does anyone in the room know what it's like to have massive massive
sanctions placed on your country?food for oil??? that's a little
exploitative, isn't it?  in favor of the west, non?  so people are dying
there because of a lack of food and medical supplies.  but that's saddam's
fault.  i think it's not so simple as you paint it.  the powers in the west
have placed sanctions on iraq that will cause instability in the region...
that's their purpose.

fuck, why is it so hard to get this shit through to people?  everyone is
painting it black and white, when it is incredibly grey.

when one country imposes its will on another, we condemn them. when that
country is backed by us, it's 'peace keeping'.  if i was an iraqi, i'd be
VERY VERY angry with the united states too.  who the hell are you to tell us
that we can't have arms?  you do... your friends do...   who the hell are
you to tell us we can't have medicine?

shit, bring it closer to home: cuba.  fidel was once labelled the biggest
threat in the world by the american government.  387 years later, the guy's
still going, and no one is really scared of him anymore... go figure.  it
seems the media got tired of pointing a finger at him saying he was going to
do something, and then he woulnd't.... interesting (chicken little).  has
iraq EVER done anything to the United States?  so why are they really there?
damn, man, this is so easy.

do americans need a visual of people being made to 'pay' for being
'terrorists'?  damn straight.  the way i see it, the war on terrorism
doesn't have any visible victories, just a byline in a newspaper.  there are
no regimes to topple.  so the government is going after one.  the 'terrorism
scapegoat'.  something we can see, digest.  it's sickening.

and your friends who say saddam is bad, did they also say "he's building
nukes.. kill him and the people that live there, they deserve to die?".
hmmmm.......  ask next time.  ask what 'bad man' means to them.  then ask if
all 'bad men' deserve to die.  then we can all be judge and jury and execute
whoever the hell we deem 'bad'.  come to think of it, let's just kill
everybody who wasn't born here.  that'll cure a whole bunch of stuff!
yipppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

"Defender of Enormous Manhood" <catwa...@hotmale.com> wrote in message
news:rFBo9.209975$8b1.118133@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

No, I've not personally met Saddam. But if you're looking for information, here
are a couple of references from sources that are by no means U.S.-friendly, so
unfortunately you won't be able to claim that they are doing the bidding of the
U.S., ok Wylbur?

ENJOY.

Amnesty International:

http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140081997?OpenDocument&of=...

Human Rights Watch 2002 Report on Iraq

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/mena4.html

Mr. Ed

"The FAMOUS Mr. Ed"

No, the sanctions were placed upon Iraq because Iraq refused to comply with the
agreements they signed off on at the end of the Persian Gulf War. Those
sanctions were placed upon Iraq by the United Nations, and the international
community (with a few exceptions) likewise signed off.  The sanctions could have
been avoided if Saddam had not chosen to continue his programmes of
chemical/biological/nuclear weapons development. The 'food for oil' scheme was
intended to allow Iraq to obtain vital resources and products needed by the
Iraqi people. Saddam chose to use the revenues to fuel his military and weapons
development. The Iraqi people are suffering only due to the megalomania of their
leader.

It may be 'grey' to you, but the issues are quite clear cut. The reason you
probably view this as 'grey' is that you are unable to deal with black and
issues like 'right and wrong', 'good and evil', etc. That is what 'moral
equivalence' can do to your view of the world.

See above. The United States (nor is the rest of the world) is not an enemy of
the Iraqi people -- the enemy of the Iraqi people is the Iraqi dictatorship
which oppresses them and causes them unnecessary hardship. You ought to consider
a different career path -- being a professional apologist for Saddam requires
more intellectual tools than I think you have available in your bag of
rhetorical tricks.

I suggest you consult the United Nations own report on human rights abuses in
Fidel's little workers paradise. Not one free election has been held in that
place since he seized power in 1959. It's not a question of anyone being
'scared' of Castro, but the Cuban people suffer not much differently than the
Iraqis because like Iraq, Cuba is ruled by a dictator that allows no dissent, no
opposition political parties, and employs torture and other reprehensible means
to retain political power.

