question about German
Marc Adler
My question is about modifying/relative clauses. Example:
Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen Korrespondenz der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen Sui-Dynastie (6.–7. Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes.[2]
Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes" ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese, for example. This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind of construction mandatory? Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht sich auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or something)?
I've noticed extremely long modifying clauses positioned like this before the head in newspaper articles, so I get the (possibly mistaken) impression that they are characteristic of written German.
[1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in college, then forgot it all.
[2]From http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan which also contains the gem, "aus den Zeichen 日 (Aussprache ni, in der Bedeutung „Tag“ oder „Sonne“)" -- 日 = ni ?!
--
Marc Adler
nanpu...@yahoo.co.jp
--- Marc Adler <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:
> My question is about modifying/relative clauses. Example:
>
> [...] bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen
> oestliche Lage des Landes.
>
>Is this kind of construction mandatory?
No, in many cases you can use a relative clause instead of the construction
you are pointing out (like in English), and in other cases you can use
different constructions to convey the same meaning (although the
alternative may be longer or more convoluted).
Why is this kind of phrases used at all? It is easy to use, since articles,
adjectives, and nouns show declension, and it is often the most compact way
of making a point.
>[...] so I get the (possibly mistaken) impression
> that they are characteristic of written German.
I am not aware of this kind of construction in any other language except
Japanese, but i suspect that any Germanic language with declension of
articles, adjectives, and nouns might allow it (in some cases). And it is,
by the way, not just written German, but also spoken German where you
encounter those constructions.
HTH, as little as it is...
Regards: Hendrik
.
--
--------------------------------------
Get Disney character's mail address on Yahoo! Mail
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/disney/
Friedemann Horn
> Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen Korrespondenz
> der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen Sui-Dynastie (6.–7.
> Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage
> des Landes.[2]
>
> Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes"
> ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot
> like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese, for
> example.
I think the head here is "Lage", so there's a lot of left-branching, but the
genetive construction at the end is right-branching.
> This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind of
> construction mandatory? Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht sich
> auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or
> something)?
"bezieht sich auf die Lage des Landes, die von China aus gesehen östlich ist."
But the other construction is more natural.
Friedemann Horn
www.horn-uchida.jp
Marc Adler
Die Frau war in dem Supermarkt angestellt, in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte.
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,669691,00.html
In this sentence, the relative clause comes after the head (Supermarkt), and I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that in order to make this sentence fit the head-last pattern, it would have to be:
Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte Supermarkt angestellt.
Is the repetition of in dem forbidden? Or is there another reason this construction isn't used here?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Not Honyaku Redux" group.
To post to this group, send email to not-hony...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to not-honyaku-re...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/not-honyaku-redux?hl=en.
Peter Tuffley
Peter Tuffley
On 1/01/2010, at 2:23 PM, Peter Tuffley wrote:
> FWIW, one of the set books in the German literature course in my
> senior grammar school year was Heinrich von Kleist's "Michael
> Kohlhaas", which is written throughout in Kursächsicher Kanzleistil
> (style of officialese used by the bureaucrats of the Electoral
> Principality of Saxony at the time of Martin Luther, the period that
> forms the setting of the novel). It was replete with complex
> sentences in which the construction Marc writes about abound (I
> still have my copy of the book -- page after unbroken page of Gothic
> Fraktur type, full of page-length sentences...)
>
> I believe the formal German name for the construction is
> Klammkonstruktion.
Mistake: the name is Klammerkonstruktion
Peter
Marc Adler
used by the bureaucrats of the Electoral Principality of Saxony at the time of Martin Luther, the period that forms the setting of the novel). It was replete with complex sentences in which the construction Marc writes about abound (I still have my copy of the book -- page after unbroken page of Gothic Fraktur type, full of page-length sentences...)
Sounds like a challenge. ;-)
Marc
Roland Hechtenberg
> Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen
> Korrespondenz der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen
> Sui-Dynastie (6.–7. Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus
> gesehen östliche Lage des Landes.[2]
>
> Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes"
> ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot
> like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese,
> for example. This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind
> of construction mandatory?
I wouldn't call it mandatory, but the stetence appears to be
quite normal, and I probably would use the same construction,
> Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht
> sich auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or
> something)?
