train vs. bus to Baltimore?
Peter T. Daniels
Parking at the hotel is $26/night (gas for the 400 or so miles could
be $30 by next month). So a fare under $100 could be attractive.
I cannot find anything about prices at the amtrak.com site (I found
the schedule for Acela Express/Northeast Regional/a few specially
named trains). Under "Deals" it seems that 25% off the regular one-way
price NY-Bal is $48.
It's a two-hour trip.most of the time. The hotel website says there's
light rail from the station to the Yards.
Is there any through service NWK-BAL other than what's on the Amtrak
schedule?
Would a bus be significantly cheaper? take significantly longer? Where
is the bus station in Baltimore?
Bolwerk
On the front page search
FROM: NWK
TO: BAL
for the date you want to leave. It should give you prices.
You didn't give a time, but it appears one-way trips on 7 Jan. 2010 are
available at different times of the day on regionals for $48.00. This
will go up the closer you get the date of departure, I think. One
departs Newark at 9:52 AM and arrives at Baltimore at 12:17 PM.
Interestingly, Acelas are often $148.00 and not much faster.
Steven M. O'Neill
>Interestingly, Acelas are often $148.00 and not much faster.
"Business Class is offered as an upgrade on many of our
long-distance and short-distance trains and is the minimum class
of service on Acela Express."
--
Steven O'Neill ste...@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
Bolwerk
> Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Interestingly, Acelas are often $148.00 and not much faster.
>
> "Business Class is offered as an upgrade on many of our
> long-distance and short-distance trains and is the minimum class
> of service on Acela Express."
I understand that, but $100 more for a little more leg room on a train
that's still half-empty a lot of the day? Still seems silly.
Steven M. O'Neill
It's that plus the quicker ride, no? Plus the fact that they
are trying to compete with the airlines for the business
traveler. Isn't business class a code for "more expensive
because someone else is paying for it"?
(From memory, it was 1:55 vs 2:46, which could make it
reasonable, depending how much your time is worth.)
Jimmy
> Would a bus be significantly cheaper? take significantly longer? Where
> is the bus station in Baltimore?
You can check bus schedules and fares for discount services at
http://gotobus.com , http://megabus.com , and http://boltbus.com . I
think the standard fare is about $20, though there are often
promotions -- Megabus is currently offering seats as cheap as 50 cents
for January 6 - March 20 with the GETAWAY discount code.
You'd have to go to the (NYC) Penn Station area to catch these buses.
Jimmy
Bolwerk
> Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Steven M. O'Neill wrote:
>>> Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Interestingly, Acelas are often $148.00 and not much faster.
>>> "Business Class is offered as an upgrade on many of our
>>> long-distance and short-distance trains and is the minimum class
>>> of service on Acela Express."
>> I understand that, but $100 more for a little more leg room on a train
>> that's still half-empty a lot of the day? Still seems silly.
>
> It's that plus the quicker ride, no? Plus the fact that they
> are trying to compete with the airlines for the business
> traveler. Isn't business class a code for "more expensive
> because someone else is paying for it"?
I dunno, it's supposedly profitable though.
From a policy perspective, I'd rather just see it priced so that trains
are reasonably full.
Business class doesn't get you many perks. You get a slightly more
fancy looking environment, slightly faster service, a little more leg
room, and the option to use conference tables - if someone else didn't
already take them, and practically speaking they just get used as
seating when the train is full. The cafe car serves the same crappy
food and beverages. That said, it's a pleasant trip and still beats flying.
I don't know how it compares to business class on the regionals. I
never used it. I took first class on the Acela once. They completely
fucked up my dinner order. I think I ate by the time I got to Newark
(from DC).
> (From memory, it was 1:55 vs 2:46, which could make it
> reasonable, depending how much your time is worth.)
No way. I do DC<->NYC all the time. The Acelas save you 30 or so
minutes over the regionals. The spread would be even less for
Baltimore. A bus would probably take 2:45 or so, if traffic is decent.
Steven M. O'Neill
Checked again. The 3:20 AM train from NWK to BAL is 2:46.
But you're right, most of the others are 2:25, 2:18 or 2:12.
Bolwerk
> Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Steven M. O'Neill wrote:
>>> (From memory, it was 1:55 vs 2:46, which could make it
>>> reasonable, depending how much your time is worth.)
>> No way. I do DC<->NYC all the time. The Acelas save you 30 or so
>> minutes over the regionals. The spread would be even less for
>> Baltimore. A bus would probably take 2:45 or so, if traffic is decent.
