
sharing of rights-of-way. Van Wyck could have been built with a median
like most of his other roads to accomodate an IND branch, but he fired
his engineer who thought of it and the rest is history.
He was known as a man who got things done because he was a dictator, and
becuase society in those days worshipped such creatures.
Joe Versaggi
>
> On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 19:24:22 -0400, Joe Versaggi
> <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Walter Kaufman wrote:
> >>
> >> Bob Moses only got "car things" done because he was only given "car
> >> things" to do. But what about his non transportation projects. Houses,
> >> Parks, Dams, etc. He wasn't known as "the man who gets things done" for
> >> nothing.
> >
> >He destroyed a viable residential/commercial neighborhood in the Bronx
> >because he wouldn't run the X-Bx Xway a mile to the north when he could
> >have, so why give him credit for building a slum of high-rises for
> >displaced residents?
>
>
Nope. Moses called it a slum; he called every non-WASP area he wanted to
run a road through a slum. Caro's book says so, that's what I believe
too. Lower-middle working class is not a slum.
Ralph Herman
Peter Rosa <ULN...@prodigy.com> wrote in message
news:7jn3s1$hvq$1...@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com...
> Joh...@monmouth.com (JohnDoe) wrote:
> >
> >On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 19:24:22 -0400, Joe Versaggi
> ><JOEM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Walter Kaufman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Bob Moses only got "car things" done because he was only given "car
> >>> things" to do. But what about his non transportation projects.
> Houses,
> >>> Parks, Dams, etc. He wasn't known as "the man who gets things done"
> for
> >>> nothing.
> >>
> >>He destroyed a viable residential/commercial neighborhood in the Bronx
> >>because he wouldn't run the X-Bx Xway a mile to the north when he
> could
> >>have, so why give him credit for building a slum of high-rises for
> >>displaced residents?
> >
> >nonsense, that area was a slum when he "destroyed" it
>
> doing excessive damage to neighborhoods in its path. Keep in mind that
> it's *narrow*. This kept down the amount of land needed and, in turn,
> the number of buildings lost.
> Blaiming the Cross Bronx and Moses for the destruction of the borough is
> a vast oversimplification. Neighborhood decline (and revivial) is a
> complex process that seldom if ever can be reduced to one or two causes.
>
> --
> Peter Rosa
> pros...@yahoo.com
>
The decline of the NYC public schools and the decline of the quality of the
housing (due to rent control) were the primary reasons for the economic
decline of "numerous" neighborhoods in NYC.... including sections of the
Bronx. Moses had nothing to do with that, folks.
Ralph
Chris Thompson
conspiracy-theory state of mind, in which ANYTHING proposed by
government (or corporations, for that matter) is suspect, even things
that are obviously of benefit to most if not all concerned. Examples
are too numerous to list; other have provided transit examples. I'll
throw in a one (sorry but its a pet peeve): vaccines, which were once
taken as being sacrosanct, since they benefitted not only individuals
but society as a whole (since they prevented epidemics) are now
suspect. This is directly traceable to the swine flu fiasco under
Gerald ("Drop dead NYC" I know the Daily News said that) Ford. Other
examples abound. Too many people watch _and believe_ the X-Files.
Chris
Charles Gallo
I'll tell you what _I_ think caused the problems.
1) When people got pissed at Rbt Moses, they sort of threw out the
baby with the bath water. We no long have a person who can ram
through tough projects
2)Look around at the construction companies out there. Back before
the 1970s, we had some VERY large construction companies, that could
put a crew of 100 men on a job for week. Of course, the reason these
companies could do this was they were mob controlled, and they knew
when they would rig bids. Now days, you get a job like the Queensboro
bridge, and they have 10-20 people working on it. They used to put
100s on jobs like that
Everyone complains about RMs roads, but I have a question for them.
Have you ever driven in NJ? Can you imagine a road system like NJs on
Long Island? Things like 1/9 being a major road?
Charlie
On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 15:38:21 GMT, an...@columbia.edu wrote:
>In article <375DE5C9...@rcn.com>,
> John Coviello <Joh...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> Why do things take sooooooooooo long to get done in NYC? The
>> Manhattan-JFK rail link should have been started years ago. New Jersey
>> is moving forward with transit projects like the Hudson County light
>> rail line. Even Amtrak got it's act together and electrified the NE
>> Corridor to Boston and is set to introduce new/faster service this
>fall.
>> What's up with NYC? It seems like nothing ever gets done there.
>
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 19:38:27 -0400, Joe Versaggi
> <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Nope. Moses called it a slum; he called every non-WASP area he wanted to
> >run a road through a slum. Caro's book says so, that's what I believe
> >too. Lower-middle working class is not a slum.
>
> were pre ww2 and were slums.
> Caro was far from objective, he wrote from a very opinionated
> perspective.
> I wish people would stop parroting this revisionist nonsense.
marcie-marc now claims to have lived in East Tremont in 1951 or so. That
makes him a hell of a lot older than any impression of his age I've yet
received from any of his postings.
"Pre ww2" buildings at that time would have been no more than 35 years
old (since anything earlier would have been "pre ww1"), rarely
candidates for "slum"hood.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
an...@columbia.edu
"Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> wrote:
> One of the reasons that it's so hard to get things done now is that
Bob
> Moses (and the style of individual-rights-be-damned public policy he
> represented) was once alive.
>
> People no longer trust a public official who smiles and says, "we need
the
> project and it will have minimal impact on your lives."
>
> They know better. A prime reason for NIMBYs.
Are there any "anti-NIMBYs" in New York, i.e. people who WANT better
transportation infrastructure in their neighborhoods. There are
communities in Boston (ok, they're poorer communities) that have been
BEGGING the MBTA to build rail transit to connect them to downtown. The
MBTA is not exactly leaping at the opportunity.
There are probably communites in parts of Queens and Brooklyn that would
like subway extensions. Trouble is, these projects would be mainly of
local benefit. They wouldn't really alleviate congestion anywhere else.
Are the buisnesses and residents of Second Ave. in favor of a subway
there? Or are they mainly concerned that that the construction would be
disruptive?
Peter T. Daniels
> Are there any "anti-NIMBYs" in New York, i.e. people who WANT better
> transportation infrastructure in their neighborhoods. There are
> communities in Boston (ok, they're poorer communities) that have been
> BEGGING the MBTA to build rail transit to connect them to downtown. The
> MBTA is not exactly leaping at the opportunity.
Compare the parts of DC Metro that still aren't built (Green Line
connection, serving Howard U, and southern extremity, for Anacostia).
Peter T. Daniels
> >> I lived there then, the buildings were dilapidated tenements. many
> >> were pre ww2 and were slums.
> >> Caro was far from objective, he wrote from a very opinionated
> >> perspective.
> >> I wish people would stop parroting this revisionist nonsense.
> >
> >marcie-marc now claims to have lived in East Tremont in 1951 or so. That
> >makes him a hell of a lot older than any impression of his age I've yet
> >received from any of his postings.
>
> still feminizing my name because you have to cover your own
> inadequacies. Your impressions as usual are wrong.
Don't you realize that by continuing to complain about it, you're simply
increasing the incentive to use it? The first time, it was mildly
amusing. I'd have had no reason ever to repeat it!
