NG layout and 5.0 Navigator
taylor
better taken up with Netscape executives in general and not on the
Mozilla list. However since the status of NGlayout is part of Mozilla's
time table I think it's appropriate.
I think that it would be a disastrous error for Netscape to release 5.0
without 100% of CSS working 100% correctly. This will take NGlayout.
Incremental fixes belong in an incremental release (4.5) of navigator.
If NGlayout is not included in the initial release of 5.0 Navigator than
developers cannot be assured of a broad adoption by Netscape's user base
and cannot take advantage of CSS. Web developers and designers spend far
too much time debugging the visual rendering of pages, and undo load is
passed off to our servers conditionalizing around problems. CSS is the
right way to do it and is the standard.
RDF, XML, Smart browsing, Mail, News, calendar are all useful, natural
extensions to the product and its suite of applications. However they
need to be built upon a solid foundation that complies with specs.
Designers need CSS to be 100% complete, and 100% correct. Developers
need the W3C DOM to be 100% complete, and 100% correct. I urge Netscape
to delay the release of Navigator 5.0 until it can include NGlayout with
a 100% complete, 100% correct CSS and DOM implementation.
Which brings me to the Mozilla question. What does the NGlayout group
need to get the project done? While not able to directly contribute to
the code base I can evangelize the needs of the group through Webmonkey
user base. What is needed to get NGlayout in 5.0?
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- "You are in a maze of twisty portal sites, all alike."
---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
tay...@wired.com
Todd Fahrner
>I think that it would be a disastrous error for Netscape to release 5.0
>without 100% of CSS working 100% correctly.
Me too.
Angus Davis wrote:
>Integrating a new layout engine into the old mozilla codebase is no easy
>task. You're
>right to point out that NGLayout would need to be feature complete, bug free, and
>backwards compatible with content designed for Nav4.x.
This last bit troubles me. It seems to me that full backwards compatibility
would commit you to extensive emulation of Nav 3/4's anomalous behaviors in
NGLayout. I hand author complicated layouts using tables and all the other
tricks, and it's basically a black art, witness the difficulties of
"wysiwyg" editors. There's a whole lot of undefined (or at least really,
really, really screwy) behavior going on in the current model, and this is
what authors have been authoring to for a few years now. This is especially
the case with CSS support, but table layout too (esp when relative measures
are involved). Don't get me started about inheritance and tables. I'm really
looking forward to a more coherent model, but then I hear you're not going
to integrate NGLayout until it is compatible with Navigator-optimized
content. Say what?!
I don't think it can be done. If by some truly awesome expenditure of
cleverness, sweat, and tears y'all succeed anyway, it will be impressive the
way freak shows are impressive. I'm not suggesting for one instant that you
release a browser that breaks much of the Navigator2/3/4-optimized content
out there. Please consider taking a modal approach: ship a browser with 2
independent rendering systems. Use the legacy system for legacy content. Use
NGLayout when rendering documents authored in either HTML 4.0 Strict or XML
(this will include HTML 5.0). Pay attention to the DOCTYPE. Encourage
authors to use HTML 4.0 Strict (or well-formed variant, for which you
provide a DTD) or XML, and outline a plan to phase out the legacy renderer.
Bloat? Can a 100% legacy-compatible NGLayout really be much more lean than
the legacy system and a "clean" NGLayout together? The maintenance issues
for a single hybrid engine must be pretty sticky, too. The biggest issue, I
think, is that a legacy-supporting NGLayout will not prompt any behavior
changes in authors and authoring-tool makers, and this, I submit, will be
the death of Navigator as a serious content platform. IMO, NGLayout needs to
show some tough love if it's to escape the quicksand of casual authors'
unreasonable expectations for error tolerance and kludge support.
* * *
I'm a little perturbed by the amount of effort (apparently) going into
tweaking the table rendering code. For every 1000 Web pages that use tables,
I'll wager that no more than 5 use them solely for representing tabular
data. The rest use them for layout. A truly complete CSS1 implementation
could replace the tables in 995 of those documents, with much less total
code to download, parse, and generally plug up the Web with. In other words,
I think there's more bang for buck in supporting CSS to the point that it
can replace tables for their most common abuses than in improving table
support per se.
