What's Wrong With the CNVC
Parenthesis Eye
I found out about this group today, and I really have been enjoying
the quality of discussion here. There seems to be a kind of depth,
critical awareness and level of honesty in this group that I find
quite refreshing and invigorating.
I do feel uneasy, however, with what I perceive as there being enemy
images of the CNVC. I do see the CNVC as having done many different
things that have not met people's needs, but I am afraid of that being
translated into ideas of them being a "domination structure", "old
guard", etc. I really want them to be seen as real-life human beings
doing the best they can to meet needs.
I have an evaluation & analysis to share about them, the CNVC, which
perhaps can help foster more compassion and understanding for them. I
also have some unsolicited advice, name-calling, as well as harsh
judgmental language. So please brace yourself:
I honestly think that they do not know what they are doing.
At the same time, I don't think that the rest of us, the "hip",
"emerging", "evolvers", are that much better off either. I think that
NVC is so new, so radical, that pretty much all of us are making
things up as we go along.
So, what leads me to have this evaluation of the CNVC? Well, from the
very beginning, with my very first conversation with someone deeply
involved with the CNVC organization, I given the personal advice of:
"Don't get involved with this organization, it will eat you alive."
After that, I have talked with others heavily involved with the CNVC,
and have come across similar sentiment.
I then attended a couple of days of the CNVC board meeting in November
2004 in Petaluma, California, where I got to see some of the
functioning of the CNVC in-person. There, I was amazed to see so much
confusion, frustration, pain, and discontent among most everyone
there, that I seriously wondered how the organization was able to stay
together.
Since then, I have come across a number of other stories of chaos and
confusion within the CNVC, particularly in the certification program
and the IT department.
I think that a number of different factors contribute to all of this.
One of them, is what was referred to at the board meeting as "the
Marshall warp", meaning, when NVCers attempted to have a working
relationship around Marshall, their clear judgment, ability to say
'no', and think independently was often warped. This is because that
man is the charismatic demagogue of our little scene, the reason why
many (if not most) of us are here to begin with, therefore it becomes
difficult to be aware of and overcome urges to please.
I spent a few months last year with a volunteer group in New Orleans
focused around a charismatic leader, so I know first-hand how this
kind of "warping" of working relationships within an organization can
occur. Similar to the CNVC, I think that most people involved, both
the leaders and the followers, had all the best of intentions and a
sincere desire for a new society. However, in both cases it appears as
if the organizational structure of king, queen, regent, and royal
court was established, as opposed to an egalitarian, collective,
mutually-respectful, such-and-such organization. I don't think that
anyone is to "blame" for this, I think that it is all deeply
entrenched habits, patterns, and conditioning that we all have, living
in the world that we do.
Another thing that I think contributes to these difficulties is the
lack of transparency. Those of us not inside the organization, or who
don't have secret informants smuggling out information, are left
totally clue-less about what the hell is actually going on, and why. I
think that if there were more transparency, there could be more
understanding, as well as more ease in constructing new concrete
doable strategies to offer to help which would applicable to and
effective with what is actually going on.
This last point then dove-tails with another problem - lack of clear,
specific, doable proposals that could help. It is easy to talk about
big dreams, vague visions, horrible problems, or deep emotional
processing, but when it comes to spelling out step-by-step what "heart-
connected evolving partnership organization" actually *looks like* and
how it is done exactly in the real world, I think that we all find
that to be tremendously hard. And I think that that is what the people
behind the CNVC have been struggling with, and what Jim was getting at
when he asked for a definition of "domination structure" on this
list.
I think that the people behind the CNVC really do believe in what they
say about creating new heat-felt partnership organizations, and having
the CNVC be a vanguard model for that. I have witnessed first-hand
countless tears and emotional processing by people involved with the
CNVC, that I am convinced of the sincerity of their devotion to this.
I think that what can be perceived as "defensiveness" on the part of
CNVC people is behavior motivated by a desire to be seen for all the
enormous effort and energy that they have put into having the CNVC be
a manifestation of their dreams. And it *can* be a lot of effort -
just the couple days that I was at the board meeting was emotionally
exhausting for me - imagine that being your life!