And I already explained once that the reference is not "feminization,"
but to a Calvin Klein underwear model, virtually the exact opposite.
> >"Pre ww2" buildings at that time would have been no more than 35 years
> >old (since anything earlier would have been "pre ww1"), rarely
> >candidates for "slum"hood.
>
> the buildings were classified as tenements and many were old law
> tenements. if you knew what you where talking about, a conversation
> would be possible with you.
"Old Law tenements" were built before the "New Law," which I could look
up but won't bother to; it was shortly before 1900, I think. Under no
stretch of the imagination could something as old as an Old Law tenement
be referred to as "pre ww2" by someone who wanted to be understood.
Peter T. Daniels
> >> >> I lived there then, the buildings were dilapidated tenements. many
> >> >> were pre ww2 and were slums.
> >> >> Caro was far from objective, he wrote from a very opinionated
> >> >> perspective.
> >> >> I wish people would stop parroting this revisionist nonsense.
> >> >
> >> >marcie-marc now claims to have lived in East Tremont in 1951 or so. That
> >> >makes him a hell of a lot older than any impression of his age I've yet
> >> >received from any of his postings.
> >>
> >> still feminizing my name because you have to cover your own
> >> inadequacies. Your impressions as usual are wrong.
> >
> >Don't you realize that by continuing to complain about it, you're simply
> >increasing the incentive to use it? The first time, it was mildly
> >amusing. I'd have had no reason ever to repeat it!
> >
> >And I already explained once that the reference is not "feminization,"
> >but to a Calvin Klein underwear model, virtually the exact opposite.
>
> A model might mean something to you and the boys in your 'hood but it
> means nothing to me. It just shows your shallowness
No, it shows your ignorance. Marky-Mark's picture was on every bus
shelter in NY a few years ago, and the explicitness of the advertising
campaign was nationally controversial.
> regarding your comments over buildings in the tremont area, they were
> dilapidated slums, the residents of neighborhoods were fleeing, all
> Moses did was speed their trips to the suburbs.
So you agree that you were wrong to refer to Old Law tenements (if
that's what they were) as "pre ww2."
And the above comment is wrong about East Tremont.
ArtSink1
>In article <ntw73.2409$09.53...@news.optonline.net>,
> "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> One of the reasons that it's so hard to get things done now is that
>Bob
>> Moses (and the style of individual-rights-be-damned public policy he
>> represented) was once alive.
>>
>> People no longer trust a public official who smiles and says, "we need
>the
>> project and it will have minimal impact on your lives."
>>
>> They know better. A prime reason for NIMBYs.
>
>transportation infrastructure in their neighborhoods. There are
>communities in Boston (ok, they're poorer communities) that have been
>BEGGING the MBTA to build rail transit to connect them to downtown. The
>MBTA is not exactly leaping at the opportunity.
>
>like subway extensions. Trouble is, these projects would be mainly of
>local benefit. They wouldn't really alleviate congestion anywhere else.
>
>Are the buisnesses and residents of Second Ave. in favor of a subway
>there? Or are they mainly concerned that that the construction would be
>disruptive?
Getting off the beating a dead Moses to death thread!
I can say that I'm a resident of the East Village - one half block east of
Second Av - and would love for the Second Av subway to be built. My
neighborhood is one of the least serviced areas in Manhattan, yet one of the
most densely populated, and that's an inequity I'd love to see addressed.
Gary Levinson
*note: remove <nospam2> for email
David Samuel Barr
>
> Are there any "anti-NIMBYs" in New York, i.e. people who WANT better
> transportation infrastructure in their neighborhoods. There are
> communities in Boston (ok, they're poorer communities) that have been
> BEGGING the MBTA to build rail transit to connect them to downtown.
> The MBTA is not exactly leaping at the opportunity.
>
> there? Or are they mainly concerned that that the construction would
> be disruptive?
Well, I've lived just off 2nd Ave for the last ten years, and I would
**LOVE** for the subway to be built. I'm sure whatever disruption there
might be during construction would be tolerable, and the benefits would
be significant.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:53:35 -0400, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> A model might mean something to you and the boys in your 'hood but it
> >> means nothing to me. It just shows your shallowness
> >
> >No, it shows your ignorance. Marky-Mark's picture was on every bus
> >shelter in NY a few years ago, and the explicitness of the advertising
> >campaign was nationally controversial.
>
> badge, only the simple minded adore media stars.
So you pontificate about NYC's buses and never use them? I'm not
surprised.
> so what is your source of news?
> inside edition, access hollywood or people magazine
NPR, Newsweek, and the New Yorker.
I've never seen any of what you name.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:00:53 -0400, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >JohnDoe wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:53:35 -0400, "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> A model might mean something to you and the boys in your 'hood but it
> >> >> means nothing to me. It just shows your shallowness
> >> >
> >> >No, it shows your ignorance. Marky-Mark's picture was on every bus
> >> >shelter in NY a few years ago, and the explicitness of the advertising
> >> >campaign was nationally controversial.
> >>
> >> Ignorance, if that is you version of ignorance, I proudly accept that
> >> badge, only the simple minded adore media stars.
> >
> >So you pontificate about NYC's buses and never use them? I'm not
> >surprised.
>
> 2. how do you know I never use them?
1. I recall something about buses in Brooklyn.
2. The Marky-Mark ads were unavoidable for at least one season, and I
think more, on every bus shelter. In Chicago, Calvin Klein also took
cards on the sides of the buses. You've never mentioned you were blind;
are you?
Gene
>On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:03:03 -0400, "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>1. I recall something about buses in Brooklyn.
>
>your recall must be faulty
He gave expert testimony on the differences between NYCT express bus
and private bus operations in the city. One of his suggestions was
that NYCT have a bus stop within a block of anywhere he wanted to go.
Another was that NYCT should turn the more lucrative routs over to
private transportation and only service the low revenue routes.
Gene
Dedicated to Christie Noel:
"Only the good die young" - Billy Joel
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Joh...@monmouth.com (JohnDoe) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:03:03 -0400, "Peter T. Daniels"
> ><gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>1. I recall something about buses in Brooklyn.
> >
> >your recall must be faulty
>
> He gave expert testimony on the differences between NYCT express bus
> and private bus operations in the city. One of his suggestions was
> that NYCT have a bus stop within a block of anywhere he wanted to go.
> Another was that NYCT should turn the more lucrative routs over to
> private transportation and only service the low revenue routes.
Yes, I certainly remember that thread!
Gene
>you boys have it wrong,
So suddenly it goes from you claiming to never posting on bus specific
topics to you actually remembering what you said? Call th Pope, it's
another miracle
>I said that profitable routes should be given
>to private operators and non profitable routes should be eliminated.
I think NYCT should keep profitable routes. Why would anyone do
otherwise? If it's profitable, why give it away? I take great pride
that al the streets in NYC have street lights at night, even street
signs on every corner and that I can catch a train or bus just about
anywhere.
Gene
>stay focused sonny, he said buses in brooklyn
Ok pops, stay with me while I try to stay focused,.....
Peter T. Daniels said
>So you pontificate about NYC's buses and never use them? I'm not
>surprised.
Wow, he DID say NYC's buses. Man, I mean pops, I'm good at this
focus stuff, huh?