And FYI, Iraq has fired upon U.S. and U.K. aircraft enforcing U.N. approved
'no-fly zones' over 700 times. Iraq is a rogue nation, in violation of U.N.
resolutions and directives, and for all the public utterances by their Arab
neighbours, Iraq has no allies that it can count on. Saddam is isolated by
virtue of his own abominable behaviour. Now THAT is easy to see.

Unless one is an ostrich.

Straw Man. Set Him Up. Knock Him Down.

You're too obvious.

Thank you for displaying your intellectual immaturity for all to see.

Gosh Wylbur, he sounds upset.

Mr. Ed

"The FAMOUS Mr. Ed"

Sounds like Mr. Ed should be the one to check out the history books.

Mr. Ed should also stop watching CNN so much and watch some news reports
from around the world to get a different perspective on the situation.  But
alas,..it sounds like Mr. Ed is addicted to the American point of view.
They sure did sucker him in.

Debbie it may seem farfetched right now but the U.S. is slowly
becoming the dictator of the world. The American people don't even
realize how the rest of the world views them. The American people are
completely unaware. That's scary. I can see in 20 years if the
American dictatorship of the world continues we could be invaded for
our water and electricity that the U.S. is in dire straits for.  They
may not invade physically in the near future but they are already
continually bullying our govt.  Although I think that the United
Nations are not being tough enough in reinforcing the rules it set
down for Iraq , I still believe it is the United Nations
responsibility to deal with Iraq. Not Saddam Hussein. He is one sick
individual but he has a long line of sick puppies willing to ready to
take his place. Again George Bush is willing to go against the United
Nations. He and the U.S. are perceived by most of the world as
dictators.

apply them to canada as well.  our treatment of natives, america's treatment
of blacks, hollywood's treatment of women.  wow, you're hardcore one-sided
rah-rah.  it's scary to think outside the box, i know. my point is: you sit
on a pedestal of moral superiority when you condemn others.  as a wise jew
once said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".  go ahead...

news:3DA2EEC8.441CB102@w3source.net...

http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140081997?OpenDocument&of=...
ES%5CIRAQ

OK, that's it.  Alma, I don't think you were here when I posted this.
While I agree with a lot of people's views on the American government, I
get pretty angrey when folks stereotype all americans as dumb and
uninformed.  Yes, many are.  But I can tell you my wife's son, who is
American and was on duty at the gate less than 200 yards from and
looking directly at last week's explosion in Kabul is not.  Please read
the following:

Hmmm, it's not on Google....  I wonder why?  Here it is:

news:3D7566F2.DABF262A@morgan.ucs.mun.ca...

To all you little (and please consider every possible connotation of
that adjective) ignorami putting down Americans at the slightest excuse:

You really should direct your comments toward the American government
and/or American business.  Quite frankly, as someone who is a
Newfoundlander first and a Canadian a very distant second (Canada, c'est
mon pays, Terre-nouve, c'est ma patrie), I am incredibly embarrassed and
personally pissed off at some of the pathetic paltry pre-pubescent fist
pumping I am seeing here.  Cool alliteration, what?

Do you know any Americans personally?  Do you know all of them? Because
to make some of the statements that I see here, leads me to only two
possible conclusions:

The first is that you know every single one of (how many, 250 million or
more?) them and are making an informed and balanced evaluation.

The other, more plausible conclusion is that you are either wilfully
ignorant or engaging in national/ethnic stereotypes of the sort *we*
frequently encounter in the rest of Canada.  That last clause means
you're a bigot if you couldn't figure it out.  More likely though, it's
a combination of the two so you are an *ignorant* bigot.  Not unlike the
sort of uneducated inbred trailer trash we all aspire to evolve *away*
from.