I do see it as being worthwhile for us NVC junkies to continue having
interactive working relationships with the CNVC. If for no other
reason, than the fact that it is them who has the collective attention
of most people who have any degree of interest in what we call "NVC".
Having the collective attention of people is a tremendously valuable
resource, I believe, for fostering inter-connection, awareness,
creativity, collaboration, unity, and other needs. I think that one of
the biggest problems facing the world today is scattered attention
(both individually & collectively), and people operating in isolation
from one-another. As fucked-up as the CNVC may be, they have achieved
a large degree of collective attention, and that is something to be
cherished.
As far as what to do for there to be more mutual understanding,
improvement, and movement, I have a bunch of ideas...
The radical folk singer Utah Phillips once said: "'The earth is not
dying. It is being killed, and the people killing it have names and
addresses." Similarly, I would say that - "The CNVC is not a
domination structure. There are a number of people relating in
domination ways, and these people have names and addresses."
Here are some of the names and addresses of these people:
http://cnvc.org/en/about-us/governance/governance
and
http://cnvc.org/en/about-us/contact-staff/cnvc-staff
I recommend reaching out and having direct conversations with these
people, to foster more clarity, mutual understanding, and a spirit of
collaboration.
I plan on doing a bunch of traveling this year, and would be into
planning a road-trip with some of you to go down to Albuquerque in-
person to have these conversations. I find that in-person
conversations tend to lend themselves towards more easily seeing the
humanity in people. For example, I think that my having met Jim in
person has helped me more easily see him as a person, instead of as
some AI robot programmed to defend the CNVC and speak NVC-
language. ;-)
I also think that it can be tremendously helpful to get really clear
on specific doable things that specific people in the CNVC, or
yourself, can do to help move things forward. When asked for what I
would like to see when I was at the board meeting, I essentially said
"y'all are fucked up. I want anarchy." Not that helpful. I really
appreciate Conal for taking the time to get clear and specific with
his "Emergence" proposal (http://emergence.awakeningcompassion.com/).
Likewise, I appreciate the GCC people having taken the time to create
this template to facilitate the ease and clarity of new proposals:
http://cnvc.org/en/community/global-community/proposal-template/proposal-template
What specifically do we all want here? No, really, WHAT DO WE WANT? I
can spout wonderful inspiring rhetoric with the best of them, but it
is really hard for me to answer that question deeply in concrete
detailed language. I figure that once we are able to do that better
and with more ease, then we will have a lot more power.
And that's exciting to me.
I'd love feed-back, from anyone, on whatever the hell comes up for
you, reading any or all of this. :-)
In lib,
(I)
P.S. I hope that ya'll can see the subject-line of this e-mail as
short-hand, a joke, and a call to inquiry
Emma McCreary
Reading you feeling uneasy about the enemy images you are seeing here
of CVNC, I feel intrigued and happy. I agree, I am concerned about
that as well. I also want everybody to be seen as a real life human
being, and deal with real-life human beings, rather than my images of
them or the groups they are involved in. I am excited about Jim being
here and us getting to dialog so that these kinds of images can be
dispelled.
Wow, I feel surprised hearing about your observations of how CNVC has
functioned. Sounds like a mess! It does bring some clarity around
something I observed once though. Marshall was in town doing a
training and I went to see him with a friend. We both noticed with
some concern how Marshall didn't seem, well, very happy. He seemed
pained or something, not at all how we imagined him. We wondered if he
was bored of teaching. He seemed sad or tired. I've wondered whether
his needs were getting met by being the head of this organization, and
why they wouldn't be? Wouldn't he just ask for things he wanted, make
clear requests? How could the founder of NVC not be completely happy
and have all his needs met in extraordinary ways after all this time?
That puzzled me. I didn't go up and have a conversation with him about
it so I didn't get a reality check on it. But hearing more bits of the
puzzle, I am even more intrigued. I have this urge to go talk to him
just so I can give him the gift of being treated like a normal person.
