(so-called) bridge/tunnel toll "discounts" at risk.
danny burstein
-----
Toll bridge discount for local residents might be unconstitutional
In upstate New York, near Niagara Falls, motorists crossing the Grand
Island Bridge have to pay a toll. Everyone pays 75 cents, unless you live
on Grand Island. People who live on Grand Island pay as little as nine
cents per trip. Is this legal? Maybe not.
The case is Selevan v. New York State Thruway Authority, decided on
October 15. In a ruling that took more than a year for the Second Circuit
to resolve, the Court (Cabranes, Pooler and Katzmann) finds that this
lawsuit challenging the toll differential may have merit under various
constitutional provisions, including some provisions which many lawyers
have not thought about since law school
---
rest:
http://secondcircuitcivilrights.blogspot.com/2009/10/toll-bridge-discount-for-local.html
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Jimmy
> [advertising/blog by legal firm, but points are valid]
> -----
> Toll bridge discount for local residents might be unconstitutional
>
> In upstate New York, near Niagara Falls, motorists crossing the Grand
> Island Bridge have to pay a toll. Everyone pays 75 cents, unless you live
> on Grand Island. People who live on Grand Island pay as little as nine
> cents per trip. Is this legal? Maybe not.
What exactly has been decided by this suit? Did the circuit court
send it back to the district court?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/us/02ezpass.html describes a lawsuit
challenging resident toll discounts in Rhode Island and
Massachusetts. I haven't heard any updates about that suit. But
since it was filed, the Newport Pell Bridge toll has gone up to $4
each way, from $1.75, while Rhode Island residents with E-ZPass still
pay $.83.
Jimmy
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> In upstate New York, near Niagara Falls, motorists crossing the Grand
> Island Bridge have to pay a toll. Everyone pays 75 cents, unless you live
> on Grand Island. People who live on Grand Island pay as little as nine
> cents per trip. Is this legal? Maybe not.
There are a variety of govt services that charge non-residents more
than residents, if non-residents can participate at all. Many towns
have commuter parking lots and parks/rec centers open to residents
only. Public school is most obivous, residents get it free, while non-
residents, if accepted, must pay tuition. State and county colleges
charge non residents more than residents.
I believe Triborough gives residents of certain neighborhoods
discounts on some of its bridges serving those neighborhoods.
Vince
Talk about schools when I was in third grade our local Parish St
Gabriel's (Linwood and New Lots in Bklyn)was going to start having
school and for some silly reason
my mom wanted me to go there (not my sister however)
Well that idea died after she found out there was tuition.
John Levine
>Island Bridge have to pay a toll. Everyone pays 75 cents, unless you live
>on Grand Island. People who live on Grand Island pay as little as nine
I read the decision, which is entirely about high minded issues of the
right to travel and interestate commerce, not about the specific
facts in this case.
The NYTA bridges are the only way on or off Grand Island; either you
pay the toll or you walk across the bridge (which is impractical any
time other than a warm summer day.) Also, if you don't want to pay
the toll, it is quite easy to avoid it by using NY 384 or US 62, both
state highways open to any vehicle that can use the Thruway. When
this goes back to court, a reasonable argument for the NYTA to make is
that the regular toll is cost-based, and the resident rate is
discounted due to the fact that island residents are prisoners of the
NYTA. We'll see.
R's,
John
Phil Kane
wrote:
>Talk about schools when I was in third grade our local Parish St
>Gabriel's (Linwood and New Lots in Bklyn)was going to start having
>school and for some silly reason
>my mom wanted me to go there (not my sister however)
>Well that idea died after she found out there was tuition.
I thought that everyone knew that Parochial School (of any faith) was
not free.
--
"Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please"
Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District
Vince
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:22:18 -0400, Vince <vpil...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Talk about schools when I was in third grade our local Parish St
>> Gabriel's (Linwood and New Lots in Bklyn)was going to start having
>> school and for some silly reason
>> my mom wanted me to go there (not my sister however)
>> Well that idea died after she found out there was tuition.
>
> I thought that everyone knew that Parochial School (of any faith) was
> not free.