Get some experience in life and grow past your own mommy's backyards.
Because of the incredible ignorance seen here, does a reasonable person
draw the conclusion that *all* our brethern on the island and in
Labrador are incredibly immature?

I interact with Americans every day in the software business.  I know
tons of them, including my wife.  And her son.  And when I think of that
particular US Marine (who loves it here, BTW), who was blown the fuck
off a goddamn hill in Tora Bora in January and medevaced back to the US
(recovered and is now back in Kabul as an embassy guard) being including
in some of your broad sweeping generalizations, all I can imagine when I
see some of these words is that origin of your text can only be what is
dripping out of a thrice used and patched condom distended and floating
in a puddle of liquid shit in the harbour.

If you want to beat up on the US government, please do so.  I intensely
dislike Bush for his Kyoto stance (and our resulting reluctance to adopt
it) and for his current warmongering.  I detest the way American
companies thrust the Mcdonald's and rap culture down our throats (and I
also hate how easily our masses unhesitatingly swallow it).

But if you are going to say "all Americans" instead of specifying the
above, then you are a piece of knowledgeless banging claptrap on the
side of a dingy peeling cabin that needs a steel nail driven through it
before it learns to stop making noise.

To those to which the above invective does not apply, my apologies.
--
Tim - http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
 ^o<  
 /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^  "Want some?" - Ditto

When we legalize marijuana, the stalwart prohibitionists will raise the
same hawkish aspirations as lead to the invasion of Canada in 1812.
--
Tim - http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
 ^o<  
 /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^  "Want some?" - Ditto

Funny, also, however that the places which "are" amongst the best are
also the
ones that have far lower immigration rates than America.  How many
Americans go
to schools in those countries, then compare it with how many of their
people
come to America to learn?

If those countries weren't oil-producing countries, then they'd be
absolutely nothing at all.  As it stands now, they are resource-sinks
on the global economy.  They are, of themselves, entirely non-viable
countries (according to the United Nations report written by Arabs at
http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/).  Their culture died around 300 years
ago.

They were against other countries BEFORE those other countries started
meddling in their affairs.  In fact, the region has never known peace.
 They've warred with each other for as long as they've recorded
history.

And that is their fault.  They've ELECTED this.  They've been poor
since before America existed as a country.  Their educational systems
are horrible NOT because they are poor (in part, in some countries,
that is the reason) -- the primary reason is because their educational
system is institutionally crippled by their religious influences.

In a BEST case scenario, you could blame America for involvement since
1948 in that region.  That would be around a single generation.
That's not "generations"...  More technically, you'd have to blame
Britain, but that is too technical, because that would mean you'd have
to have studied something called "history"...

Iran is a great example.  They are economically poor now.  This is
AFTER America pulled out.  When America was "involved" they were
almost OK (some say wealthy, but wealth at that time was in the hands
of very few).  After they "kicked America out" they had total control.
 Well, because of systemic investments in markets that didn't keep up,
they went broke as a country.  Iraq made investments in opposing
markets and Iraq actually did well (investing wise).  Well, Iran also
became more militant and stricter in their version of Islam.  Today,
they are doing pretty darned bad.  Why?  Could be because they
VOLUNTARILY entered into a 10 year war with their Islamic neigbor,
Iraq.

Well, they MADE choices, we didn't interfere, and look... like
everyone else in the region -- they are volatile, they hate ALL
non-Muslims, they are super militant and don't get along well with
their neighbors.  They don't even like certain types of Muslims.

It's not the poverty.  Poverty might be a contributing factor.  But,
througout history, this kind of hatred comes from either religion or a
failure to accept responsibility for your actions.

America has been around for only 200 or so years, and has been
"meddling" for only around 100-150 of them.  These countries have
millenia of recorded hatred and their actions and behaviour has not
changed an iota in all that time.