I imagine it is hard to in the center of the "Marshall warp", because
people wouldn't show up authentically around you. I would hate that!
Anyway. I don't feel inspired to purposely go to "have conversations"
with people at CNVC, because I'm not inspired to try to lobby for CNVC
changing. I like Utah Phillips a lot, but that sense of "us" vs "those
guys killing the Earth/NVC" is not inspiring to me. I'd rather just
offer feedback when I encounter CNVC, about what works or doesn't for
me, interact when it comes up, but I don't want to go on a mission to
change them. I do like having conversations though and am very happy
to connect with people when that happens naturally, ie if the CNVC
person was also interested. I guess I'm saying I want to be inspired
from the heart to have a conversation with someone, not have a
conversation just to try to change their mind. That would feel icky
for both of us I imagine.
I am enjoying discussing it here and would be happy to see more people
from CNVC join the conversation. It sounds like there is a lot of
healing that could happen within CNVC and between CNVC and the larger
NVC community! I see a lot of opportunity. And I'm also content for it
to unfold naturally. I feel like these discussions are key steps
forward.
I feel torn about your idea of getting specific with "what do we
want". I feel caution come up because from my understanding of NVC,
strategies arise much more naturally after the needs are understood
and heard by the people involved. I'm not sure if that idea applies
here.
But if it helps, here are some things off the top of my head:
1. Remove the "Guidelines for sharing NVC" from the website and burn
any copies in existence (JOKING). Replace it with lots of information
about how to teach NVC, potential pitfalls, things to watch out for ie
"doing NVC" vs "being NVC". Create a detailed online repository of all
the best practices in teaching NVC. Instead of telling people what not
to do, offer people all the resources they could want in how to teach
NVC clearly and cleanly. Make it WIKI format of some kind so it easy
for people to add to and expand it.
2. Scrap the whole certification process. Instead of presenting
'here's the official and only valid way to learn and teach NVC',
present on the website all the various ways people have learned NVC
and begun to teach NVC that anyone is aware of. For instance what
about apprenticeships? Create some template documents and information
about how that might look. I'm imagining a website where I can go and
learn about NVC apprenticeships, find some suggestions on what to
think about when choosing who to do it with, what that might look
like, and some documents with some structure I could give to my chosen
mentor so they have some direction in how to help me learn how to
teach, and also I could connect with half a dozen other people who had
done apprenticeships so I could interview them for more information. I
would love that! It would meet my needs for information, learning,
efficiency, and provide me an abundance of strategies to meet my
needs.
More info I'd like to see:
All the different kinds of practice-groups and teaching groups people
have created. A repository of models and information. Provide info on
how people are integrating NVC into other modalities and workshops and
gropus and lives. Create a public repository that any one can add
their name to and information about what they are doing with NVC so
anyone wanting more information on, say, NVC in hospitals, knows who
to contact.
Provide all this free and publicly on the website. This changes the
focus from evaluation/gatekeeping to supporting all the diverse ways
people might learn and teach NVC. We can learn from each other! That's
what I'd love to see - a diverse learning community where all our
differences are honored and celebrated and shared and we all benefit
from that.
Whew, that *was* exciting! Thanks for asking for this reflection!
Emma
Niklas Wilkens
I would like to add some things. First I feel excited as well having this discussion. I especially like (I)'s pointing out of the enemy images and what we miss when we stick to that. Emma's ideas about what to do specifically sound very inspiring to me and are in harmony with a lot of needs like mine, not the least of it would be trust. If CNVC could be that open, providing the information you mentioned, Emma, it would also show, that there is a consciousness of abundance rather than scarcity. I would find that inspiring.
Concerning Marshall I made the same observations as Emma when he was in Berlin. What was resonating with me was fatigue, boredom, sadness maybe, seeing his facial expression. I had the opportunity to be with him in his room during a break and I regret deeply not to have asked how he actually was. I was rather sucked into the "Marshall-warp" and felt nervous, because beside this man my self-importance went away. And how sad this is, because it deprives him of the authentic connection.
