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Proposed NYC MTA Fare Increases!

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Jason R. DeCesare

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Aug 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/4/95
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The New York Times (8//4/95) reports that the chairman of the
MTA wants to raise fares on November 1. The article appears
on A-1, column 2 of The Times (at least the metro edition).
(If you want a copy of the article e-mail me.)

MTA Fare Proposals:
Subway and bus fare increased to $1.50
Metro-North (in NY only) and L.I.R.R. fares increased 9%
All student transit passes eliminates immediately
Bridge and tunnel toll increase
(increase of $.25 to $.50 depending on crossing)
$ 3 billion in spending cuts

These are subject to public hearings and approval by the
MTA board.

I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!

-Jason
--
_________
/ ___ \ Jason DeCesare | bp...@torfree.net
| O |o|(6)| Although many of the scenes in this film were taken on transit
| | | | property, the New York City Transit Authority is not responsible
| : |_| : | for plot, story and characters portrayed. The Authority did not
|---------| render technical advice and assistance.
I I -Disclaimer from "The Taking of Pelham One Two Three"

Yeechang Lee

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Aug 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/4/95
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Jason R. DeCesare <bp...@torfree.net> says:
|The New York Times (8//4/95) reports that the chairman of the MTA
|wants to raise fares on November 1. The article appears on A-1,
|column 2 of The Times (at least the metro edition). (If you want a
|copy of the article e-mail me.)

And they were talking so bravely last year about discount passes by
this summer . . .

Sigh.

Yeechang Lee | http://www.columbia.edu/~ylee/ | Nevada Las Vegas Mission'92-'94

Jerry B Altzman

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Aug 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/4/95
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In article <DCsEx9.J3...@torfree.net>,
Jason R. DeCesare <bp...@torfree.net> wrote:
[...re transit hikes...]

>I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!

May not be the best idea, kemosabe. I've heard that they're planning on a
token update to coincide with this to avoid that problem. (It's been a few
years since the last change, anyway, so maybe it's time for new.)

>-Jason

//jbaltz
jerry b. altzman Entropy just isn't what it used to be +1 212 650 5617
jba...@columbia.edu jba...@sci.ccny.cuny.edu KE3ML (HEPNET) NEVIS::jbaltz

Esoteric Resources Incorporated

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Aug 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/5/95
to esot...@inch.com
Attributions deleted to save space

>>>I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!
>>
>>May not be the best idea, kemosabe. I've heard that they're planning on a
>>token update to coincide with this to avoid that problem. (It's been a few
>>years since the last change, anyway, so maybe it's time for new.)
>>

>Didn't they say that one other time, and on the big day, the tokens were
>the same? "We lied".

Once again, how it works, from The RailRoad Clerk From Hell:

Say a fare increase is scheduled to occur, from $1.00 to $1.15 at 12:01
AM on January 1.

Suppose further that a particular booth averages having 5000 tokens in it
at midnight.

The week before the fare increase, the collection agents of the NYCTA
will go along, not only delivering the current token in sealed bags and
boxes, but also a different token in specially marked bags. (They've done
this 4 times that I've seen, and I've never seen boxes [of 10-Paks].)

EVERY supervisor is called back from vacation, and sent out to those
booths that have the most tokens, in case, if the current ($1) token
becomes the later ($1.15) token, no clerk takes, say, $1000 out of their
pocket and takes 1000 tokens home, saying he sold them before midnight,
only to surreptitiously bring them back at a 15% profit.

At 11:55 PM, the Mass Call System to all booths is activated, and clerks
are told which token will be the $1.15 token.

OOPS !! - I forgot to mention - all the overnight clerks are told to come
in early, and all afternoon/evening clerks stay late. If the tokens are
changed, the afternoon clerk bags up the old tokens, and, there is no
worry about collusion.
If the tokens are not changed, and you're best buddies with the other
clerk, you can fudge figures (as to which of you actually sold the
tokens) and make a few hundred bucks.

The NYCTA's major emotional goal in life being never give a RRC a break,
that's why they go through this subterfuge.(Don't be paranoid - it really
isn't you, the public, that they hate.)