> --
>
This was the 1950s I never got the whole story, if they (my folks) did
know about tuition or not I don't recall. Well thanks goodness it never
took place bible class after school with a nun (the 2nd year of
conformation classes) who called the boys "honey" was bad enough.
Phil Kane
wrote:
>This was the 1950s I never got the whole story, if they (my folks) did
>know about tuition or not I don't recall. Well thanks goodness it never
>took place bible class after school with a nun (the 2nd year of
>conformation classes) who called the boys "honey" was bad enough.
The Jewish version in the 1940s wasn't any better.
--
Peter T. Daniels
> > wrote:
>
> >> This was the 1950s I never got the whole story, if they (my folks) did
> >> know about tuition or not I don't recall. Well thanks goodness it never
> >> took place bible class after school with a nun (the 2nd year of
> >> conformation classes) who called the boys "honey" was bad enough.
>
> > The Jewish version in the 1940s wasn't any better.
> > --
>
> > Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
> > PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District
>
> NU? No kidding I can just image.
>
> You know Phil these days we can laugh at such things, but back then.........
They were talking about sending me to Our Lady Queen Amadis rather
than public school, but then somehow heard about St. Hilda's (not yet
and St. Hugh's), an Episcopal school near Columbia. (Which is how I
got to commute on the subway for 11 years.) Years later, I found out
that there was a parish called Our Lady, Queen of Martyrs.
Phil Kane
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Years later, I found out
>that there was a parish called Our Lady, Queen of Martyrs.
The school that I remember was Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Brooklyn
because it was the elementary school sports champion for many years
straight. My public school buddy lived on New Jersey Avenue just off
Livonia Avenue - where the IRT ran - across the street from St John
Cantius school, which he described as a very scary place in the 1940s.
He was of Polish ancestry, as was the saint after which the parish was
named. Google tells me that it still exists.
--
"Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please"
Peter T. Daniels
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:20:31 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >Years later, I found out
> >that there was a parish called Our Lady, Queen of Martyrs.
>
> The school that I remember was Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Brooklyn
> because it was the elementary school sports champion for many years
> straight. My public school buddy lived on New Jersey Avenue just off
> Livonia Avenue - where the IRT ran - across the street from St John
> Cantius school, which he described as a very scary place in the 1940s.
>
> He was of Polish ancestry, as was the saint after which the parish was
> named. Google tells me that it still exists.
I know almost nothing about Catholic parishes in NYC (especially
Brooklyn!), whereas in Chicago they were the principal neighborhood
organizing forces. Some neighborhoods had as many as five parishes --
each for its own ethnic group.
Just about the only thing Cardinal Bernardin, the greatly beloved, did
that displeased his flock was the consolidation of such overlapping
parishes; he was widely expected to be the first American pope..
Almost the last thing I saw in Chicago was the "slow-speed hearse
chase" eerily reminiscent of O.J.'s "slow-speed Bronco chase" when he
was buried in an outlying cemetery (Chicago's cardinals aren't
interred beneath the cathedral, as often happens). The future Cardinal
George was named archbishop either just before or just after I left.
chris.li...@gmail.com
As a resident of Rockaway, I get a discount on the Gil Hodges/Marine
Park Bridge, and the Cross Bay Bridge is free.
Chris
Jimmy
> When
> this goes back to court, a reasonable argument for the NYTA to make is
> that the regular toll is cost-based, and the resident rate is
> discounted due to the fact that island residents are prisoners of the
> NYTA. We'll see.
What about people who have to use the Grand Island bridges but aren't
residents? They're in the same situation, but they don't get the
discounts.
There's also no reason to discourage through traffic, since 190 is the
road best suited to carry large amounts of traffic between Buffalo and
Niagara Falls.
Jimmy
Jimmy
> As a resident of Rockaway, I get a discount on the Gil Hodges/Marine
> Park Bridge, and the Cross Bay Bridge is free.
How do you manage that? http://www.mta.info/bandt/traffic/btmain.htm
says both bridges charge Rockaway residents $1.13 with E-ZPass and
$1.54 with tokens (is that 13 trips for $20?). It doesn't say that
the Cross Bay Bridge is free for anyone.
It also says they've reintroduced tokens for the general public on
these bridges, at $1.83 each. Is that 6 trips for $11, or 12 trips
for $22? What do these tokens look like?