OK, then pops (that's you) said, and I quote
>1. you've never seen me make any bus specific comments
>2. how do you know I never use them?
Ok, so you never made any bus specific comments you say.
then you said........
>>>I said that profitable routes should be given
>>>to private operators and non profitable routes should be eliminated.
Focus, focus, focus, stay focused. Ok, so did you or didn't you.
>because private operators can operate more efficiently than government
>can and because government should get out of the transit game.
Well, that does it for me, from your mouth to Gods ears.
maybe if Jersey wasn't so private when it comes to mass transit the
Devils could sell out a little more. hahahahah yeah, right.
JOHN MARA
JohnDoe <Joh...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:04:40 GMT, gen...@worldnet.att.net (Gene)
> wrote:
> >I think NYCT should keep profitable routes. Why would anyone do
> >otherwise? If it's profitable, why give it away? I take great pride
> >that al the streets in NYC have street lights at night, even street
> >signs on every corner and that I can catch a train or bus just about
> >anywhere.
>
> because private operators can operate more efficiently than government
> can and because government should get out of the transit game.
If private operators can operate more efficiently why did private transit
operators fail? Most transit in the US was privately operated at one time.
The government took over when private companies failed. Today there is
very little transit which is not operated directly by government agencies
or by government contractors.
John Mara
Joe Versaggi
> can and because government should get out of the transit game.
Another one of your idiotic generalizations from a car-lover.
Then government should get out of the deficit ridden freeway business
too.
Gene
>On 12 Jun 1999 16:19:37 GMT, "JOHN MARA" <JOHN...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>>If private operators can operate more efficiently why did private transit
>>operators fail? Most transit in the US was privately operated at one time.
>> The government took over when private companies failed. Today there is
>>very little transit which is not operated directly by government agencies
>>or by government contractors.
>
>many failed because of regulation of the fares they could charge.
OOOOooooHHHHHhhh, now I get it. Only NYCT has to deal with keeping
the fare down but if we let privates run it and charge what they want
then they will be profitable, cut routes and services and we will be
all the better. Why didn't you just say so?
Gene
>are you so simplistic in your thinking that you believe that the
>freeways are solely for cars??? if highways didn't exist, you couldn't
>exist. The same could never be said for wasteful transit systems
How did people exist before there were freeways?
JOHN PAZMINO
R > Subject: Re: Bridge tolls (was: Re: R to Staten Island)
R > Date: 9 Jun 1999 02:30:33 GMT
R > Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
R > >
R > >> In Bob Moses' book, the only unnecessary weight on the bridge
R > >> would be that of trains......
R > >
R > >more revisionist bullshit
R >
R > What the anti-Moses group fails to realize is that it would have been highly
R > impractical if not downright impossible to have run trains over the Verrazano
R > Narrows Bridge. It stems from the simple fact that trains can't negotiate
R > steep grades. If the bridge were built with grades low enough for trains, but
R > with sufficient ship clearance in the middle, the Brooklyn side (not so sure
R > about S.I.) would have required an extremely long elevated approach - I've
R > heard estimates of over one mile. That obviously would have increased both
R > costs and neighborhood disruption to unacceptable levels.
It would be not more than the approaches to any of the other
bridges already carrying rails. The length of an appraoch would be
more like one kilometer or so. Recall that a transit train is powered
under all of its cars, unlike a conventional locomotive-pulled train.
The grade can be much steepr being that each car pulls only its own
wright.
Allow a grade of 4% -- awfully steep but passable by transit
trains for a short distance -- and a maximum elevation over the river
of 45m (for structure under the rails) and the rails in a station 6m
under ground at either end on land. We need a ramp of some 1,300m.
This is not at all excessive.
I don't know the topography around Fort Hamilton well but there is
some drop in land, almost a full cliff, near the bridge. It may be
that the 95th St station is several meters above sea level already by
this topography. Thus an even shorter ramp would be needed.
---
þ RoseReader 2.52á P005004
JOHN PAZMINO
A > Subject: Re: Airtrain Wins Pivotal Approval
A > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 08:46:25 GMT
A > Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
A >
A > Does the law allow PFCs to be spent on employee parking lots, employee
A > lounges, employee cafeterias, etc.? Those projects do not "directly
A > benefit passengers" either, but they help the airport function properly.
What is the deal with the rfional shopping center the POA wants to
build in the airport? It's part of one of the terminal buildings still
abuilding and is supposed to attract nonairport customers from south
Queens.
JOHN PAZMINO
PR> Subject: Re: Coney Island to ENY without WB
PR> Date: 8 Jun 1999 01:59:15 GMT
PR> Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY
PR> >
PR> >>ERA NY Division Bulletin for June 99 reports that the first transfer
PR> from
PR> >>Coney Shops to ENY Shops took place May 6.
PR>
PR> >Hmm--there isn't any track connection between the "E" and the "J/Z"
PR> >tracks near Archer Avenue, Jamaica, is there?
PR>
PR> There's no such connection. One *would* make a lot of sense, that's for
PR> sure.
Better sense would be for the Archer Av line to be a single level for
both IND and BMT trains. The two merge by a flying junction in the
tunnel west of Sutphin Bc station.
---
ž RoseReader 2.52į P005004
JOHN PAZMINO
W > Subject: Re: double deck the Lex
W > Organization: Fordham University
W > Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 04:13:54 GMT
W > s
W > > SO> platforms at the 59th St?
W > >
W > > That (on the IND COlumbus Circle station) was part of the original
W > > construction. It was not added later. However!, there is a dormant
W > > plan to rebuild the IRT COlymbus Circle station into an express
W > > station by weaving out the downtown local and express tracks. The gap
W > > opened up would fit a new cneter express platofrm. COmms to it would
W > > be by existing and new underpasses. This plan emerged in the mid 1950s
W > > when the Coliseum was abuilding. To accommodate the expansion the
W > > Coliseum left a corridor along the downtwon side of the iRT station.
W >
W > I believe the question was about adding the express stop at 59th on
W > the Lexington line. As I recall, expresses didn't run at night during
W > the consruction of the lower-level platforms.
If so (I remember it under construction in the late 1950s) there was
at that station enough clerance to do so in a relatively less
disruptive manner.
JOHN PAZMINO
= > Subject: Re: double deck the Lex
= > Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:33:15 -0400 (EDT)
= > Organization: WebTV Subscriber
= >
= > >How about buying subway cars with no
= > >seats to run at rush hour? That would
= > >increase capacity.
= >
= > Then those cars would be empty as thousands of riders at every station
= > along Lexington Ave. lets those trains pass by, waiting for a train with
= > seats. NY subway passengers have to have seats and usually go out of
= > their way to get them. Tell that to those people who get on the #5 at
= > Church Ave. in the morning, going towards Flatbush Ave., just to get a
= > seat.
And that #5 (or @2) slides into Flatbush Av already filled! There is
often only standing room left!
JOHN PAZMINO
PM> Subject: Re: double deck the Lex
PM> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 12:51:46 GMT
PM> Organization: Optimum Online
PM> >
PM> > You'll need some seats for the ADA folk. But, it would make sense for
PM> > shuttles, like the 42nd St shuttle. In London, at least in the 1970s,
PM> > the cars on the Circle Line < which was a loop thru the inner part of
PM> > London and which connects to probably every other line, has only a few
PM> > seats. The thinking was the this line being a loop would serve riders
PM> > on short trips, like tranlating from one connecting line to an other.