Riverline

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Aug 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/5/95
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What's the current status of the NYCTA fare card machine project? I heard
lots of hoopla over it, and then it seems to have died away. I guess
they'll reprogram each pass thru to take the additional fare, so there's
no point in grossing up cards now.

PATH's fare card system seems to be running flawlessly, as far as I can
tell. They haven't instituted the off peak weekend discounts they
promised, however.

Paul Reiss

Christopher Thompson

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Aug 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/5/95
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In article <3vu45a$l...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> jba...@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B Altzman) writes:
>In article <DCsEx9.J3...@torfree.net>,
>Jason R. DeCesare <bp...@torfree.net> wrote:
>[...re transit hikes...]
>>I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!
>
>May not be the best idea, kemosabe. I've heard that they're planning on a
>token update to coincide with this to avoid that problem. (It's been a few
>years since the last change, anyway, so maybe it's time for new.)
>
>>-Jason

>jerry b. altzman Entropy just isn't what it used to be +1 212 650 5617
>jba...@columbia.edu jba...@sci.ccny.cuny.edu KE3ML (HEPNET) NEVIS::jbaltz

Didn't they say that one other time, and on the big day, the tokens were


the same? "We lied".

Chris


Daniel Convissor

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Aug 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/5/95
to

>And they were talking so bravely last year about discount passes by
>this summer . . .
>Sigh.

But that's what happens when jerks are elected. This "groundswell" of
popular change is a bunch of garbage. 51% of the NYC voters and 54% of
the nation's electorate can hardly be called a "mandate." The boneheads
in office now are cutting transit support and increasing highway
spending, so all the good things, like transit passes for the public, or
just free transport for students (those horrible, big government, commie,
kinds of things) go down the toilet. Alas.
--
|| D A N I E L C O N V I S S O R : "The Capitol: the nation's Pols 'R' Us
|| e-mail: dan...@panix.com : megastore, where nostalgia items like
|| Transport Policy Analyst : trickle-down economics are endlessly
|| Brooklyn, New York : hawked." --Francis Clines

Joshua Hosseinoff

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Aug 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/5/95
to
But they also claimed during the last fare hike that they would change
the token types to prevent hoarding and they never did. I don't think
they will this time as it would cost a lot to retool all their token
machines and mint new tokens and then they'd have to set up an exchange
program for the old tokens +25 cents. Chances are that they will just
phase out tokens altogether in two years once the metrocard is universal.

On 4 Aug 1995, Jerry B Altzman wrote:

> In article <DCsEx9.J3...@torfree.net>,
> Jason R. DeCesare <bp...@torfree.net> wrote:
> [...re transit hikes...]
> >I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!
>
> May not be the best idea, kemosabe. I've heard that they're planning on a
> token update to coincide with this to avoid that problem. (It's been a few
> years since the last change, anyway, so maybe it's time for new.)
>
> >-Jason
>

> //jbaltz

Colin R. Leech

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Aug 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/6/95
to
In a previous message, jba...@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B Altzman) wrote:
>Jason R. DeCesare <bp...@torfree.net> wrote:
>[...re transit hikes...]
>>I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!
>
>May not be the best idea, kemosabe. I've heard that they're planning on a
>token update to coincide with this to avoid that problem. (It's been a few
>years since the last change, anyway, so maybe it's time for new.)

One of the nice things about tokens is that they last virtually forever,
compared to tickets.

In Toronto, when a fare hike is imminent, the TTC restricts the sales of
tokens for a couple of weeks ahead of time. They will only sell you a 10-pack
at a time instead of a 50-pack (I may have the exact numbers wrong - somebody
may correct me). It is still possible to hoard by buying a 10-pack at every
station as you pass through it, but it's so much hassle that most people
won't bother.

You would have to hoard an awful lot of tokens to make any kind of profit
on this. If the fare hike is 5%, and it takes you a year to use all the
tokens that you have hoarded, you might as well have invested your money
elsewhere. If you are selling tokens to other people, you would have to
sell a *lot* of them (remember, why would people buy from you instead of
the TA unless you discount the price?) to make any money. It's just not
worthwhile.