Jimmy
chris.li...@gmail.com
Ah, sorry. Both the discount and the freebie are predicated on having
EZ Pass. You used to be able to buy tokens at a discount if you had a
Rockaway sticker (available to residents, obviously) but now the money
business is all on your EZ Pass statement.
Chris
Jimmy
> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > As a resident of Rockaway, I get a discount on the Gil Hodges/Marine
> > > Park Bridge, and the Cross Bay Bridge is free.
>
> > How do you manage that? http://www.mta.info/bandt/traffic/btmain.htm
> > says both bridges charge Rockaway residents $1.13 with E-ZPass and
> > $1.54 with tokens (is that 13 trips for $20?). It doesn't say that
> > the Cross Bay Bridge is free for anyone.
>
> EZ Pass. You used to be able to buy tokens at a discount if you had a
> Rockaway sticker (available to residents, obviously) but now the money
> business is all on your EZ Pass statement.
Sorry if my discussion of the tokens confused the issue. The web page
I linked to does list the Rockaway resident E-ZPass discount, but it
doesn't say anything about anyone getting to use the Cross Bay Bridge
for free. Are you sure that deal is still in effect?
Jimmy
chris.li...@gmail.com
Yes, it was as of a few days ago. It may very well get the ax on
Sunday (1 NOV), when the other surcharges (on taxis and things) go
into effect.
Chris
Jimmy
> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > The web page
> > I linked to does list the Rockaway resident E-ZPass discount, but it
> > doesn't say anything about anyone getting to use the Cross Bay Bridge
> > for free. Are you sure that deal is still in effect?
>
> Sunday (1 NOV), when the other surcharges (on taxis and things) go
> into effect.
So there's not just a discriminatory toll discount -- there's a
second, even bigger secret discriminatory toll discount. Fun stuff
from the MTA. I've never heard of any other toll agency that provides
a 100% discount based on residence, and doesn't tell the general
public it is doing so.
Jimmy
chris.li...@gmail.com
Discriminatory? Nonsense. Would you charge a toll for people to go
from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
part of the same borough?
Chris
Bolwerk
What difference should that make? If there's a major waterway that has
to be bridged, and there needs to be a toll pay for it, users should pay
the toll regardless of the borough.
Of course, I'm all in favor of getting rid of low-volume tolls in favor
of high-volume tolls for two reasons: it pisses of the limousine
liberals like Freedom Frigther while lowering the amount of car welfare
they get, but more importantly it has can smooth out traffic in
Manhattan and the the bridge approaches to Manhattan.
Jimmy
> > So there's not just a discriminatory toll discount -- there's a
> > second, even bigger secret discriminatory toll discount. Fun stuff
> > from the MTA. I've never heard of any other toll agency that provides
> > a 100% discount based on residence, and doesn't tell the general
> > public it is doing so.
>
> from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
> people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
> part of the same borough?
That's not the point, and borough lines are totally irrelevant to the
issue.
My point was that various people need to drive across the Rockaway
bridges, for various reasons. Some of them get discounts or free
passage, and others don't, for reasons totally unrelated to the costs
involved in such people's passage across the bridge.
Yes, many of the frequent bridge users are residents of Rockaway or
Broad Channel. But many of them aren't.
If you think the tolls on these bridges are too high (and I certainly
do), the solution isn't huge discounts for certain politically-
connected groups of people.
I did manage to dig up an MTA web page that mentions the Cross Bay
Bridge freebie deal for residents: http://www.mta.info/bandt/html/dscintro.htm
. It says the resident toll on the Marine Parkway and Cross Bay
Bridges is $1.13 for residents with E-ZPass, except for the Cross Bay
Bridge where there is no toll for residents with E-ZPass.
Jimmy
chris.li...@gmail.com
> chris.linthomp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 4:45 pm, Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> >> "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> >>>> The web page
> >>>> I linked to does list the Rockaway resident E-ZPass discount, but it
> >>>> doesn't say anything about anyone getting to use the Cross Bay Bridge
> >>>> for free. Are you sure that deal is still in effect?
> >>> Yes, it was as of a few days ago. It may very well get the ax on
> >>> Sunday (1 NOV), when the other surcharges (on taxis and things) go
> >>> into effect.
