Nu v2 == NuPack

[Rob Reynolds]

As many of you have probably seen this morning, NuPack was announced. I have a blog post coming, but Bil already has one up: http://weblogs.asp.net/bsimser/archive/2010/10/06/unicorns-triple-rainbows-package-management-and-lasers.aspx 

Basically both Nu and NuPack will co-exist for awhile until as a community, everyone is ready to make the jump. 

I'm blessed to be part of both and glad that Microsoft came to us asking for feedback instead of just crushing us like they have been known to do in the past. It's definitely a different Microsoft these days. Especially considering that NuPack is the first true OSS project by Microsoft and can have non-MS core contributors.

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

[Sebastien Lambla]

<clap> <clap>

---

From: nu-...@googlegroups.com [nu-...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Rob Reynolds [ferven...@gmail.com]
Sent: 06 October 2010 16:58
To: nu-net
Subject: Nu v2 == NuPack

[Chris Sutton]

This is a really good move. Rob, I'm glad to see that you already have
commits to the project.

Chris

On Oct 6, 10:58 am, Rob Reynolds <ferventco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As many of you have probably seen this morning, NuPack was announced. I have

> a blog post coming, but Bil already has one up:http://weblogs.asp.net/bsimser/archive/2010/10/06/unicorns-triple-rai...

[Adam Dymitruk]

If it's part of VS, I don't see how healthy it will be. If it's not supporting the push behind things like TFS, it's not going to go far. If it is, then it will be a crappy deal.

The reason that MS went to this is due to the amount of exposure users of nu would have to Ruby.

On 2010-10-06 9:05 AM, "Chris Sutton" <bdsu...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nick Quaranto]

Congrats guys. Bummed that Ruby isn't at the forefront here, but I had to make compromises too to bring it to the community at large. What's the deal for the server that is hosting the packages? I hope the process is as easy as `gem push`. :) Keep it up!

[Matt Michielsen]

This is awesome.  I guess I'm kind of glad I haven't gotten to setting up an internal gemcutter for my group.

[Sebastien Lambla]

NuPack is read-only. 

---

From: nu-...@googlegroups.com [nu-...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Adam Dymitruk [ad...@dymitruk.com]
Sent: 06 October 2010 17:14
To: nu-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nu v2 == NuPack

[Simser, Bil]

I don’t understand the statement that NuPack is read-only?

[Rob Reynolds]

Confused on the read only statement as well. Having an account on codeplex/github gives you the ability to fork code. Is there something that was forgotten in the process of publishing?

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

[Sebastien Lambla]

There is no write enabled repository on which to push a package. Sorry for the confusion. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Simser, Bil]

Ahh, right. No, there isn’t a public repository like RubyGems right now. The current repository is hosted and there’s no mechanism to push new packages up to that repository (yet). There are plans for a gallery (much like the VS gallery today) that is currently being worked on. When that’s delivered, you’ll have the push capability (just upload your .nupkg file).

 

In the interim, just setup a file share on your corporation to use it internally or create a simple web site that provides an ATOM feed (see NuPack.Server for an example) and setup your own public repository.

[Rob Reynolds]

NuPack is far from done. There is a temporary feed here that will be later changed to a gallery.  Fork and issue a pull request when ready: http://nupackpackages.codeplex.com/SourceControl/network

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

[Dru Sellers]

</clap></clap>

[Sebastien Lambla]

Those were html5 tags...

Sent from my iPhone

[Dru Sellers]

One thing that I would like to highlight that has come out of this project whether or not it is to stay, and i hope it is, is the DTE available through PowerConsole. That thing is blooming awesome!!! Finally an easy way for me to automate the drudgery tasks!!!

-d

[Dru Sellers]

@seb :)
-d

[Rob Reynolds]

Here's mine, not quite as entertaining as Bil's though. :(  http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds/archive/2010/09/21/the-evolution-of-package-management-for-net.aspx

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Rob,

First of all, congratulations. I think this is an exciting project.

Unfortunately, I take a bit of exception to this statement...

> Basically both Nu and NuPack will co-exist for awhile until as a community,
> everyone is ready to make the jump.

There is no reason to believe that "everyone" will eventually make the jump,
except for some limited subset of "everyone" who use Visual Studio. My
understanding of the nu project was that it was thinking more broadly.

That said, it's open source, so if nu dies, something nu-er may emerge. :-)

Charlie

[Rob Reynolds]

Did we get that gemcutter patch to you for setting up a gemcutter server with a simple shell script?