>
> Checked again. The 3:20 AM train from NWK to BAL is 2:46.
>
> But you're right, most of the others are 2:25, 2:18 or 2:12.
I think the night trains make every single stop there is.
(I was on one that stopped in Newark, Delaware, a few weeks ago. They
made everyone walk across the tracks at grade when leaving.)
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Would a bus be significantly cheaper? take significantly longer? Where
> > is the bus station in Baltimore?
>
> think the standard fare is about $20, though there are often
> promotions -- Megabus is currently offering seats as cheap as 50 cents
> for January 6 - March 20 with the GETAWAY discount code.
>
> You'd have to go to the (NYC) Penn Station area to catch these buses.
In the middle of January with a carry-on-size suitcase? and stand
around outside? I don't think so! PATH goes right into Newark Penn
Station.
Peter T. Daniels
Two weeks in advance gets you the $48 one way. I am not, however,
going one way, and surely a round trip is significantly less? I would
like to see a display of all the possible rates, not randomly type
departure times into the form and see what comes up.
> Interestingly, Acelas are often $148.00 and not much faster.-
Bolwerk
AFAIK, you don't get a discount for going round trip. You pick your
departure time and your return time and add the two together.
I often just get the return ticket just before I return. So I sometimes
eat $30 for added flexibility.
Jimmy
> > going one way, and surely a round trip is significantly less? I would
> > like to see a display of all the possible rates, not randomly type
> > departure times into the form and see what comes up.
>
> AFAIK, you don't get a discount for going round trip. You pick your
> departure time and your return time and add the two together.
That's correct -- no round trip discounts any more, except possibly
with some special promotions or discount codes.
Amtrak now uses capacity-controlled fares in addition to advance-
purchase discounts -- the price goes up as more people buy tickets on
a given train. So it's not so easy to provide a list of all the
possible fares. But I think the underlying structure is still Acela
Express versus regular trains, and higher fares Friday/Sunday
afternoons versus the rest of the week.
I'd recommend googling for Amtrak discount codes -- there are often
codes for 20% off (although it looks like you already found 25% off).
An AAA number (yours or someone else's) gets 10% off with a 3-day
advance purchase.
Jimmy
Peter T. Daniels
Crap. On Sunday afternoon, there's a return trip at $64 that I might
just barely make after the end of the meeting. All the rest are $92,
making a total round trip fare of $140 (plus the van and PATH at this
end and the light rail down there). I guess I'll be driving.
Well, Discover Card is giving a 5% reward on hotel charges for that
quarter, so at least the parking will count toward that.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> I understand that, but $100 more for a little more leg room on a train
> that's still half-empty a lot of the day? Still seems silly.
Just like a restaurant, you a paying a premium for the better
ambience. Obviously certain trips offer a better value than others
and this isn't one of them.
The LIRR charges a premium fare for certain trains, and I believe the
price is the same if you go 100 miles or 10 miles.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Would a bus be significantly cheaper? take significantly longer? Where
> is the bus station in Baltimore?
A bus would probably be cheaper but not as reliable, especially during
the winter. I guess Greyhound serves that corridor and you could
check their website.
Cheap commuter trains go as far as south as Newark, Del.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> That's correct -- no round trip discounts any more, except possibly
> with some special promotions or discount codes.
> I'd recommend googling for Amtrak discount codes -- there are often
> codes for 20% off (although it looks like you already found 25% off).
> An AAA number (yours or someone else's) gets 10% off with a 3-day
> advance purchase.
Good point. Don't forget AAA or NARP membership yield a discount for
advance purchases.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Crap. On Sunday afternoon, there's a return trip at $64 that I might
> just barely make after the end of the meeting. All the rest are $92,
> making a total round trip fare of $140 (plus the van and PATH at this
> end and the light rail down there). I guess I'll be driving.
Sunday afternoons are busy travel times so fares are higher.
So is traffic. Usually the NJ Tpk backs up southbound so you
hopefully will be ok, but it can back up northbound as well. I don't
know about I-95 in Penna and Del, but backups are always possible.
Carry good road maps of the corridor you'll be travelling through so
if there is a jammup you can divert.
Steven M. O'Neill
I put Newark, NJ to Newark, DE into Google Maps, and it says 7
hours and 57 minutes if you start now (8:44 pm Thursday).
1:15 from Newark to Trenton on NJT; 9 minutes to transfer to a
SEPTA R7; 47 mins to 30th Street; 4 hours, 24 mins. to make the
transfer to an R7; and 55 mins. to Newark. Then you can
walk for 19 minutes to Main Street, which Google apparently
considers "Newark, DE".