You could rephrase it to for example "bezieht sich auf die Lage
des Landes, die von China aus gesehen östlich ist" or "bezieht
sich auf die Lage des Landes, östlich aus der Sicht Chinas" or
various other constructions, but all of them less elegant.
> I've noticed extremely long modifying clauses positioned like this
> before the head in newspaper articles, so I get the (possibly mistaken)
> impression that they are characteristic of written German.
One of my German teachers called it the "dergestalt, daß"
construction made famous by Kleist, resulting in rather ling
sentences. (He didnät like the style.)
Here an example: "Und muß ich dir sagen, Gottvergessener, daß
deine Obrigkeit von deiner Sache nichts weiß - was saf ich? daß
der Landesherr, gegen den u dich auflehnst, auch deinen Namen
nicht kennt, dergestalt, daß wenn dereist du vor Gottes Thron
trittst, in der Meinung, ihn anzuklagen, er, heiteren Antlitzes
wird sprechen können: diesem Mann, Herr, tat ich kein Unrecht,
denn sein Dasein ist meiner Seele fremd?" (Old spelling)
> [1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in
> college, then forgot it all.
Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy
to get? <g>
Have fun,
Roland
John Marchioro
>> [1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in
>> college, then forgot it all.
And Roland replied:
> Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy
> to get? <g>
It is easy to win when only one person enrolls for the course!
Have fun (needling Marc),
JM
Marc Adler
I wouldn't call it mandatory, but the stetence appears to be
quite normal, and I probably would use the same construction,
One of my German teachers called it the "dergestalt, daß"
construction made famous by Kleist, resulting in rather ling
sentences. (He didnät like the style.)
It's interesting to hear that a German disapproves of that style, because in the US (at least) you always hear about page-long sentences in German classics and how such-and-such translator did such a great job of breaking them down in English without losing the majesty (etc.). When unfurled, aren't those sentences just run-on?
> [1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in
> college, then forgot it all.
Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy
to get? <g>
The former, and therefore the latter, I like to flatter myself. ;-) They gave an award to the best student in each semester-level course.
Marc
Peter Tuffley
On 30/12/2009, at 7:17 PM, Roland Hechtenberg wrote:
>>
>
> One of my German teachers called it the "dergestalt, daß"
> construction made famous by Kleist, resulting in rather long
> sentences. (He didn't like the style.)
> Here an example: "Und muß ich dir sagen, Gottvergessener, daß
> deine Obrigkeit von deiner Sache nichts weiß - was sag ich? daß
> der Landesherr, gegen den du dich auflehnst, auch deinen Namen
> nicht kennt, dergestalt, daß wenn dereist du vor Gottes Thron
> trittst, in der Meinung, ihn anzuklagen, er, heiteren Antlitzes
> wird sprechen können: diesem Mann, Herr, tat ich kein Unrecht,
> denn sein Dasein ist meiner Seele fremd?" (Old spelling)
>
That definitely looks like a quote from "Michael Kohlhaas"; as I
recall, Kleist
put the words in the mouth of Martin Luther speaking to Kohlhaas.
The "dergstalt, daß..." would seem to have a function analogous to the
Japanese 。。。ように
FWIW
Peter
Marc Adler
Here an example: "Und muß ich dir sagen, Gottvergessener, daß
deine Obrigkeit von deiner Sache nichts weiß - was saf ich? daß
der Landesherr, gegen den u dich auflehnst, auch deinen Namen
nicht kennt, dergestalt, daß wenn dereist du vor Gottes Thron
trittst, in der Meinung, ihn anzuklagen, er, heiteren Antlitzes
wird sprechen können: diesem Mann, Herr, tat ich kein Unrecht,
denn sein Dasein ist meiner Seele fremd?" (Old spelling)
Just for kicks:
I can see how that "dergestalt, dass" would require some massaging to make into natural English, maybe something like "indeed, he's so totally ignorant of you that" perhaps.
Marc
Roland Hechtenberg
> I probably would use the same construction,
>
> In speech as well as writing?
Depending on the circumstances, I might use it, presupposing that I had
sufficient time to plan my sentences or was sufficiently familiar with
the circumstances.
