> Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan. > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.
Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S. ammunition.
The story was about the 6th Avenue el.
I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.
>Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you >predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to 63rd. There go another nine blocks...
He has a point in that the proposed line gives New York the shaft, but he really needs to have his facts checked.
> > Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan. > > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.
> Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down > in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S. > ammunition.
> The story was about the 6th Avenue el.
> I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.
Mark Mentovai <n...@mentovai.com> wrote: >Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit: >>Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you >>predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
>He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run >from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to >63rd. There go another nine blocks...
Actually he's right because the last 2nd ave stop is 72nd. The 63rd St stop is at Lex.
>He has a point in that the proposed line gives New York the shaft, but >he really needs to have his facts checked.
Well, I don't know how far off it will be before we see a train running under 2nd Avenue.
But I've been watching TA, NYC and NYS politics for decades and I've seen a lot of groups and politicians fight "the good fight" demanding this or that or the other "and nothing less."
What we've actually gotten is close to nothing. I think some politicians would rather say "we stopped those b*st*rds" than see anything built.
Almost 30 years ago the MTA published a laundry list of new lines (including the full 2nd Ave. subway) which they insisted would get built despite the fact that the voters finally got sick of passing multi-BILLION dollar bond issues which never seemed to result in the building of promised transit. With the list were completion dates ... we were cautioned that some low-priority projects might not get completed until the mid-1990's.
So I say: let's shift gears. Put full backing behind the Broadway-2nd Avenue Subway. Say, "OK, you say you'll build this." Do it. NOW.
Then we can militate for extensions and additions.
Stephen Bauman <SBau...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > > Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan. > > > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.
> > Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down > > in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S. > > ammunition.
> > The story was about the 6th Avenue el.
> > I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.
> Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit: > >Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you > >predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
> He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run > from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to > 63rd. There go another nine blocks...
I think he got that from the fact that the _stations_ will be from 125th to 72nd--i.e., the southernmost 2nd Avenue station will be at 72nd St.
> He has a point in that the proposed line gives New York the shaft, but > he really needs to have his facts checked.
It's more than we have now.
Some people seem to get pleasure out of whining about being shafted. I find it cold comfort.
> >Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit: > >>Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you > >>predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
> >He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run > >from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to > >63rd. There go another nine blocks...
> Actually he's right because the last 2nd ave stop is 72nd. The 63rd > St stop is at Lex.
He does give the distinct impression the _line_ will run from 125th to 72nd. Maybe he just expressed it carelessly.
> Well, I don't know how far off it will be before we see a train running > under 2nd Avenue.
> But I've been watching TA, NYC and NYS politics for decades and I've seen a > lot of groups and politicians fight "the good fight" demanding this or that > or the other "and nothing less."
> So I say: let's shift gears. Put full backing behind the Broadway-2nd Avenue > Subway. Say, "OK, you say you'll build this." Do it. NOW.
> Then we can militate for extensions and additions.
I agree with you. If people see that _something_ is actually getting built, real shoveling-the-dirt work rather than shuffling-the-paper work, a lot of (so far justified) cynicism will fade away and we'll see plenty of support for more work.
-- Peter Rosa PR...@prodigy.net prosa...@yahoo.com R32...@aol.com ULNQ...@prodigy.com
I think it's better to build the 'Stubway' now. As soon as a shovel is turned, the pressure from the community with force them to continue building south. While construction is underway on segment 1, the planning and impact statments can be done for segment 2. Nothing wrong with opening in stages, ala WMATA. -Hank
-- http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon Amateur Photographer ni...@quuxuum.org Fire-Emergency Services Hank Eisenstein Transit-NY Metro Staten Island, NY AOL IM: Hank21k ICQ UIN# 1579309 Let's Go Mets!!
> > Well, I don't know how far off it will be before we see a train running > > under 2nd Avenue.
> > But I've been watching TA, NYC and NYS politics for decades and I've seen a > > lot of groups and politicians fight "the good fight" demanding this or that > > or the other "and nothing less."
> > So I say: let's shift gears. Put full backing behind the Broadway-2nd Avenue > > Subway. Say, "OK, you say you'll build this." Do it. NOW.
> > Then we can militate for extensions and additions.
> I agree with you. If people see that _something_ is actually getting > built, real shoveling-the-dirt work rather than shuffling-the-paper > work, a lot of (so far justified) cynicism will fade away and we'll see > plenty of support for more work.
> -- > Peter Rosa > PR...@prodigy.net > prosa...@yahoo.com > R32...@aol.com > ULNQ...@prodigy.com
PM> From: "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> PM> Subject: Re: Jim Dwyer Column on 2nd Av Subway Scam PM> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:30:29 GMT PM> Organization: Optimum Online PM> > PM> > Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan. PM> > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off. PM> PM> Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down PM> in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S. PM> ammunition. PM> PM> The story was about the 6th Avenue el. PM> PM> I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.