> >> So there's not just a discriminatory toll discount -- there's a
> >> second, even bigger secret discriminatory toll discount. Fun stuff
> >> from the MTA. I've never heard of any other toll agency that provides
> >> a 100% discount based on residence, and doesn't tell the general
> >> public it is doing so.
>
> >> Jimmy
>
> > Discriminatory? Nonsense. Would you charge a toll for people to go
> > from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
> > people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
> > part of the same borough?
>
> What difference should that make? If there's a major waterway that has
> to be bridged, and there needs to be a toll pay for it, users should pay
> the toll regardless of the borough.
It makes a difference because it is the only place in the entire city
where residents of a borough are charged a toll to go to another part
of the borough. Your arguments might hold up better if other such
bridges were tolled. But just a fast look at Google Maps shows me that
the Hamilton Ave. bridge over the Gowanus Canal is not tolled, and
neither is the BQE over the same waterway. The BQE goes on to cross
Newton Creek- no toll. And the Belt crosses numerous waterways in
Brooklyn and Queens, among the Gerritsen Inlet, Marine Park Inlet, and
Mill Basin- none of which are tolled.
Chris
chris.li...@gmail.com
> "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > So there's not just a discriminatory toll discount -- there's a
> > > second, even bigger secret discriminatory toll discount. Fun stuff
> > > from the MTA. I've never heard of any other toll agency that provides
> > > a 100% discount based on residence, and doesn't tell the general
> > > public it is doing so.
>
> > Discriminatory? Nonsense. Would you charge a toll for people to go
> > from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
> > people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
> > part of the same borough?
>
> That's not the point, and borough lines are totally irrelevant to the
> issue.
Not to the residents, it's not.
> My point was that various people need to drive across the Rockaway
> bridges, for various reasons. Some of them get discounts or free
> passage, and others don't, for reasons totally unrelated to the costs
> involved in such people's passage across the bridge.
>
And the cost to someone driving over the Marine Park Bridge once or
twice every few months fades into insignificance compared the the
burden imposed on someone who has to cross it every day, or at least
several times a week.
> Yes, many of the frequent bridge users are residents of Rockaway or
> Broad Channel. But many of them aren't.
I bet there aren't too many people commuting into Rockaway on a daily
basis. It isn't exactly a boomtown down there, you know. Sure,
firefighters, police, teachers come in. Not much in the way of
industry though, and the financial sector hasn't yet seen fit to open
brokerage houses there.
> If you think the tolls on these bridges are too high (and I certainly
> do), the solution isn't huge discounts for certain politically-
> connected groups of people.
I'm politically connected? COOL! When did that happen? When do the
kickbacks start?
:)
Chris
Peter Schleifer
>It makes a difference because it is the only place in the entire city
>where residents of a borough are charged a toll to go to another part
>of the borough. Your arguments might hold up better if other such
>bridges were tolled. But just a fast look at Google Maps shows me that
>the Hamilton Ave. bridge over the Gowanus Canal is not tolled, and
>neither is the BQE over the same waterway. The BQE goes on to cross
>Newton Creek- no toll. And the Belt crosses numerous waterways in
>Brooklyn and Queens, among the Gerritsen Inlet, Marine Park Inlet, and
>Mill Basin- none of which are tolled.
Put tolls on all of them!
--
Peter Schleifer
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself"
chris.li...@gmail.com
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:41:02 -0800 (PST), "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com"
Yeah, if you live under a bridge you must wish for a little peace and
quiet, I guess.
Chris
Bolwerk
So? Boroughs are arbitrary lines on the map.
> Your arguments might hold up better if other such
> bridges were tolled.
I'm totally against haphazard tolling, and have advocated replacing
tolling entirely with congestion charging or at least tolling equitably
(e.g., if the 59th Street Bridge is tolled, then other crossings should
be equally tolled). Unfortunately, our State Fathers like to pretend
that would be some horrible burden thrust upon the poor and middle class
rather than relief from one.
But if we're going to look at this based on the needs of the bridge in
question, rather than the macro scale, what needs to be done is to raise
enough money to pay for the bridge without regard for other cases.