I too like to come to requests by first checking in with every need that's present. At the same time I'm uneasy with this, because I'm not sure that I can always do it as quickly as I would like. For this I like to have a kind of draft, which outlines specifically what I want. One can work from there and change it, but at least it's specific and concrete. Vague ideas don't inspire, in my opinion. Everybody can fill them with his or her own conception, but they don't open up concrete possibilities. And the possibilities are inspiring the courage to actually do something about it. So that's where I would like to focus on here.
I also long for a diverse learning community. Like I already said before, connection becomes interesting when the vision is the same and the skills are different. I would like the NVC-community be made up by people who all have something else to contribute.
I hope this is a contribution, comments are welcome.
Warmly
Niklas
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nvctrainer
I have read both your response below to (I), and the one in response
to my "What is a Domination System" post. I feel touched and grateful
for the words you have provided me, the glimpse into your inner life.
At the risk of sounding like an NVC robot, your posting met my need
for intimacy and connection.
I wish I had more resouces to engage in these threads. I can imagine
the fun and connection of responding to every post, and every
paragraph within every post! I mourn the tough choices I'm making in
the moment to manage my time during this IIT, and in my life in
general.
I feel particularly moved by your suggestions concerning the
guidelines and certification. I'd like to hear how some of CNVC's
trainers would respond to your ideas, and I'd like to hear how you
would feel about me posting those two paragraphs on the trainer and
cert trainer candidates yahoo groups. I'd be happy to include your
name if you would like, or to keep it anonymous. I'm guessing your
ideas would stimulate a "rat in the punch bowl" effect and contribute
to a lot of learning and interaction as the trainer team has wrestled
with some of these issues for years. I intend to respond more fully
to these suggestions.
I feel happy that the GCC and CNVC Information Technology circle has
taken on some of what you and others have suggested in your paragraphs
under "More info i'd like to see". I feel confident that the "grass-
roots" of the NVC network, including this group, actually holds a big
piece to both "preserving and protecting" NVC for the benefit of
future generations and "evolving" and "freeing" it. I long to foster
more sharing of information, more resources, and especially more
transparency. These have been guiding principles as we have worked to
plan and implement the GCC.
By the way, we have intended for the processes and procedures of the
GCC to be transparent and available to all and have included observers
in all of our meetings. For info on the GCC, you can join or observe
our google group: http://groups.google.com/group/cnvcgcc I feel
pleased connecting with the international cast of characters that
participates there. And in the "English-speaking" western world, you
can watch the struggles of birthing a new, grass-roots life-serving
organization: http://groups.google.com/group/ewcircle
Jori and I also offer our own website, radicalcompassion.com There we
"give away" what has been so freely given to us through Marshall's
work, CNVC and about 3 dozen trainers that have deeply nourished me.
There, you can find recordings of practice groups, hand outs, and
practices that we urge you to try, modify, make your own and give away
to others.
Finally, I hope in another post soon to respond to some of what you
have written, Emma, about my own experience of both "the warp" and
getting involved with leadership within CNVC. It has been an eye-
opening, mind-altering, heart-opening and heart-breaking experience.
And, really finally, I feel so grateful for your willingness to
express how you see me as human, as doing the best I can to support my
vision of contributing to a world where everyone's needs matter and
where they can be met reliably. I look forward to hearing your
responses to all of my requests, but mostly I wonder how you feel
reading my gratitude.
More later,
Warmly,
Jim
Emma McCreary
Ooh, I feel delighted reading this. I'm smiling and glad that I could
offer compassion for you as a human being in a way that met your
needs. =) Yay! Feels great!
I also feel very grateful for the opportunity to connect personally
with you here, it has greatly helped me dissolve my enemy imagery of
CNVC that I was starting to build, and replace it with a more complex
and compassionate picture. =)
Reading your response here, your gratitude, your heart-longing to
create a peaceful world, and hearing of your struggle with balancing
your time, and your own journey within CNVC and how it has been
complex, rewarding, and "heart-breaking" - my needs for connection are
also met as I get to see you as a full and complex human (like me!).
I'm celebrating our mutual desire to contribute to a world "where
everyone's needs matter and where they can be met reliably". Yes!