In my opinion, it is not a matter of written German as opposed to spoken
German, but rather one of planning.
> It's interesting to hear that a German disapproves of that style,
> because in the US (at least) you always hear about page-long sentences
> in German classics and how such-and-such translator did such a great
> job of breaking them down in English without losing the majesty
> (etc.). When unfurled, aren't those sentences just run-on?
I don't think that that teacher was an exception, and brevity has its
advantages, but German classics after all are classics.
On the other hand, I don't believe that all American writers used short
sentences.
> Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy
> to get? <g>
>
>
> The former, and therefore the latter, I like to flatter myself. ;-)
I have a problem with your use of "therefore" in the above sentence.
If you are good, the awards don't have to be easy, and if the awards are
easy, you don't have to be good.
> They gave an award to the best student in each semester-level course.
Congratulations, but there is still the problem of the level of the
competition.
After all, only in Woebegone can all children be above average, while in
actual life nearly 50 % of all (fill in your group of choice) are below
average.
Have fun,
Roland
Roland Hechtenberg
> Just for kicks:
>
> And must I tell you, you God-forsaken man, that the authorities know
> nothing about your case -- what did I [saf??] -- that the sovereign
> you are rebelling against doesn't even know your name, [so much so]
> that if you dare stand before God's throne thinking of making
> accusations against him, he will be able to say with a cheerful look
> on his face: "I did this man no injustice, Lord, for his very
> existence is foreign to my soul"?
Assuming that the above is your own translation, I would say that you
earned your award, although the real test naturally would be a
translation in the opposite direction
>
> I can see how that "dergestalt, dass" would require some massaging to
> make into natural English, maybe something like "indeed, he's so
> totally ignorant of you that" perhaps.
A simple "so" should be sufficient, possibly an "in such a way that",
depending on the sentence.
Viel Spaß,
Roland
Roland Hechtenberg
> It is easy to win when only one person enrolls for the course!
>
But in that case he would have been at the very bottom of the ranking! <g>
Have fun,
Roland
Roland Hechtenberg
> /Die Frau war in dem Supermarkt angestellt, in dem sich die Bluttat
> abspielte./
>
> In this sentence, the relative clause comes after the head
> (Supermarkt), and I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that in
> order to make this sentence fit the head-last pattern, it would have
> to be:
>
> /Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte Supermarkt
> angestellt.
> /
> Is the repetition of /in dem/ forbidden? Or is there another reason
> this construction isn't used here?
While the repetition probably is not forbidden, it is definitely not
elegant and may be somewhat confusing, but the real problem is that I
can't think of a way to express the sentence in hte desired form.
Your version definitely is not acceptable in my opinion. "abspielte"
does not fit, and I can't change it to a form that would fit.
There is probably a correct name for it, but I don't know it.
Have fun,
Roland (just back from the country)
Marc Adler
> The former, and therefore the latter, I like to flatter myself. ;-)
If you are good, the awards don't have to be easy, and if the awards are
easy, you don't have to be good.
I meant that I was good and therefore it was easy (for me).
> They gave an award to the best student in each semester-level course.Congratulations, but there is still the problem of the level of the
competition.
Do you actually want to know how hard it was? I don't know. It was a decent-sized program at a decent university. They gave me a coffee table book about Berlin in German.
Marc
Roland Hechtenberg
> I meant that I was good and therefore it was easy (for me).
Yes, that interpretation occurred to me after sending.
> Do you actually want to know how hard it was?
Actually, no. I only intended to do a little friendly ribbing. I never
intended to diminish your achievements or to denigrate you.
> It was a decent-sized program at a decent university. They gave me a
> coffee table book about Berlin in German.
So we can assume that it was at least average (and that means NOT easy).
You definitely should be proud of your achievement, and you did impress
me (positively, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding).
Have fun (and some friendly ribbing),
Roland
John Marchioro
>> I meant that I was good and therefore it was easy (for me).
And Roland replied:
> Yes, that interpretation occurred to me after sending.
Marc:
>> Do you actually want to know how hard it was?
Roland:
> Actually, no. I only intended to do a little friendly ribbing. I never
> intended to diminish your achievements or to denigrate you.