PM> > If the rider stayed on for a long trip, he'd simply circle around back
PM> > to his starting station.
PM>
PM> I haven't ridden the Circle Line (in fact I haven't been in London in 15
PM> years) but IIRC, the Circle Line isn't really a line so much as a service.
PM> It shares almost all its trackage with other lines, so you would expect it
PM> would only be used for connections and short hops.
PM>
PM> So how well does the limited seating work?
Whrn I was in Londin in the mid 1960s it seemed to work well. I
never heard any ongoing complaints. People got on, stood against the
wall or door, and got off after a couple stops.
But the funniest feature of the London subway on certain models
of coach. We in New York are called 'straphangers' from the original
material the straps wre made of, leather or heavy cloth straps. Now
they are made of steel pivoted from the ceiling.
On this particular kind of London car there were, uh, wibbly balls
dangling from the ceiling! They were made of some tough but flexible
rubber and the riders clamped their hand around the ball part. So I
guess you can figure out what London subway riders are called!
JOHN PAZMINO
T > Subject: Re: YOURE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS! 4676
T > Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 03:57:55 GMT
T > Organization: Tehawk World Order
T >
T > >cdo...@sssdfdf.org wrote:
T > >>
T > >> igiedokcgbzjdjbilexjnocylpozhnrelkhukcyyrgrocvoxcucpoteltjcrlpzojjecdlfburwj
T > mgoinjr
T > >
T > >This is the 2d or 3d bit of porno-spam that's appeared on nyc.transit in
T > >the last few days (and presumably in the oddly chosen other two ng's
T > >listed). Does that mean a chink has been found in the previously
T > >spam-impermeable armor? Should someone be notified?
T >
T > I think this bit of spam has popped up on every news group, or every
T > one I've checked.
Maybe it's the name of the chap's local train station in Wales?
---
ţ RoseReader 2.52á P005004
JOHN PAZMINO
J > Subject: Re: double deck the Lex
J > Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 10:59:58 -0400
J > Organization: It's not lost, I just don't remember where I put it
J > >
J > > > Actually there is a subway I rode that does use double deck cars.
J > > > In Sydney, Australia, the subway (actually it's underground only in
J > > > the central part of town) has only entries at the ends at a high
J > > > platofrm level. From the entry landing you go up or down a few steps
J > > > to the upper or lower level. The lower level is depressed below
J > > > platform height so the windows are at your waist.
J > >
J > > Sydney's CityRail system is a clever hybrid of subway and suburban rail.
J > > In the city, the trains run through subway tunnels that serve about 10
J > > stations. Trains serve each station about every 5 minutes. Then,
J > > trains branch out on to an extensive suburban outdoor rail system.
J > > Along each branch, headways are around 30 min., more like a commuter
J > > railroad.
J > >
J > > The design of the cars reflects this hybrid character. The left and
J > > right ends of each car open on to the platform. These portions of the
J > > cars have seats arranged bench-style against the wall, and have poles in
J > > the middle of the wide aisle, for standing riders. The middle of the
J > > car is double-decker and has 3+2 seats in rows, with rather narrow
J > > aisles, much like on a typical commuter railroad car.
J > >
J > > It's a pretty clever setup, all-in-all.
J >
J > But are they air-conditioned?
I honestly don;t know. I was there in the southern fall for chasing
Halley's Comet.
JOHN PAZMINO
B > Subject: Re: Longest url with a Train Stop
B > Date: 08 Jun 1999 19:56:34 PDT
B > Organization: Concentric Internet Services
B >
B > The next stop on this train will be:
B >
B > LLANFAIRPWLLGWYNGYLLGOGERYCHWYRNDROBWLLLLANTY SILIOGOGOGOCH
Without explaining how or why, I and about 35 others from the NY
area where stuck on an overnight train from Tbilisi to Yerevan. I SAID
don;t ask. This stupid train, a war trophy from Germany in WWII, was
siply never maintained since its capture! At any rate it rumbled its
way thru the night stopping at every little town along the way every
half hour or so. Tis included Stipak (?) which only a couple months
earlier was leveled by earthquake.
Altho this wa a fancy train by SOviet statndards -- you slept on
a 'real' Pullman coach -- the ride was, uh, torture. We got punch
drunk fro lack of sleep and started getting into mischief. This was
not the thing to do in the old Soviet Union, but so what?
We went to the conductor's station and bugged him. When he leaned
out and called out the station with its Russian name. One of us, in
turn, leaned out the next doorway and yelled out one of the station
names on the NYC rails. So the platform passengers heard, say,
'Novoslovinskoye, Massapequa Park'. Then 'Ostroyvladimirokii, Speonk'.
The conductor didn't know what was going on and got all flustered. He
said something to the car steward, who was a flubadub from the word
go. He yelled at us, but in all Russian, which we did not understand.
And at the next station, 'Ivanovichogradskaya, White Plains'.
This silliness went on until the following morning when we arrived
in Yerevan for breakfast in the train station. But THAT'S not transit,
so ...
JOHN PAZMINO
JA> Subject: Re: remote check in
JA> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:01:26 -0400
JA> Organization: None at all!
JA> > Am I out of date here? Wasn't remote check in banned on account of the
JA> > prospect of hidng bombs in the baggage? And would not this
JA> > dissociate the luggage from the passenger, making it possible to
JA> > send a bomb on separate planes or without a correspinding
JA> > passenger? Didn't the curbside checkin at the NY airports cease
JA> > because of this hazard?
JA>
JA> There still is curbside check-in. Also, what difference does it make where
JA> you check your bags, do union regulations prevent people with X-Ray vision
JA> from working outside the airport. Or do federal regs prevent the operation
JA> of X-Ray machines outside of the airport? As for "[dissociating]," You do
JA> that at the terminal too, they manage to have the bags on the right plane
JA> (most of the time), and you don't actually bring your bags to the plane
JA> itself.
Things must have eased up quite a lot. In the past couple years when I
traveled by air the checkin agents asked a list of questions about
your luggage and they made sure tht each piece was associated with a
rider on that flight. The intent was to lessen the opportunity of
sending some bomb in an unaccountable luggage.
JOHN PAZMINO
A > Subject: Re: double deck the lex line
A > Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:32:31 GMT
A > Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
A > > We could do it with existing tunnels if we could just make people
A > > shorter.
A >
A > We wouldn't have any capacity problems at all, if we could make people
A > THINNER!!!
Reminds me of the silly joke we herd in junior high school. How can
you tell which of the girls in school avoided the subway?
JOHN PAZMINO
PM> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 14:56:42 GMT
PM> Organization: Optimum Online
PM>
PM> http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/misc/html/1998/nycfacts.html, the assertion is
PM> made that:
PM>
PM> "New York City was 360 square miles in 1898 - it is now 321.8 square
PM> miles"
PM>
PM> Even the City bureaucracy would have a hard time *losing* 40 square miles
PM> (misplacing it ... maybe, "loaning" it to big contributors ... probably).
PM>
PM> No further explanation is offered. My guess is that the eastern part of
PM> Queens County, now Nassau County, accounts for those 40 square miles. But I
PM> never knew that this land was _ever_ officially part of NYC. Anyone know
PM> more?