What about the other countries involved?  Like France and Germany and
Russia?  Oh -- that's right... everyone forgets that France, China and
Russia were or are the main provider of weapons and arms and military
support to Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran (with Ukraine, Brazil and Italy
providing a good deal as well).  Funny, nobody complains about their
involvement.  That would be because the people not mentioning them are
incapable of independant thought, they probably rely on the National
Enquirer or the Page 3 girl for their news.

au contraire. I never watch CNN. Too unreliable.

Perhaps Runner has been stranded on the River too long.

Mr Ed

"The FAMOUS Mr Ed"

What you're missing in all this is that it's not about Canada's treatments of
natives, nor is it about how America treats blacks, or how Hollywood treats
women (?).

Try not to evade the subject at hand?

The subject was Iraq. The references were supplied. Apparently you have no
interest and prefer to just spout off.

Mr. Ed

"The FAMOUS Mr Ed"

 thanks for finally showing me that you're unable to see the bigger picture.
you may post in reply, but i won't be back to follow the thread. i'm
through.  although you seem educated, i don't think we can walk down this
road any further due to a few of your limited abilities, and your
progressive and escalating use of insults as an attempted form at feeling
comfortably superior.  good luck in your life.

news:3DA3876F.11545362@w3source.net...

http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140081997?OpenDocument&of=...

There are a few points I would like to comments from your presomptuous
dissertation.

In the following paragraph, you seem to forget that palestinians have been
pushed away from their land years after years, for decades, by israeli
expanding settling.  The quiet but steady colonisation of israelis doesn't
appear like terrorism, but it does eventually pile-up to a general
frustration that will end-up as terrorism from the most extreme
individuals.  And when a population has nothing to lose, well they will
support the ones that fight the long time "quiet" enemy.  Don't forget the
fear of being the next family or village to be evicted from your house and
land.  It is true that palestinian extremists are, somehow, stopping any
peace progress.  Colonisation does the same.

In the next paragraph, you talk about the close relationship between Islam
and political leaders.  Don't you forget that Israel is a jewish state
which governement has always been in very close relationships with
religious powers through all of its history.  Again, colonisation is only
done in the favor of jewish israelis.  And don't confuse Islam religion
with skrewed political leaders that pretend they are acting and speaking in
the way Islam is asking them to as you do in the last sentence of the
following paragraph.  It is very pretentious, misleading, and false.

Francois Hardy

Sorry to see you tuck your tail between your legs and slink off.  But it is
abundantly clear that you have no basis to defend your own crumbling
position(s).

Bottom line? You refused to consider the very sort of unbiased references that
you would demand from others because those references don't fit into your own
'bigger picture', iow your 'personal world view'.

What you have shown is that your arguments are not based upon fact, but upon
bias.

Give 'em a sugar cube Wylbur, he said he's not coming back. Let's wave goodbye.

Mr. Ed

"The FAMOUS Mr Ed"

    Doubtful.  Economic negotiations, talk about repeal of NAFTA, whatever.
Sort of like the periodic trade negotiations with Japan.  But to invade Canada,
to declare war -- even if an individual president had such an idea, I'm sure he
couldn't get Congressional approval.

Debbie Rothman
Brooklyn, NY

    Maybe that particular person was, but I have heard Canadians here and in
other forums talk seriously about fear that the US will invade under certain
conditions.  Early in the War on Terrorism, there was some discussion on here
about what would happen if Canadian troops found bin Laden and refused to kill
him or to turn him over to the US because of anti-death penalty laws.

Debbie Rothman
Brooklyn, NY

    Yes, no doubt a few will.  But enough to prevail?  Besides, there's talk of
legalization, or at least decriminalization here too -- at least there used to
be, and may be again.  These things go in cycles.