--
Colin R. Leech |-> Civil engineer by training, transportation
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca |-> planner by choice, trombonist by hobby.
Nepean, Ontario, Canada |-> "I'd like a penny." - Tom Downs, Amtrak.
My opinions are my own, not my employer's. You may consider them shareware.

Hank Eisenstein

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Aug 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/6/95
to
Joshua Hosseinoff (hoss...@yu1.yu.edu) wrote:
: But they also claimed during the last fare hike that they would change
: the token types to prevent hoarding and they never did. I don't think
: they will this time as it would cost a lot to retool all their token
: machines and mint new tokens and then they'd have to set up an exchange
: program for the old tokens +25 cents. Chances are that they will just
: phase out tokens altogether in two years once the metrocard is universal.


The new tokens were minted for the increase from .90 to $1 (or was it
from $1 to $1.15?) all it is is a small screww inside each turnstile to
change (or a little more, it depands on the differences in the tokens)
and programming the bus boxes to accept the new token, and the old one
will simply be counted as $1.25.


JEich99620

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
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M.T.A. - More Trouble Ahead!

Jay

JEich99620

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
to
I think before the MTA looks for us (again) to foot the bill for their
incompetence, they should look from within at all the waste that takes
place in management.

Firstly, there are way to many chiefs governing the MTA.

Secondly, why does their headquarters have to be on Madison Avenue on some
of the most expensive real estate in the world?

Thirdly, if the LIRR would realize that freight service IS profitable and
stop waiting for a government subsidy to bail them out, we wouldn't have
to be discussing this.

Jay

Warren Schreiber

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
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In article <4044b3$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> jeich...@aol.com (JEich99620) writes:
>From: jeich...@aol.com (JEich99620)
>Subject: Re: Proposed NYC MTA Fare Increases!
>Date: 7 Aug 1995 00:20:51 -0400

>I think before the MTA looks for us (again) to foot the bill for their
>incompetence, they should look from within at all the waste that takes
>place in management.

>Firstly, there are way to many chiefs governing the MTA.

I agree there is an over abundance of management people working for the MTA
and NYCTA, but even if 90% of them were eliminated the savings would be
insufficient to balance the budget. It is almost impossible to overcome a
major loss of revenue from the state, city and federal goverments all coming
at the same time. The MTA is very limited in their options; it's either a
fare increase or massive service cutbacks that would destroy the system.

Warren

Warren Schreiber | w...@interport.net
=====================================
NEW YORK CITY...Will it ever become user friendly?


Jason R. DeCesare

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
to
<3vu45a$
l...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <DCto9L.3p4@scisun.s
Organization: Sure Need Some!

In a previous article, esot...@inch.com (Esoteric Resources Incorporated)
says:

<Snip>

>
>Once again, how it works, from The RailRoad Clerk From Hell:
>
>Say a fare increase is scheduled to occur, from $1.00 to $1.15 at 12:01
>AM on January 1.

<Snip>

>The week before the fare increase, the collection agents of the NYCTA
>will go along, not only delivering the current token in sealed bags and
>boxes, but also a different token in specially marked bags. (They've done
>this 4 times that I've seen, and I've never seen boxes [of 10-Paks].)

<Snip>

>At 11:55 PM, the Mass Call System to all booths is activated, and clerks
>are told which token will be the $1.15 token.

Now lets say the powers that be (MTA Board) raises the fare and they actually
do change the token. Now do the old tokens I have become worthless or will
I be able to exchange them for new tokens or their cash value?

