So I've been trying to brush up on my German[1], and have been reading articles etc. on the web. Hopefully one of our German-speaking colleagues can help me out.
My question is about modifying/relative clauses. Example:
Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen Korrespondenz der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen Sui-Dynastie (6.–7. Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes.[2]
Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes" ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese, for example. This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind of construction mandatory? Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht sich auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or something)?
I've noticed extremely long modifying clauses positioned like this before the head in newspaper articles, so I get the (possibly mistaken) impression that they are characteristic of written German.
[1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in college, then forgot it all. [2]From http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan which also contains the gem, "aus den Zeichen 日 (Aussprache *ni*, in der Bedeutung „Tag“ oder „Sonne“)" -- 日*= ni *?!
> My question is about modifying/relative clauses. Example:
> [...] bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen > oestliche Lage des Landes.
>Is this kind of construction mandatory?
No, in many cases you can use a relative clause instead of the construction you are pointing out (like in English), and in other cases you can use different constructions to convey the same meaning (although the alternative may be longer or more convoluted).
Why is this kind of phrases used at all? It is easy to use, since articles, adjectives, and nouns show declension, and it is often the most compact way of making a point.
>[...] so I get the (possibly mistaken) impression > that they are characteristic of written German.
I am not aware of this kind of construction in any other language except Japanese, but i suspect that any Germanic language with declension of articles, adjectives, and nouns might allow it (in some cases). And it is, by the way, not just written German, but also spoken German where you encounter those constructions.
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Marc Adler <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote: > Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen Korrespondenz > der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen Sui-Dynastie (6.–7. > Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage > des Landes.[2]
> Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes" > ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot > like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese, for > example.
I think the head here is "Lage", so there's a lot of left-branching, but the genetive construction at the end is right-branching.
> This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind of > construction mandatory? Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht sich > auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or > something)?
"bezieht sich auf die Lage des Landes, die von China aus gesehen östlich ist."
In this sentence, the relative clause comes after the head (Supermarkt), and I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that in order to make this sentence fit the head-last pattern, it would have to be:
*Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte Supermarkt angestellt. * Is the repetition of *in dem* forbidden? Or is there another reason this construction isn't used here?
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Friedemann Horn <friedemannh...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Marc Adler <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen Korrespondenz > > der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen Sui-Dynastie (6.–7. > > Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage > > des Landes.[2]
> > Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes" > > ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot > > like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese, > for > > example.
> I think the head here is "Lage", so there's a lot of left-branching, but > the > genetive construction at the end is right-branching.
> > This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind of > > construction mandatory? Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht sich > > auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or > > something)?
> "bezieht sich auf die Lage des Landes, die von China aus gesehen östlich > ist."
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FWIW, one of the set books in the German literature course in my senior grammar school year was Heinrich von Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas", which is written throughout in Kursächsicher Kanzleistil (style of officialese used by the bureaucrats of the Electoral Principality of Saxony at the time of Martin Luther, the period that forms the setting of the novel). It was replete with complex sentences in which the construction Marc writes about abound (I still have my copy of the book -- page after unbroken page of Gothic Fraktur type, full of page-length sentences...)
I believe the formal German name for the construction is Klammkonstruktion.
> So I've been trying to brush up on my German[1], and have been > reading articles etc. on the web. Hopefully one of our German- > speaking colleagues can help me out.
> My question is about modifying/relative clauses. Example:
> Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen > Korrespondenz der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen Sui- > Dynastie (6.–7. Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus > gesehen östliche Lage des Landes.[2]
> Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des > Landes" ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") > looks a lot like a head-last construction, the kind that is > mandatory in Japanese, for example. This is atypical of Indo- > European languages. Is this kind of construction mandatory? Is it > possible to say, for example, "bezieht sich auf die östliche Lage > des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or something)?
> I've noticed extremely long modifying clauses positioned like this > before the head in newspaper articles, so I get the (possibly > mistaken) impression that they are characteristic of written German.