Hearing about GCC's work to be transparent, and your own website and
how you "give away" and encourage people to adopt and modify and work
with what you present, I feel excited. That's exactly what I want for
CNVC! It feels viscerally different than the vibe I get from, say,
this page:
http://cnvc.org/en/sharing-nvc/guidelines-sharing-nvc
I would love it if my suggestions were included in the other yahoo
groups and started a discussion. I would be happiest if my name and a
reference to this group and the thread here were included, so people
could follow it and find the entire discussion. I'm guessing they
might want to if they were wanting more context, to hear more peoples
voices in the discussion, or wanted to connect with me and/or the
needs behind my suggestions more fully.
I'd also be delighted to read more of your experience with the "warp"
and being involved in the leadership within CNVC if/when you are
inspired to share!
Cheers,
Emma
Bhupinder
Somewhere, I read your suggestions of what could be put on a CNVC
website that would be helpful to people sharing NVC with others. I
felt relieved and happy to see those suggestions, i.e. what challenges
come up when people share NVC and how to deal with them, people
sharing information of what has been effective for them etc, instead
of the guidelines of how to teach NVC and guidelines for becoming nvc
trainer. These suggestion that were given gave me hope and
understanding...
And I enjoyed the article by Carol Rogers on professionlism, i.e. I
have had many experiences of people who were my teachers or professor
with much education, i.e. M.ed, Phd, etc. and they were, in my
experience not competent to teach and I felt very frustrated....so
this article also gave me hope.
Bhupinder
Dori
This is Dori from Vancouver,
This is the first time I popped into this website to see what was
going on. Talk about coincidence!
I was just about to compose a long-thought-about letter to the GCC
about concerns I've had about how I've seen NVC "manifesting" in the
world.
Part of it was the lack of transparency (I too have heard comments
from people involved that speak of pain and frustration and needs not
met). I've seen a split between "business" and "process" (i.e. not
dealing with feelings and needs when talking about 'tasks'), and I
watched the split between CNVC and Puddledancer occur with no comments
made etc.
I was hoping that by writing to the GCC I could get a conversation
started; I've felt very lonely in this and have really wanted someone
to hear what I was saying - with giraffe ears.
So that's why I'm so glad to have popped in at this time.
I'm not writing more right now. I have a major headache, and don't
want to strain my thinking cells any more that this. But I really
wanted to add my two cents.
In hope,
Dori
Niklas Wilkens
I hope your headache goes away soon. I'm glad you keep the conversation going. Now, that you mention it, I notice that I too have a need for transparency and clarity not being met concerning the GCC and CNVC. At the same time I'm aware of invitations to teleconferences and I never attended one as an observer. I have this jackal that I might be disturbing things or be required to do something I don't want... actually it's a jackal about "official meetings" and that I have no space there, because nobody would be open to my contribution. That I'd have to prove something before I'd be trusted. So there's a need for openness and space, to be seen with my resources and contribution. I could put that to the test, actually...
I want to share this in order to check, whether you or somebody else in the group shares this. Looking forward to replies.
Greetings
Niklas
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT)
> Von: Dori <can_...@yahoo.com>
> An: NVC Evolves <nvc-e...@googlegroups.com>
> Betreff: Re: What\'s Wrong With the CNVC
>
> Hi Bupinder and everyone,
>
> This is Dori from Vancouver,
>
> This is the first time I popped into this website to see what was
> going on. Talk about coincidence!
>
> I was just about to compose a long-thought-about letter to the GCC
> about concerns I've had about how I've seen NVC "manifesting" in the
> world.
>
> Part of it was the lack of transparency (I too have heard comments
> from people involved that speak of pain and frustration and needs not
> met). I've seen a split between "business" and "process" (i.e. not
> dealing with feelings and needs when talking about 'tasks'), and I
> watched the split between CNVC and Puddledancer occur with no comments
> made etc.
>
> I was hoping that by writing to the GCC I could get a conversation
> started; I've felt very lonely in this and have really wanted someone
> to hear what I was saying - with giraffe ears.