Mu guess is that since 1898 the border between New York and New
Jersey was sihifted to the middle of the rivers. It used to be on the
farther side along the bulkhead line on the New Jerey side. Assuming a
30Km slice of about 1Km width all along the border, tht's 30Km2 right
there. So you have 'only' 32 or so sq mi left to account for.
And we did in 1998 lose about 1/2 Km2 of Ellis Island to New
Jersey.
Paul Matus
JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote in message
news:9082430.0533...@relaynet.org...
The line was originally to go further northeast and/or southeast, so I
imagine they figured they could use the capacity of the two decks.
However, it seems any situation where the TA has to switch trains or merge
routes is considered too challenging these days. The TA would be happiest
operating the Disneyland Monorail.
Phil Kane
> However, it seems any situation where the TA has to switch trains or merge
> routes is considered too challenging these days. The TA would be happiest
> operating the Disneyland Monorail.
Or the Toonerville Trolley?? (What my dear departed father
used to call the Church Avenue line.)
==> Watch the Doors <==
Phil Kane
Hank Eisenstein
-Hank
--
http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon Amateur Photographer
ni...@quuxuum.org Fire-Emergency Services
Hank Eisenstein Transit-NY Metro
Staten Island, NY AOL IM: Hank21k ICQ UIN# 1579309
Let's Go Mets!!
Phil Kane <philkane [at] commlawcenter [dot] com> wrote in message
news:cuvyxnarpbzzynjpragr...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
Hank Eisenstein
Governor's Island, which was leased to the Feds by the city.
-Hank
--
http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon Amateur Photographer
ni...@quuxuum.org Fire-Emergency Services
Hank Eisenstein Transit-NY Metro
Staten Island, NY AOL IM: Hank21k ICQ UIN# 1579309
Let's Go Mets!!
JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote in message
news:9082430.0533...@relaynet.org...
an...@columbia.edu
arts...@aol.comnospam2 (ArtSink1) wrote:
> I can say that I'm a resident of the East Village - one half block
east of
> Second Av - and would love for the Second Av subway to be built. My
> neighborhood is one of the least serviced areas in Manhattan, yet one
of the
> most densely populated, and that's an inequity I'd love to see
addressed.
I love that neighborhood for all the restaurants, and I agree -- it is
hard to get to!
Take the L to 3rd Av. and walk South? The F to Second Ave. and walk
North? The N/R to 8th St. and walk East? No option is all that close.
(And of course Alphabet City is even further away!)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
an...@columbia.edu
john.p...@relaynet.org (JOHN PAZMINO) wrote:
[r.e. subways in Sydney]
> J > But are they air-conditioned?
>
> I honestly don;t know. I was there in the southern fall for chasing
> Halley's Comet.
They must have been air conditioned -- it was quite hot when I was
there, and the trains were fine. I'll check in some of the brochures I
picked up (to add to my endless piles of transit-related brochures) and
see what the official line is.
Gene
>Farms were closer to cities and many people produced their own food.
>without trucking either the food supply will dry up or prices would
>skyrocket
Or things would have stayed the same and you'd be standing on a tree
stump, instead of on you computer, complaining about all the horse
dung on the streets.
Seth M. Lewin
- though 4th Avenue is somewhat upgrade from sea level, being about halfway
up the "ridge" that the neighborhood is named after - since any line that
might have operated over the bridge would of necessity have connected to the
existing system further along, probably at 59th street after merging with
the N. It would certainly not have been impossible to have had the trains
follow a less steeply graded path (on a structure in the center of the
expressway) until they were able to be brought underground. Maybe not a
practical approach NOW, but certainly not out of the question when the
bridge was designed. (Consider the grade up to the Smith-9th station on the
G/F) The level of the plaza on the SI side is higher up, so there would have
been less of an issue with grades, though where the line would've gone once
it reached SI is a matter for speculation; ? run to Tottenville with
shuttles to St. George, or what?
Clinical Review Systems
Needham MA
*Powered by Macintosh*
----------
In article <9082430.0533...@relaynet.org>,
john.p...@relaynet.org (JOHN PAZMINO) wrote:
> It would be not more than the approaches to any of the other
>bridges already carrying rails. The length of an appraoch would be
>more like one kilometer or so. Recall that a transit train is powered
>under all of its cars, unlike a conventional locomotive-pulled train.
>The grade can be much steepr being that each car pulls only its own
>wright.
> Allow a grade of 4% -- awfully steep but passable by transit
>trains for a short distance -- and a maximum elevation over the river
>of 45m (for structure under the rails) and the rails in a station 6m
>under ground at either end on land. We need a ramp of some 1,300m.
>This is not at all excessive.
> I don't know the topography around Fort Hamilton well but there is
>some drop in land, almost a full cliff, near the bridge. It may be
>that the 95th St station is several meters above sea level already by
>this topography. Thus an even shorter ramp would be needed.
>
JOHN PAZMINO
JD> From: "Joseph D. Korman" <joe...@earthlink.net>
JD> Organization: The JoeKorNer
JD> To: JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org>
JD> Subject: Re: Airtrain Wins Pivotal
JD>
JD> What's the POA?
JD> > A > Does the law allow PFCs to be spent on employee parking lots, employee
JD> > A > lounges, employee cafeterias, etc.? Those projects do not "directly
JD> > A > benefit passengers" either, but they help the airport function properly.
JD> > > What is the deal with the rfional shopping center the POA wants to
JD> > build in the airport? It's part of one of the terminal buildings still
JD> > abuilding and is supposed to attract nonairport customers from south
JD> > Queens.
Port of Authority. That's just a localism; there really is no 'of' in
there.
Paul Matus
There was. Until a couple of decades ago (until NJ got cranky) it was "Port
of New York Authority," more often acronymned PONY or PoNY, that POA, and a
lot of people called it the "Port of Authority" instead of simply "Port
Authority."
The odd name construction is from the fact that "Port of New York" meant all
the interoperated port facilities in both NY and NJ.
Bart Lidofsky
: Lawsuits... just about all public works projects get stalled in the courts.
: One group (or one individual) can stop just about any project as long as
: he/she has a judge on their side.
Or even if they don't. I recall when Columbia University tried to
get a small nuclear reactor going (this was one that put out so little
radition that you wouldn't be able to detect it in the room next to the
reactor; the reactor core needed to be surrounded by water for the chain
reaction to work and the water was in an open pool, which meant that the
core could not get to more than 212 degrees without boiling away the
water, thereby stopping the reaction). Some of the _more_ reasonable
protests that kept it from going included:
1) If there was an earthquake, the radioactive material could get into the
sewage, which could get into the water supply (true, but it ignored the
fact that there had not been an earthquake there for over a billion years,
and that the danger of sewage in the water supply dwarfed the danger of
the nuclear material in it).
2) If someone set off a nuclear device inside the reactor, the radiocative
material would add to the amount of radiation released (also true, but it
ignored the fact that the shielding would make the total blast somewhat
LESS deadly, even with the radioactive material).
