newsreading over the Web

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 12.04.2012 04:00, bsh wrote:

[Cross-posting to news:news.software.readers, and setting
Followup-To: there as well.]

[...]

> Some folks proposed to use {tagging} instead. Others prefer to just
> ignore Goo*** Soups and switch to a (real) newsreader.

Which makes me wonder, is there a real newsreader implemented in
ECMAScript (or a dialect of)?

--
FSF associate member #7257

[mechanic]

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:56:31 -0500, Sqwertz wrote:

> http://www.newsreaders.com/web/software.html

Most of this stuff has disappeared - out of date.

[Whiskers]

Not exactly what you're asking for, and maintenance seems to have ceased:
<http://newega.free.fr/index.html>

The Opera browser has a mail+news client built in. Lynx can handle usenet
and email to, to some extent. No ECMAscript involved, though.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 2012-04-23, Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> writes:

[...]

>>> Some folks proposed to use {tagging} instead. Others prefer to
>>> just ignore Goo*** Soups and switch to a (real) newsreader.

>> Which makes me wonder, is there a real newsreader implemented in
>> ECMAScript (or a dialect of)?

> Not exactly what you're asking for, and maintenance seems to have
> ceased: <http://newega.free.fr/index.html>

... Which is, unfortunately, non-free.

OTOH, there's News Portal [1].

[1] http://amrhein.eu/newsportal/index-english.php3

> The Opera browser has a mail+news client built in. Lynx can handle
> usenet and email to, to some extent. No ECMAscript involved, though.

The goal is not to read netnews with a Web browser, but to allow
those who have access only to a "common" (and free software) Web
browser (such as Firefox) to access NNTP servers of their
choice. (Including those serving only the "site" users.)

A Firefox plugin would fit, more or less, though.

[Whiskers]

On 2012-04-25, Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 2012-04-23, Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> The goal is not to read netnews with a Web browser, but to allow
> those who have access only to a "common" (and free software) Web
> browser (such as Firefox) to access NNTP servers of their
> choice. (Including those serving only the "site" users.)
>
> A Firefox plugin would fit, more or less, though.

There are many usenet clients available. If you don't want to teach all
your users how to use emacs and Gnus, suggest they try Thunderbird or
Claws Mail to get them started. When they become confident and familiar
with usenet, they can try whatever other software they want.

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

^^^^^^^
That's _implementation_, and I don't know such a newsreader. Interesting
idea, though.

--
PointedEars

Please do not Cc: me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

[RS Wood]

> OTOH, there's News Portal [1].
>
> [1] http://amrhein.eu/newsportal/index-english.php3
>

NewsPortal is pretty good software. You can see it in action at
http://forum.dictatorshandbook.net where it provides a web interface to
my News server. I don't think it would be useful on a site providing a
large number of newsgroups, but for a site providing a limited set of
groups, it's pretty effective.

[John F. Morse]

<Yuck>!

I see no point in Webnews software.

Why do people spend time writing such garbage when there are many good
newsreaders available?


--
John

When a person has -- whether they knew it or not -- already
rejected the Truth, by what means do they discern a lie?

[John F. Morse]

Sn!pe wrote:

> John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> RS Wood wrote:
>>
>>>> OTOH, there's News Portal [1].
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://amrhein.eu/newsportal/index-english.php3
>>>>
>>> NewsPortal is pretty good software. You can see it in action at
>>> http://forum.dictatorshandbook.net where it provides a web interface to
>>> my News server. I don't think it would be useful on a site providing a
>>> large number of newsgroups, but for a site providing a limited set of
>>> groups, it's pretty effective.
>>>
>> <Yuck>!
>>
>> I see no point in Webnews software.
>>
>> Why do people spend time writing such garbage when there are many good
>> newsreaders available?
>>
>

> Besides, it's dependent on a single service, far too vulnerable
> to censorship. Pardon me for displaying the bee in my bonnet.
>


+1

[Mike Yetto]

John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> writes and having writ moves on.

>RS Wood wrote:
>>> OTOH, there's News Portal [1].
>>>
>>> [1] http://amrhein.eu/newsportal/index-english.php3
>>>
>>
>> NewsPortal is pretty good software. You can see it in action at
>> http://forum.dictatorshandbook.net where it provides a web interface to
>> my News server. I don't think it would be useful on a site providing a
>> large number of newsgroups, but for a site providing a limited set of
>> groups, it's pretty effective.
>>


><Yuck>!

>I see no point in Webnews software.

>Why do people spend time writing such garbage when there are many good
>newsreaders available?

For too many people the web *is* the internet and they'll never
understand the difference.

Mike "we already have a series of tubes" Yetto
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice they are not.

[RS Wood]

Mike is right. The deal is: dictatorshandbook.net is a news server.
Point your favorite newsreader software to that URL and you are
connected. But for those people who for whatever reason can't or won't,
having the content available via the web is also useful. Thing is: the
web interface isn't a replacement, it's an addition. The folks that
like SLRN or TIN or Knode or Pan or whatever, can connect that way
(actually, that's the preferred method). But this way the rest of the
world isn't left out.

[Doug Freyburger]

Sn!pe wrote:
> John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:

Every so often I clean out my kill file. Plenty of folks end up back in
it rapidly. After a bunch of cycles I stop cleaning out some and switch
them from !kill to !ignore. Snipe stayed out of my list for a long time
this cycle.

>> I see no point in Webnews software.

Many see no point in having to install custom software for what should
be a standard service. Either tablets and such need to come natively
with a newsreader, web access needs to be there for Usenet, or UseNet
does not get considered a standard service. Most of the world has
chosen the third.

>> Why do people spend time writing such garbage when there are many good
>> newsreaders available?

I keep looking at NSPs that offer reading over HTTP. When one of them
offers good enough filtering I will swtcihh to them and punt on
newsreaders. Make that if one of them offers ...

> Besides, it's dependent on a single service, far too vulnerable

That is an issue but the NSPs I use aren't down all that much and UseNet
is not a critical system. So it's down for a few hours every few months
until the admin intervenes. A free service where that happens is worth
far more than the price paid.

> to censorship. Pardon me for displaying the bee in my bonnet.

The bee in my bonnet is that the existance of invisible kill files makes
it hard for NSPs to gather statistics on the abusers. The "abuse of
news versus abuse on news" is a cop out. Abuse is abuse. Have a
per-user filer list. Mine it for abusers. Establish some system where
being complained about cancels complaining and gather statistics. The
well behaved folks have always outnumbered the abusers. Start doing
timeouts on abusers based on concensus feedback. Let them post just
drop the articles before they make it to the queue so they are not
visible to others. Increase timeout each cycle. Such a system reduces
the amount of abuse transmitted by the NSP so it helps Usenet in general
yet is done by user feedback not administrative censorship.

As usual with software - If you want it write it. I do not write it so
just how badly do I want it? Not badly enough write it myself. It's
not even at the top of my list of applications I'd write if I were to
switch back to being a developer.

[Mike Yetto]

RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> writes and having writ moves on.

The web interface is typically a poorly designed front-end that
hides the user's location (Usenet) and encourages the belief that
a series of closed forums is being used. That leads to the
customs and expectations being used.

To that you can add the improper use of the NNTP protocols by web
front-ends of any size and sophistication (such as Google Groups)
and the core of Usenet becomes polluted.

A fairly common assumption is that posts from such interfaces are
suspect until the individual posting has shown a minimum amount
of clue.

Mike "if you only have a hammer, everything else is a nail" Yetto

[John F. Morse]

Mike Yetto wrote:

> For too many people the web *is* the internet and they'll never
> understand the difference.
>

That is so true, and I've often stated that the Best Buy computer
purchasers only need a browser -- and Facebook.

Overnight they become experts in computer science.

[John F. Morse]

RS Wood wrote:

> Mike is right. The deal is: dictatorshandbook.net is a news server.
> Point your favorite newsreader software to that URL and you are
> connected. But for those people who for whatever reason can't or won't,
> having the content available via the web is also useful. Thing is: the
> web interface isn't a replacement, it's an addition. The folks that
> like SLRN or TIN or Knode or Pan or whatever, can connect that way
> (actually, that's the preferred method). But this way the rest of the
> world isn't left out.
>

So, if someone is hungry, are you saying they shouldn't get a job, but
instead use a gun? ;-)

[John F. Morse]

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>
> Every so often I clean out my kill file. Plenty of folks end up back in
> it rapidly. After a bunch of cycles I stop cleaning out some and switch
> them from !kill to !ignore. Snipe stayed out of my list for a long time
> this cycle.
>

I don't pardon people. Kill is dead. No resurrection.

I usually do give someone several chances to act like a caring human,
but when they push to the limit for the sake of trying to beat me, they
are killfiled forever.

They only get back when they nymshift, use a different
NNTP-Posting-Host, M-ID, or other methods of tracking nymshifters, then
they are again plonked.

>>> I see no point in Webnews software.
>>>
>
> Many see no point in having to install custom software for what should
> be a standard service. Either tablets and such need to come natively
> with a newsreader, web access needs to be there for Usenet, or UseNet
> does not get considered a standard service. Most of the world has
> chosen the third.
>

I'm not "most of the world" and you aren't either. I have my own
"standards" and I've voiced them.

>>> Why do people spend time writing such garbage when there are many good
>>> newsreaders available?
>>>
>
> I keep looking at NSPs that offer reading over HTTP. When one of them
> offers good enough filtering I will swtcihh to them and punt on
> newsreaders. Make that if one of them offers ...
>

I use no HTTP for news reading. It just plain sucks. If there were no
NNTP (NNRP) clients, and only Webnews remained, I'd find something else
to do. Watching the grass grow and fishing comes to mind. ;-)

>> Besides, it's dependent on a single service, far too vulnerable
>>
>
> That is an issue but the NSPs I use aren't down all that much and UseNet
> is not a critical system. So it's down for a few hours every few months
> until the admin intervenes. A free service where that happens is worth
> far more than the price paid.
>

What Snipe may have been referring to is censuring -- not server uptime.