>
> So that's why I'm so glad to have popped in at this time.
> I'm not writing more right now. I have a major headache, and don't
> want to strain my thinking cells any more that this. But I really
> wanted to add my two cents.
>
> In hope,
> Dori
--
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Conal Elliott
I wonder what the needs would turn out to be if we removed CNVC from the equation. And I wonder how empowering it would be to see them as an entirely dispensable strategy, even relative to spreading NVC.
Curiously, - Conal
John Mudie
Yeah, lets get into needs, needs need.
Sing along with me.
All I need are needs, sweet needs.
John
Who is needing to hear needs
Dori
Thank you for you wishes re my headache! In fact, I saw my massage
therapist later in the afternoon and my headache went away - ah,
blessed, blessed absence of pain. It's such an incredible
feeling!!!!! Such relief.
I too have thought about "attending" one of the GCC board meetings and
yet haven't. I know that fear and a huge need to be heard is part of
what has stopped me, and knowing that I can feel easily triggered in
meeting. However, the reason I want to contact them (or maybe Marshall
- because I really don't know what other people are like) is that it
was when I heard his voice on a CD that I first understood what
compassion was. I'm looking for that element of wisdom, not to say
that he doesn't have his foibles like rest of us, but I experienced,
watching him...in his tone of voice, stance, expression,...the intent
he talks about. And that is what is important to me.
You wrote:
I have this jackal that I might be disturbing things or > be required
to do something I don't want... actually it's a jackal about
> "official meetings" and that I have no space there, because nobody would be > open to my contribution. That I'd have to prove something before I'd be
> trusted. So there's a need for openness and space, to be seen with my > resources and contribution. I could put that to the test, actually...
> I want to share this in order to check, whether you or somebody else in the > group shares this. Looking forward to replies.
feelings of reluctance or worry because you really value openness,
acknowledgment, and appreciation, and being taken seriously? (Those
are my own words - but I wonder if I've got the meaning of what you're
saying). If so, yes, I have those same concerns - all the time,
actually :-)
I wonder if, together, we could try broaching some of this with the
GCC and see what happens. I think we'd need to be really clear on our
requests, though. That's what I'm trying to do right now in this
letter I'm trying to right - and I'm finding it difficult.
Dori
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>
>
>
> > Datum: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT)
Niklas Wilkens
yes! Being taken seriously! I really value that! And I'm glad I'm not alone with that.
What you say about Marshall fits my own impression and experience with him. When I first met him more than 3 years ago, and I expressed my gratitude after the lecture he gave, just the glance in his eyes, the tone of his voice, his whole posture while saying "I'm glad I could contribute" gave me such an opening to what human beings can be like. My needs for acceptance, compassion, depth in connection were deeply touched and I felt a lot of hope and joy that evening, along with a deep sadness about what I experienced so far. Once you see what's possible, you also see, what you've missed all the time.
I find it also important, to make clear requests. Actually, concerning transparency, I'd just like to know whether the people in the GCC are aware of the difficulties we have in trusting the organizational process as coming from the partnership paradigm. I recently heard from a friend, who gives trainings in NVC without being certified by CNVC, that he received an email from somebody in the network (in Germany) stating, that it was the writer's and Marshall's wish for my friend to refrain from calling himself an NVC-trainer. He is pretty upset with it, would like to talk to this person personally, but she isn't available but through email. And another story he told me was that when the certification process stopped, some people in Europe came up with the idea to start a certification process themselves, independent from CNVC. After that they saw themselves confronted with the threat of being suspended as trainers in the CNVC-network.
I'm very sad when I hear this. I had hoped that things where done differently within this community and I had a wish for support in NVC-consciousness and the partnership-paradigm coming from the network. At the same time I imagine that behind these threats and demands is a lack of energy and empathy itself. So I don't want to condemn this but get into a dialogue that makes it more likely that everybody is respected and taken care of.
I guess my request is, to first get confirmation that this is seen and understood and then hear the other side of the story.
How does that sound?