3) If a truck carrying the waste material from the reactor was bombed, New
York would see 20,000 extra cases of cancer (this information was based on
taking figures that had been multiplied by 10 as a safety standard, and
then arbitrarily raising them without any scientific justification. Among
other things, it assumed a population of 16 BILLION people (3-4 times the
entire world population) living within a 25 mile radius of Columbia
University, and the University not waiting 24 hours before shipping the
waste to allow the most dangerous part to decay away. If real figures were
used, the incidence of cancer went down to 1/2 of one extra case over a 30
year period).
Bart Lidofsky
Bart Lidofsky
: When did the current state of inaction in NYC begin? Sometime in the
: 1970's, perhaps? Clearly, in previous decades, numerous subways and,
: then, highways got constructed. So when did everything grind to a halt?
When the unions took over.
Actually, with the partial depowering of the unions, you see a lot
of projects earlier than planned.
Bart Lidofsky
Bart Lidofsky
: you boys have it wrong, I said that profitable routes should be given
: to private operators and non profitable routes should be eliminated.
: This holds true anywhere, not just in Brooklyn. I am against waste and
: operating huge buses for just a few people is a waste and any bus line
: that cannot support itself should be eliminated and if a bus line can
: be operated profitably government should cede it's franchise to
: private operators. It is done in NJ and it works.
There are issues other than profitability involved. There is teh
issue that there are far too many cars in Manhattan, and a major housing
crunch there. Eliminating public transportation in the outer boroughs will
encourage use of cars and people to move into Manhattan. It is a case
where you have to look at the whole picture, not just one piece.
Bart Lidofsky
Bart Lidofsky
: How did people exist before there were freeways?
By frequently dying of starvation during famines when there were
plenty of crops elsewhere in the world; just lack of transportation to
bring it to them.
Bart Lidofsky
Jeremy M. Posner
(Bart Lidofsky) wrote:
> Ralph Herman (rhe...@primenet.com) wrote:
> : Lawsuits... just about all public works projects get stalled in the courts.
> : One group (or one individual) can stop just about any project as long as
> : he/she has a judge on their side.
>
> Or even if they don't. I recall when Columbia University tried to
> get a small nuclear reactor going (this was one that put out so little
> radition that you wouldn't be able to detect it in the room next to the
> reactor; the reactor core needed to be surrounded by water for the chain
> reaction to work and the water was in an open pool, which meant that the
> core could not get to more than 212 degrees without boiling away the
> water, thereby stopping the reaction). Some of the _more_ reasonable
> protests that kept it from going included:
>
> 1) If there was an earthquake, the radioactive material could get into the
> sewage, which could get into the water supply (true, but it ignored the
> fact that there had not been an earthquake there for over a billion years,
> and that the danger of sewage in the water supply dwarfed the danger of
> the nuclear material in it).
That's not quite true. I remember a small quake (IIRC, somewhere around a
5) in NYC a mere 15 years ago, which isn't very long ago at all in terms
of such things...
-JMP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeremy M. Posner | "The internet? Is that thing still around?" |
| jpo...@panix.com | -Homer Simpson |
| (212) 426-7967 | http://www.panix.com/~jposner/ |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Thompson
decades ago (and I remember one as a teenager about, oh let's just say
it was longer ago than that). Another inconvenient fact is that there
is a fault line less than 100 miles away- runs pretty close to Indian
Point, if I recall my geology (and I do). It is a deep, transverse
fault, that extends all the way to the mid-Atlantic ridge (that part
might be a little shaky:)
Chris
Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> 1) If there was an earthquake, the radioactive material could get into the
> sewage, which could get into the water supply (true, but it ignored the
> fact that there had not been an earthquake there for over a billion years,
> and that the danger of sewage in the water supply dwarfed the danger of
> the nuclear material in it).
>
> Bart Lidofsky
Ralph Herman
Chris Thompson <rockw...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3765BE...@erols.com...
> Someone already pointed out that there was a quake in NYC less than 2
> decades ago (and I remember one as a teenager about, oh let's just say
> it was longer ago than that). Another inconvenient fact is that there
> is a fault line less than 100 miles away- runs pretty close to Indian
> Point, if I recall my geology (and I do). It is a deep, transverse
> fault, that extends all the way to the mid-Atlantic ridge (that part
> might be a little shaky:)
>
> Chris
Fall of 1985 (on a Saturday at about 6AM), under Ardsley. IIRC was about a
4.0. Rattled our house in Long Beach, LI pretty good. A co-worker who
lived in Ardsley said his house shook so bad he thought it was a major
earthquake.
Ramapo Fault (the only 'active' fault line the NYC area, IIRC) runs pretty
much underneath Indian Point.
Ralph
JOHN PAZMINO
PM> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:02:21 GMT
PM> Organization: Optimum Online
PM> > JD>
PM> > JD> What's the POA?
PM> >
PM> > Port of Authority. That's just a localism; there really is no 'of' in
PM> > there.
PM>
PM> There was. Until a couple of decades ago (until NJ got cranky) it was "Port
PM> of New York Authority," more often acronymned PONY or PoNY, that POA, and a
PM> lot of people called it the "Port of Authority" instead of simply "Port
PM> Authority."
PM>
PM> The odd name construction is from the fact that "Port of New York" meant all
PM> the interoperated port facilities in both NY and NJ.
Well, so I can tell 'correctors' that there is a historical basis for
'Poer of Authority'.
JOHN PAZMINO
JM> Subject: Re: Why Can't NYC Get Things Done?
JM> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:37:51 -0400
JM> Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
JM> >
JM> > Or even if they don't. I recall when Columbia University tried to
JM> > get a small nuclear reactor going (this was one that put out so little
JM> > radition that you wouldn't be able to detect it in the room next to the
JM> > reactor; the reactor core needed to be surrounded by water for the chain
JM> > reaction to work and the water was in an open pool, which meant that the
JM> > core could not get to more than 212 degrees without boiling away the
JM> > water, thereby stopping the reaction). Some of the _more_ reasonable
JM> > protests that kept it from going included:
The reactor was a tiny but critical reactor that needed the full AEC
licence to operate. Altho the project was killed off the reactor,
unused, sits inside Morningside Park.
JM> > 1) If there was an earthquake, the radioactive material could get into the
JM> > sewage, which could get into the water supply (true, but it ignored the
JM> > fact that there had not been an earthquake there for over a billion years,
JM> > and that the danger of sewage in the water supply dwarfed the danger of
JM> > the nuclear material in it).
JM>
JM> That's not quite true. I remember a small quake (IIRC, somewhere around a
JM> 5) in NYC a mere 15 years ago, which isn't very long ago at all in terms
JM> of such things...
One of the elements of a licence application for nuclear plants is a
detailed history of earthquakes. New York City had several doozies
since colonial days! And we got several in the last couple decades
earthquakes centered remotely from us. One was in or near Quebec City
but we felt it here.
Paul Matus
earthquakes, because they manage to leak radiocative material into the
ground water without 'em.
They have a very laid back attitude to silly stuff like nuclear and toxic
waste there. If Old Mother Hubbard went to her Brookhaven Cupboard to get
her poor (five-legged, three-eyed?) dog a bone, she'd have to move the Mason
jars of nuclear waste first.
Chris Thompson <rockw...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3765BE...@erols.com...