Usenet is a distributed medium; articles are on thousands of servers all
over the world.

When you rely on an individually-owned Webserver, then that Webmaster
has the final say. If he disagrees, he can delete your ideas -- stifle
your voice.

>> to censorship. Pardon me for displaying the bee in my bonnet.
>>
>
> The bee in my bonnet is that the existance of invisible kill files makes
> it hard for NSPs to gather statistics on the abusers. The "abuse of
> news versus abuse on news" is a cop out. Abuse is abuse. Have a
> per-user filer list. Mine it for abusers. Establish some system where
> being complained about cancels complaining and gather statistics. The
> well behaved folks have always outnumbered the abusers. Start doing
> timeouts on abusers based on concensus feedback. Let them post just
> drop the articles before they make it to the queue so they are not
> visible to others. Increase timeout each cycle. Such a system reduces
> the amount of abuse transmitted by the NSP so it helps Usenet in general
> yet is done by user feedback not administrative censorship.
>

Problem here is what you consider "abuse" is not what everyone considers
"abuse."

That is why there are killfiles created for each individual newsreader.
Roll your own for best results.

NSPs shouldn't be "gathering statistics" on anything beyond that
required for the normal operation of their news servers. Things like
server loading and attempts to circumvent password authentication.

Any statistic required by a government agency is already in the message
header, and stored on thousands of news servers, for as long as they
provide retention. News server logs generally rotate every three days,
so unless someone shows up with a warrant in three days, they are SOL.

Abuse from spamming, and excessive multiposting (which is usually a flag
that spam is being propagated), are one form of abuse filtering that is
practiced by many news server administrators.

Some, like newsguy, are on the borderline of being dealt the Usenet
Death Penalty for all of the worthless spam generated by their servers
(alt.sex.telephone at the rate of some 50,000 articles per day). But
they evidentially make a ton of money allowing this kind of abuse.

I don't like it, but I realize that there must be some sick perverts who
enjoy this kind of thrill.

There are a lot of things I personally don't like, but that doesn't mean
I'm going to force my personal opinions on everybody else by choosing
what they can and cannot read. They all must make up their own minds
concerning right and wrong.

They also must be prepared to answer why they made the choices, and I
certainly can't answer for them. ;-)

> As usual with software - If you want it write it. I do not write it so
> just how badly do I want it? Not badly enough write it myself. It's
> not even at the top of my list of applications I'd write if I were to
> switch back to being a developer.
>

That is very good logic.

Concerning newsreaders, there is not one that is perfect. Nor close to
perfect. Like you, I haven't written mine yet, and others would then
surely disagree with our wants and needs.

[Adam H. Kerman]

John F. Morse <dont.bother> wrote:

>I don't pardon people. Kill is dead. No resurrection.

Who do you think you are, a state governor?

[tlvp]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 16:46:36 -0500, John F. Morse wrote:

> RS Wood wrote:
>>

>> Mike is right. The deal is: dictatorshandbook.net is ...

>
> So, if someone is hungry, are you saying they shouldn't get a job, but
> instead use a gun? ;-)

Actually, I thought he was saying, "come to dictatorshandbook.net, my
favorite soup kitchen" :-) . But I could have misunderstood (I often do).

Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

[Mike Yetto]

sittingduck <du...@spamherelots.com> writes and having writ moves on.

>Mike Yetto wrote:

>> Mike "we already have a series of tubes" Yetto

>I post thru it.

>User-Agent: aseriesoftubes

I've been meaning to ask you about that. Did the Senator write
that himself?

Mike "or is it an app to nowhere?" Yetto

[Doug Freyburger]

John F. Morse wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>> John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I keep looking at NSPs that offer reading over HTTP. When one of them
>> offers good enough filtering I will swtcihh to them and punt on
>> newsreaders. Make that if one of them offers ...
>
> I use no HTTP for news reading. It just plain sucks. If there were no
> NNTP (NNRP) clients, and only Webnews remained, I'd find something else
> to do. Watching the grass grow and fishing comes to mind. ;-)

Your logic runs like this - One implementation defines the field. If
it's bad the field is bad. To this logic I offer CP/M. It was bad.
Therefore operating systems are bad. You should stop using computers.

My logic runs like this - If I don't like the implementations of web
news service I should write one myself. Since I have not yet done that
I'm stuck using the tools others have written.

>> The bee in my bonnet is that the existance of invisible kill files makes
>> it hard for NSPs to gather statistics on the abusers. The "abuse of

>> news versus abuse on news" is a cop out. Abuse is abuse ...

>
> Problem here is what you consider "abuse" is not what everyone considers
> "abuse."

So we disagree. You take the traditional UseNet party line. I do not.

UseNet has been losing readers for many years because of that thinking.
New posters see the abuse and leave to places where it's not present.
Try having conversations with web forum users until you've found a bunch
of people who've tried UseNet as I have so you have data on when they
leave. Others eventually got tired of the abuse because kill files have
to grow endlessly while the abuse is not present on other forums.

> That is why there are killfiles created for each individual newsreader.
> Roll your own for best results.

If true then the market would demonstrate that. What the market is
demonstrating is web forums continue to grew and text Usenet slowly
continues to shrink. A lot of groups are no longer even attacked by
trolls because the real traffic has been gone for so long. For many
years trolls have fought a war of attrition against UseNet and the many
empty groups tells the tale of their success far better than your
asserting what was originally UseNet party line.

> There are a lot of things I personally don't like, but that doesn't mean
> I'm going to force my personal opinions on everybody else by choosing
> what they can and cannot read. They all must make up their own minds
> concerning right and wrong.

Which is why I think it should be automated based on concensus. Market
influence not personal influence. Let the mass of customers decide what
is and isn't abuse. I suggest you do know what would happen if that
were done - Goodbye trolls. But you like how UseNet used to work. Do
you like it from the days when trolls got their accounts pulled so they
flunked out of college? I remember those days. They were the golden
age of UseNet in the years before and after the Great Remaning. They
were golden because trolls got their accounts pulled and suffered the
consequences by flunking out of college. The censorship was there.

To me I think that's the source of our agreement. I remember talking
with news admins in the days when Usenet was newly connected to the
ARPAnet. They complained about the constant flow of account
cancellation orders they got resulting from troll posts. To me the
censorship that I saw was the cause of the golden age. I figure fairly
few posters on UseNet knew the news admins who did those account
cancelations so they think the golden age happened without censorship.
The censorship was there in the 1980s and it was extremely harsh.

>> As usual with software - If you want it write it. I do not write it so
>> just how badly do I want it? Not badly enough write it myself. It's
>> not even at the top of my list of applications I'd write if I were to
>> switch back to being a developer.
>
> That is very good logic.

It does show my level of devotion. I continue to post I as I have for
decades but I don't write a news server nor news reder of my own.

> Concerning newsreaders, there is not one that is perfect. Nor close to
> perfect. Like you, I haven't written mine yet, and others would then
> surely disagree with our wants and needs.

So far I use one with single line regular expressions. To my knowledge
it is beyond the ability of XPN filtering to mark read all posts from a
single NSP that start a new topic. Do that with Google, Webtv and maybe
others and the amount of noise goes down tremendously. I've tried
dropping all posts from those two NSPs and the effect was too harsh for
me. Each has posters who participate in active threads and white
listing is yet another endless maintenance process like black listing
new trolls, socks and nyms.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <jpbrl8$1s8$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>, on 05/20/2012

at 05:36 PM, "John F. Morse" <jo...@example.invalid> said:

>I don't pardon people. Kill is dead. No resurrection.

My news client times out kill entries, but I must admit that I
sometimes set some to never expire.

>What Snipe may have been referring to is censuring

Censoring.

>Concerning newsreaders, there is not one that is perfect.

All software sucks.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spam...@library.lspace.org

[RS Wood]

> Actually, I thought he was saying, "come to dictatorshandbook.net, my
> favorite soup kitchen" :-) . But I could have misunderstood (I often do).
>
> Cheers, -- tlvp

More like, I love the newsreader approach to building communities more
than the web-forum or (gack) Facebook approach. So I built my site
using that technology. But I realize not everyone agrees with me
(lots of friends complained, waaah, how come I have to download another
piece of software - a newsreader - to use your site? That's scary!
Never mind they'll buy an app for their iphone without thinking about
the 99¢ they spend). OK, so if that's the level of computer-savvy we're
dealing with here, insisting on NNTP means not very many users.

Obviously, you're welcome on the site if you like discussing dictators
(and not welcome otherwise) ;)

[tlvp]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:01:43 -0400, Shmuel Metz wrote:

>>What Snipe may have been referring to is censuring
>
> Censoring.

I'll have one of each, please; thanks :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp

[tlvp]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 15:41:01 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger wrote:

> UseNet has been losing readers for many years because ...

... because us old farts die off, and the new generation is too busy with
FaceBook and Twitter and NetFlix to care about newsgroups. Face it :-) .

[Mike Yetto]

RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> writes and having writ moves on.

If you're discussing dictators anyway, wouldn't it be more in
keeping to just tell them what they must have?

Mike "of course they'll have to like it, too" Yetto

[Whiskers]

Perhaps your technophobe friends would be less scared if you suggested
they use the 'Mail' options in Opera (if they're already familiar with
that browser), or install "Newega" (a Usenet reader with a web based
interface) <http://newega.free.fr/index.html>. Perhaps you could even
work out a way of sending them a config file for Newega so that they
don't need to do any configuring for themselves to get started with your
news-server.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Doug Freyburger]

tlvp wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> UseNet has been losing readers for many years because ...
>
> ... because us old farts die off, and the new generation is too busy with
> FaceBook and Twitter and NetFlix to care about newsgroups. Face it :-) .