> FWIW, one of the set books in the German literature course in my > senior grammar school year was Heinrich von Kleist's "Michael > Kohlhaas", which is written throughout in Kursächsicher Kanzleistil > (style of officialese used by the bureaucrats of the Electoral > Principality of Saxony at the time of Martin Luther, the period that > forms the setting of the novel). It was replete with complex > sentences in which the construction Marc writes about abound (I > still have my copy of the book -- page after unbroken page of Gothic > Fraktur type, full of page-length sentences...)
> I believe the formal German name for the construction is > Klammkonstruktion.
>> Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des >> Landes" ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the >> country") looks a lot like a head-last construction, the kind that >> is mandatory in Japanese, for example.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Tuffley <peter.tuff...@gmail.com>wrote:
> used by the bureaucrats of the Electoral Principality of Saxony at the time > of Martin Luther, the period that forms the setting of the novel). It was > replete with complex sentences in which the construction Marc writes about > abound (I still have my copy of the book -- page after unbroken page of > Gothic Fraktur type, full of page-length sentences...)
Marc Adler wrote: > Die Nomenklatur des Landesnamens stammt von der offiziellen > Korrespondenz der japanischen Herrscher mit der chinesischen > Sui-Dynastie (6.–7. Jahrhundert) und bezieht sich auf die von China aus > gesehen östliche Lage des Landes.[2]
> Specifically, "auf die von China aus gesehen östliche Lage des Landes" > ("from the from-China-seen eastern position of the country") looks a lot > like a head-last construction, the kind that is mandatory in Japanese, > for example. This is atypical of Indo-European languages. Is this kind > of construction mandatory?
I wouldn't call it mandatory, but the stetence appears to be quite normal, and I probably would use the same construction,
> Is it possible to say, for example, "bezieht > sich auf die östliche Lage des Landes, die von China ist ausgesehen" (or > something)?
You could rephrase it to for example "bezieht sich auf die Lage des Landes, die von China aus gesehen östlich ist" or "bezieht sich auf die Lage des Landes, östlich aus der Sicht Chinas" or various other constructions, but all of them less elegant.
> I've noticed extremely long modifying clauses positioned like this > before the head in newspaper articles, so I get the (possibly mistaken) > impression that they are characteristic of written German.
One of my German teachers called it the "dergestalt, daß" construction made famous by Kleist, resulting in rather ling sentences. (He didnät like the style.) Here an example: "Und muß ich dir sagen, Gottvergessener, daß deine Obrigkeit von deiner Sache nichts weiß - was saf ich? daß der Landesherr, gegen den u dich auflehnst, auch deinen Namen nicht kennt, dergestalt, daß wenn dereist du vor Gottes Thron trittst, in der Meinung, ihn anzuklagen, er, heiteren Antlitzes wird sprechen können: diesem Mann, Herr, tat ich kein Unrecht, denn sein Dasein ist meiner Seele fremd?" (Old spelling)
> [1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in > college, then forgot it all.
Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy to get? <g>
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:17 AM, Roland Hechtenberg <rol...@ictv.ne.jp>wrote:
> I wouldn't call it mandatory, but the stetence appears to be > quite normal, and I probably would use the same construction,
> In speech as well as writing? > One of my German teachers called it the "dergestalt, daß" > construction made famous by Kleist, resulting in rather ling > sentences. (He didnät like the style.)
It's interesting to hear that a German disapproves of that style, because in the US (at least) you always hear about page-long sentences in German classics and how such-and-such translator did such a great job of breaking them down in English without losing the majesty (etc.). When unfurled, aren't those sentences just run-on?
> > [1] I actually won an award for my grades the two semesters I took it in > > college, then forgot it all.
> Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy > to get? <g>
The former, and therefore the latter, I like to flatter myself. ;-) They gave an award to the best student in each semester-level course.
On 30/12/2009, at 7:17 PM, Roland Hechtenberg wrote:
> One of my German teachers called it the "dergestalt, daß" > construction made famous by Kleist, resulting in rather long > sentences. (He didn't like the style.) > Here an example: "Und muß ich dir sagen, Gottvergessener, daß > deine Obrigkeit von deiner Sache nichts weiß - was sag ich? daß > der Landesherr, gegen den du dich auflehnst, auch deinen Namen > nicht kennt, dergestalt, daß wenn dereist du vor Gottes Thron > trittst, in der Meinung, ihn anzuklagen, er, heiteren Antlitzes > wird sprechen können: diesem Mann, Herr, tat ich kein Unrecht, > denn sein Dasein ist meiner Seele fremd?" (Old spelling)
That definitely looks like a quote from "Michael Kohlhaas"; as I recall, Kleist put the words in the mouth of Martin Luther speaking to Kohlhaas.