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

[Rob Reynolds]

True. Can't argue with that. Gems has application gems. Which is not something that NuPack will support. They are leaving that to CoApp. So there is room for competition depending on what CoApp provides.

[Adam Dymitruk]

Do all the monodevelop guys have the ability to use nupack on Linux?

--
Adam

http://adventuresinagile.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/adymitruk/
http://www.agilevancouver.net/
http://grou.ps/altnetvan/

[Simser, Bil]

I don't think they can use the UI because it's tied to VS DTE but unpack.exe runs on mono and anyone can use the API found in NuPack.Core dll to build any UI around it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nu-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nu-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Dymitruk
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 12:30 PM
To: nu-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nu v2 == NuPack

[Rob Reynolds]

We are pushing for that. Mono FTW!

[Nick Quaranto]

I really, really, sincerely hope this won't be the case going forward. Showing that the "community" (since one exists, right?) owns and is able to make changes instead of the organization behind it is a huge part of what makes every other package management system work. Kind of disconcerting from an outside perspective that this huge part of it isn't there yet...but it is hot off the presses :)

[Simser, Bil]

What are you not hoping will go forward? That a hosted repository will be setup (in progress, just don’t know when it goes live) or that individuals can setup their own servers (already possible).

[Nick Quaranto]

That the repository stays read-only and doesn't accept user contributions.

[Dru Sellers]

I spent a bit of time (not exhaustive by any means) checking for mono compatibility.

pls respond if you have any problem with it.

-d

[Simser, Bil]

Agreed. Phil has updated the NuPack FAQ pointing out that the current repository is only a temporary one, but the intent is to have a gallery (much like the VS one) where anyone can add a package (just like RubyGems today).

[Heinrich Breedt]

What will nupack bring that nuproj couldnt?

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:58 AM, Rob Reynolds <ferven...@gmail.com> wrote:

As many of you have probably seen this morning, NuPack was announced. I have a blog post coming, but Bil already has one up: http://weblogs.asp.net/bsimser/archive/2010/10/06/unicorns-triple-rainbows-package-management-and-lasers.aspx 

Basically both Nu and NuPack will co-exist for awhile until as a community, everyone is ready to make the jump. 

I'm blessed to be part of both and glad that Microsoft came to us asking for feedback instead of just crushing us like they have been known to do in the past. It's definitely a different Microsoft these days. Especially considering that NuPack is the first true OSS project by Microsoft and can have non-MS core contributors.

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

--
Heinrich Breedt

“Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.” - William B. Sprague

[Adam Dymitruk]

Absence of Ruby. Major MS win.

[Heinrich Breedt]

presence of ruby is hardly a requirement for me, for all i care could be done in php

[Rob Reynolds]

One thing it will bring that nuproj did not yet have is the ability to have default configurations/scaffolding. The idea that your application configuration may require some settings and by adding a package reference, those things are put in there with the default configuration settings is pretty sweet.

[Charlie Poole]

But what's the win for us? :-)

[Heinrich Breedt]

i guess what im asking is, why go the route of nupack absorbing nuproj. Why not go the route of Jquery: MS contributing to nuproj?

[Adam Dymitruk]

Ruby exposure. Or am I being too conspiracy theorist here?

--

[Keith Dahlby]

A Ruby *dependency* could certainly be considered a barrier to widespread adoption. If MS is going to back a .NET package manager, why would they be content with requiring an otherwise-unneeded runtime?

[Dru Sellers]

Exposure of DTE through PowerShell Console == uber awesome

- I fully plan to add scaffolding to everything I can with this! Boo yeah baby this alone is frigging AWESOME. I would scrap all of my time and effort with Nu (from the 1st chat 3 years ago to today) for this alone

Baked into the VS Shell starting with the Next Version == massive awareness about OSS from MSFT

Implicit Blue Backing of OSS in general = huge win for us

ATM some full time developers kicking serious ass (no more single / two developer scramblings)

CodePlex backing from a funding perspective (i think?) and marketing perspective

Its on hg which continues the SCM usage model

Its Apache License WHOOT

It is using a bunch of .Net helpful conventions (OPC [which is weird but whateva'], OData, PowerShell, DTE, etc)

-d

[Heinrich Breedt]

this is what needs communicating.

Good job everyone involved

[Sebastien Lambla]

 We do system-wide packages in openwrap too.

Just saying.