This was about the Rockaways, right? I lost track of the tread a bit.
But isn't that bridge quite a bit longer and more maintenance-intensive
than most of the non-tolled ones you mention? Also, it may get more
state/federal support.
chris.li...@gmail.com
Well, the Hamilton Avenue Bridge, and the Mill Basin Bridge are both
drawbridges. I'd bet they are more expensive to keep up than the Cross-
Bay Bridge. (The Marine Park Bridge is a lift bridge, and Rockaway
residents get a discount but not free passage.)
Chris
Jimmy
> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Discriminatory? Nonsense. Would you charge a toll for people to go
> > > from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
> > > people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
> > > part of the same borough?
>
> > That's not the point, and borough lines are totally irrelevant to the
> > issue.
>
> Not to the residents, it's not.
Borough lines have been entirely irrelevant since the city was
unified, except to people who have a lot of business at the county
courthouse, and they probably have bigger problems than paying a
bridge toll.
Why would you plan where you drive based on borough lines? Would you
ever choose a less convenient or more expensive store, or a more
stressful or lower-paying job, or visit family or friends who you
don't like very much, just because it would mean you didn't have to
leave your borough?
Yes, the tolls get in the way of people who are making trips that are
quick and convenient, and otherwise cheap. But that problem doesn't
affect just residents.
> > My point was that various people need to drive across the Rockaway
> > bridges, for various reasons. Some of them get discounts or free
> > passage, and others don't, for reasons totally unrelated to the costs
> > involved in such people's passage across the bridge.
>
> And the cost to someone driving over the Marine Park Bridge once or
> twice every few months fades into insignificance compared the the
> burden imposed on someone who has to cross it every day, or at least
> several times a week.
That would be an argument for frequent-user discounts, not resident
discounts and free passage.
If you were recommending turning the Rockaway bridges over to NYCDOT
and making them free for everyone, I'd totally agree. But now that
residents can cross for free, they don't need to consider anyone
else's problems with the tolls.
> > Yes, many of the frequent bridge users are residents of Rockaway or
> > Broad Channel. But many of them aren't.
>
> I bet there aren't too many people commuting into Rockaway on a daily
> basis. It isn't exactly a boomtown down there, you know. Sure,
> firefighters, police, teachers come in. Not much in the way of
> industry though, and the financial sector hasn't yet seen fit to open
> brokerage houses there.
There are also small businesses, just like any other NYC
neighborhood. And just because a (supposedly) small number of people
is being treated unfairly doesn't make it right.
> > If you think the tolls on these bridges are too high (and I certainly
> > do), the solution isn't huge discounts for certain politically-
> > connected groups of people.
>
> I'm politically connected? COOL! When did that happen? When do the
> kickbacks start?
Every time you drive across the Cross Bay Bridge for free.
Jimmy
danny burstein
>Why would you plan where you drive based on borough lines? Would you
>ever choose a less convenient or more expensive store, or a more
>stressful or lower-paying job, or visit family or friends who you
>don't like very much, just because it would mean you didn't have to
>leave your borough?
One key determinant remains in place, namely school districts.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Peter T. Daniels
> "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > > "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Discriminatory? Nonsense. Would you charge a toll for people to go
> > > > from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
> > > > people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
> > > > part of the same borough?
>
> > > That's not the point, and borough lines are totally irrelevant to the
> > > issue.
>
> > Not to the residents, it's not.
>
> Borough lines have been entirely irrelevant since the city was
> unified, except to people who have a lot of business at the county
> courthouse, and they probably have bigger problems than paying a
> bridge toll.
>
> Why would you plan where you drive based on borough lines? Would you
> ever choose a less convenient or more expensive store, or a more
> stressful or lower-paying job, or visit family or friends who you
> don't like very much, just because it would mean you didn't have to
> leave your borough?
Some apartments in the Marble Hill Houses are in both Manhattan and
the Bronx. A surveyor might be able to find that for some spouses in a
double bed, one might sleep in one borough, the other in the other.
Peter T. Daniels
> In <92c259ab-fe0f-4881-8ee7-e91646f0b...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> writes:
>
> >Why would you plan where you drive based on borough lines? Would you
> >ever choose a less convenient or more expensive store, or a more
> >stressful or lower-paying job, or visit family or friends who you
> >don't like very much, just because it would mean you didn't have to
> >leave your borough?