I repeat - How many frmer readers and posters have you discussed the
reasons they left UseNet with? Over the years I found dozens. The
reason they left revolve around customer service perceptions having to
do with abusers. Forums delete abusive posts and ban abusers. useNet
only does that with a tiny fraction based on technicalities that users
do not care about.

Until you have discussed why they left with as many former readers and
posters as you can find, the rest is speculation. Show me the data.

[Steve Bonine]

OK, so you're both right. What difference does it make unless there is
something we can do about it.

There are people who hang on to old technologies because they enjoy it.
Far be it from me to tell them how to spend their spare time; if it
gives someone pleasure to run OS/2, it impacts me not at all. The
difference with Usenet is that it's a community; as soon as enough users
leave so that there's no longer a critical mass to sustain discussion, a
given newsgroup dies.

No danger of that for this newsgroup in the near future <grin>

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 11:04:00 -0500, Steve Bonine <s...@pobox.com>
wrote:

>There are people who hang on to old technologies because they enjoy it.

In the case of Usenet there are some people like me who hang on
because using web forums is too slow due to the clumsy navigation. I
would need to use nearly 300 forums to meet my Usenet need.

Steve


--
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com

[RS Wood]

On 2012-05-22, Doug Freyburger <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> tlvp wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>>> UseNet has been losing readers for many years because ...
>>
>> ... because us old farts die off, and the new generation is too busy with
>> FaceBook and Twitter and NetFlix to care about newsgroups. Face it :-) .

Interestingly, NNTP is actually a pretty useful protocol for the new
smartphone generation - bandwidth light, no graphics, etc. Play your
cards right and they may come back. I'm trying to get folks with
smartphones to download the SmartTap app for their Android phones or
iphones. It's simply a newsreader for smartphones. But I bet if I had
the NewsTap guy make a branded app for my newsserver and sell it for $5.99
on the appstores or whatever, the same people who are afraid to download
opera or Tbird or whatever would spend their money gladly like it was a
technological revolution. It's the branding.

Anyway, I'm still on NNTP because I like it. But if you're wanting info
over your Smartphone and a slowish 3G network, you could do worse than
NNTP. It's like we're back on the dialup/PPP days.

[Doug Freyburger]

Black Dragon wrote:

> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> I repeat - How many frmer readers and posters have you discussed the
>> reasons they left UseNet with? Over the years I found dozens. The
>> reason they left revolve around customer service perceptions having to
>> do with abusers. Forums delete abusive posts and ban abusers. useNet
>> only does that with a tiny fraction based on technicalities that users
>> do not care about.
>

> I know dozens of people who left Usenet when their ISP dropped what was
> a value added service. Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it? They
> didn't care about abuse as it's easily avoidable simply by ignoring it.
> What they cared about was free, reliable access, and when that was gone
> they moved on to other fora.

ISPs have evolved from providers of networked services to providers of
network. That's true. This creates an additional pool of people who
were dropped from UseNet. It's a different pool than the ones who left
of their own accord.

NSPs now exist to provide news as a separate service. Anyone can start
using them. Needing to sign up for yet another service would be a
hurdle but as Steve W pointed out people sign up for very many web
forums.

I can go to any of the web forums I remember signing up with. The ones
that are still alive all have a common feature. There is no abuse that
remains on their pages. Live forums stay purged of abusers and they
don't play technicality games that his consistutes abuse but that does
not. Users rarely care about such technicalities.

[tlvp]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 15:14:39 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Until you have discussed why they left with as many former readers and
> posters as you can find, the rest is speculation. Show me the data.

Forgive me please, Doug, but, unable as I am to communicate with the dead,
I have no data to show you, sorry. Cheers, -- tlvp

[tlvp]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:03:52 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon wrote:

> ... Usenet ... Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it?

I'm told (by a usually reliable source) that sonic.net is one, but I cannot
personally guarantee that they really do.

[Adam H. Kerman]

tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 May 2012 15:14:39 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger wrote:

>>Until you have discussed why they left with as many former readers and
>>posters as you can find, the rest is speculation. Show me the data.

>Forgive me please, Doug, but, unable as I am to communicate with the dead,
>I have no data to show you, sorry. Cheers, -- tlvp

Making jokes about Doug's religion on Usenet are so not funny.

[Steve Bonine]

On 5/23/12 12:36 AM, tlvp wrote:
> On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:03:52 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon wrote:
>
>> ... Usenet ... Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it?
>
> I'm told (by a usually reliable source) that sonic.net is one, but I cannot
> personally guarantee that they really do.

As of several months ago, this was true. I've not been in touch with
the person I knew who used it.

My ISP offers Usenet. They outsource to Giga. I do not avail myself of
their service because (1) I dislike Giga (2) They do the validation
using IP address, so if I am not using my ISP (e.g. at a hotel) I can't
connect.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:03:52 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon

<b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:

>
>I know dozens of people who left Usenet when their ISP dropped what was
>a value added service. Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it? They
>didn't care about abuse as it's easily avoidable simply by ignoring it.
>What they cared about was free, reliable access, and when that was gone
>they moved on to other fora.

My ISP Demon offered Usenet from the start (1992) and still does
though it's now part of Cable&Wireless group. I forget where the feed
comes from.

[Whiskers]

On 2012-05-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:03:52 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon
> <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>I know dozens of people who left Usenet when their ISP dropped what was
>>a value added service. Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it? They
>>didn't care about abuse as it's easily avoidable simply by ignoring it.
>>What they cared about was free, reliable access, and when that was gone
>>they moved on to other fora.
>
> My ISP Demon offered Usenet from the start (1992) and still does
> though it's now part of Cable&Wireless group. I forget where the feed
> comes from.
>
> Steve

Your Path header indicates "Highwinds Media".

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On 24 May 2012 17:08:00 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
wrote:

Mine says "Path: not-for-mail"

[John F. Morse]

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On 24 May 2012 17:08:00 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-05-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:03:52 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon
>>> <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know dozens of people who left Usenet when their ISP dropped what was
>>>> a value added service. Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it? They
>>>> didn't care about abuse as it's easily avoidable simply by ignoring it.
>>>> What they cared about was free, reliable access, and when that was gone
>>>> they moved on to other fora.
>>>>
>>> My ISP Demon offered Usenet from the start (1992) and still does
>>> though it's now part of Cable&Wireless group. I forget where the feed
>>> comes from.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>> Your Path header indicates "Highwinds Media".
>>
>
> Mine says "Path: not-for-mail"
>
> Steve
>

Highwinds Media strips off the Path header field data, and then inserts
the "not-for-mail" which is normally the first (rightmost) field entry
(the Path reads from right to left).

This makes articles appear like they were posted directly on a Highwinds
server, even if they were articles received from other NSP peers.

I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds appear
better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highwinds_Network_Group

http://www.highwinds.com

Highwinds was selling NNTP support to many ISPs when the ISPs were
providing their own in-house news servers running the Typhoon, Cyclone,
etc. software. Since most of the ISPs have dropped NNTP, Highwinds has
lost a large source of income.

To stay alive, Highwinds now runs their own server farms, either owning
them outright, or providing assistance to those remaining commercial
server providers.

http://www.newsgroupservers.net/usenetserver_newshosting_highwinds_review

That Website lists many of the resellers:

http://www.newsgroupservers.net/newsgroup_server_resellers

There are many "private" NSPs as well. Some are free of charge, and many
do not handle the binary groups which consume massive resources.

These NSPs usually do not run Highwinds software, even though the
software is Linux-based and open source, therefore free of cost. However
it may have some kind of activation code after a trial period expires.
It also appears to be discontinued as there is no information on their
Website, and their chat assistant doesn't know.

The most popular NNTP server software is INN, with Diablo a distant second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterNetNews

http://www.openusenet.org/diablo

You may be able to find out what software a NSP is using by connecting
with telnet.

telnet {nsp.fqdn} 119

Daily Top1000 ranking: http://top1000.anthologeek.net/topsum.current.txt


--
John

When a person has -- whether they knew it or not -- already
rejected the Truth, by what means do they discern a lie?

[Adam H. Kerman]

Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>On 2012-05-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
>>Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:

>>>I know dozens of people who left Usenet when their ISP dropped what was
>>>a value added service. Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it? They
>>>didn't care about abuse as it's easily avoidable simply by ignoring it.
>>>What they cared about was free, reliable access, and when that was gone
>>>they moved on to other fora.

>>My ISP Demon offered Usenet from the start (1992) and still does
>>though it's now part of Cable&Wireless group. I forget where the feed
>>comes from.

>Your Path header indicates "Highwinds Media".

Mine has sayings from fortune cookies.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>, on 05/24/2012

at 03:17 PM, "John F. Morse" <jo...@example.invalid> said:

>I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds
>appear better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.

Violating RFC 5537 makes them appear worse, not better.

[Whiskers]

On 2012-05-24, John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
> Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>> On 24 May 2012 17:08:00 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2012-05-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:03:52 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon
>>>> <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I know dozens of people who left Usenet when their ISP dropped what was
>>>>> a value added service. Are there any ISPs at all who still offer it? They
>>>>> didn't care about abuse as it's easily avoidable simply by ignoring it.
>>>>> What they cared about was free, reliable access, and when that was gone
>>>>> they moved on to other fora.
>>>>>
>>>> My ISP Demon offered Usenet from the start (1992) and still does
>>>> though it's now part of Cable&Wireless group. I forget where the feed
>>>> comes from.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>> Your Path header indicates "Highwinds Media".
>>>
>>
>> Mine says "Path: not-for-mail"
>>
>> Steve
>>

How the Path header is created - <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5536.txt>,
from section 3.1.5:
#v+
A <path-identity> is a name identifying a site. It takes the form of
a domain name having two or more components separated by dots, or a
single name with no dots (<path-nodot>).