-Jason
--
_________
/ ___ \ Jason DeCesare | bp...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
| O |o|(4)| "World Still Nasty Place, Report Says" NY Newsday, A22 7/5/95
| | | | "Maybe there is a design to what we are doing." - Rudi Giuliani
| : |_| : | "I'm inclined to think its pretty darn good." - George Bush
|---------|
I I "Stand clear of the closing doors" - NYC Subway

Larry Martell

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
to
In article <DCsEx9.J3...@torfree.net> bp...@torfree.net (Jason R. DeCesare) writes:
>
>The New York Times (8//4/95) reports that the chairman of the
>MTA wants to raise fares on November 1. The article appears
>on A-1, column 2 of The Times (at least the metro edition).
>(If you want a copy of the article e-mail me.)
>
>MTA Fare Proposals:
>Subway and bus fare increased to $1.50
>Metro-North (in NY only) and L.I.R.R. fares increased 9%
>All student transit passes eliminates immediately
>Bridge and tunnel toll increase
>(increase of $.25 to $.50 depending on crossing)
>$ 3 billion in spending cuts
>
>These are subject to public hearings and approval by the
>MTA board.
>
>I guess it may be time to start hoarding tokens!

Another reason not to use the metrocard.
--
Larry Martell
lar...@imsi.com I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.

Seth Breidbart

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
to
In article <DCxr5J.9C...@torfree.net>,

Jason R. DeCesare <bp...@freenet.toronto.on.ca> wrote:

>Now lets say the powers that be (MTA Board) raises the fare and they actually
>do change the token. Now do the old tokens I have become worthless or will
>I be able to exchange them for new tokens or their cash value?

According to the MTA, the old tokens are still worth what you paid for
them.

However, I'm looking at a token, and it has stamped into it, "GOOD FOR
ONE FARE". I consider that a contract; it doesn't say "Good for one
fair until we raise the rates".

The TBTA lost a lawsuit on just that issue a few years ago (they
raised tolls, and tried to claim that old tokens weren't good for a
trip).

Seth

Seth Breidbart

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Aug 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/7/95
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In article <DCvqn...@freenet.carleton.ca>,

Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:

>You would have to hoard an awful lot of tokens to make any kind of profit
>on this. If the fare hike is 5%,

No fare hike here has ever been that low.

> and it takes you a year to use all the
>tokens that you have hoarded, you might as well have invested your money
>elsewhere. If you are selling tokens to other people, you would have to
>sell a *lot* of them (remember, why would people buy from you instead of
>the TA unless you discount the price?)

Because you approach the people at the _end_ of a long line waiting to
buy tokens. You can even get a premium that way.

Seth

Esoteric Resources Incorporated

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Aug 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/8/95
to bp...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
bp...@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Jason R. DeCesare) wrote:

>Now lets say the powers that be (MTA Board) raises the fare and they actually
>do change the token. Now do the old tokens I have become worthless or will
>I be able to exchange them for new tokens or their cash value?
>

>-Jason
>--
> _________
>/ ___ \ Jason DeCesare | bp...@freenet.toronto.on.ca


You'll be able to exchange an old token plus cash for a new token, or
with old = $1.25 and new = $1.50, 6 old tokens for 5 new tokens.


Jason R. DeCesare

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Aug 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/11/95
to

In a previous article, w...@interport.net (Warren Schreiber) says:

>In article <4044b3$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> jeich...@aol.com (JEich99620) w
rites:
>>From: jeich...@aol.com (JEich99620)
>>Subject: Re: Proposed NYC MTA Fare Increases!
>>Date: 7 Aug 1995 00:20:51 -0400
>
>>I think before the MTA looks for us (again) to foot the bill for their
>>incompetence, they should look from within at all the waste that takes
>>place in management.
>
>>Firstly, there are way to many chiefs governing the MTA.
>
>I agree there is an over abundance of management people working for the MTA
>and NYCTA, but even if 90% of them were eliminated the savings would be
>insufficient to balance the budget.

Now does anyone know how much money the MTA has to pay for their offices
on Madison Ave? Has to be a a lot! Plus all of the little chiefs can ride
for free, but proably get driven around in big black limos. Guess who pays?

I think that the MTA board should actually ride the system every day.
Maybe then they can understand what the hell they are doing, and save some
money by getting rid of the big black limos.