>
> One key determinant remains in place, namely school districts.
It's likely that JFK HS, and the middle school and elementary school
that were subsequently built adjacent to it, are also in both boroughs
(this was a railroad yard when we first moved to Marble Hill in the
early 1960s.)
danny burstein
[snipppppp]
>> >ever choose a less convenient or more expensive store, or a more
>> >stressful or lower-paying job, or visit family or friends who you
>> >don't like very much, just because it would mean you didn't have to
>> >leave your borough?
>>
>> One key determinant remains in place, namely school districts.
>It's likely that JFK HS, and the middle school and elementary school
>that were subsequently built adjacent to it, are also in both boroughs
>(this was a railroad yard when we first moved to Marble Hill in the
>early 1960s.)
Speaking of that area of the almost Bronecks, the NY Times actually
got the details right in a recent story:
[NY Times]
One of the largest developments in northern Manhattan in decades, East River
Plaza is the most significant commercial development in East Harlem since a
Pathmark supermarket opened on Lexington Avenue and 125th Street in 2000.
The Target store will be the first to be fully situated in Manhattan (a
Target in the Bronx dips its toe into the Marble Hill section of Manhattan).
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/realestate/commercial/21plaza.html
obtransit wish list: If the community board and other pressure
groups had gotten together and made a good case, they could probably
have "traded" giving Target, etc., an extra floor in return for
them putting up an enclosed building with escalators to the
Broadway subway there. (Which, in spite of being called a subway,
is actually overhead).
chris.li...@gmail.com
> "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > > "chris.linthomp...@gmail.com" <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Discriminatory? Nonsense. Would you charge a toll for people to go
> > > > from Forest Hills to Elmhurst along Queens Boulevard? Where else do
> > > > people have to pay a toll to go from one part of a borough to another
> > > > part of the same borough?
>
> > > That's not the point, and borough lines are totally irrelevant to the
> > > issue.
>
> > Not to the residents, it's not.
>
> Borough lines have been entirely irrelevant since the city was
> unified, except to people who have a lot of business at the county
> courthouse, and they probably have bigger problems than paying a
> bridge toll.
That's a joke, right?
When I was a grad student, I lived in Bushwick for a couple years. My
line was, "From where I live, I can see a really nice neighborhood".
It was true, too. If I leaned out my window, I could just barely see
the few blocks to Woodward Avenue into Ridgewood. For being
irrelevant, that was a pretty darned significant line on a map.
>
> Why would you plan where you drive based on borough lines? Would you
> ever choose a less convenient or more expensive store, or a more
> stressful or lower-paying job, or visit family or friends who you
> don't like very much, just because it would mean you didn't have to
> leave your borough?
>
> Yes, the tolls get in the way of people who are making trips that are
> quick and convenient, and otherwise cheap. But that problem doesn't
> affect just residents.
>
> > > My point was that various people need to drive across the Rockaway
> > > bridges, for various reasons. Some of them get discounts or free
> > > passage, and others don't, for reasons totally unrelated to the costs
> > > involved in such people's passage across the bridge.
>
> > And the cost to someone driving over the Marine Park Bridge once or
> > twice every few months fades into insignificance compared the the
> > burden imposed on someone who has to cross it every day, or at least
> > several times a week.
>
> That would be an argument for frequent-user discounts, not resident
> discounts and free passage.
That does bring up an interesting point. Obviously, the vast majority
of frequent users are the residents. Historically, that was probably
the only way of according the most frequent users a decent discount.
With EZPass, now the discount could be predicated on the number of
times you cross the bridge, rather than where you live. That just
wasn't possible before. Maybe the whole system of awarding discounts
is a result of institutional inertia.
> If you were recommending turning the Rockaway bridges over to NYCDOT
> and making them free for everyone, I'd totally agree. But now that
> residents can cross for free, they don't need to consider anyone
> else's problems with the tolls.
Actually, I don't see any big reason not to turn them over to NYCDOT.