Complete, consistent, accurate support for the following (conspicuously
neglected) CSS1 properties <em>ACROSS ALL APPLICABLE MARKUP ELEMENTS</em> is
a minimum condition for retirement of tables-as-layout:
1. The display property (e.g., the ability to cause H1 elements to display
as list items, or list items to display inline, or table heads to display as
blocks, etc.)
2. The box model (margins, paddings, borders)
3. The float property (see http://www.w3.org/Style/css/Test/float ,
http://www.w3.org/Style/css/Test/movies )
4. The width property
"Absolute positioning" isn't in this list, because it's not the silver
bullet it's been billed as. It's not adequately flow-aware (flow happens),
and the back-asswards way inheritance works in positioning (from child to
parent!) is for social workers to deal with.
Disclaimer:
From an engineering POV, I realize my suggestions here might be totally
goofy. I'm ready to believe that. As a Web author, though, I've got a lot
more ammo to support my position. If this is the wrong forum, please point
me to another and I'll take it there, with apologies.
Angus Davis
> As some have suggested in the thread that Todd started, perhaps this is
> better taken up with Netscape executives in general and not on the Mozilla
> list.
Indeed, some of these decisions involve product directions and planning that
are beyond the scope of this newsgroup. I have forwarded your suggestions to
some of the folks involved in making these decisions, and I share a part in
them as well.
> I think that it would be a disastrous error for Netscape to release 5.0
> without 100% of CSS working 100% correctly. This will take NGlayout.
You're making a point and an assumption here -
1) point: that we need to really nail CSS support in 5.0
2) assumption: we can't nail CSS support in 5.0 without NGLayout.
I agree that CSS support is the most important feature we can work on in the
5.0 timeframe. We aren't planning on shipping NGLayout with 5.0. However, we
do want to significantly improve support for CSS in the old layout engine.
I invite anyone interested in this goal to help out with improving CSS1
support in 5.0. To do so, contact:
Primary people working on CSS: har...@netscape.com, poll...@netscape.com
Other people in layout: nish...@netscape.com, tos...@netscape.com
CC me: an...@netscape.com
Just say "I want to help with CSS" - together we'll figure out what needs
doing.
If you want to help out with CSS support in NGLayout, contact
pet...@netscape.com - we're surpisingly far along on this front; I just ran
through the test suite last night and filed bugs on anything we don't support
yet.
> Web developers and designers spend far too much time debugging the visual
> rendering of pages, and undo load is passed off to our servers
> conditionalizing around problems. CSS is the right way to do it and is the
> standard.
Agreed! Agreed! Agreed!
> RDF, XML, Smart browsing, Mail, News, calendar are all useful, natural
> extensions to the product and its suite of applications. However they need
> to be built upon a solid foundation that complies with specs.
I agree with your statement, however I disagree that the specific items you
list are dependent on CSS or the DOM to function properly (except perhaps for
XML).
> Designers need CSS to be 100% complete, and 100% correct.
Agreed. We will have 100% complete and correct CSS1 support in NGLayout. I'd
like to have as close to 100% support for CSS1 in 5.0 as possible; we'll need
your help to really make this effort a success.
> Developers need the W3C DOM to be 100% complete, and 100% correct.
Agreed. We've actually generated our JavaScript DOM bindings in NGLayout from
the IDL definitions contained in the W3C spec. You can't get any closer to the
standard than that!
> I urge Netscape to delay the release of Navigator 5.0 until it can include
> NGlayout
All I can say is that I've forwarded your comments on to other folks involved
in this decision, but as you read on mozilla.org, our current plan is to ship
NGLayout in a post-Navigator 5.0 release.
> Which brings me to the Mozilla question. What does the NGlayout group need
> to get the project done?
Great question!