-Jason

--
New York was built by invisible men and women, their work hidden beneath
the dust of all the years. We have left all the care of our present to
these forgotten people: when the crash comes, the dust of our own neglect
rises, and we glimpse through the clouds the durable genius of good work.
- Jim Dwyer, New York Newsday, Wednesday, January 26, 1994

Daniel Convissor

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Aug 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/11/95
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In <DD4z61.C2...@torfree.net> bp...@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Jason R. DeCesare) writes:

>Now does anyone know how much money the MTA has to pay for their offices
>on Madison Ave? Has to be a a lot!

I believe they own 347 Madison, but I don't know for a fact.

>Plus all of the little chiefs can ride
>for free, but proably get driven around in big black limos. Guess who pays?

I think you're wrong about honchos getting driven around at our expense.
Many of them do use the system.


>I think that the MTA board should actually ride the system every day.
>Maybe then they can understand what the hell they are doing, and save some
>money by getting rid of the big black limos.

The tough thing about the MTA's Board is most of them are politicos who
have _cars_,not limos, with drivers provided by the government they work
for, not the MTA, and financial bigwigs, who get driven around in their
personally owned limos. Many of them live and work outside of the city,
so don't expect them to be riding the subways that often at all, though I
hope they get on Metro-North and LIRR once and a while.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
here's a listing of the board members, as of 1994...


[Peter Stangl, MTA Chair: transportation professional. Before being
appointed chair, was President of the MTA's Metro-North Commuter
RR since it's inception in 1983. HE IS NO LONGER CHAIR! HE'S BEEN
REPLACED BY VIRGIL CONWAY, A WESTCHESTER COUNTY FRIEND OF OUR NEW
GOVERNOR PATAKI, WHO'S ALSO FROM WESTCHESTER. Anyway, Stangl was pretty
cool and did ride the system, as far as I know.]

Daniel Scannell, MTA First Vice Chair: transportation professional.
Appointed to Board in 1976. Former Chair, American Public Transit
Association. Former Executive Committee member, International
Union of Public Transport. NYC Transit Authority executive: Senior
Exec. Officer, 1971-76; Commissioner; General Counsel. Former
NYC Corporation Counsel, 1947-55 and Police officer/detective, 1938-
47. Lives in Jamaica Estates, Queens.


Lilyan Affinito: corporate honcho. Board member of NY Telephone,
Caterpillar, Chrysler, Tambrand, K-Mart, American Multiple
Sclerosis Society. Former President/COO Maxxam Group, 1976-87
and Controller, 1968-75. Lives in Manhattan.

Bernard Beal: municipal financial securities. Founder/CEO M.R.
Beal & Co. Was Senior Banker at many housing authorities around
the nation. Lives in Brooklyn.

Virgil Conway: financial attorney. Former Chair, Seamens Savings
Bank, 1968-88. Former NY State Deputy Superintendant of Banks.
Board of Union Pacific and Consolidated Edison (NYC's electric/gas
utility). Lives in Bronxville (Westchester) and Montauk (Suffolk).

Bert Corneby: managerial sort? Former Supt. US Mint at West
Point, 1990-93. Deputy Commisioner for Finance, Orange County,
1985-90. Council Member, Monroe, 1974-80.

Warren Dolny: transportation buff. President, Port Printed
Products, Corp (stationary) Over 20 years on Rocland County
Transportation Advisory Council. Jewish War Vets (Korea).

John Dyson: politician. NYC First Deputy Mayor (Finance &
Economic Development). Former political positions:
Chair NY Power Authrority, 1979-85
doubled import of canadian hydropower
+) cheaper
-) flooded out native americans
built small hydro facilities in NYS
refinanced bonds
raised credit rating
NYS Commerce Commissioner, 1975-79
big on incentive packages to keep corporations in state
Chair, Dyson-Sinclair Associates, investment company (vineyards)
Controlling stock holder, B.W. Elliot, Binhampton, NY
Lives somewhere in Metro-North territory.

Barry Feinstein: progressive labor leader. President, City
Employees Local 237, International Brootherhood of Teamsters,
1967-1993. Began with Teamsters in 1957. Lives in Dutchess
County.

Peter Kalikow: real estate jerk. President, H.J. Kalikow & Co.
Appointed President by father. Director: Rent Stabilization Assoc.
(lobbying for elimination of rent stabilization), Real Estate Board,
Realty Federation of NY. On boards of hospitals. Involved in United
Jewish Appeal and Israeli causes.