> Someone already pointed out that there was a quake in NYC less than 2
> decades ago (and I remember one as a teenager about, oh let's just say
> it was longer ago than that). Another inconvenient fact is that there
> is a fault line less than 100 miles away- runs pretty close to Indian
> Point, if I recall my geology (and I do). It is a deep, transverse
> fault, that extends all the way to the mid-Atlantic ridge (that part
> might be a little shaky:)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> > 1) If there was an earthquake, the radioactive material could get into
the
> > sewage, which could get into the water supply (true, but it ignored the
> > fact that there had not been an earthquake there for over a billion
years,
> > and that the danger of sewage in the water supply dwarfed the danger of
> > the nuclear material in it).
> >
> > Bart Lidofsky
JOHN MARA
JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote
> The reactor was a tiny but critical reactor that needed the full AEC
> licence to operate. Altho the project was killed off the reactor,
> unused, sits inside Morningside Park.
Actually it is in the Engineering Terrace at 120th Street and Amsterdam
Avenue. The building proposed for Morningside Park was a gym, which was
also a public relations disaster for Columbia.
John Mara
Joseph D. Korman
are a mere shadow of that PFA plan. If I remember the details,
the whole plan called for the TA taking over the Atlantic Branch
and the LIRR third tracking the Montauk Branch.
There was also to be a 'bypass' express track from 63rd St to
71st St built on the LIRR ROW, again not shared track with the
LIRR.
Paul Matus wrote:
>
> Yes, the Atlantic Branch.
>
> I remember the curve for the connection being built to hook up to the
> Branch. It would seem all that would be necessary to complete it would be
> building the ramps, resignaling the line and building controls at the
> stations.
>
> However, I think this is a dead letter even if there were the $$$. The FRA
> won't permit mixed subway-RR operation any more, and the Montauk Branch
> alone couldn't handle all the Babylon-Far Rock-Long Beach traffic in the
> rush.
>
> A solution might be to have the TA operate the Far Rock (Wow! We could loop
> with the Jamaica Bay trestle again!!) but by law, the TA can't operate
> outside the City Limits.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joseph D. Korman <joe...@earthlink.net>
> Newsgroups: nyc.transit
> To: Paul Matus <pma...@msn.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 7:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Coney Island to ENY
>
> > If you look at this map from the 'Program for Action' (1968),
> > both levels would have been extended, one along the LIRR mainline
> > to Hollis and the other along the Atlantic (?) Branch to
> > Springfield Gardens.
> >
> > http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/mtapfabq.gif
> >
> >
> > Paul Matus wrote:
> > >
> > > JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote in message
> > > news:9082430.0533...@relaynet.org...
> > > > PR> From: ULN...@prodigy.com (Peter Rosa)
> > > > PR> Subject: Re: Coney Island to ENY without WB
> > > > PR> Date: 8 Jun 1999 01:59:15 GMT
> > > > PR> Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY
> > > > PR> >
> > > > PR> >>ERA NY Division Bulletin for June 99 reports that the first
> transfer
> > > > PR> from
> > > > PR> >>Coney Shops to ENY Shops took place May 6.
> > > > PR>
> > > > PR> >Hmm--there isn't any track connection between the "E" and the
> "J/Z"
> > > > PR> >tracks near Archer Avenue, Jamaica, is there?
> > > > PR>
> > > > PR> There's no such connection. One *would* make a lot of sense,
> that's
> > > for
> > > > PR> sure.
> > > >
> > > > Better sense would be for the Archer Av line to be a single level for
> > > > both IND and BMT trains. The two merge by a flying junction in the
> > > > tunnel west of Sutphin Bc station.
> > >
> > > The line was originally to go further northeast and/or southeast, so I
> > > imagine they figured they could use the capacity of the two decks.
> > >
> > > However, it seems any situation where the TA has to switch trains or
> merge
> > > routes is considered too challenging these days. The TA would be
> happiest
> > > operating the Disneyland Monorail.
> >
> > --
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > | Joseph D. Korman - joe...@earthlink.net |
> > | Come to The JoeKorNer at WWW site |
> > | http://come.to/the-joekorner |
> > |-------------------------------------------------|
> > | ICQ user # 2618720 - http://www.icq.com/ |
> > |-------------------------------------------------|
> > |Follow the YELLOW Brick Road to the Land of OZ |
> > | http://www.buffnet.net/~paulk/oz.htm |
> > |-------------------------------------------------|
> > | The light at the end of the tunnel ... |
> > | may be a train going the other way! |
> > | Bad Trek is better than No Trek! |
> > | Don't take any wooden Subway tokens! |
> > | Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work! |
> > -------------------------------------------------
> >
--
-------------------------------------------------
| Joseph D. Korman - joe...@earthlink.net |
| Come to The JoeKorNer at WWW site |
| http://come.to/the-joekorner |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| ICQ user # 2618720 - http://www.icq.com/ |
|-------------------------------------------------|
|Follow the YELLOW Brick Road to the Land of OZ |
| http://www.buffnet.net/~paulk/oz.htm |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| The light at the end of the tunnel ... |
| may be a train going the other way! |
| Bad Trek is better than No Trek! |
| Don't take any wooden Subway tokens! |
| Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work! |
-------------------------------------------------
an...@columbia.edu
"JOHN MARA" <JOHN...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Avenue. The building proposed for Morningside Park was a gym, which
was
> also a public relations disaster for Columbia.
From what I've heard, one of the terms used at the time was "Gym Crow."
:)
Jim Douglass
got it done in three months. What was the city's problem?
Bart Lidofsky
: In article <5Ba93.11794$G01.2...@news3.giganews.com>, ba...@escape.com
: > 1) If there was an earthquake, the radioactive material could get into the
: > sewage, which could get into the water supply (true, but it ignored the
: > fact that there had not been an earthquake there for over a billion years,
: > and that the danger of sewage in the water supply dwarfed the danger of
: > the nuclear material in it).
: That's not quite true. I remember a small quake (IIRC, somewhere around a
: 5) in NYC a mere 15 years ago, which isn't very long ago at all in terms
: of such things...
New York City is a pretty big place. The quake did not touch the
place where the reactor was. In addition, I believe that the quake was in
New Jersey, and could only be felt in some parts of New York (it felt like
a truck going down the street).
Bart Lidofsky
Bart Lidofsky
: > Avenue. The building proposed for Morningside Park was a gym, which
: was
: > also a public relations disaster for Columbia.
:
: From what I've heard, one of the terms used at the time was "Gym Crow."
: :)
Here is the awful truth:
Morningside Park was (and continues to be) used almost exclusively
by criminals; non-criminals who dare enter take their lives into their
hands. There are sections of Morningside Park where the vertical incline
is so great that, even if law-abiding people did use it, they would not
have access to these sections. On one such section, Columbia offered to
build a two-story gym. The upper story would be shared by Columbia and the
community (Columbia getting priority), the lower story would be reserved
for the community (the community getting exclusive use). The architects
made the main entrance point towards Columbia. That meant that,
technically speaking, the entrance to the community's section was (gasp!)
the back door. This was the trigger to the 1968 riots at Columbia. The
results:
1) The gym was built on Columbia property; the members of the
community got no access whatsoever.
2) The section of Morningside park is of no use to the community.
A great victory for the community, don't you think?