---

From: nu-...@googlegroups.com [nu-...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Rob Reynolds [ferven...@gmail.com]

Sent: 06 October 2010 19:29

To: nu-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nu v2 == NuPack

[Heinrich Breedt]

Who is "they", and why are "they" deciding what the future of NuPack will be? Serious question.

Just sounding as if not really community owned.

Heinrich

[Adam Dymitruk]

I think I'm seeing why you started openwrap. I think I'll be using that.

--

[Rob Reynolds]

I would say ruby would be an issue, except that I have close friends that told me that microsoft was developing their own and had seen previews before we decided to go the ruby route.

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Adam Dymitruk <ad...@dymitruk.com> wrote:

[Rob Reynolds]

Charlie,

I love how you always bring the direct and to the point questions. The major win, IMHO, comes to a more widespread adoption of OSS tools. People that have never heard of log4net are now going to find it and try it. With NUnit you have quite an audience, but I'm guessing much of that audience is hard fought and retained over time because you have a superior product. But there is a wider audience of .NET developers that only use what Microsoft tells them to use (or their companies, who are listening to Microsoft). Now that MS is saying, package management is awesome, these companies and individuals will slowly start to warm up to this idea of OSS.  It won't happen over night and it won't happen everywhere. But now there's a much better chance.

The biggest point to make is that until Microsoft blessed jQuery, there were a lot of people that couldn't use it and/or never heard of it. And companies wouldn't allow it. Now that microsoft is saying package management, it's the open source providers who are the winners. 

Think about it. Will MSTest be a package? Depends on licensing/legal stuff with Microsoft? Will NUnit be a package? I think we can safely assume it will. So when someone goes searching for a testing tool, low and behold they are going to find NUnit and others. 

So the case for more people having the opportunity to see/use your oss tools is there. That's the real win for OSS in my book.

____
Rob
"Be passionate in all you do"

http://devlicio.us/blogs/rob_reynolds
http://ferventcoder.com
http://twitter.com/ferventcoder

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Rob,

Glad you like it. :-)

I agree with everything you say, to the extent that "benefit to us" refers to
the Microsoft .NET developer community. This is a major opening up of
Microsoft - or a part of it anyway - to Open Source. I would be very
happy about it even if this were not a project I was interested in.

But I was defining "us" differently.

I was hoping to see something equally useful to the greater .NET
community, which counts those developing under Linux, Mac and
other platforms. You'll recall that one of the first questions I asked you
about the nu project was whether it would work on those other platforms.
With the ruby base, it did and that was a Good Thing.

Microsoft, OTOH, is focusing on users of Microsoft Windows and
primarily Visual Studio. That's as we would expect from a commercial
entity with it's own platforms to protect. I don't think they're evil or
anything like that, just that their interests do not 100% coincide with
mine and with those of other developers like me.

So while I see what _they_ are doing as a really big plus for both
Open Source at large and for the more purely MS-oriented developers,
I see a down-side as well.

What was once a project open to multiple communities is now limited
to just one. It will probably do more for that one community than would
have otherwise been possible but I don't imagine it will focus very much
on those other communities it is leaving behind.

That's OK if it's a considered decision on your part and on the part of
others who made the call. But you were writing about it as if it were
all up-side, with no tradeoffs involved. There are definitely tradeoffs.

I will say that I'm happy to see Microsoft apparently getting smart
about open source at long last. But because they are smart about
it we who are independent need to be smart about where we
work with them and where we work separately - just as folks do
now with Novell, IBM, Sun, etc.

Charlie

[Rob Reynolds]

Someone got NuPack to work on Mono last night. It's only a matter of time. 

And yes there are trade offs. Over time I think everyone hopes they dissolve. That's why we are waiting for the general community here to say it's time before sunsetting the ruby version of nu. And like you already mentioned, that doesn't mean other uses won't come out of nu/gems itself, like I mentioned before with application gems.

[Charlie Poole]

When you say "work with mono" I assume that's the console runner.

My impression is that the MS focus is on the VS extension. But
maybe community members can push for a free-standing gui or
even develop separate extensions for other IDEs.

Charlie

[Rob Reynolds]

To be fair, nu didn't have a gui for mono either. Only the drop to lib. Unless I'm mistaken.

And I think you are correct that other GUIs can and probably will come out for this using the nupack package format.  Only time will tell! :D

[Rob Reynolds]

Nu doesn't have a GUI for Mono. 

[Charlie Poole]

True, but it didn't have a Gui at all - not counting the VS addin.

OTOH, a ruby gui would work on all environments.

Nevertheless, I agree that it will be built if it's needed.

Charlie