Warmly,
Niklas
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Conal Elliott
I'd hope that your German NVC trainer friend who was asked not to call himself an NVC trainer is able to respond with a light & joyful giraffe no-thanks, resting assured that the requester has many other ways of meeting needs. Perhaps the requesters would enjoy a giraffe dance. How about pointing your friend to this discussion group? Also to http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/, which has some related posts?
About the European folks who want to do their own certification: after going through the difficulty of getting cnvc star of approval (certification), I imagine it's a challenge for them to calmly sit by while cnvc withdraws its blessing. Perhaps it's easier for NVC trainers/sharers to adopt a bottom-up, peer-based (partnership-oriented) paradigm if they haven't gone through the cnvc process.
I've talked with people who want to restrict who calls themselves an NVC trainer or uses what words in their title, and I have never gotten the impression that they are aware of their needs. (Though faux needs are readily available.) If enough people declline these requests, perhaps the genuine needs will come clear, and then some powerful transformation could take place. I'd *love* to see that happen.
- Conal
Conal Elliott
- Conal
Niklas Wilkens
Thanks a lot for the delighting comment! I forgot to tell my friend that he could say "No, thanks" while being assured that the requester would have different ways to meet his needs. His worry was actually that he might get difficulties in the certification process if he doesn't comply. He is torn between letting that go and the hope that within the network he has more opportunities to contribute to social change. So that's the conflict we're dealing with. At the same time I wholeheartedly agree that the threat of suspension is exactly the kind of thing that goes with certification and that at least I don't want! Definitely not!
I told him about the group and your site, but I will give him the links so he can join in.
In joy about this conversation we're having
Niklas
--
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Conal Elliott
His worry was actually that he might get difficulties in the certification process if he doesn't comply.
Power Over is only effective when Power Under plays its part, for instance by seeking permission, striving after external validation/certification, trying to persuade, and especially, by adopting their language (such as "NVC trainer" to mean "certified by cnvc"). CNVC and its endorsements are only ideas, not tangible realities. They only have as much power as we collectively invest in them.
My recommendation to anyone wanting certification is to certify yourself, and then call yourself an "NVC trainer", even a "certified" one. Play with self-acceptance and aliveness. If someone asks whether *cnvc* certifies you, just respond "No, and I don't certify cnvc, either". Then, after you're good & comfortable with these labels, then let them go, along with all other labels on yourself and others.
- Conal
Niklas Wilkens
I'm excited about these possibilities of freeing oneself from the power-under role. I do agree on the point that CNVC loses its credibility when demanding compliance. I find it helpful to keep these things in mind, to stand up for our needs and engage in a dialogue, having this in the background. I forwarded your email to my friend and I'm looking forward to his response.
With excitement
Niklas
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:37:33 -0700
> Von: "Conal Elliott" <co...@conal.net>
> An: nvc-e...@googlegroups.com
> Betreff: Re: What\'s Wrong With the CNVC
> Thanks for this exchange, Niklas.
>
> His worry was actually that he might get difficulties in the certification
> > process if he doesn't comply.
> >
>
> If your friends worry is well-founded, then I'd like to see the NVC
> community to turn the tables and decertify CNVC. What credibility can
> CNVC
> have as speaking for NVC if they demand compliance with their "requests"?
>
> Power Over is only effective when Power Under plays its part, for instance
> by seeking permission, striving after external validation/certification,
> trying to persuade, and especially, by adopting their language (such as
> "NVC
> trainer" to mean "certified by cnvc"). CNVC and its endorsements are only
> ideas, not tangible realities. They only have as much power as we
> collectively invest in them.
>
> My recommendation to anyone wanting certification is to certify yourself,
> and then call yourself an "NVC trainer", even a "certified" one. Play
> with
> self-acceptance and aliveness. If someone asks whether *cnvc* certifies
> you, just respond "No, and I don't certify cnvc, either". Then, after
> you're good & comfortable with these labels, then let them go, along with
> all other labels on yourself and others.
>
> - Conal
John Mudie
exists is my willingness to see them as dominating.
By sitting in the front of the bus, Martha Parks showed that she didn't see
the bus system as dominating her.