The "dergstalt, daß..." would seem to have a function analogous to the Japanese 。。。ように
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:17 AM, Roland Hechtenberg <rol...@ictv.ne.jp>wrote:
> Here an example: "Und muß ich dir sagen, Gottvergessener, daß > deine Obrigkeit von deiner Sache nichts weiß - was saf ich? daß > der Landesherr, gegen den u dich auflehnst, auch deinen Namen > nicht kennt, dergestalt, daß wenn dereist du vor Gottes Thron > trittst, in der Meinung, ihn anzuklagen, er, heiteren Antlitzes > wird sprechen können: diesem Mann, Herr, tat ich kein Unrecht, > denn sein Dasein ist meiner Seele fremd?" (Old spelling)
Just for kicks:
And must I tell you, you God-forsaken man, that the authorities know nothing about your case -- what did I [saf??] -- that the sovereign you are rebelling against doesn't even know your name, [so much so] that if you dare stand before God's throne thinking of making accusations against him, he will be able to say with a cheerful look on his face: "I did this man no injustice, Lord, for his very existence is foreign to my soul"?
I can see how that "dergestalt, dass" would require some massaging to make into natural English, maybe something like "indeed, he's so totally ignorant of you that" perhaps.
Marc Adler wrote: > I probably would use the same construction,
> In speech as well as writing?
Depending on the circumstances, I might use it, presupposing that I had sufficient time to plan my sentences or was sufficiently familiar with the circumstances. In my opinion, it is not a matter of written German as opposed to spoken German, but rather one of planning.
> It's interesting to hear that a German disapproves of that style, > because in the US (at least) you always hear about page-long sentences > in German classics and how such-and-such translator did such a great > job of breaking them down in English without losing the majesty > (etc.). When unfurled, aren't those sentences just run-on?
I don't think that that teacher was an exception, and brevity has its advantages, but German classics after all are classics. On the other hand, I don't believe that all American writers used short sentences.
> Does that mean that you were very good or that awards were easy > to get? <g>
> The former, and therefore the latter, I like to flatter myself. ;-)
I have a problem with your use of "therefore" in the above sentence. If you are good, the awards don't have to be easy, and if the awards are easy, you don't have to be good.
> They gave an award to the best student in each semester-level course.
Congratulations, but there is still the problem of the level of the competition. After all, only in Woebegone can all children be above average, while in actual life nearly 50 % of all (fill in your group of choice) are below average.
> And must I tell you, you God-forsaken man, that the authorities know > nothing about your case -- what did I [saf??] -- that the sovereign > you are rebelling against doesn't even know your name, [so much so] > that if you dare stand before God's throne thinking of making > accusations against him, he will be able to say with a cheerful look > on his face: "I did this man no injustice, Lord, for his very > existence is foreign to my soul"?
Assuming that the above is your own translation, I would say that you earned your award, although the real test naturally would be a translation in the opposite direction
> I can see how that "dergestalt, dass" would require some massaging to > make into natural English, maybe something like "indeed, he's so > totally ignorant of you that" perhaps.
A simple "so" should be sufficient, possibly an "in such a way that", depending on the sentence.
Marc Adler wrote: > /Die Frau war in dem Supermarkt angestellt, in dem sich die Bluttat > abspielte./
> In this sentence, the relative clause comes after the head > (Supermarkt), and I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that in > order to make this sentence fit the head-last pattern, it would have > to be:
> /Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte Supermarkt > angestellt. > / > Is the repetition of /in dem/ forbidden? Or is there another reason > this construction isn't used here?
While the repetition probably is not forbidden, it is definitely not elegant and may be somewhat confusing, but the real problem is that I can't think of a way to express the sentence in hte desired form. Your version definitely is not acceptable in my opinion. "abspielte" does not fit, and I can't change it to a form that would fit. There is probably a correct name for it, but I don't know it.