Debbie Rothman
Brooklyn, NY

    Truth be told, the invasion has already begun like it did for the 'other
sept. eleventh' with CIA, FBI, DEA, Border guards and cutoms agents all
operating on Canadian soil with their side arms.  We've already passed
legislation that allows American troops to operate in times of emergency on
our soil.  In one short year we've become as American as apple pie.
news:ao8tar$nlj$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...

yes they do Debbie....if you had told me in they 70's or early 80's that
Iraq or Afghanistan harbored enemies to the free world, I would have laughed
at you...they were bastions of freedom, America's greatest allies against
terror, oppression, and the red menace..but , things change ....anyway...if
the political attitude up here changed and trade relations broke down, I
would seriously fear American reprisal....I can even visualize the headlines
how Canada opens the door to terrorist...our liberal drug policies...all
this on America's doorstep....we have to invade to protect ourselves from
the evil Canadian menace
5 or 6 speeches later and Canada is the enemy
without Canadian oil and water America would be hard shape. the voracious
consumer driven economy could not handle it, and war would be the only
outcome
do you honestly think bush would be going Iraq if he didn't want their oil
I was talking to my parents who unwaveringly support George w. and all his
rhetoric, but one of the things my mother said really got to me, she told me
how Iraq was unfairly with-holding their oil from us and could attack us at
any minute
now I'm left wondering why the hell should they sell oil to the US??their
oil, they can sell to whomever they want....and I don't think the US has to
worry about an eminent attack from a petty dictator who can barely shoot a
missile 200 miles....the issue is not American safety its Iraq's
oil....George w. can sugar coat it how ever he wants
here's a relay good question for you Debbie...
Has the US ever supplied Iraq with chemical or biological weapons????
or how about
Did the CIA ever train bin laden???
not all of your government's goals are altruistic

news:20021012035026.27052.00000950@mb-mh.aol.com...

You clearly have a lot of growing up to do. I will not stoop to argue
with someone who's maturity level is at the low end of the scale. You
would make a more educated point if you weren't so obviously immature.
Crudeness won't get you anywhere in life for when you do make a good
point nobody's listening. I shouldn't say the American people , I
should say the majority of the American people as stated in numerous
surveys. Yes I do know multitudes of Americans as I have lived in the
U.S.  So therefore I do speek from experience. So before you accuse me
of forming an opinion of a population remember you are doing the same
thing to me. Shouting off your mouth. You are assuming I am a biggot.
You do not know of some of the serious stands that I have taken in my
lifetime for people of colour,women who have been battered. Some of
those stands have been taken at risk of bodily harm. And yes those
stands were taken in the U.S. Remember that the next time you shoot
off your filthy, immature mouth!!!!

Please cite the surveys.

However, you are still generalizing.

Alma, I should have made things clearer (someone has cancelled my post
to which you are responding).  What I wrote was not directed directly at
you but was a *repost* of something I wrote some time ago which was an
expression of frustration.  A large number of people were doing just as
you are, generalizing with a broad brush all AMericans.  I'm sick of
seeing people display bigotry towards a group of people which our
society deems it OK to bad mouth.  Just try replacing in all your rants
against Americans the term "Americans" with "blacks" or "chinese" and
you'll understand my reaction.

People who say the same as you do, ie:

"So therefore I do speek from experience."

So do those who call us "dumb newfies".

I am sure you'e participated in some good causes, but with respect to
this issue, I don't care about what you've done.  It's irrelevant.  And
you negate any good you've done in the world if you embrace cultural or
ethnic stereotypes.
--
Tim - http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
 ^o<  
 /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^  "Want some?" - Ditto

Not surprised it was cancelled, probably thought you were over the top
and narrowminded!!!! Next time make your point with a little more
dignity and a little less trailer park attitude!!!

OK, since you were so offended at my language, let's go over it again.
First of all, the post was constructed carefully to offend at what
figured was a strategic place.  The language was no less offensive than
the generalizations made by the people for whom the post was
constructed. And again, it was not directed directly at you, but a
repost of something I'd done before.  