Each <path-identity> in the <path-list> (which does not include the
<tail-entry>) indicates, from right to left, the successive agents
through which the article has passed. The use of the <diag-match>,
which appears as "!!", indicates that the agent to its left verified
the identity of the agent to its right before accepting the article
(whereas the <path-delimiter> "!" implies no such claim).

NOTE: Historically, the <tail-entry> indicated the name of the
sender. If not used for this purpose, the string "not-for-mail"
is often used instead (since at one time the whole path could be
used as a mail address for the sender).
#v-

> Highwinds Media strips off the Path header field data, and then inserts
> the "not-for-mail" which is normally the first (rightmost) field entry
> (the Path reads from right to left).
>
> This makes articles appear like they were posted directly on a Highwinds
> server, even if they were articles received from other NSP peers.
>
> I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds appear
> better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.

That would be very surprising, if true; it would also seem to mean that
everyone reading from a Highwinds server will only ever see a Path
header with Highwinds entries and no other NSPs, regardless of where the
article was injected.

[...]

[Mike Yetto]

Shmuel Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes and having writ moves on.

>In <jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>, on 05/24/2012
> at 03:17 PM, "John F. Morse" <jo...@example.invalid> said:

>>I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds
>>appear better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.

>Violating RFC 5537 makes them appear worse, not better.

Not if you think RFC stands for Rumanian Fried Chicken.

Mike "you must try the steaks" Yetto

[John F. Morse]

Whiskers wrote:

>> Highwinds Media strips off the Path header field data, and then inserts
>> the "not-for-mail" which is normally the first (rightmost) field entry
>> (the Path reads from right to left).
>>
>> This makes articles appear like they were posted directly on a Highwinds
>> server, even if they were articles received from other NSP peers.
>>
>> I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds appear
>> better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.
>>
>
> That would be very surprising, if true; it would also seem to mean that
> everyone reading from a Highwinds server will only ever see a Path
> header with Highwinds entries and no other NSPs, regardless of where the
> article was injected.
>
> [...]
>

Nothing surprising, except your insinuation that I was not telling the
truth! What, ... do you think I would lie to you?

Here is the header for your article, read on a Highwinds NSP server,
probably running Typhoon. Notice the Path.


Cancel-Lock: sha1:kj7XN2aKfFPokokwnPnAPb+B94E=
Date: 25 May 2012 16:25:50 GMT
From: Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <slrnjrvcl6.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Organization: is an alien concept
Path: not-for-mail
References: <86ipgof...@gray.siamics.net>
<jp8u9r$vdr$2...@speranza.aioe.org> <jp94m6$bdm$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<1kkd7fr.qq9r7p14nfp43N%sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk>
<jpatm7$5fd$1...@dont-email.me> <jpbrl8$1s8$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<jpdnmc$vfe$1...@dont-email.me> <1g09q7hxn1cwk.8...@40tude.net>
<jpgagv$oi0$1...@dont-email.me> <5ld6ep....@news.alt.net>
<e96qr79l3ug3vft8o...@4ax.com>
<slrnjrsqo8.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
<s7rsr7l0d86ivtuvf...@4ax.com>
<jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
Reply-To: Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk>
Subject: Re: newsreading over the Web
User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.0-40 (Linux)
X-Face:
(8UIp\C%,7b>N'Aa}l7v*-4z\fb2ab=[r*LKrwTU]>W\E]YS3Cb3mZo1Ty.t2%6_KsTV_
"Pmt)1xC~QW%bU/xrlDuux";aJOH0|Ka^MEDf"9Ck?FcYcR)aI~e[\"NW,mpyK}Q6dU[\BmvwRD00
xYer];5mR_!\-haGb/=!*bDWCm0~!G7ewqq7*|#g2#uEBhnKk60qLJ":i_#zfZ'cH`2a^!q_lzxh@
p& g^8<z5>HA
X-Received-Bytes: 4284
X-Trace: individual.net
uSGUwTiIGOfKhF76pKbK+AyVydS783DeqroaPAhdQPLJMvn1MtCVmkoMe+lRxNZLjQ
Xref: Hurricane news.software.readers:149270
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The xref for Hurricane indicates that Highwinds uses the Hurricane
numbering software for their articles.

http://www.highwinds-software.com/products/hurricane.php

The Typhoon info is here:
http://www.highwinds-software.com/products/typhoon.php

They might be using Tornado:
http://www.highwinds-software.com/products/tornado.php

The traceroute info:

. . .
14 * unknown.hwng.net (74.209.131.13) 47.811 ms 47.974 ms


The whois for hwng.net:


Registrant:
Highwinds Technology Management
Highwinds Technology Management
807 W. Morse Blvd Sulle 101
Winter Park, FL 32789
US
Email: dom...@highwinds.com

Registrar Name....: CORPORATE DOMAINS, INC.
Registrar Whois...: whois.corporatedomains.com
Registrar Homepage: www.cscprotectsbrands.com

Domain Name: hwng.net

Created on..............: Fri, Feb 09, 2007
Expires on..............: Sat, Feb 09, 2013
Record last updated on..: Thu, Sep 03, 2009

Administrative Contact:
Highwinds Network Group
Highwinds Network Group
807 W. Morse Blvd. Suite 101
Winter Park, FL 32789
US
Phone: +1.4072152400
Email: dnsa...@hwng.net

Technical Contact:
Highwinds Network Group
Highwinds Network Group
807 W. Morse Blvd. Suite 101
Winter Park, FL 32789
US
Phone: +1.4072152400
Email: dns...@hwng.net

DNS Servers:

ns2.hwng.net
ns1.hwng.net

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is your article header read on Eternal-September, an INN server:

Path: eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!de-l.enfer-du-nord.net!feeder2.enfer-du-nord.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: newsreading over the Web
Date: 25 May 2012 16:25:50 GMT
Organization: is an alien concept
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <slrnjrvcl6.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
References: <86ipgof...@gray.siamics.net>
<jp8u9r$vdr$2...@speranza.aioe.org> <jp94m6$bdm$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<1kkd7fr.qq9r7p14nfp43N%sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk>
<jpatm7$5fd$1...@dont-email.me> <jpbrl8$1s8$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<jpdnmc$vfe$1...@dont-email.me> <1g09q7hxn1cwk.8...@40tude.net>
<jpgagv$oi0$1...@dont-email.me> <5ld6ep....@news.alt.net>
<e96qr79l3ug3vft8o...@4ax.com>
<slrnjrsqo8.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
<s7rsr7l0d86ivtuvf...@4ax.com>
<jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
Reply-To: Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk>
X-Trace: individual.net uSGUwTiIGOfKhF76pKbK+AyVydS783DeqroaPAhdQPLJMvn1MtCVmkoMe+lRxNZLjQ
Cancel-Lock: sha1:kj7XN2aKfFPokokwnPnAPb+B94E=
X-Face: (8UIp\C%,7b>N'Aa}l7v*-4z\fb2ab=[r*LKrwTU]>W\E]YS3Cb3mZo1Ty.t2%6_KsTV_
"Pmt)1xC~QW%bU/xrlDuux";aJOH0|Ka^MEDf"9Ck?FcYcR)aI~e[\"NW,mpyK}Q6dU[\BmvwRD00
xYer];5mR_!\-haGb/=!*bDWCm0~!G7ewqq7*|#g2#uEBhnKk60qLJ":i_#zfZ'cH`2a^!q_lzxh@
p& g^8<z5>HA
User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.0-40 (Linux)
Xref: mx04.eternal-september.org news.software.readers:20599


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is your article header read on my news server, also an INN server:

Path: n102.xanadu-bbs.net!optima11.xanadu-bbs.net!optima5.xanadu-bbs.net!optima2.xanadu-bbs.net!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.mixmin.net!news.albasani.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: newsreading over the Web
Date: 25 May 2012 16:25:50 GMT
Organization: is an alien concept
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <slrnjrvcl6.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
References: <86ipgof...@gray.siamics.net>
<jp8u9r$vdr$2...@speranza.aioe.org> <jp94m6$bdm$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<1kkd7fr.qq9r7p14nfp43N%sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk>
<jpatm7$5fd$1...@dont-email.me> <jpbrl8$1s8$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<jpdnmc$vfe$1...@dont-email.me> <1g09q7hxn1cwk.8...@40tude.net>
<jpgagv$oi0$1...@dont-email.me> <5ld6ep....@news.alt.net>
<e96qr79l3ug3vft8o...@4ax.com>
<slrnjrsqo8.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
<s7rsr7l0d86ivtuvf...@4ax.com>
<jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
Reply-To: Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk>
X-Trace: individual.net uSGUwTiIGOfKhF76pKbK+AyVydS783DeqroaPAhdQPLJMvn1MtCVmkoMe+lRxNZLjQ
Cancel-Lock: sha1:kj7XN2aKfFPokokwnPnAPb+B94E=
X-Face: (8UIp\C%,7b>N'Aa}l7v*-4z\fb2ab=[r*LKrwTU]>W\E]YS3Cb3mZo1Ty.t2%6_KsTV_
"Pmt)1xC~QW%bU/xrlDuux";aJOH0|Ka^MEDf"9Ck?FcYcR)aI~e[\"NW,mpyK}Q6dU[\BmvwRD00
xYer];5mR_!\-haGb/=!*bDWCm0~!G7ewqq7*|#g2#uEBhnKk60qLJ":i_#zfZ'cH`2a^!q_lzxh@
p& g^8<z5>HA
User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.0-40 (Linux)
Xref: n102.xanadu-bbs.net news.software.readers:48651


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the header read on a Diablo news server:

Path: news.club.cc.cmu.edu!rutherfordium.club.cc.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: newsreading over the Web
Date: 25 May 2012 16:25:50 GMT
Organization: is an alien concept
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <slrnjrvcl6.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
References: <86ipgof...@gray.siamics.net>
<jp8u9r$vdr$2...@speranza.aioe.org> <jp94m6$bdm$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<1kkd7fr.qq9r7p14nfp43N%sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk>
<jpatm7$5fd$1...@dont-email.me> <jpbrl8$1s8$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<jpdnmc$vfe$1...@dont-email.me> <1g09q7hxn1cwk.8...@40tude.net>
<jpgagv$oi0$1...@dont-email.me> <5ld6ep....@news.alt.net>
<e96qr79l3ug3vft8o...@4ax.com>
<slrnjrsqo8.q...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
<s7rsr7l0d86ivtuvf...@4ax.com>
<jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
Reply-To: Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk>
X-Trace: individual.net uSGUwTiIGOfKhF76pKbK+AyVydS783DeqroaPAhdQPLJMvn1MtCVmkoMe+lRxNZLjQ
Cancel-Lock: sha1:kj7XN2aKfFPokokwnPnAPb+B94E=
X-Face: (8UIp\C%,7b>N'Aa}l7v*-4z\fb2ab=[r*LKrwTU]>W\E]YS3Cb3mZo1Ty.t2%6_KsTV_
"Pmt)1xC~QW%bU/xrlDuux";aJOH0|Ka^MEDf"9Ck?FcYcR)aI~e[\"NW,mpyK}Q6dU[\BmvwRD00
xYer];5mR_!\-haGb/=!*bDWCm0~!G7ewqq7*|#g2#uEBhnKk60qLJ":i_#zfZ'cH`2a^!q_lzxh@
p& g^8<z5>HA
User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.0-40 (Linux)
Xref: news.club.cc.cmu.edu news.software.readers:167296


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you now see why I said what I said?

[Shmuel Metz]

In <slrn201205251230...@may.eternal-september.org>, on
05/25/2012

at 12:32 PM, Mike Yetto <mye...@nycap.invalid> said:

>Shmuel Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes and having
>writ moves on. >In <jpm515$n4v$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>, on 05/24/2012
>> at 03:17 PM, "John F. Morse" <jo...@example.invalid> said:

>>>I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds
>>>appear better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.

>>Violating RFC 5537 makes them appear worse, not better.

>Not if you think RFC stands for Rumanian Fried Chicken.

I was going to give a[1] recipe but it's not politically correct. The
same recipe is also attributed to other ethnicities.

[1] Well, one of two, depending on whether the chicken complies
with 1149 or with 6214.

[Whiskers]

On 2012-05-25, John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
> Whiskers wrote:
>
>>> Highwinds Media strips off the Path header field data, and then inserts
>>> the "not-for-mail" which is normally the first (rightmost) field entry
>>> (the Path reads from right to left).
>>>
>>> This makes articles appear like they were posted directly on a Highwinds
>>> server, even if they were articles received from other NSP peers.
>>>
>>> I suspect it may be some kind of advertisement to make Highwinds appear
>>> better, or eliminating the names of other competitors.
>>>
>>
>> That would be very surprising, if true; it would also seem to mean that
>> everyone reading from a Highwinds server will only ever see a Path
>> header with Highwinds entries and no other NSPs, regardless of where the
>> article was injected.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>
>
> Nothing surprising, except your insinuation that I was not telling the
> truth! What, ... do you think I would lie to you?

My disbelief doesn't imply mendacity on your part. .

> Here is the header for your article, read on a Highwinds NSP server,
> probably running Typhoon. Notice the Path.

[...]

> Path: not-for-mail

[...]

> Xref: Hurricane news.software.readers:149270
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
>
> The xref for Hurricane indicates that Highwinds uses the Hurricane
> numbering software for their articles.

Whatever they're using, seems to be misconfigured - unless the wierdness
happens between them and your newsreader. Perhaps other Highwinds users
could check what they see in the Path header and report back here?

I'm intrigued by the spurious "MIME-Version" header too, which didn't
come from my usenet client or NSP.

[...]

> Here is your article header read on Eternal-September, an INN server:
>
> Path: eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org
!feeder.eternal-september.org!de-l.enfer-du-nord.net
!feeder2.enfer-du-nord.net
!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail

[...]

> Here is your article header read on my news server, also an INN server:
>
> Path: n102.xanadu-bbs.net!optima11.xanadu-bbs.net!optima5.xanadu-bbs.net
!optima2.xanadu-bbs.net!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net
!news.mixmin.net!news.albasani.net
!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail

[...]

> Here is the header read on a Diablo news server:
>
> Path: news.club.cc.cmu.edu!rutherfordium.club.cc.cmu.edu
!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu
!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail

[...]

> Do you now see why I said what I said?

Not entirely, as you clearly know what a correctly created Path header
looks like.

If you'd posted using a Highwinds server, your comments about what they
do to headers would have carried more weight.

If you're seeing a faulty Path header from your Highwinds feed, I think
you should be complaining to them about it!

[John F. Morse]

Whiskers wrote:

>> Do you now see why I said what I said?
>
> Not entirely, as you clearly know what a correctly created Path header
> looks like.

Then why do you question me? I don't care if you do, but there must be some
reason, like misunderstanding?

> If you'd posted using a Highwinds server, your comments about what they
> do to headers would have carried more weight.

Now I'm beginning to question your understanding.... ;-)

If I would have posted using a Highwinds server, then the Path would only show
the minimal "not-for-mail" (and possibly the .POSTED entry depending on the
software).

What I provided was a Path from a message that was posted on some other server
and fed to Highwinds. It shows there is nothing remaining in the Path to help
with a trace.

Since you still question me, this is a reply using my cable ISP's farmed-out
NSP, which is usenetserver.com, a Highwinds-owned NSP.

http://www.newsgroupservers.net/usenetserver_newshosting_highwinds_review

> If you're seeing a faulty Path header from your Highwinds feed, I think
> you should be complaining to them about it!

Complaining to them is like hammering a brick wall with my forehead. Too many
years of doing that without success.

My cable ISP has had about all they care to have concerning Highwinds, so I'm
not going to poke a hornet's nest, possibly resulting in their dropping the NSP.

I don't have a peer feed from Highwinds (nor their usenetserver.com), but I do
use pullnews (previously suck) to fetch articles form certain binary groups
which are either not carried by my peers, or my peers can't get some larger
articles because a size limit is imposed by their feeding peers.

There are only five low-traffic groups: alt.binaries.fonts, a.b.f.flood,
a.b.food, a.b.joker, and a.b.pictures.railroad.

http://linux.die.net/man/8/pullnews

http://oss.basjes.nl/SuckMT

[Steve Bonine]

On 5/27/12 6:16 AM, John F. Morse wrote:

> What I provided was a Path from a message that was posted on some other
> server and fed to Highwinds. It shows there is nothing remaining in the
> Path to help with a trace.

This is either an attempt to make it appear that large numbers of
articles are being posted from Highwinds, or simple incompetency.

I can't make a persuasive case for the first option. I don't see
Highwinds touting the statistic anywhere, and since no one is publishing
analyses based on the Path header, it's hard to see how they would reap
a marketing advantage.

Based on previous experiences with Highwind's "support", the second
option seems more likely.

I have to assume that the Usenet cash cow is going dry so the remaining
commercial NSPs need to cut costs to remain profitable. Reduction in
support staff would be a logical consequence.

[John F. Morse]

Steve Bonine wrote:
> On 5/27/12 6:16 AM, John F. Morse wrote:
>
>> What I provided was a Path from a message that was posted on some other
>> server and fed to Highwinds. It shows there is nothing remaining in the
>> Path to help with a trace.
>
> This is either an attempt to make it appear that large numbers of
> articles are being posted from Highwinds, or simple incompetency.

Not just articles "posted" on Highwinds (and their partners), but also
their received articles from their peers, and their transit articles --
those received from the peers and then fed to all their peers which are
not listed in the article's Path, (and which want the group per their
subscription list in the newsfeeds file).

Highwinds had the Path when they received the articles, because the Path
determines which servers have already seen that article, and naturally
do not want it sent back to them. IOW, I don't believe Highwinds would
blast every received article back out to all of its peers.

When someone pulls/sucks an article from Highwinds, using Pullnews,
Suck, SuckMT, Leafnode, RumorMill, etc., and since there is no path to
use for filtering sites out of the feed, the server will send it on to
its peers. Everyone is going to get the article, or at least the M-ID if
using the old IHAVE/SENDME protocol, because the Path is empty.

They will be sent the M-ID, and then must refuse the article based on
already having seen the unique M-ID field. This wastes bandwidth, and
wastes time when the receiving peer has to access its history database
for checking the M-ID.

Newer servers (current protocol) use the CHECK and TAKETHIS commands,
but again here, the CHECK is sending the M-ID to every peer since there
is no Path entry listing them. If they already have that M-ID in their
history, then they refuse the article, just like the IHAVE protocol.

Nowadays the pipelined streaming protocol is used. The MODE STREAM is
faster than the CHECK and TAKETHIS, but sends the complete article,
which may be accepted or rejected (not refused). It makes sense to send
articles as a stream since articles are assumed to be desired.

The MODE STREAM eliminates the bandwidth used for all the handshaking,
again assuming that there is the "pre-filtering" based on the Path
header field, telling a server not to send an article back to a site
which already has the article.

Having the correct Path, listing all those servers that have handled the
article, eliminates these wasted resources.

In the case of the same article arriving from two or more news server
peers, which does happen often, it will be accepted from the one having
the fastest link, and the others will be sent a reject code (not a
refused code).

MODE STREAM: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc4644.html#sec-2.3

CHECK: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc4644.html#sec-2.4

TAKETHIS: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc4644.html#sec-2.5

> I can't make a persuasive case for the first option. I don't see
> Highwinds touting the statistic anywhere, and since no one is
> publishing analyses based on the Path header, it's hard to see how
> they would reap a marketing advantage.