We need help from people who do not code:
Report Crashes
Download an NGLayout build and run the viewer, browsing popular web sites. If
(When) you crash the viewer, send a list of URLs that crash the viewer to this
newsgroup, or to ri...@netscape.com. Be sure to include the URL of the site,
the operating system you're on (Win95 or WinNT, etc.), and the date of your
build.
Report Layout Problems
Download an NGLayout build and run the viewer, browsing popular web sites. If
you run into problems with layout on a particular site, send mail to the
newsgroup with a description of what looks wrong, the URL of the site, the OS
you are running, and the date of your build. Expect to see quite a bit of this
sort of thing right now.
Test Cases and Suites
Try to simplify problems you experience down to the most simple level. Having
a URL for a site with 50k of content is one thing, knowing that the little
snippet of HTML "<b>foo</b>" doesn't work right is quite another. If you can
give us a simpler example of your problem, do so. Also, please run the viewer
against test suites such as the CSS test suite at
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/ and any other test suites for HTML and DOM.
Again, report problems to this group and someone will file in bugzilla as
necessary.
Create Cool Content
Download the viewer and create some whizzy, standards-based dynamic content
using our best-of-breed CSS support and the 100% standards-based DOM. Surely
there will be some good stuff we can work on in this category along the lines
of "how-to's" and whatnot that would be of interest to the webmonkey audience.
In turn, perhaps that audience would like to create some of this whizzy
content.
We also need help from people who do code:
Mac Geeks:
Help us get shared objects working on the mac. Help us port gfx and the widget
library to the Mac. Contact th...@netscape.com and pie...@netscape.com if you
want to help. This will get NGLayout working on the Mac!
Font Geeks:
Help us get Small Caps working in our font library (libfont). Also help with
support for "oblique" and other minor fixes in the font library. Contact
pet...@netscape.com and d...@netscape.com to help.
Postscript Geeks:
Michael Plitkins could use a version of the graphics classes for doing
PostScript output. Contact mich...@netscape.com to help.
Frame History:
We have no frame history yet in NGLayout. Contact scu...@netscape.com and
kar...@netscape.com to help.
ActiveX Geeks:
Want to make NGLayout into an ActiveX control? This is the subject of frequent
postings in these newsgroups. Contact rpo...@netscape.com
Unix Geeks:
NGLayout runs on Linux and Irix. Help get it running on other Unix platforms.
Email ro...@netscape.com to help with this and other unix issues.
HTML 4.0 Geeks:
Create a really nice test suite for HTML 4.0-specific features, and post the
URL in this newsgroup. Then run the viewer against the test suite and let us
know what doesn't work. For HTML 4.0 forms issues, contact
kar...@netscape.com for info on how to help.
Style Geeks:
Fill us in on what CSS2 features are most important to you by posting
suggestions here. Create a test suite for CSS2. Post the URL for the suite
here, and run the viewer against your tests. Run the viewer against the
existing CSS1 test suite. Ask pet...@netscape.com for info on how you can
help.
Other Geeks:
There's a lot of other work that needs addressing. If you think you can help,
post a message to this newsgroup and let us know, and we'll try to point you
in the right direction. Also, please download our latest source code (best bet
is via CVS, as we're updating the source *constantly*).
Well, I really ought to go to bed now, so if I think of anything else, I'll
post it tomorrow. Thanks,
-angus
* opinions expressed are mine not netscape's *
--
Angus Davis
Product Manager
Netscape Communications
650.937.3784
taylor
> > I think that it would be a disastrous error for Netscape to release 5.0
> > without 100% of CSS working 100% correctly. This will take NGlayout.
>
> You're making a point and an assumption here -
>
> 1) point: that we need to really nail CSS support in 5.0
> 2) assumption: we can't nail CSS support in 5.0 without NGLayout.
>
> I agree that CSS support is the most important feature we can work on in the
> 5.0 timeframe. We aren't planning on shipping NGLayout with 5.0. However, we
> do want to significantly improve support for CSS in the old layout engine.