J
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvc-e...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nvc-e...@googlegroups.com]
Dori
This is the first chance I've had to check in here since I wrote my
last post.
I felt really happy when I read your reply. Yes, the things you wrote
about, and the words you used seem to express values and experiences
that I share, and for me that's always a nice feeling. (Shared-values,
being heard, being understood).
It's midnight (well, 12:35, actually), and I've got to go to sleep. I
just wanted to thank you, and let you know that I'd like to reply in
more detail in a day or two.
All my best,
Dori
John Mudie
briefcase. I have been known to put it on my knee and stroke it in public
when I need re-assurance.
And I recognized that each religion/spiritual path has its icons, its sacred
symbols.
For the Christians, it a cross.
For the Jewish folk it's a Torah..
The Buddhists have statues of that Buddha guy everywhere
For the Consumer religion, it's a fast car and a pretty woman.
For some folks in the Cargo Cult, its an airplane
And for us, it's a giraffe.
Certified trainers get to where lapel pins of giraffes
Most NVC'ers have a giraffe figure in their homes. I do
Marshall give lectures about giraffe properties, e.g. largest heart in the
world
And cnvc.org (what some people see as our dominating structure, e.g. like
the Holy See) issues requests (which some people see to be similar to
edicts, papal demands etc) not to use giraffes symbols on printed matter.
Now the thing I like about NVC is that our Devil is symbolized by another
sacred symbol, the Jackal.
But I am learning in NVC to love and respect Jackals
And I am buying a small stuffed Jackal to put in my briefcase to hangout
with my giraffe
Did you pray to your giraffe today?
John
Niklas Wilkens
first, I laughed and smiled reading your message. I find that somehow... cute? I don't know, some little attachments to these symbols that we have. My need for belonging and community is being met. I have a giraffe with me myself and in the garden of the home of my parents stand two big beautiful wooden giraffes, of which I'm proud ;-)
At the same time I'm wondering about these mythic symbols... what are they really important for? I mean, what do they represent and isn't there some kind of projection in it? I just want to be careful, that I don't forget about the qualities in me, when I have the Giraffe with me. Although I suppose, when I'm really sure of them and have faith and trust, then I can just as well play with the symbol.
I like to include the jackal as well. What many approaches to emotional healing and transformation have, is a conception of one part in ourselves, which isn't really doing, what it should be doing. I hate that, I want to include everything of myself. So I'll watch out for a little jackal to join my giraffe.
CNVC asks to not use giraffe symbols on printed matter? What do you mean? To legally protect the symbol?
A kind jackal
Niklas
--
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John Mudie
============================================================================
CNVC asks to not use giraffe symbols on printed matter? What do you mean? To
legally protect the symbol?
A kind jackal
Niklas"
--
For people interested in becoming certified trainers the following applies
"5. What about using the giraffe image? We request that you refrain from
using the term Giraffe Language or the image or term “giraffe” in any
printed or promotional material because of our desire to have CNVC’s public
image universally understood. The giraffe image does not translate well in
all cultures, and we want NVC to be accessible and welcomed in every part
of the international community. Please feel free to use the image and
puppets as an effective tool in your actual training sessions. "
From http://www.cnvc.org/sites/cnvc.org/files/cert/cnvc-cpp-2007.01.09.doc
I guess I am never going to be able to become a certified trainer because I
confess I have printed the sacred term "giraffe" on some handouts and
frequently use this word in messages which can be printed out.
Granted so far these words have remained inside the US (except for the
e-mails) and haven't yet found their way to a country where they could upset
people (I hope) . It is clear that I am not willing to fill CNVC's request
not to print the word "giraffe" so I hope that they can get that particular
need filled elsewhere.
But on second thoughts, maybe I can meet CNVC's request. People of the
Jewish faith have a similar difficulty so I suggest we use the G------ word
in future printed matter and e-mails to denote our sacred brain state and
satisfy CNVC's request at the same time.
John
For those of you who are not familiar with my use of the term brainstate, I
invite you to spend 20 mins watching http://youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU
and see if there is any correspondence between Jill's la la land and extreme
G---------- ism