If I tell Google I want to arrive at 8 am tomorrow, it is only
4 hours 10 minutes.
(This trip is an hour and 36 minutes on Amtrak, but there's only
one train a day that stops in Newark, DE, apparently.)
There are also Wilmington city buses that go to Newark from
Wilmington train station. Those should take about an hour, but
there are a lot more trains (Amtrak and probably SEPTA too, that
stop there.)
Peter T. Daniels
A couple years ago I went to one session of the Society for Biblical
Literature in Philadelphia (at an immense convention center next to
the main sunken highway?) -- parked on the street a few blocks away --
on a Sunday evening in November. No problem in either direction.
BTW Greyhound is $44 round trip (21 days in advance) but it's nearly 4
hr going, 5 1/2 hr returning -- from "Newark," no indication of where
the bus station is -- for a 180-mile trip.
Peter T. Daniels
> <hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 10, 12:32 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> Would a bus be significantly cheaper? take significantly longer? Where
> >> is the bus station in Baltimore?
>
> >A bus would probably be cheaper but not as reliable, especially during
> >the winter. I guess Greyhound serves that corridor and you could
> >check their website.
>
> >Cheap commuter trains go as far as south as Newark, Del.
>
> I put Newark, NJ to Newark, DE into Google Maps, and it says 7
> hours and 57 minutes if you start now (8:44 pm Thursday).
>
> 1:15 from Newark to Trenton on NJT; 9 minutes to transfer to a
> SEPTA R7; 47 mins to 30th Street; 4 hours, 24 mins. to make the
> transfer to an R7; and 55 mins. to Newark. Then you can
> walk for 19 minutes to Main Street, which Google apparently
> considers "Newark, DE".
When I typed "Newark" into the "From" box at Amtrak, its first guess
was Newark, DE (NRK). And when I started typing "Baltimore" into the
"To" box, its first guess was Balboa Park, San Diego! (Then I got to
the t.)
Stephen Sprunk
> Steven M. O'Neill wrote:
>> Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I understand that, but $100 more for a little more leg room on a
>>> train that's still half-empty a lot of the day? Still seems silly.
>>
>> It's that plus the quicker ride, no? Plus the fact that they
>> are trying to compete with the airlines for the business
>> traveler. Isn't business class a code for "more expensive
>> because someone else is paying for it"?
>
> I dunno, it's supposedly profitable though.
>
> From a policy perspective, I'd rather just see it priced so that trains
> are reasonably full.
What is better, filling trains or maximizing total revenue? Lowering
prices may get you more passengers, but that doesn't mean total revenue
will go up; it may, in fact, go down. Thanks to Congress, reducing
fares during off-peak times also reduces the fares that Amtrak can
legally charge during peak times... And, it's entirely possible the
trains during the business day are "half-empty" because there's simply
not enough demand at those times at _any_ price. Many airlines would
park their planes during such times rather than operate a money-losing
flight, but most of trains' costs are fixed, meaning it usually makes
sense to run them every hour they're available for service, regardless
of how many seats are empty. Plus, having those "empty" off-peak trains
available makes the peak trains more attractive (and thus able to fetch
higher fares) because passengers know they can just hop on the next
train if they finish their trip a few hours early or late, vs. having to
sit at the train station for several hours.
> Business class doesn't get you many perks. You get a slightly more
> fancy looking environment, slightly faster service, a little more leg
> room, and the option to use conference tables - if someone else didn't
> already take them, and practically speaking they just get used as
> seating when the train is full. The cafe car serves the same crappy
> food and beverages. That said, it's a pleasant trip and still beats
> flying.
Business class gets a different class of passenger than coach, and many
professionals are willing to pay extra to not be surrounded by college
students, families with young children, tourists, etc. On my one Acela
trip, I marveled about how _nearly every person_ on the train looked
like the "frequent flyers" I'm used to seeing make up only a quarter or
so of a typical domestic flight.
Also, many corporate travel policies are written so that the
least-expensive class of service on a given flight/train is required. I
suspect this is why there is no coach on Acela: if there were, most
people on expense accounts couldn't use business class and Amtrak would
lose all that incremental revenue.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
JaxGoogle
is a crap shoot as far as traffic & accident delays are concerned.
I've had
experience where my auto trips to visit our son (Residing west of
Baltimore) have been subject to delays of more than an hour.
Fortunately, the major construction on the I-695 Baltimore beltway is
almost complete, so you will catch a break there.