>
As Todd is fond of pointing out, unless we have CSS that renders completely
correctly, and has full support (my 100% correct, 100% complete slogan) then page
authors will create content that include these bugs in them, so netscape will have
to include the workarounds in the NGlayout release to keep exisiting content from
breaking. It's the HTML nightmare all over again. I am of the opinion that there
should be No CSS support in Navigator until it works 100%/100%. Having said that
if there were to be incremental, but not total improvement in the netscape CSS
model, the time for that release should have been in 4.5. To move to the next
full release without fully solving it is only going to extend the problem another
year and a half (and I'd like to author a CSS page for real before the next
millenium).
> > RDF, XML, Smart browsing, Mail, News, calendar are all useful, natural
> > extensions to the product and its suite of applications. However they need
> > to be built upon a solid foundation that complies with specs.
>
> I agree with your statement, however I disagree that the specific items you
> list are dependent on CSS or the DOM to function properly (except perhaps for
> XML).
>
RDF and smart browsing do not depend on CSS, I agree. But as a company Netscape
is throwing an inordinate amount of engineering reasources at these new
"experimental" features which have little to no value to most HTML devlopers,
while CSS support appears to have not been sufficiantly addressed in any of the
post 4.0 releases of the browser. This makes it extremely hard to impossible to
develop real content, or interfaces that utilize any sort of CSS because of the
cross platform issues. If the CSS rendering engine was working properly then
these new additions to the browser could be evaluated objectively, but since most
page authors, designers, and developers spend so much time conditionalizing around
rendering bugs/interpretations, Netscape's investment in these new technologies
seems questionable and lavish. Get the HTML and CSS working and then you can go
nuts trying out new things, but get the core functions working first.
> > Which brings me to the Mozilla question. What does the NGlayout group need
> > to get the project done?
>
> Great question!
>
And an even better answer (which I've left in for the benifit of all). Thank you
for an exaustively ( by the timestamp of your message) detailed and throurough
description of what needs to be done, and what to do. I will forward far and
wide.
One open question (because I bet Angus isn't allowed to tell me) is there a web
site that contains (and will contain) the latest compiled build of NGlayout
mozilla, that I could point people to, for the benifit of those who don't code, or
own a compiler? I'd like to be able to point people towards a build and have them
up and testing within an hour.
Again, thank you for this detailed to-do list for both NGlayout and the current
implementation. Now get some sleep.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- "How long have you been wanting me to talking like a bot?" ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
tay...@taylor.org
Chris Nelson
> Download an NGLayout build and run the viewer, browsing popular web sites. If
> (When) you crash the viewer, send a list of URLs that crash the viewer to this
> newsgroup, or to ri...@netscape.com. Be sure to include the URL of the site,
> the operating system you're on (Win95 or WinNT, etc.), and the date of your
> build.
>
On this note, Angus, could you post build instructions for NGLayout? I've noticed
them online, and they've worked, but how do I get the newest version via CVS?
What's the branch name? Have the build instructions changed for builds after you
update via CVS? This stuff would be very helpful. If we could get someone doing
builds who could then distribute them, as well, to people who don't have
compilers, we can really test the Hell out of NGLayout. As it is now, only
developers can test it... :(
Also, Angus, do you have any information about the use of the "mozilla" name in
third-party sites? I'm interested in starting up a mozilla news website, which
would contain "mozilla" in the name, and in the URL. Is this possible? or would I
have to shorten it to "moz" to pass muster? Or can I not use any "moz" reference
at all?
Thanks,
Chris Nelson
cne...@adelphia.net
Braden N. McDaniel
>Angus Davis wrote:
>
>> > I think that it would be a disastrous error for Netscape to release 5.0
>> > without 100% of CSS working 100% correctly. This will take NGlayout.
>>
>> You're making a point and an assumption here -
>>
>> 1) point: that we need to really nail CSS support in 5.0
>> 2) assumption: we can't nail CSS support in 5.0 without NGLayout.