Abraham Lackman: politician. Director, NYC Office of Management
and Budget. Former Director of Fiscal Studies, NY State Senate
Finance Committee. There he pushed tax reduction bills, the Safe
Streets legislation and a highway bond act. Lives in Brooklyn.

David Mack: law enforcement. Assistant Commissioner, Nassau
County Police Department. Involved in United Jewish Appeal stuff
and boating. Lives in Kings Point. Vice President / Senior Partner,
Mack Construction Co, (New Jersey).

Prema Mathai-Davis: elderly specialist. Former Commissioner, NYC
Department of the Aging. Big on promoting minorities. Lives on
Staten Island.

James Sedore, Jr: local Republican party activist. Certified Public
Accountant. Lives in Fishkill and works in Wappingers Falls
(Dutchess County).

Edward Vrooman: lawyer. Director/Secretary/General Counsel, Tri-
State Motor Transit, Joplin, Missouri. Lives in Garrison, works in
NYC. Member of Garrison civic associations.

Alfred Werner: transportation professional. Commmissioner of
Aviation and Transportation for Town of Islip. Manager, MacArthur
Airport. Lives in Suffolk County.

Michael549

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Aug 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/12/95
to

I still say that if Colin Fergurson (sp) could be cloned 10-20 times over,
and made an assault on MTA headquarters, and NYCTA headquarters,
elminating everyone on the spot - the budget finances of the transit
systems would not change to a great degree. Yes, some of the executives
make a lot of money, and have perks, etc. but the "real money" is spent
on the thousands of day to day workers: conductors, motormen, repairmen,
trackmen, etc.

When the politicos suggest that all that has to be done is elminate the
"headquarters" they are simply trying to get us to "resent" the
executives, and treat the executives as scapegoats in our anger over the
fare.

If 347 Madison Avenue is state property then it pays no real estate taxes
to New York City, and therefore costs almost "nothing" behind maintenance
costs. Sinilar to every public school building, firehouse, etc.

Too often there's this idea that "public servants" should work in squalor
surroundings, in order that the public is getting its "worth from its
buck". That's why every now and then there are scandals about pink
leather couches, etc. Others would argue that to attract the caliber of
the leadership and manpower needed, that leadership and manpower has to be
paid well. Definitely not poverty wages. Then there is a hue and cry
because the leadership is paid well.

If we did as the politicos suggested and eliminated the headquarters
staff, the politicos woud be back "in charge" of running those agencies,
and taking the blame that goes with it. It seems that the politicos are
trying to have their cake and eat it. Castigate with great hue and cry,
and then deny responsibility.

Michael549

Rock Miller

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Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
to
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:

>You would have to hoard an awful lot of tokens to make any kind of profit

>on this. If the fare hike is 5%, and it takes you a year to use all the


>tokens that you have hoarded, you might as well have invested your money
>elsewhere. If you are selling tokens to other people, you would have to
>sell a *lot* of them (remember, why would people buy from you instead of

>the TA unless you discount the price?) to make any money. It's just not
>worthwhile.
>

Ah, but New York ain't Ottawa, my friend. First, the proposed fare hike is 20
percent, not 5 percent, which makes the stakes a lot richer. In a city
where hundreds of people make a living selling cheap watches, T-shirts, earrings,
and other things out of suitcases on the street, there's no shortage of small-
time entrepreneurs who know how to arbitrage on a spread of ten or fifteen
cents a transaction, and the high volumes of potential customers in our
densely crowded and transit-dependent city ensure that this activity is
highly worthwhile, especially if said entrepreneur can offer the additional
service of helping people to beat a long line at the token booths.

-----------------------------------------------------
Rock Miller (71054,5...@compuserve.com)
Metropolitan Transportation Authority, New York

On My Own Dime. All Opinions are Strictly Personal
-----------------------------------------------------

Rock Miller

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Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
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lar...@imsi.com (Larry Martell) wrote:

>Another reason not to use the metrocard.