Now, for your indignance at being thinking I called you a bigot?  I
didn't.  However, I'd be tempted to.  Here's why, based on the postings
I've seen you make here:

I thought I've seen you reply, rather nicely, to some posts a while back
on mainlanders' prejudging of us.  Yet at the same time, you say you've
been in the US and are therefore qualified to stereotype and broadbrush
Americans?  There was a famous personality on this newsgroup a number of
years ago who said exactly the same thing about blacks.  You've
expressed your own frustration at mainlanders who lambast us.

I'm married to an American.  Her son, who loves the Avalon, is a US
Marine who was wounded in Tora Bora last January.  He's now at the Kabul
embassy... two weeks ago, when there was news of a large bomb outside
the US embassy there, my wife was reading an email on our laptop from
him "trying to tell her before she read it on the news" just when CTV
news atarted talking about it (he was at the gate at the time of the
blast).  If you have children or know anyone who does, I'm sure you can
imagine what her state of mind has been since last Fall, especially when
we suspected it was his unit tunnelling through the caves of Tora Bora
(and even worse when we received word of his being hurt and where).

BTW, 26 Marine Expeditionary Unit in Afghanistan last December and now
the Marines at the KAbul embassy now have discovered the joys of Purity
peppermint knobs...

When YOU and numerous others pontificate about "all americans are this",
you are directly insulting my wife and all her family.  You don't know
her, you have no reason to spit in my wife's face, so why do you do it?

From the tone of your other posts, I wouldn't think you are meaning to
insult my family the way you are when you do that - it's almost a
natural thing to do when expressing frustration at certain things.  

BUT YOU ARE DIRECTLY ASSAULTING MY WIFE.

It would be the same as if out of the blue I posted "Alma Peters
is...<insert explicative here> with no provocation whatsoever.

But then again, it was natural not too long ago for many people to
typify things about other ethnic groups and it still seems to be in
vogue today for some mainlanders with respect to us.  

Why is your condemnation of every single American any different?  Please
answer that.
--
Tim - http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
 ^o<  
 /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^  "Want some?" - Ditto

news:20021012034640.27052.00000949@mb-mh.aol.com...
certain

   There are a number of published books on this.  I haven't read an entire
one before but I read a couple of chapters of one my friend had.   I can't
remember the name of the book off hand but the first chapter really opened
my eyes.

The author analyzed resources, policy, military placements, etc and drew
some really strong conclusions.   I think the chances of Canada falling
apart and being annexed by the US will happen before any invasion takes
place.  This country is in hard shape.

L8r

    I have never been a blanket supporter of the US government, and am very
well aware of both of these items.

     US foreign policy is always aimed at fighting the last war.  Too often,
that results in arming or even creating the next enemy.

       Yes, oil is a significant factor, if not the significant factor in the
imminent invasion of Iraq.  Economic factors are always important in wars.
That does not necessarily mean, however, that Iraq isn't harboring or funding
terrorism, or that Iraq's own policies and technologies aren't dangerous to
surrounding countries as well as to the West.  Personally, I am not sure about
this war -- I mean, the extension to Iraq .  Too many knee-jerk reactions on
both sides.

    However, I asked about invading Canada, not Iraq.  You know (and no one has
said Word One about this on here) Chretien recently made a statement to the
effect that the West was at fault for 9/11.  At least that's the way it was
taken here. (I haven't actually seen or heard the statement.)  And our
government did not respond at all.  Perhaps it's because we are totally
oblivious to Canada, or perhaps because we really are not the "world
controllers" some think we are trying to be.  I must tell you personally that
if I were the president and was attempting to coordinate a coalition of allies
for what I thought was a vital military goal, I would not appreciate statements
from leaders within that alliance that supported the enemy position.
If I were Bush, I would definitely have insisted (and done so in public) that
Chretien come to Washington for a summit conference on "the state of the
US-Canadian alliance."

Debbie Rothman
Brooklyn, NY