How about this:

The Top1000 Usenet Servers analysis is based on the Path information:

http://top1000.anthologeek.net/#what

Highwinds is usually at #1 or #2 in the listing:

http://top1000.anthologeek.net/topsum.current.txt

There are currently 2076 news servers in the full listing:

http://top1000.anthologeek.net/full.current.txt

There are currently 162 participants who are reporting their Path
information, either daily, weekly, or monthly:

http://top1000.anthologeek.net/participants.current.txt

It is interesting to see the top three, Highwinds (and their
affiliates), Giganews, and Xsnews are not even contributors to the
Top1000 site. They reap their high numbers from inpaths tallies
submitted by INN and Diablo news server administrators.

> Based on previous experiences with Highwind's "support", the second
> option seems more likely.

I won't disagree with that view.

> I have to assume that the Usenet cash cow is going dry so the
> remaining commercial NSPs need to cut costs to remain profitable.
> Reduction in support staff would be a logical consequence.

That is what many NSPs (and ISPs) did years ago. I've found some running
on autopilot long after the administrator departed for greener pastures.
Nobody remaining knows what to do with the news server(s)!

[Whiskers]

On 2012-05-27, John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
> Whiskers wrote:
>
>>> Do you now see why I said what I said?
>>
>> Not entirely, as you clearly know what a correctly created Path header
>> looks like.
>
>
> Then why do you question me? I don't care if you do, but there must be some
> reason, like misunderstanding?

Until you provided evidence that you do indeed know what a Path header
should look like, I had no reason to suppose that you'd ever seen
anything other than the wierd abomination you quoted.

>> If you'd posted using a Highwinds server, your comments about what they
>> do to headers would have carried more weight.
>
> Now I'm beginning to question your understanding.... ;-)

Accusing Highwinds of doing something whilst not yourself posting via
Highwinds, leaves room for doubt as to the accuracy of your accusation.

> If I would have posted using a Highwinds server, then the Path would
> only show the minimal "not-for-mail" (and possibly the .POSTED entry
> depending on the software).

To you apparently, if you read from Highwinds. Those reading from other
servers would have seen a Path header starting with Highwinds and
ending with the server being read from - like this:

Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com
!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!post01.iad.highwinds-media.com
!newsfe13.iad.POSTED!00000000!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: Would you put it quite like this?
From: MartinS <m...@my.place.invalid>
References: <yghgnbusj3qn$.nrynou1p...@40tude.net>
<XnsA0454EFA...@emteedee.invalid>
User-Agent: Xnews/2006.08.24
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3M1or.66686$T5....@newsfe13.iad>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.235.244.2
X-Complaints-To: ab...@cogeco.net
X-Trace: newsfe13.iad 1335928959 24.235.244.2 (Wed, 02 May 2012
03:22:39 UTC)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 03:22:39 UTC
Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 23:23:13 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 1130
Xref: uni-berlin.de news.software.readers:277132

> What I provided was a Path from a message that was posted on some
> other server and fed to Highwinds. It shows there is nothing remaining
> in the Path to help with a trace.

You did indeed, when pressed for evidence.

> Since you still question me,

I'm not yet convinced that there isn't something odd happening after the
messages leave Highwinds and reach you. The spurious MIME header
that also appeared in your example, is something I'd normally expect
only to be inserted by a usenet client (and it wasn't put there by the
sender's client, namely mine). Where did that header come from, and
how and why? (That can go unanswered unless the answer is easy - and
of course I can work out 'Highwinds must have done it', that's /too/
easy!).

> this is a reply using my cable ISP's farmed-out
> NSP, which is usenetserver.com, a Highwinds-owned NSP.
>
> http://www.newsgroupservers.net/usenetserver_newshosting_highwinds_review

And here are the headers I see (References edited for clarity):

Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com.
!npeer01.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
!feed-me.highwinds-media.com.!post02.iad.highwinds-media.com
!EVERESTKC.NET-a2kHrUvQQWlmc!not-for-mail
Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 06:16:18 -0500
From: "John F. Morse" <jo...@example.invalid>
Reply-To: dont.bother
Organization: Xanadu BBS
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20101027)
MIME-Version: 1.0

Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: newsreading over the Web

References: <86ipgof...@gray.siamics.net> [...]
<jpoetc$ano$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>
<slrnjs2h74.n...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
In-Reply-To: <slrnjs2h74.n...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <54004$4fc20e9d$4aded8bf$10...@EVERESTKC.NET>
X-Complaints-To: ab...@usenetserver.com
Lines: 61
X-Trace: 540044fc20e9def7b7d1a10950
X-Received-Bytes: 3475
Xref: uni-berlin.de news.software.readers:277495

None of the servers in that Path admits to being "Usenetserver", but
the "EVERESTKC.NET" in the Path and MID must have come from somewhere.

Some 'outsourced' NSPs do get subsumed in the Path header, eg:

Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com.
!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
!feed-me.highwinds-media.com.!post01.iad.highwinds-media.com
!newsfe13.iad.POSTED!00000000!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: Would you put it quite like this?
From: MartinS <m...@my.place.invalid>
References: <yghgnbusj3qn$.nrynou1p...@40tude.net>
<XnsA0454EFA...@emteedee.invalid>
User-Agent: Xnews/2006.08.24
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3M1or.66686$T5....@newsfe13.iad>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.235.244.2
X-Complaints-To: ab...@cogeco.net
X-Trace: newsfe13.iad 1335928959 24.235.244.2 (Wed, 02 May 2012
03:22:39 UTC)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 03:22:39 UTC
Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 23:23:13 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 1130
Xref: uni-berlin.de news.software.readers:277132

But others don't (from another group):

Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com.
!npeer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!spln
!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn
From: R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: American Eurovision
Date: 26 May 2012 20:10:08 -0700
Organization: 16' Violone 8' Principal 8' Lieblichflote 8' Vox Humana
4' Nachthorn III Zimbel Tremulant
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <jps5u...@drn.newsguy.com>
References: <a2coi7...@mid.individual.net>
<lWGxR$JpOTw...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pb83f5205d91a81d85adcc2cab8d9491baa5a48df8024723b.newsdawg.com
User-Agent: Direct Read News 5.60
X-Received-Bytes: 1237
Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.usage.english:1866714

I haven't yet found an example of Highwinds as a 'transit' server, ie
when it should be in the middle of the Path.

>> If you're seeing a faulty Path header from your Highwinds feed, I think
>> you should be complaining to them about it!
>
> Complaining to them is like hammering a brick wall with my forehead. Too many
> years of doing that without success.
>
> My cable ISP has had about all they care to have concerning Highwinds, so I'm
> not going to poke a hornet's nest, possibly resulting in their dropping the NSP.
>
> I don't have a peer feed from Highwinds (nor their usenetserver.com), but I do
> use pullnews (previously suck) to fetch articles form certain binary groups
> which are either not carried by my peers, or my peers can't get some larger
> articles because a size limit is imposed by their feeding peers.
>
> There are only five low-traffic groups: alt.binaries.fonts, a.b.f.flood,
> a.b.food, a.b.joker, and a.b.pictures.railroad.

I have no interest in binary groups.

> http://linux.die.net/man/8/pullnews
>
> http://oss.basjes.nl/SuckMT

Reading between the lines of your posts in this thread, I infer that
"Xanadu-BBS-net" is in fact a conventional news-server, despite the
name, and that it is publicly accessible and well peered, and that you
are the administrator of it not merely a user. If that is so, then I
can understand why you might be annoyed that didn't know.

[John F. Morse]

Whiskers wrote:
> On 2012-05-27, John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Whiskers wrote:
>>
>>>> Do you now see why I said what I said?
>>>>
>>> Not entirely, as you clearly know what a correctly created Path header
>>> looks like.
>>>
>> Then why do you question me? I don't care if you do, but there must be some
>> reason, like misunderstanding?
>>
>
> Until you provided evidence that you do indeed know what a Path header
> should look like, I had no reason to suppose that you'd ever seen
> anything other than the wierd abomination you quoted.
>

OK, I'll accept your appearance that everything you read must be proven
as a fact.

Having read many run-of-the-mill statements by unknown (unqualified)
people, who obviously only have a minimal understanding of the subjects,
I'm not so different myself.

I am a believer in what I read on a sign posted on a backbar many years ago:

"In God we trust -- All others, cash!"

>>> If you'd posted using a Highwinds server, your comments about what they
>>> do to headers would have carried more weight.
>>>
>> Now I'm beginning to question your understanding.... ;-)
>>
>
> Accusing Highwinds of doing something whilst not yourself posting via
> Highwinds, leaves room for doubt as to the accuracy of your accusation.
>

Again, I see your point here concerning suspicion. I'll attempt to make
myself more clear and hope you will believe what I post is the truth. I
have no reason to lie.

>> If I would have posted using a Highwinds server, then the Path would
>> only show the minimal "not-for-mail" (and possibly the .POSTED entry
>> depending on the software).
>>
>
> To you apparently, if you read from Highwinds. Those reading from other
> servers would have seen a Path header starting with Highwinds and
> ending with the server being read from - like this:
>

I am aware of what the Path looks like when reading from other servers,
but the whole point of my original comment was when reading from Highwinds.

The Path is stripped in that case. Their software does it. Why I do not
know, and I doubt if they care to tell me.

If an article is posted on Highwinds, their server(s) are in the Path
when the article is read on any other NSP. It must be there or all of
these other servers would attempt to send the article back to Highwinds.
That is the main function of the Path -- to stop propagating articles
back to servers that have previously seen the articles.

The Path can also be used for tracing, but any article can propagate
over many different paths. Additionally, tracing using the Path will
only show successfully propagated articles. Those which were lost have
no Path to examine! So it is rather limited to showing a NSP
administrator which peer sent the article.

Then you must be careful which newsreader you use. For instance, Pan
will show the same article and header no matter which news server you
use to examine that article. Once downloaded, only the first article
will be presented.