I have resorted to taking the Regionals to WAS and then the MARC
Brunswick line northwest to Frederick. It's just not worth the
agida anymore on I-95.
On Dec 11, 12:38 am, Stephen Sprunk <step...@sprunk.org> wrote:
> Bolwerk wrote:
> > Steven M. O'Neill wrote:
danny burstein
[snip]
>Amtrak is different from airlines in two BIG ways. For starters,
>there's no discount for roundtrip. Secondly, the price actually goes
>DOWN the longer you wait, assuming they have space.
Airlines do have a quasi stanby "last minute fare". But it's
a lot harder to get ahold of these, even in today's internet
days with "real time" ticketing access, than in the Good Old Daze.
(Back then you could physically stay at the airport and,
if they had room, you could get on board at a discount.
There was a pecking order, with military folk home on leave
getting priority over the long haireds...
- Hey, this was in the Vietnam days [with the process
lasting a bunch of years afterwards])
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Bolwerk
>> Cheap commuter trains go as far as south as Newark, Del.
>
> I put Newark, NJ to Newark, DE into Google Maps, and it says 7
> hours and 57 minutes if you start now (8:44 pm Thursday).
>
> 1:15 from Newark to Trenton on NJT; 9 minutes to transfer to a
> SEPTA R7; 47 mins to 30th Street; 4 hours, 24 mins. to make the
> transfer to an R7; and 55 mins. to Newark. Then you can
> walk for 19 minutes to Main Street, which Google apparently
> considers "Newark, DE".
>
> If I tell Google I want to arrive at 8 am tomorrow, it is only
> 4 hours 10 minutes.
>
> (This trip is an hour and 36 minutes on Amtrak, but there's only
> one train a day that stops in Newark, DE, apparently.)
>
> There are also Wilmington city buses that go to Newark from
> Wilmington train station. Those should take about an hour, but
> there are a lot more trains (Amtrak and probably SEPTA too, that
> stop there.)
You could take an Amtrak to 30th St. and then transfer to a Newark
[DE]-bound commuter train though, right?
Bolwerk
IIRC, the bus station is right at Newark Penn Station. I've picked
people up there.
Peter T. Daniels
> As a side note, any transportation that uses I-95 (your car or a bus)
> is a crap shoot as far as traffic & accident delays are concerned.
> I've had
> experience where my auto trips to visit our son (Residing west of
> Baltimore) have been subject to delays of more than an hour.
> Fortunately, the major construction on the I-695 Baltimore beltway is
> almost complete, so you will catch a break there.
>
> I have resorted to taking the Regionals to WAS and then the MARC
> Brunswick line northwest to Frederick. It's just not worth the
> agida anymore on I-95.
I've driven to Washington four or five times over the past ten or
twelve years and never had a problem (I don't hit the big cities at
rush hour).
Steven M. O'Neill
Yes. There are only 8 SEPTA trains a day to Newark (DE),
though, and those are only during weekday rush hours.
(You'd think there'd be some college student demand to go to
Philadelphia on the weekends, but I guess not enough.)
Steven M. O'Neill
>Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>You could take an Amtrak to 30th St. and then transfer to a Newark
>>[DE]-bound commuter train though, right?
>
>Yes. There are only 8 SEPTA trains a day to Newark (DE),
>though, and those are only during weekday rush hours.
You could also take Amtrak to Wilmington, and take one of the
SEPTA trains from there.
Jimmy
> Amtrak is different from airlines in two BIG ways. For starters,
> there's no discount for roundtrip.
The discount airlines don't charge extra for one-way flights, and the
legacy airlines have matched that policy on routes where they compete.
> Secondly, the price actually goes
> DOWN the longer you wait, assuming they have space.
That's the opposite of my experience. When I was travelling from
Route 128 to Providence, I didn't bother to buy an $11 ticket in
advance. When I got to the station, the price was $15, and the agent
said the price went up because it wasn't an advance purchase. The
train was mostly empty.
(That was the only time I've taken Amtrak in the last 10 years, since
I usually travel between cities that have discount bus services that
charge one fourth to one seventh the price, and are far more frequent
and often slightly faster than the train.)
Jimmy
Jimmy
That's the problem with taking a bus from a smaller city -- you have
to take a local that stops at all the smaller cities. A big advantage
of trains is that they can make a lot of intermediate stops at
downtown stations without wasting a lot of time.
Their station locator says they stop at Newark Penn Station.
Jimmy
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> A couple years ago I went to one session of the Society for Biblical
> Literature in Philadelphia (at an immense convention center next to
> the main sunken highway?) -- parked on the street a few blocks away --
> on a Sunday evening in November. No problem in either direction.