Bart Lidofsky
Paul Matus
Bart Lidofsky <ba...@escape.com> wrote in message
news:BGca3.14539$_m4.2...@news2.giganews.com...
I remember that quake. I think it was centered north of the City. Anyway, we
felt it in Babylon, about 40 miles east of Manhattan.
It was much worse than a truck going by. There was a rumbling like an LIRR
train thundering by at 80 mph with maybe a bit of a flat wheel on the R-O-W
less than two blocks away, complete with rattling objects. What was
different was that the sound and virbation of a train is directional--the
earthquake _surrounded_ you. Very creepy. I thought "this is an earthquake,
and I hope it stops soon." I can't explain why, since I never knowingly
experienced an earthquake--but the news confirmed my impression not long
after.
Paul Matus
You or I might think not, but I've run into this attitude before. It says
"we may not have gained anything, but we fought the good fight, so it was a
moral victory."
Anthony Paladino
Michael Hamm
> What is the meaning of this subject line? Has Hamlet's famous question been
> answered by this man?
Lol. JOHN PAZMINO's newsreader/server (I don't know which) abbreviates
Subject: lines for some reason I cannot fathom.
Michael Hamm
BA, Math, Aug. '00
msh...@nyu.edu
http://pages.nyu.edu/~msh210/
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
the middle of town, yet extensive rail links, and a massive
underground shopping concourse in the middle of town. Folks there want
solutions. Folks in NYC want ideological grand stands and are afraid
of solutions. Things don't get done in NYC because no one know how to
compromise. If they don't get their plan exactly, they're prepared to
wreck it for everyone else. They are so totally ideological about
everything. The reason for this is that most folks aren't in NYC to
stay. They are here to use and leave. They are users, not long-term
residents. Those who are long-term residents in Madhatpan are hiding
from their failures behind rent control and are afraid to go back to
the hometowns where they came from - they feel that all they have to
do is have a non-salalry commission position that let's them pretend
to be working in some glamorous industry - and a Madhatpan address -
is all it takes to keep the folks back in their hometowns fooled. So
they live in some ideological fantasy, like Pinky Rinky Dinky who told
us we have to accept all the filth and smut in exchange for the
supposed privilege of living here. Ten years ago I read only one in
seven people living in NYC was actually working in private industry -
that the rest are in grubmint or hospitals or schools, where they can
afford their silly ideological fantasies.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[DQ2K: Make the Murky Clown Frown!]
David
rebuild most of the infrastructure from scratch anyway, and where no one
has a BY so no NIMBYs.
It would be a lot easier, sure, just to bulldoze the City, plan it out and
do it all over. Almost as expensive as the 2nd Avenue Subway.
David Z
In article <7krm4c$2n...@enews4.newsguy.com>, vj...@smtp.dorsai.org (Vasos
R32R38
>the middle of town, yet extensive rail links, and a massive
>underground shopping concourse in the middle of town. Folks there want
>solutions. Folks in NYC want ideological grand stands and are afraid
>of solutions. Things don't get done in NYC because no one know how to
>compromise. If they don't get their plan exactly, they're prepared to
>wreck it for everyone else. They are so totally ideological about
>everything. The reason for this is that most folks aren't in NYC to
>stay. They are here to use and leave. They are users, not long-term
>residents. Those who are long-term residents in Madhatpan are hiding
>from their failures behind rent control and are afraid to go back to
>the hometowns where they came from - they feel that all they have to
>do is have a non-salalry commission position that let's them pretend
>to be working in some glamorous industry - and a Madhatpan address -
>is all it takes to keep the folks back in their hometowns fooled. So
>they live in some ideological fantasy, like Pinky Rinky Dinky who told
>us we have to accept all the filth and smut in exchange for the
>supposed privilege of living here. Ten years ago I read only one in
>seven people living in NYC was actually working in private industry -
>that the rest are in grubmint or hospitals or schools, where they can
>afford their silly ideological fantasies.
>
Second Avenue subway. Many of the potential subway riders on the Upper East
Side are young, semi-transient types who'll be living elsewhere in a few years
(the big shots along Fifth and Park avenues are more likely to be permanent,
but they consider themselves too upscale for the subway). Looking at it this
way, there is a certain logic in the community's failure to demand completion
of the line. If you're living in the neighborhood but expect to be elsewhere
in a few years, it's unlikely that you're going to welcome the enormous
disruption that construction would entail when you won't be riding the
completed line. Altrusim is just too much to expect.
On a separate point, that figure about private-sector employment probably is no
longer correct. Since the economic recovery began in the early 1990s, the
growth rates of private-sector employment generally have outpaced those in
government/health care/education. But NYC probably still has a higher
percentage of non-private-sector employment than most other cities.
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
R32...@aol.com
ULN...@prodigy.com
Chris Thompson
Chris
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
>
> Compare to Tokyo which has pedestrian overpasses, massive highways in
(big snip)
Cyrus Afzali
Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier) wrote:
>The reason for this is that most folks aren't in NYC to
>stay. They are here to use and leave. They are users, not long-term
>residents. Those who are long-term residents in Madhatpan are hiding
>from their failures behind rent control and are afraid to go back to
>the hometowns where they came from - they feel that all they have to
>do is have a non-salalry commission position that let's them pretend
>to be working in some glamorous industry - and a Madhatpan address -
>is all it takes to keep the folks back in their hometowns fooled.
I don't think that scenario is very accurate, actually. First of all,
very few people are in rent controlled units. Those basically stay
with the same people forever and these people often didn't immigrate
here from somewhere else in the United States.
The people who are here to use it and leave are your NYU types who
went to school on Daddy's dime and think they'll be able to set the
world on fire right after they get out of school. They end up getting
a low-paying job just because it's with a marquis company. Eventually,
they get sick of earning $28K a year in NYC and leave.
I saw this time and again at the major corporation I just left.
Granted, it was more prevalent in that industry than some others, but
I'm sure it happens everywhere.
The mistake a lot of people make is going for a job in NYC in the
beginning of their careers. They would be much better off going
somewhere cheaper, getting a few years experience and coming back when
their credentials would draw them twice as much.
ELVIS1999
wrote:
>The mistake a lot of people make is going for a job in NYC in the
>beginning of their careers. They would be much better off going
>somewhere cheaper, getting a few years experience and coming back when
>their credentials would draw them twice as much.
True words. I came here at the beginning of my career, and it was
*tough* living on 39k. Yes - anywhere else this amount would work
marvelously for a 25 year old, but in NYC.... The nice thing about
NYC is, there seem to be plenty of jobs available these days.
Jeff
Kevin Walsh
(ELVIS1999) wrote:
39K? At age 25? You're rich beyond my wildest dreams when I was 25...
--
Kevin Walsh
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
use and leave. They don't plan on staying. Folks come here to be
immature. Rent control lets a lot of out-of-towners continue the
sherade to their relatives that they are still achieving something
long after their careers have peetered out (many of them hold jobs
only because they are commission-only jobs).
Things used to not get done in NYC because everyone had their
ideologically favorite plan and refused to accept any compromise
whatsoever.
The folks who came here in the 1980s have a different outlook
and they may very well be changing things. I, for one, would like to
Thatcherise Madhatpan, by turning renters into owners. I'd like to see
some developers build one and two family houses in places like
alphabetland.