>> What I provided was a Path from a message that was posted on some
>> other server and fed to Highwinds. It shows there is nothing remaining
>> in the Path to help with a trace.
>>
>
> You did indeed, when pressed for evidence.
>

Wasn't that in my original message? Or at least my reply to your
original disbelief?

>> Since you still question me,
>>
>
> I'm not yet convinced that there isn't something odd happening after the
> messages leave Highwinds and reach you. The spurious MIME header
> that also appeared in your example, is something I'd normally expect
> only to be inserted by a usenet client (and it wasn't put there by the
> sender's client, namely mine). Where did that header come from, and
> how and why? (That can go unanswered unless the answer is easy - and
> of course I can work out 'Highwinds must have done it', that's /too/
> easy!).
>

I don't find the "MIME-Version 1.0" in your articles. Only in an
article I posted using Thunderbird (quoted further down). Perhaps to
support the Format-Flowed?

Don't know, and don't really care to spend time on this fork from the
original Path topic, which itself is a fork from the original subject. ;-)

My posting and reading access was directly to and from Highwinds for
this discussion, unless I use a different NSP for an example. I do have
reader access to 32 NNTP (NNRP) Usenet servers around the world. They
are numerous, but needed for propagation testing. I use my own server
for most all of my Usenet (and private groups) activities.

Highwinds purchased usenetserver.com, and is now providing the service.

My cable ISP has no physical news servers. They simply forward any
request for "news.everestkc.net" (and others, see below) to the
Highwinds IP(s), where the servers are located.

Additionally the Everest cable ISP was purchased by SureWest (of
California). In every case I've tried, either FQDN can be used.

A little history....

Back in 2002 when Everest was started, I was a Time Warner (RoadRunner)
subscriber (1999-2002), as well as AT&T Worldnet (1996-2009) for backup
connectivity, I formerly used Earthlink (1998-1999), SBIS (swbell.net)
(1997-1998), and PSI-Interramp (1995-1996). My son worked in the AOL NOC
in 1996, so I had access there FWIW.

After fighting Time Warner constantly for the previous six months of
poor or no service. I switched to Everest on November 7, 2002. Time
Warner had reported a "bad splice" -- their lingo for the center
conductor in a coax connector at a device. When cold (nights without
sunlight) the coax was contracting and the slack loop was insufficient,
so the center conductor was pulling out of the connector.

I might add that I was a CATV designer for Broadband Data Communications
(bdc.net) in 1998-2000, mainly for Jones Intercable (now owned by
Comcast), who served Independence and Blue Springs, Missouri, and
Olathe, Kansas. I also designed for Time Warner serving the Greater
Kansas City Area, but primarily the Johnson County, Kansas portion,
which formerly was Telecable, and TCI before that, dating back into the
1960s,

I also designed the complete city of Belleville, Kansas, and most of the
DelMarVa area on the East Coast. These all were upgrades for
bidirectional CATV, higher bandwidth, and for Internet over cable.

Another project I designed was for the Los Angeles Public Schools, which
was a CCTV system. LA schools tend to have construction like a "strip
mall" where students enter individual classrooms from an exterior door,
and use multiple structures.

When the CATV industry upgrade bloom slowed down, and since I was paid
on "piece work" which was now running thin to nothing, I resigned and
moved to Black and Veatch, a major engineering business in Overland
Park, Kansas. http://bv.com

In the Telecom Division at BV, I designed several Metricom sites
(Internet via radio, similar to cellular telephone), before Metricom
experienced financial problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metricom

With my previous CATV experience, I then spent a few months leading a
group investigating an AT&T CATV plant upgrade in the Chicago, Illinois,
area. We had to review every design map, tally every device, cable,
strand, etc., and submit the results. This was for a legal action
against one or more contractors who claimed more than AT&T believed.

I designed most of the fiber ring around San Jose, California.

I Investigated local government (city/county) ordinances, laws and
building permit mandates in several states, for either increasing the
height of cell towers, or building new towers, for adding additional
Sprint cellular antennas.

My final project at BV Telecom Division was using a pole load program to
compute the requirements of utility poles which were going to be used to
support the upcoming new Everest plant. So I actually assisted in the
design of the Everest ISP I now use.

Then several dozen engineers and designers, who were stationed in south
Asia, were sent back to BV headquarters because GE lost their contract
to build nuclear power plants. Had something to do with a new
king/dictator/whatever not wanting nukes. Since these guys had more
seniority than me, I was laid off.

On my way out the door, I stopped by the Advanced Technologies Devision
at BV, to see if they had any work. I had designed a few projects for
them in the past when in Telecom, so I knew a few of the designers,
engineers and supervisors.

My services were needed, so I moved to ATD, working primarily in the
electrical engineering discipline. I designed huge server farms for
Sprint, Genuity and 360 Networks, where hundreds of cabinets were used,
and a dozen 100 kW diesel generators for emergency power (computers and
the necessary air conditioning load). Security, alarms, telephone,
racks, fiber, etc.

Then the "Dot Com" bubble burst. Laid off again, I checked the BV Power
Division on the fifth floor, and they hired me. Here I designed power
generating plant retrofits. That assignment lasted about six months, and
the work ran out.

The last stop was the BV Power Transmissio9n Division. They didn't have
enough work to hire me, and since I didn't care to work in their Water
Division, I left. Spent the next two years in a small (two-man) CNC
machine shop, running VMCs at night, building parts for airport electronics.

Getting back to Everest....

Everest never built their own in-house news servers. They farmed out the
task to newsfeeds.com and had at least four different FQDNs available,
which were forwarded as shown here:

news.everestkc.net ==> corp-goliath.newsfeeds.com 128.242.171.114
30, 492 groups, fast

news-binaries.everestkc.net ==> corp-binaries.newsfeeds.com 128.242.173.230
7177 groups

news-corp.everestkc.net ==> corp-news.newsfeeds.com 209.189.89.243
113,476 groups, very slow

news-goliath.everestkc.net ==> no record remaining
8703 groups, slow

I don't know if newsfeeds.com was sold to usenetserver.com, or if it was
another outsourcing. According to the cross reference, requests for
newsfeeds.com were "Redirected to others" in their table at:
http://www.newsgroupservers.net/newsgroup_server_resellers

Some time after, Highwinds outright bought usenetserver.com, so they are
now the owner and NSP (they reportedly do not sell to individuals
though). See:
http://www.newsgroupservers.net/usenetserver_newshosting_highwinds_review

On February 21, 2007, Everest moved one of my IPs to their
newly-assigned netblock for growth. I discovered I could no longer
access usenetserver.com using this new 74.x.x.x netblock. I checked with
usenetserver.com directly because nobody at Everest had enough
experience to even understand what I was reporting.

The smart-ass employee at usenetserver.com was telling me I need
authentication (username and password). I told him that I don't need any
authentication, didn't for the old IP, and don't on the 64.x.x.x IP
which didn't change. My authentication is by cable modem MAC, and
assignment to a particular cable node. Nobody can access
usenetserver.com through a cable ISP unless that ISP authorizes the
access. Plus the ISP is paying for the news service that the NSP is
supposed to provide.

Well, this fiasco went round and round, and after consulting with
Everest management (some who used to work with me at BDC), I was told
usenetserver.com actually blocked Everest because someone had hacked
into Everest and stolen a bunch of passwords, then posted a lot of spam.

I don't swallow because there are no passwords -- no authentication.
Usenetserver.com is/was run by a bunch of nincompoops, or liars. Now
Highwinds is the owner. Go figger.

Afterwards I attempted to talk Everest into setting up their own Usenet
server(s). The person qualified to do this work checked with the new
owners of Everest, SureWest, and informed me that SureWest didn't want
to invest in news servers. Oh well. An "A" for trying.

What about the here and now?

traceroute to news.everestkc.net (74.209.131.13), 30 hops max, 40 byte
packets
15 unknown.hwng.net (74.209.131.13) 54.383 ms 54.718 ms 54.959 ms

traceroute to news-binaries.everestkc.net (74.209.131.13), 30 hops max,
40 byte packets
14 * unknown.hwng.net (74.209.131.13) 47.054 ms 47.245 ms

traceroute to news-corp.everestkc.net (74.209.131.13), 30 hops max, 40
byte packets
15 * unknown.hwng.net (74.209.131.13) 62.497 ms 62.743 ms

traceroute to news-goliath.everestkc.net (74.209.131.13), 30 hops max,
40 byte packets
12 unknown.hwng.net (74.209.131.13) 68.909 ms * *

As you can see they all resolve to 74.209.131.13. The "hwng" stands for
High Winds News Groups, or something similar.

john@noc:~$ whois 74.209.131.13

UNS Holdings, Inc. HIGHWINDS3-UNS2 (NET-74-209-130-0-1) 74.209.130.0 -
74.209.131.255
Highwinds Network Group, Inc. HIGHWINDS3 (NET-74-209-128-0-1)
74.209.128.0 - 74.209.143.255

I suspect "UNS" is the usenetserver.com name that Highwinds uses for
tracking where articles arrived.

Correct, it is added by Highwinds to signify the message was posted by
someone connecting (through usenetserver.com) from an Everest account.
Evidentially Highwinds has totally dropped the usenetserver.com from the
path, using only their own servers and FQDNs.

But when the traceroute and whois are compared, the truth is exposed.
See my previous comment, and also realize that an incoming.conf file
configuration can allow using an alias. The M-ID was supplied by a
Highwinds server.

> Some 'outsourced' NSPs do get subsumed in the Path header, eg:
>
> Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com.
> !npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
> !feed-me.highwinds-media.com.!post01.iad.highwinds-media.com
> !newsfe13.iad.POSTED!00000000!not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: news.software.readers
> Subject: Re: Would you put it quite like this?
> From: MartinS <m...@my.place.invalid>
> References: <yghgnbusj3qn$.nrynou1p...@40tude.net>
> <XnsA0454EFA...@emteedee.invalid>
> User-Agent: Xnews/2006.08.24
> Lines: 19
> Message-ID: <3M1or.66686$T5....@newsfe13.iad>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.235.244.2
> X-Complaints-To: ab...@cogeco.net
> X-Trace: newsfe13.iad 1335928959 24.235.244.2 (Wed, 02 May 2012
> 03:22:39 UTC)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 03:22:39 UTC
> Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 23:23:13 -0400
> X-Received-Bytes: 1130
> Xref: uni-berlin.de news.software.readers:277132
>

There are no outsourced NSP in that header. The article was POSTED on
the "newsfe13.iad.POSTED" server at Highwinds (see the "iad" and compare
with the next server in the Path).

Highwinds then sent it to news2.google.com which sent it to
postnews.google.com. From there it went to fu-berlin.de and then to
uni-berlin.de which should be the server where you read it (or possibly
you use and removed the hop to individual.net).

> But others don't (from another group):
>
> Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com.
> !npeer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
> !feed-me.highwinds-media.com!spln
> !extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn
> From: R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
> Subject: Re: American Eurovision
> Date: 26 May 2012 20:10:08 -0700
> Organization: 16' Violone 8' Principal 8' Lieblichflote 8' Vox Humana
> 4' Nachthorn III Zimbel Tremulant
> Lines: 20
> Message-ID: <jps5u...@drn.newsguy.com>
> References: <a2coi7...@mid.individual.net>
> <lWGxR$JpOTw...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: pb83f5205d91a81d85adcc2cab8d9491baa5a48df8024723b.newsdawg.com
> User-Agent: Direct Read News 5.60
> X-Received-Bytes: 1237
> Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.usage.english:1866714
>
> I haven't yet found an example of Highwinds as a 'transit' server, ie
> when it should be in the middle of the Path.
>

How about these from the above Path header:

npeer03.iad.highwinds-media.com

news.highwinds-media.com

feed-me.highwinds-media.com

Even the extra.newsguy.com is a transit server for Newsguy, another
Highwinds partner.

Perhaps the newsp.newsguy.com is a "News Portal" meaning a reader
server, or a portal from the drn server.

Newsguy is famous for fiddling with the header in order to hide their
massive spam flooding.

Check these links (maybe search for "newsguy" to easily locate the
references):

http://www.mixmin.net/cleanfeed/regex.html#bad_nph_hosts (the
bad_nph_hosts parameter description)

Such twiddling as "news7" without a FQDN, and even "newsdawg.com" are used.

http://www.mixmin.net/cleanfeed/files.html#local_flag_spamsource (an
example of the local_flag_spamsource parameter description)

The evidence points to questionable operations of Highwinds and their
other brands and partners.

> Reading between the lines of your posts in this thread, I infer that
> "Xanadu-BBS-net" is in fact a conventional news-server, despite the
> name, and that it is publicly accessible and well peered, and that you
> are the administrator of it not merely a user. If that is so, then I
> can understand why you might be annoyed that didn't know.
>

Yes, xanadu-bbs.net is a conventional news server farm operating
24/7/365, using multiple INN 2.5.2 servers. I am the sole administrator
and also the owner, and completely finance the operation.

It is a "private project" accessible by invitation only, and peers with
multiple Usenet servers around the world.

Today it ranks at #32 on the Top1000 Usenet server list at:
http://top1000.anthologeek.net/topsum.current.txt Last week it was
ranked at #26. Today there are six news servers which I peer with in the
top 30, and three in the top 10.

Used not only for standard Usenet text groups, and a half-dozen binary
groups, it has 32,679 newsgroups in the active file, of which 481 groups
are private and not propagated to Usenet.

Beside normal newsgroup access, the mission includes development and
testing, and supporting Usenet with a multiple transit server configuration.

The NNTP operation originally started in 2000, using the free Highwinds
Twister server, which later became bCandid's property. Then I switched
over to using RumorMill software on a 120 MHz Power Macintosh 7600 in 2001.

In 2005, Debian 3.1 "Sarge" and INN 2.4.3 were used for the operation.
Today the OS is all Debian 6.0.4 "Squeeze" and INN 2.5.2 for the
production servers.

In 1977 the original "Xanadu BBS" was a private dial-up BBS running
homemade software on an Apple ][ computer. It was improved over the
years, and wound up running the Hermes BBS software on a Mac Plus in
1990, then on a Mac IIsi in 1995, until all the users departed for the
Internet around 2001. At the height we had several hundred local users,
and three phone lines.

I just kept using the name.

[Whiskers]

On 2012-05-28, John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:
> Whiskers wrote:
>> On 2012-05-27, John F. Morse <jo...@example.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> I am a believer in what I read on a sign posted on a backbar many years ago:
>
> "In God we trust -- All others, cash!"

... and we got a 'banker's report' on God first.

[...]

>>> If I would have posted using a Highwinds server, then the Path would
>>> only show the minimal "not-for-mail" (and possibly the .POSTED entry
>>> depending on the software).
>>>
>>
>> To you apparently, if you read from Highwinds. Those reading from other
>> servers would have seen a Path header starting with Highwinds and
>> ending with the server being read from - like this:
>>
>
>
> I am aware of what the Path looks like when reading from other servers,
> but the whole point of my original comment was when reading from Highwinds.
>
> The Path is stripped in that case. Their software does it. Why I do not
> know, and I doubt if they care to tell me.
>
> If an article is posted on Highwinds, their server(s) are in the Path
> when the article is read on any other NSP. It must be there or all of
> these other servers would attempt to send the article back to Highwinds.
> That is the main function of the Path -- to stop propagating articles
> back to servers that have previously seen the articles.
>
> The Path can also be used for tracing, but any article can propagate
> over many different paths. Additionally, tracing using the Path will
> only show successfully propagated articles. Those which were lost have
> no Path to examine! So it is rather limited to showing a NSP
> administrator which peer sent the article.

Yes, and some people like to use it to filter out unwanted articles or
distinguish fake from genuine use of a known email address.

> Then you must be careful which newsreader you use. For instance, Pan
> will show the same article and header no matter which news server you
> use to examine that article. Once downloaded, only the first article
> will be presented.

Pan, like Leafnode, Noffle, et al, keeps the first instance of an
article that it finds even if that article can also be found on other
servers that Pan connects to. It only has one 'spool' or article
database, with no duplicates.


[...]

> A little history....

All interesting

[...]

Thanks for the CV :)) Sadly I'm not in a position to offer anyone
employment, in any capacity.

> Getting back to Everest....

[...]

Did you try to allocate an MID of your own, to have it over-written? I
wouldn't tolerate that.

>> Some 'outsourced' NSPs do get subsumed in the Path header, eg:
>>
>> Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com.
>> !npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com
>> !feed-me.highwinds-media.com.!post01.iad.highwinds-media.com
>> !newsfe13.iad.POSTED!00000000!not-for-mail
>> Newsgroups: news.software.readers
>> Subject: Re: Would you put it quite like this?
>> From: MartinS <m...@my.place.invalid>
>> References: <yghgnbusj3qn$.nrynou1p...@40tude.net>
>> <XnsA0454EFA...@emteedee.invalid>
>> User-Agent: Xnews/2006.08.24
>> Lines: 19
>> Message-ID: <3M1or.66686$T5....@newsfe13.iad>
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.235.244.2
>> X-Complaints-To: ab...@cogeco.net
>> X-Trace: newsfe13.iad 1335928959 24.235.244.2 (Wed, 02 May 2012
>> 03:22:39 UTC)
>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 03:22:39 UTC
>> Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 23:23:13 -0400
>> X-Received-Bytes: 1130
>> Xref: uni-berlin.de news.software.readers:277132
>>
>
>
> There are no outsourced NSP in that header. The article was POSTED on
> the "newsfe13.iad.POSTED" server at Highwinds (see the "iad" and compare
> with the next server in the Path).

But note the Cogeco 'abuse' address; that seems to me to indicate
Cogeco outsourcing to Highwinds, but not appearing in the Path.

> Highwinds then sent it to news2.google.com which sent it to
> postnews.google.com. From there it went to fu-berlin.de and then to
> uni-berlin.de which should be the server where you read it (or possibly
> you use and removed the hop to individual.net).

In Path headers, 'Individual.net' is 'uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de'. The
NSP is operated commercially by the computer department of Freie
Universität Berlin; before going commercial, they were identified as
'News.CIS.DFN.DE' (which now identifies a service for members of the
university only).

[...]

> The evidence points to questionable operations of Highwinds and their
> other brands and partners.

Which probably won't stop unless they are threatened convincingly with a
UDP - which would take a /lot/ of doing.

>> Reading between the lines of your posts in this thread, I infer that
>> "Xanadu-BBS-net" is in fact a conventional news-server, despite the
>> name, and that it is publicly accessible and well peered, and that you
>> are the administrator of it not merely a user. If that is so, then I
>> can understand why you might be annoyed that didn't know.
>>
>
>
> Yes, xanadu-bbs.net is a conventional news server farm operating
> 24/7/365, using multiple INN 2.5.2 servers. I am the sole administrator
> and also the owner, and completely finance the operation.
>
> It is a "private project" accessible by invitation only, and peers with
> multiple Usenet servers around the world.

[...]

> In 1977 the original "Xanadu BBS" was a private dial-up BBS running
> homemade software on an Apple ][ computer. It was improved over the
> years, and wound up running the Hermes BBS software on a Mac Plus in
> 1990, then on a Mac IIsi in 1995, until all the users departed for the
> Internet around 2001. At the height we had several hundred local users,
> and three phone lines.
>
> I just kept using the name.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. I believe there are still some
'real' BBSs running; there's still, thank goodness, a lot more to 'the
internet' than merely 'the web'.