That was one trip.
Traffic jams sometimes are predictable, but sometimes are not. The
point is that that corridor has very heavy traffic and there is a
significant risk of jams. I've been caught in enough of them.
(Hint: Get to know US 40 in Maryland as an alternate to I-95).
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> (Back then you could physically stay at the airport and,
> if they had room, you could get on board at a discount.
> There was a pecking order, with military folk home on leave
> getting priority over the long haireds...
>
> - Hey, this was in the Vietnam days [with the process
> lasting a bunch of years afterwards])
I flew under that once to/from Detroit. Not a big destination, plenty
of empty seats. Northwest was informal and allowed me to board
promptly. United, in contrast, practically made me wait until the
plane taxied down the runway even though it was clear there was plenty
of room.
Stephen Sprunk
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:37:52 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Two weeks in advance gets you the $48 one way. I am not, however,
>> going one way, and surely a round trip is significantly less? I would
>> like to see a display of all the possible rates, not randomly type
>> departure times into the form and see what comes up.
>
> there's no discount for roundtrip.
Ever? Really? If so, I'd bet it's because they aren't allowed to
discount the tickets deeply enough; those weekend round-trip discount
fares the airlines offer can be as little as 1/10th the price of the
one-way full fare, but that's illegal for Amtrak to do.
> Secondly, the price actually goes DOWN the longer you wait, assuming
> they have space.
I've seen the same happen with airlines many times, i.e. when they have
a few seats left <24 hours before a flight departs and they're desperate
to get _any_ revenue for filling them. It's not something you should
count on, though.
(My company's travel manager gets on my case several times per year for
buying tickets last-minute, which is a violation of company policy, but
most of the time I pay _less_ than the 7-day advance purchase fare. I
have a lot of experience gaming AA's fare system, and I've gotten pretty
good at it, though I do occasionally lose.)
Stephen Sprunk
> In <qdr4i554ujp184jvt...@4ax.com> Cyrus Afzali <pns...@lnubb.pbz> writes:
> Airlines do have a quasi stanby "last minute fare". But it's
> a lot harder to get ahold of these, even in today's internet
> days with "real time" ticketing access, than in the Good Old Daze.
It is _very_ tough to take advantage of this unless your timing is
impeccable, your plans are flexible, and you have frequent flier status
with that airline.
> (Back then you could physically stay at the airport and,
> if they had room, you could get on board at a discount.
> There was a pecking order, with military folk home on leave
> getting priority over the long haireds...
Those "standby fares" are long gone. Today, if you want to get on the
standby list, you have to pay the applicable fare and then get in
line--behind several dozen to several hundred other people also trying
to get on the same flight. Priority is given to anyone whose ticketed
flight was canceled due to mechanical problem or weather, then frequent
fliers (in descending level of status), then non-rev employees, then
everyone else; they rarely get down to that last part of the list unless
the flight is virtually empty, in which case they probably would have
canceled it (and parked the plane at the gate for several hours) unless
it's the last one of the night. Even with Platinum status on AA, my
experience with trying to fly standby hasn't been very good in the last
five years. A random tourist? If you get on, buy a lottery ticket
because it's your lucky day.
(Things were different 5-10 years ago; I'd make standby virtually every
time I attempted it, and even the tourists would often make it.)
J.R.Guthrie
>>>there's no discount for roundtrip. Secondly, the price actually goes
>>>DOWN the longer you wait, assuming they have space.
There's a third big way -- Republicans in Congress decided to pass a law a
few years back restricting Amtrak from dropping fares below 50% of the full
fare. They have passed no such law restricting airline )or bus) fares.
That's because no one n the GOP believes Amtrak should run like a
business -- only to sabatoge any effort to runb it as a business.
But the bigger issue remains that passenger transportation -- being run by
government agencies -- cannot lobby in the same way as private enterprise
operations. So the pigs at the trough in, for example, consulting firms can
(and do) loby for things that will gain them profits. FRA rules are but one
manifestation. Throw in the oil and highway lobby doing numbers on public
transport -- and it's a wonder that anything can be built at all.
Cheers,
Jim Guthrie
Peter Schleifer
<jgut...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>There's a third big way -- Republicans in Congress decided to pass a law a
>few years back restricting Amtrak from dropping fares below 50% of the full
>fare. They have passed no such law restricting airline )or bus) fares.
I read that provision is repealed in one of the bills moving through
Congress now, at least as far as it affects commuter discounts on the
NEC.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself"