Theodicy, Again

[Michael]

The following is a letter I sent to Dennis this evening. The letter
was motivated by a caller during the 3rd hour whose daughter had
committed suicide.
-----------------------------------
Dear Dennis,

I'm not quite sure why you see the existence of evil or injustice as
contrary to the existence of a good and beneficent God. I argue that
the existence of these horrors should be expected.

Suppose you were God and wanted to create beings similar to you that
you could love and would love you in return. With what would you imbue
your creation to insure that their love for you was not the love of
sycophants or the coerced adulation of slaves?

The answer, I believe, is free will. However, you recognize that free
will gives rise to a significant problem, vis, that unfettered by
ethics, free will devolves into a license for hedonism, narcissism,
and materialism. So, in addition to imbuing your creation with free
will, you give them a set of ethical obligations that they may choose
(or choose not) to obey.

So far so good.

Next, you would have to create a world/universe in which their free
will can be exercised, i.e., a world that presents your creation with
choices, sometimes difficult choices -- Choices between life and
death, good and evil, right and wrong, justice and injustice. So you
create mankind in your image equipped from the outset with reason and
a moral compass. You set him in a world full of pain and joy; a world
in which trials and temptation abound.

As a loving God you are pained by what your creations must endure. You
rail at them. You punish them. Through your prophets you exhort them
and plead with them and are, more often than not, deeply disappointed.
Still, you know that to love requires freedom. Like the bird that must
be set free from his cage hopefully to return, mankind must be free
such that in the face of overwhelming tragedy and injustice they
return to you.

I would argue that the existence of good and evil, justice and
injustice, temptation, pleasure, pain are not only consistent with a
good and gracious God, but are evidence that He wishes for us to be
with him.

May the Lord Be With You

Michael
Sammamish, WA

Cheers,
Often Wrong, Never in Doubt
http://themoralchristian.blogspot.com

[THOMAS MOFFITT]

Hi
 
 I'm trying to figure out what you heard Dennis say that you felt suggested that he imagines that "the existence of evil or injustice as contrary to the existence of a good and beneficent God."
 
 I went back and listened to the call you refer to from the third hour of Friday's program and I don't hear Dennis implying any such thing.
 
 Here is his reponse to the woman who's daughter committed suicide;
 
 
"God allows people to do the wrong thing."
"There's a Rabbi, Milton Steinberg, who I quoted when I debated at the American Atheists Convention a few weeks ago and he said something that has been very powerful in my life;
 'Those who believe in God have to confront, have to answer or explain, one thing and that is the existence of unjust suffering.
 The Atheist has to explain the existence of everything else'.
 But we do. And I have finally concluded that I can't.
 And I think that's what God says at the end of the book Job...we just can't know.
 Asking me to understand God's ways is like asking my dog to understand physics. It's just not available to us.
 What you seek in God is comfort now.
 But intervention...you can't put God in this trap 'If you don't intervene I will be alienated from you'.
 It's almost not fair to God, let alone all the other people he allowed to suffer."
 
 I find Dennis' response to be perfectly in keeping with the message in Job, that we cannot always understand the ways of God and so must trust him as the creator even when we do not fully comprehend him, as well as the words found in Isaiah 55:8;
 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord”
 
 
 Have a great day.
 
Tom M.
Vancouver WA
 
 


> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:26:11 -0700
> Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Theodicy, Again
> From: mtp...@gmail.com
> To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com

[Michael Peterson]

Theodicy (Merriam-Webster Online) : Defense of God's goodness and omnipotence in view of the existence of evil.

Dennis's response to her call was an example of Theodicy. Dennis has often puzzled on-air about Theodicy, even admitting that he has no good explanation. He has had at least one ultimate issues hour devoted to Theodicy. I know, because I was able to call in and discuss it with him.

The statement to which you are responding is, upon second reading, inartful. My reference to the particular call to which you referring would have been better characterized had I wrote that "Dennis's response to her call was an example of Theodicy."

Cheers,

Michael

[THOMAS MOFFITT]

Thanks for the response!
 
 By the way;
 You wouldn't by any chance know approximately when that particular Ultimate Issues hour aired would you?
 If you can give me an idea of what month it was in I might be able to find it in my archives and listen to it.
 I fall behind on the show sometimes and have to catch up later and I would be very interested in hearing the hour on this particular topic.
 
 Thank you
 
Tom M.

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Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:36:39 -0700
From: mtp...@gmail.com
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: Theodicy, Again

[matthew Robinson]

Hello Thomas,

 

The hour that you are looking for is from March 24th. In his usual style, Dennis takes a very fair look at the provability, or unprovability of God. I recommend that you also get the ultimate issues hour from March 17th and listen to it first, as some of the subject matter from the March 24th hour is built off of his discussion with Bart Ehrman, found here. I use itunes to podcast the show as the radio stations here do not Carry it, and find that to be the easiest way to find past shows.

 

I look forward to meeting you all sometime soon at one of the upcoming meet-ups.

 

-Matthew

 

[James Eisenhut]

Are we going to have an in person meeting this sunday?  apr 27                 James  Eisenhut

---

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[Steven R. Goodman]

Hi,

I am a new member and my Discussion Group membership is pending.

I would be interested in attending a meeting this Sunday 4/27 pending time and location?

Thanks,

Steve Goodman

 

 

From: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of James Eisenhut

Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:25 PM
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com

[dian...@aol.com]

Steve,

I'm also new and got your email but don't know where or when the meeting is.  Do you?
Diane Ruff

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven R. Goodman <srg...@comcast.net>
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 6:45 pm
Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: meeting this sunday 4-27

Hi,

I am a new member and my Discussion Group membership is pending.

I would be interested in attending a meeting this Sunday 4/27 pending time and location?

Thanks,

Steve Goodman

 

 

From: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of James Eisenhut
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:25 PM
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: meeting this sunday 4-27

 

Are we going to have an in person meeting this sunday?  apr 27                 James  Eisenhut

 

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[dian...@aol.com]

James,

I'm new to group and don't know where or when the group is meeting this weekend.  Do you?
Diane

-----Original Message-----
From: James Eisenhut <bravehe...@yahoo.com>
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 4:24 pm
Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: meeting this sunday 4-27

[Michael]

How many would be interested in meeting on the Eastside, this time
(e.g., 4/27)?

Cheers,
Michael

On Apr 23, 9:13 pm, dianek...@aol.com wrote:
> James,
>

> I'm new to group and don't know where or when the group is meeting this weekend.? Do you?

> Diane
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Eisenhut <braveheart9...@yahoo.com>
> To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 4:24 pm
> Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: meeting this sunday 4-27
>

> ??????????? Are we going to have an in person meeting this sunday?? apr 27
> ?
> ????????????? James? Eisenhut

[matthew Robinson]

By eastside, do you mean eastside of the mountains?

 

-Matthew

 

[David Lund]

I'd love to, I can't this Sunday though. :-(

David

[dian...@aol.com]

Michael,
Meeting on the Eastside of what?  I'm on the Peninsula but would be happy to take either the Edmonds, or Bremerton
 ferry over.  Diane 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael <mtp...@gmail.com>
To: Northwest Washington Dennis Prager Discussion Group <nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 9:32 pm
Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: meeting this sunday 4-27

How many would be interested in meeting on the Eastside, this time
(e.g., 4/27)?

Cheers,
Michael

On Apr 23, 9:13 pm, dianek...@aol.com wrote:
> James,
>
> I'm new to group and don't know where or when the group is meeting this 
weekend.? Do you?
> Diane
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Eisenhut <braveheart9...@yahoo.com>
> To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 4:24 pm
> Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] Re: meeting this sunday 4-27
>
> ??????????? Are we going to have an in person meeting this sunday?? apr 27
> ?
> ????????????? James? Eisenhut
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[David Lund]

I'm sure Michael means the Eastside of Lake Washington, i.e. Bellevue, Redmond, Kirkland, Issaquah, etc.

That's what we who live on the Eastside call it. :-)   

DJL

[Daniel Crandall]

I see below that Michael is asking who would be interested in meeting on the Eastside. I, for one, would. I think the best way to go about it is simply choose a place and time and let people of come who can make it.

If there is not a proposed Eastside location, day and time before say Friday evening then let the Third Place Books Pub in Ravenna, on Sunday, at 3pm, serve as the backup.

BTW, the bartender asked me about the group and commented that it was interesting to see a group that takes on topics from a perspective different than the typical Left-wing one.

Take care,
Daniel

[Vivian Evans]

I'm new to the group and live on the Eastside (Bellevue).  What time will the meeting be?  I'm a musician and will be singing at 12:30 pm and 7 pm but could get together between 2 and 5 pm if we met in Bellevue/Kirkland.  Cheers - Vivian

---

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:34:52 -0700
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
From: da...@thelunds.us
Subject: [nw-dennis-prager-discussions] meeting this sunday 4-27

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[Daniel Crandall]

Vivian,

How about proposing a venue in Bellevue, where we can meet at, say, 2pm. Otherwise the Third Place Books Pub in Ravenna meeting happens at 3pm. If you can't come up with anything, then I hope to see you on Sunday at 3.

Regarding meeting on the East side of Lake Washington (not East of the Cascades, sorry), instead of just talking about it, someone set a time, day and venue. Any coffee place where some tables can be pushed together will do.

Daniel

[rick eskenazi]

For the new people  ( and old who have never attended), please give directions and address of the Pub in Ravenna. Rick

---

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:22:46 -0700
From: dpcra...@gmail.com
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com

[Vivian Evans]

Crossroads Shopping Center (156th & NE 8th in Bellevue - lots of free parking) has a large open area with tables that can be moved together, there's a Starbucks right there, various restaurants - people often use it for meetings.  I don't think it would be too noisy on a Sunday.  Since I'm singing again in the evening, making it to Ravenna probably won't work for me.  Is anyone interested in Crossroads at 2 pm?  If not I'll try to make a future meeting - cheers from Vivian

---

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:22:46 -0700
From: dpcra...@gmail.com
To: nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com