>>
>> I agree that CSS support is the most important feature we can work on in
the
>> 5.0 timeframe. We aren't planning on shipping NGLayout with 5.0. However,
we
>> do want to significantly improve support for CSS in the old layout
engine.
>>
>
>As Todd is fond of pointing out, unless we have CSS that renders completely
>correctly, and has full support (my 100% correct, 100% complete slogan)
then page
>authors will create content that include these bugs in them, so netscape
will have
>to include the workarounds in the NGlayout release to keep exisiting
content from
>breaking. It's the HTML nightmare all over again.
It's worse. Certain bugs *cannot* be worked around. Once they're there, you
*must* break backward compatibility by fixing them. Let me give an example.
The "width" property in CSS is specified to denote the "content width".
That's the part that is inside the padding, border, and margin. IE4 doesn't
implement width this way, though. In IE4, width specifies the content width
+ padding + borders. In addition to this creating the potential for spatial
conflicts between width, padding size, and border size specifications, it is
simply contrary to the spec.
Content authored for IE4 that employs the width property in concert with the
padding and/or border properties will almost certainly break under a
conformant CSS implementation. At the same time, this is obviously a
critical aspect of the CSS box model, and thus *needs* to be fixed. But I
don't see how doing so can be done while maintaining backward compatibility
with the errant behavior of IE4.
> I am of the opinion that there
>should be No CSS support in Navigator until it works 100%/100%.
Me, too. There is no doubt in my mind that content developers would be
better off with Zero CSS support in Navigator 4.x, rather than what is there
now.
> Having said that
>if there were to be incremental, but not total improvement in the netscape
CSS
>model, the time for that release should have been in 4.5. To move to the
next
>full release without fully solving it is only going to extend the problem
another
>year and a half (and I'd like to author a CSS page for real before the next
>millenium).
Agreed. I'd go so far as to say that if CSS1 support can't reach 100%
conformance by 5.0, it should be ripped out altogether, and put back in when
it can attain that status. The *worst possible* thing that you could do in
5.0 with CSS is to introduce more buggy, non-conformant behavior. This would
shackle Netscape with even more "leave the bugs or break content" decisions.
Angus, you're right that this thread is based on the assumption that solid
CSS1 support in Mozilla/Communicator is tied to NGLayout. But given the
facts: (1) after over a year and a half since the CSS1 spec reached
"Recommendation" status, we *still* don't have an implementation that
conforms to the CSS1 "core," and (2) Netscape 4.x trails the competition in
their nearness to conformance by quite a wide margin, I don't think this
assumption is *at all* unreasonable.
Braden
Sue Jordan
[...]
>
> Style Geeks:
> Fill us in on what CSS2 features are most important to you by posting
> suggestions here. Create a test suite for CSS2.
A reliable source informs me that a CSS2 test suite is already in
progress as an addition to the CSS1 test suite at the W3C. Although a
time table was not available, I'm sure it would be delivered faster than
anyone else could write one. I'm not even sure how some of the aural
style sheet properties _could_ be tested.
As to future releases, up to the inclusion of NGLayout, *please* either
perfect CSS1 support, or just hold any 'improvements' that may require
yet more 'workarounds'. BTW, please _don't_ implement support of @import
until CSS1 support is adequate, since that is the primary method by
which conscientious CSS authors exclude Netscape from styles with which
it cannot cope.
Sue Jordan
Lukas Meier
If you need the help of non-coding people it would be nice to offer them the
binaries! Maybe they could be generated automatically from the latest source
daily. I think this would be quite easy to do...
Lukas
Angus Davis wrote:
> We need help from people who do not code:
> ...
Angus Davis
right direction. Thanks,
-angus
Zac Spitzer
cheers
Angus Davis wrote:
--
Zac Spitzer - Lead Developer Customer Connect http://www.volante.com.au
"I'm Working on the greatest thing since Windows 3.11"
Volante Integrated Technology zspi...@volante.com.au PH: 03-9676-4999