I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era. But for Dwyer's piece harped on the inequity between City and suburban funding and attention. What caught my eye was the map next to his article,, apparently not part of it. This showed the alignment of the 'new' 2nd Av line. It's the utter same as the northern leg of the Rockefeller plan with one subtile exception. The line now indexes to Lexington Av for a side-by-side (or over-under) transfer with the Lexingron Av line. There is still no stop at/near 116th St -- there's that long K-&-half run from 106th St to 125th St, bypassing all of East Harlem. There is still no station in the upper 70s. These are features of the Rockefeller plan which were roundly debinked in the 1070s. Why are they kept in the face of soaring pop increase and commuter increase from the Bronx? A parallel article in the same paper notes that the density of the UES is now about 60,000/Km2 -- equal to that of 3rd world cities like Calcutta, Cairo, Jakarta. It excedes Istanbul (I was surprised) which I visited this summer for the solar eclipse! Yet there are just 3 stations in UES, 1 for el Barrio, and 1 for Harlem central. The hoopla from the MTA stresses the use of the express tracks in the BMT Broadway line. It is completely silent on ewhat goes on in 2nd Avenue. Guess what? The effing plan still posits a two-track road. That's it. If you live or fabor the Bronx you should be very worried. There is no committment to push the 2nd Avenue line into the Bronx at all. Note carefully the new location of that 125th St station. By putting it next to the green line it is far too easy to presume that riders from the Bronx will transfer to the 2nd Avenue line, so there's no need to have that line extend farther north. This placement of the north end of the 2nd Avenue line actually complicates the Rockefeller plan to merge it into the Pelham and Dire Av lines. If anything, there may be a one-stop extension to 149th & Grand Concourse and that's it for the rest of the 21st century.
>> Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan. >> As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off. >Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down >in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S. >ammunition. >The story was about the 6th Avenue el.
The 2nd Avenue El didn't go all at once. The section north of 59th Street was closed in 1940, but the rest lasted until 1942. If I recall correctly, the Japanese interests that bought the scrap steel from both the 6th Avenue El and the Delaware Avenue El in Philadelphia used dummy companies, ostensibly based in West Coast cities, to obtain the scrap metal. It was discovered later when someone or some group decided to check out the "companies", only to discover that the firms did not exist, and the scrap was going to Japan.
In <9oxJ3.5567$GV2.8488...@news.optonline.net> "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> writes:
>> I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th >> Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a >> vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.
The urban legend (which I've NEVER seen any proof of) is that bomb fragments had stampings or tags in them saying things like "Patterson Poundings" or "Ironbound Ironworks".
danny "remember, that's back in the days when we had steel and iron foundries in this country" burstein -- _____________________________________________________ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key dan...@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
> PM> From: "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> > PM> Subject: Re: Jim Dwyer Column on 2nd Av Subway Scam > PM> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:30:29 GMT > PM> Organization: Optimum Online > PM> > > PM> > Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan. > PM> > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off. > PM> > PM> Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down > PM> in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S. > PM> ammunition. > PM> > PM> The story was about the 6th Avenue el. > PM> > PM> I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.
> I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th > Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a > vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.
The facts of the story appear to be this:
IIRC, the popular phrase was something like "We sold the 6th Avenue el to Japan, and they gave it back to us at Pearl Harbor."
The steel from the 6th Avenue el was sold, either directly to Japan, or to Japan through a broker.
In the context of the pre-War era, this was not such a big deal. Japan was almost totally dependent on imported steel for its economy, which included its developing war machine. Japan was especially dependent on the U.S. for steel.
As Japan's militarism became more intense (or more difficult to ignore in the spirit of business-as-usual) there was pressure to embargo steel shipments to Japan, much as today many call for embargoing the sale of supplies or equipment with military use to countries deemed hostile or war-mongering.
The U.S. did embargo steel to Japan, which Japan took to be a hostile action, since the U.S. was a neutral nation at the time. Some revisionist historians today cite the embargo as a measure which "forced" Japan to attack the U.S. at Pearl Harbor.
So, insofar as steel sold by the U.S. to Japan helped its war effort, it is constructively true that "we got the 6th Avenue el back at Pearl Harbor." But I've never seen any evidence that the _actual_ steel from the el was used in those munitions.
> In <9oxJ3.5567$GV2.8488...@news.optonline.net> "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> writes:
> >> I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th > >> Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a > >> vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.
> The urban legend (which I've NEVER seen any proof of) is that bomb > fragments had stampings or tags in them saying things like "Patterson > Poundings" or "Ironbound Ironworks".
Talk about urban legends!
I would imagine that any scrap sold to Japan was completely melted down and re-smelted before it was made into whatever.
It's true that aluminum from the BMT Green Hornet probably ended up in military aircraft in WWII, but I would be more than amazed if someone found a Pullman-Standard builder's plate in one of those airplanes.