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Roland Hechtenberg <rol...@ictv.ne.jp>wrote:
> > The former, and therefore the latter, I like to flatter myself. ;-)
> If you are good, the awards don't have to be easy, and if the awards are > easy, you don't have to be good.
I meant that I was good and therefore it was easy (for me).
> > They gave an award to the best student in each semester-level course.
> Congratulations, but there is still the problem of the level of the > competition.
Do you actually want to know how hard it was? I don't know. It was a decent-sized program at a decent university. They gave me a coffee table book about Berlin in German.
>> I meant that I was good and therefore it was easy (for me).
And Roland replied:
> Yes, that interpretation occurred to me after sending.
Marc:
>> Do you actually want to know how hard it was?
Roland:
> Actually, no. I only intended to do a little friendly ribbing. I never > intended to diminish your achievements or to denigrate you.
FWIW, I took second-year German at Harvard back in the mid-90s. It was a humbling experience. No prizes. I am sure my section leader was glad to see the last of me. Too much work. Too many declensions. Those damn plurals. Ach!
Has anyone read Don DeLillo's "White Noise"? The novel's protagonist is an expert on Hitler, in the pseudo-field of Hitler Studies, who teaches at a small college (the fictitious College-On-A-Hill, if my memory serves me) and who is desperate to learn German, which he does not know though he has pretended to know it for years, since there is a big upcoming conference and his ability to speak German will finally be put to the test, in public. So he secretly takes lessons on the side from a lodger living nearby, with no results. DeLillo's description of the German language is priceless, absolutely riotously funny. As is that entire novel, one of the best American postmodern novels ever.
> *Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abspielte Supermarkt > angestellt.* > Is the repetition of *in dem* forbidden? Or is there another reason > this construction isn't used here?
Short answers: No. Yes. :-)
Longer answers: although an "in dem in dem" in this context sounds clumsy it could be used (you can find less clumsy examples of "in dem in dem" via Google). The problem is the "abspielte" in front of "Supermarkt": the clause preceding the noun it defines (the head) has to project adjectival characteristics, but the past tense form (preterite) of the verb can't do that - you need to have a participle in that position.
So, here is an example that could theoretically work (although i doubt it would fly, since it is rather clumsy): Die Frau war in dem in dem sich die Bluttat abgespielt habenden Supermarkt angestellt.
And here is an example of an "in dem in dem" construction about that supermarket of yours that you might find more likely in the wild: ;-) Die Frau war in dem in dem gestern von der Untersuchungskommission vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen Supermarkt angestellt.
As Roland might say, have fun and syntax...
Hendrik
. --
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> And here is an example of an "in dem in dem" construction about that > supermarket of yours that you might find more likely in the wild: ;-) > Die Frau war in dem in dem gestern von der Untersuchungskommission > vorgelegten Bericht als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschriebenen > Supermarkt angestellt.
Interesting. I think I see know. So in this example, the first *dem*corresponds to *Supermarkt* while the second (embedded) *dem* corresponds to *Bericht*, right?
Die Frau war *in dem* *in dem* gestern von der Untersuchungskommission vorgelegt*en* *Bericht* als "Fassade einer Geldwaescherei" beschrieben*en* * Supermarkt* angestellt.
The woman was employed *at the* *supermarket *which was described *in the* *report *submitted yesterday by the investigatory commission as a "front for a money-laundering operation."
So the word which precedes the head known has to be in some kind of *adjectival form*, as a link.
The difference here, of course, is that here there are two nouns and two * dem*'s. In my made-up sentence, both *dem*'s point to the same noun. I think this is why the awkwardness remains in your correction of it.
nanpuu2...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: > The problem is the "abspielte" in front of "Supermarkt": the > clause preceding the noun it defines (the head) has to project adjectival > characteristics, but the past tense form (preterite) of the verb can't do > that - you need to have a participle in that position.
Thanks for the grammatical underpinning. I just knew that I couldn't rephrase the sentence correctly in the desired form, but I couldn't quote chapter and verse.