Free bus to subway transfers will be available only to
Metrocard users.

Rock Miller

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Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
to
chr...@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Christopher Thompson) wrote:

>Didn't they say that one other time, and on the big day, the tokens were
>the same? "We lied".

We did. However, we didn't lie. As I understand it, the tokens were already made
then, but our anti-hoarding campaign was so successful that we didn't have to use
them. They are already manufactured and are sitting in sacks in the money rooms,
so the TA can introduce a new token at relatively small incremental cost. Hoarding
isn't going to pay this time, either.

Rock Miller

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Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
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jeich...@aol.com (JEich99620) wrote:

>I think before the MTA looks for us (again) to foot the bill for their
>incompetence, they should look from within at all the waste that takes
>place in management.

Given the tone of the above statement, I don't expect that you're a person
who has much regard for details and facts. However, for the benefit of others
who may be more thoughtful, the TA has shed over 7000 employees, many of them
administrative and managerial, in the past five years, and has held its operating
budget increases below the rate of inflation in spite of the severity of the recession
which cut deeply into our revenue base. Our fare operating ratio is over 60 percent,
which is attained by no other transit agency in the country. The current financial
plan projects over $3 billion in operating savings over the next five years,
which is an extraordinarily aggressive, indeed, historic commitment. Without
them, the fare increase would be much larger.

There are plenty of opportunities for more efficiency (and I know more about
waste at the TA than you'll ever know). But it is dopey and ignorant to pretend
that the volumes of potential administrative and management savings are anywhere
close to sufficient to offset the enormous subsidy cuts that we are facing. As
with all transit agencies, the really big costs are driven by operating labor costs,
which in turn are a function of work rules and civil service rules. MTA management has
next to no control over these factors without strong political support. If the politicians
really want these efficiencies, they are going to have to go on the hook for making them
happen, which means confronting labor and the civil service organizations over work
and hiring practices, taking the heat for prolonged labor unrest, and virtuously
withstanding the various political and monetary inducements that will be offered to
them by the affected interests.

It is to them that your ire and scrutiny should be directed. Ask them (and yourself)
if they are willing to take a strike to achieve work rule changes that can make
express bus service and one-person train operation financially feasible. Ask your
politicians why City residents pay 75 percent of TBTA bridge tolls but the subway
only reaps 50 percent of the surpluses, and why we're not hearing anything from
them about a campaign in Albany to change this inequitable State law. Ask them why,
if money is so tight, we can afford to *increase* the amount we are spending on
roads and bridges (particularly Upstate roads and bridges, which are far less cost
effective than City transit in terms of subsidy per user), and why we can afford
to give away tax breaks so lavishly and selectively. Ask your City Council representatives
why they are now complaining about fare increases that are the inevitable result of the
City budget that they voted for just a few months ago, and didn't raise a peep about.

If you allow yourself to be diverted from these relevant issues by gas about illusory
"management savings" then you're just a willing sucker in a political three-card monte
game.


>
>Secondly, why does their headquarters have to be on Madison Avenue on some
>of the most expensive real estate in the world?
>

We own our headquarters buildings, and picked them up at a good price as I understand
it. Midtown real estate is an asset that only increases in value. When we sell
and/or redevelop the site, the profits (which will go to capital subsidies) are likely
to be very large. This is how transit systems in other parts of the world make money
to offset the high costs of operating the service, incidentally.

>Thirdly, if the LIRR would realize that freight service IS profitable and
>stop waiting for a government subsidy to bail them out, we wouldn't have
>to be discussing this.

Basic arithmetic shows the absurdity of this statement. With good management, freight
might break even or make a small profit, but the scale of the operation is so small
in relation to the volume of passenger service that even if it made a handsome percentage
return it would do very little to offset the deficits on LIRR's commuter services, much
less the much larger costs of the City subway.

If freight service on Long Island were potentially profitable, don't you think
Conrail or some other private railroad would want a piece of it? The fact is, they
don't want to touch it for many reasons, including poor infrastructure, insufficient
network connectivity, and clearance problems, which would require major capital investment
in order to support modern freight railroad operations. Until those are made (and
it will take government money -- lots of it -- to make them) no private company is
going to touch it.