FWIW, I took second-year German at Harvard back in the mid-90s. It was
a humbling experience. No prizes. I am sure my section leader was glad
to see the last of me. Too much work. Too many declensions. Those damn
plurals. Ach!
Has anyone read Don DeLillo's "White Noise"? The novel's protagonist
is an expert on Hitler, in the pseudo-field of Hitler Studies, who
teaches at a small college (the fictitious College-On-A-Hill, if my
memory serves me) and who is desperate to learn German, which he does
not know though he has pretended to know it for years, since there is
a big upcoming conference and his ability to speak German will finally
be put to the test, in public. So he secretly takes lessons on the
side from a lodger living nearby, with no results. DeLillo's
description of the German language is priceless, absolutely riotously
funny. As is that entire novel, one of the best American postmodern
novels ever.
John M.
Marc Adler
Actually, no. I only intended to do a little friendly ribbing. I never intended to diminish your achievements or to denigrate you.
Got it. I think I must've been overcaffeinated. :(
Roland Hechtenberg
> Got it. I think I must've been overcaffeinated. :(
No offense intended, none taken.
Have fun,
Roland
nanpu...@yahoo.co.jp
--- Marc Adler <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte Supermarkt
> angestellt.*
> Is the repetition of *in dem* forbidden? Or is there another reason
> this construction isn't used here?
Short answers: No. Yes. :-)
Longer answers: although an "in dem in dem" in this context sounds clumsy
it could be used (you can find less clumsy examples of "in dem in dem" via
Google). The problem is the "abspielte" in front of "Supermarkt": the
clause preceding the noun it defines (the head) has to project adjectival
characteristics, but the past tense form (preterite) of the verb can't do
that - you need to have a participle in that position.
So, here is an example that could theoretically work (although i doubt it
would fly, since it is rather clumsy):
Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abgespielt habenden Supermarkt
angestellt.
And here is an example of an "in dem in dem" construction about that
supermarket of yours that you might find more likely in the wild: ;-)
Die Frau war in dem in dem gestern von der Untersuchungskommission
vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen
Supermarkt angestellt.
As Roland might say, have fun and syntax...
Hendrik
.
--
--------------------------------------
Get the new Internet Explorer 8 optimized for Yahoo! JAPAN
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ie8/
Marc Adler
And here is an example of an "in dem in dem" construction about that
supermarket of yours that you might find more likely in the wild: ;-)
Die Frau war in dem in dem gestern von der Untersuchungskommission
vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen
Supermarkt angestellt.
Interesting. I think I see know. So in this example, the first dem corresponds to Supermarkt while the second (embedded) dem corresponds to Bericht, right?
Die Frau war in dem in dem gestern von der Untersuchungskommission vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen Supermarkt angestellt.
So the word which precedes the head known has to be in some kind of adjectival form, as a link.
The difference here, of course, is that here there are two nouns and two dem's. In my made-up sentence, both dem's point to the same noun. I think this is why the awkwardness remains in your correction of it.
Further Untersuchung is called for...
--
Marc Adler
http://www.linkedin.com/in/adlerpacific
Marc Adler
I know, I know...
Roland Hechtenberg
> The problem is the "abspielte" in front of "Supermarkt": the
> clause preceding the noun it defines (the head) has to project adjectival
> characteristics, but the past tense form (preterite) of the verb can't do
> that - you need to have a participle in that position.
>
Thanks for the grammatical underpinning. I just knew that I couldn't
rephrase the sentence correctly in the desired form, but I couldn't
quote chapter and verse.
Have fun,
Roland.
Roland Hechtenberg
> Die Frau war in dem in dem gestern von der Untersuchungskommission
> vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen
> Supermarkt angestellt.
In this case, they might change the second "in dem" to "im".
Die Frau war in dem im gestern von der Untersuchungskommission
vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen
Supermarkt angestellt.
Have fun,
Roland
Marc Adler
So the word which precedes the head known has to be in some kind of adjectival form, as a link.
What's wrong with me today??
Roland Hechtenberg
> What's wrong with me today??
An attack of the ks?
Have fun (or fnu if you are dyslexic),
Roland
Minoru Mochizuki
There’s something wrong in the air.
I should have written, “I would, if I could.” Instead I wrote “I would, if I can” in responding to John’s questions.
Minoru