I would advocate that for all the MTA crossings that are entirely
within NYC. Is there any precedent for that? And is there any
guarantee that NYCDOT would not just keep the tolls on the bridges,
because they could?
>
> > > Yes, many of the frequent bridge users are residents of Rockaway or
> > > Broad Channel. But many of them aren't.
>
> > I bet there aren't too many people commuting into Rockaway on a daily
> > basis. It isn't exactly a boomtown down there, you know. Sure,
> > firefighters, police, teachers come in. Not much in the way of
> > industry though, and the financial sector hasn't yet seen fit to open
> > brokerage houses there.
>
> There are also small businesses, just like any other NYC
> neighborhood. And just because a (supposedly) small number of people
> is being treated unfairly doesn't make it right.
And like the small businesses in most NYC neighborhoods, the owners
live near the businesses. And with EZ Pass, it should be easy to give
those owners who do not live in Rockaway free passage over the
bridges. I would certainly support that.
>
> > > If you think the tolls on these bridges are too high (and I certainly
> > > do), the solution isn't huge discounts for certain politically-
> > > connected groups of people.
>
> > I'm politically connected? COOL! When did that happen? When do the
> > kickbacks start?
>
> Every time you drive across the Cross Bay Bridge for free.
Is free commuting on the Staten Island Ferry a kickback? The vast
majority of ferry riders are not tourists or folks from other
boroughs. I have not ridden the SI Ferry for 20 years- not since a
half-remembered night when I had a long conversation with a fellow who
claimed to be King of All the Russias. He might have been telling the
truth for all I know. But how does something like that figure in to
your equation?
Chris
>
> Jimmy
chris.li...@gmail.com
> [advertising/blog by legal firm, but points are valid]
> -----
> Toll bridge discount for local residents might be unconstitutional
>
> In upstate New York, near Niagara Falls, motorists crossing the Grand
> Island Bridge have to pay a toll. Everyone pays 75 cents, unless you live
> on Grand Island. People who live on Grand Island pay as little as nine
> cents per trip. Is this legal? Maybe not.
>
> October 15. In a ruling that took more than a year for the Second Circuit
> to resolve, the Court (Cabranes, Pooler and Katzmann) finds that this
> lawsuit challenging the toll differential may have merit under various
> constitutional provisions, including some provisions which many lawyers
> have not thought about since law school
> ---
> rest:http://secondcircuitcivilrights.blogspot.com/2009/10/toll-bridge-disc...
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
> dan...@panix.com
> [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
I just checked my online EZ Pass statement and as of 11/4, it seems
Rockaway residents can still transit the Cross Bay Bridge for free.
Chris
J.R.Guthrie
>Rockaway residents can still transit the Cross Bay Bridge for free.
This would also do in the Staten Island discounts . . .
Cheers.
Jim
chris.li...@gmail.com
Are the SI discounts only on the VN Bridge, or do SI residents get a
discount on the Goethal's, Bayonne, and Outerbridge?
Chris
Peter T. Daniels
Joseph D. Korman
http://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/e-zpass.html:
The Port Authority Staten Island Bridges Plan is $80 for 20 trips in
a 35-day period at the Goethals and Bayonne bridges and the
Outerbridge Crossing, or $4 per trip. This reduced rate is available
to all E-ZPass customers with noncommercial plates who enroll in the
plan. Unused trips cannot be refunded.
There is a car pool discount for three or more in the car at $2.00,
given through the EZ Pass account and using a manned lane.
There is an off peak $2.00 discount with EZ Pass. Here peak hours
actually charge SI residents more, since most are returning to SI on
weekends between noon and 8:00PM. *
*
*PEAK HOURS*
Weekdays: 6-9 a.m., 4-7 p.m., Sat. & Sun.: 12 Noon-8 p.m.
--
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Jimmy
> chris.linthomp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Are the SI discounts only on the VN Bridge, or do SI residents get a
> > discount on the Goethal's, Bayonne, and Outerbridge?
>
>
> given through the EZ Pass account and using a manned lane.
>
> There is an off peak $2.00 discount with EZ Pass. Here peak hours
> actually charge SI residents more, since most are returning to SI on
> weekends between noon and 8:00PM. *
None of these Port Authority discount plans mentions a residence
requirement.
Jimmy