Transit service is expensive to run and expensive to operate, but for a place
like New York, it's essential. Think of the annualized value of the Manhattan
real estate base, and consider that none of it could exist without MTA's transit services.
The costs of the MTA's operating and capital subsidies are going to seem petty by comparison.

Rock Miller

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Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
to
>Plus all of the little chiefs can ride
>for free, but proably get driven around in big black limos. Guess who pays?

You must be thinking about the deputy mayors and commissioners. As far as I know,
only the Chairman and the NYCTA president have cars. Peter Stangl commuted on Metro North
anyway. The rest of us get transit passes (almost nobody gets free passage on the TBTA
bridges, even the Board members), which we need for field work anyway.

Given the nature of the State's salary scale, MTA's top executives make probably a
third of what they would make at a private company for a job of similar responsibilities.
How much do you think the CEO and CFO of a corporation with 65,000 employees *should* make?
Lower level jobs are more competitive, and a comparison between the quality and
professional competence of the MTA managerial workforce as compared with, say,
the City's, shows why this is money well spent. In any case, there aren't enough of
us to make much of a difference; you could get rid of all of us and it wouldn't
make a dent in problems of this magnitude.

>>I think that the MTA board should actually ride the system every day.
>>Maybe then they can understand what the hell they are doing, and save some
>>money by getting rid of the big black limos.

I'd love to see more City residents on the MTA Board, especially those who live in
transit-dependent parts of the City. The Mayor does have four appointments, which
he could use to ensure that transit riders and their interests are adequately
represented. I'd like everyone to think about whether they think this Mayor has
done that.

Seth Breidbart

unread,
Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
to
In article <40r4ve$8...@dub-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>,
Rock Miller <7105...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> As I understand it, the tokens were already made
>then, but our anti-hoarding campaign was so successful that we didn't have to use
>them. They are already manufactured and are sitting in sacks in the money rooms,
>so the TA can introduce a new token at relatively small incremental cost. Hoarding
>isn't going to pay this time, either.

I'm looking at a token that says on it "Good for one fare". How are
you going to get around the implied contract?

Seth

Robert Coe

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Aug 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/18/95
to
On 7 Aug 1995 14:39:53 -0400, se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:
: According to the MTA, the old tokens are still worth what you paid for
: them.
:
: However, I'm looking at a token, and it has stamped into it, "GOOD FOR

: ONE FARE". I consider that a contract; it doesn't say "Good for one
: fair until we raise the rates".
:
: The TBTA lost a lawsuit on just that issue a few years ago (they
: raised tolls, and tried to claim that old tokens weren't good for a
: trip).

It's all a matter of how you want them to play the game. Would you
rather they rationed the sale of old tokens in order to prevent
hoarding? The inevitable result would be long lines at the booth.

The fundamental problem is New York's medieval resistance to monthly
passes. Along with the other obvious advantages of monthly passes
(which have been discussed at length in this newsgroup), they make fare
changes trivial to implement.
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 508-443-3265


Seth Breidbart

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Aug 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/18/95
to
In article <410nui$b...@news.iii.net>, Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM> wrote:
>On 7 Aug 1995 14:39:53 -0400, se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:
>: According to the MTA, the old tokens are still worth what you paid for
>: them.
>:
>: However, I'm looking at a token, and it has stamped into it, "GOOD FOR
>: ONE FARE". I consider that a contract; it doesn't say "Good for one
>: fair until we raise the rates".
>:
>: The TBTA lost a lawsuit on just that issue a few years ago (they
>: raised tolls, and tried to claim that old tokens weren't good for a
>: trip).
>
>It's all a matter of how you want them to play the game. Would you
>rather they rationed the sale of old tokens in order to prevent
>hoarding? The inevitable result would be long lines at the booth.

I'd rather they announced that the fare would eventually be going up,
and that the tokens would not be changed. They could then earn
interest on the money people spent on the tokens they hoarded. That
interest would reduce (or at least postpone) the need for a fare
increase.

Seth

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