irc l10n meeting
Asa Dotzler
meetings held this week. If any of you have logs, please post them in a
reply to this post. Thanks.
From my memory of the meeting:
*Release of 1.7 (downloads) will happen on Tuesday, June 15.
*Language packs for 1.7 need to be contributed by noon PDT on Wednesday,
June 16.
*If you've got a language pack for 1.7 (RC 3 packs should work fine in
final) please note that information in bug
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246366
*Legal concerns about inclusion of GPL spellchecker dictionaries in
mozilla.org-hosted builds.
*Discussion about what localizers would like to include in language packs.
*localized UI strings
*accept language?
*default charset?
*bookmarks
*sidebars
*start page
*UI links like release notes
*more??
*Getting localizations into CVS. Some people want this, some don't. No
plan yet.
*Communication with localizers improved with late-l10n keywords, a
better (but not perfect) UI freeze, IRC meetings, and release status
page http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html.
*Suggestion for the CD that localizers make a stub (net) installer and
XPIs and re-use the core XPIs for browser, mail, etc.
*Minimum localization to be included on the CD is "reasonably complete
localization of Browser, MailNews, and Composer, and their sub-windows
like bookmarks, preferences, etc." but not necessarily Chatzilla,
Venkman, and Help content.
If you've got logs or can add to or comment on this list, please do so.
Thanks.
Tsahi Asher
different set of themes. these are the classic and modern themes, with
some of the graphics and CSS flipped horizontally, to fit a RTL UI.
--
Tsahi Asher
Hebrew L10n Team
http://www.mozilla.org.il
Mark Tyndall
> Something went wrong on my machine and I lost the logs I had of the IRC
> meetings held this week. If any of you have logs, please post them in a
> reply to this post. Thanks.
This is my log from the European l10n meeting. Times are BST (ie UTC+1)
[15:55] <SLMalling> good afternoon :-)
[15:56] <tsahi> it's early evening here, but goodmorning anyway :)
[15:56] <Asa> it's nearly 8am here :)
[15:56] <ast> good evening here
[15:57] -->| thirdhand (~thirdhand@***************) has joined #l10n
[15:59] <Asa> Let's wait a few extra minutes to see if others show up.
[15:59] =-= mrt is now known as mrt_en-GB
[16:00] <mrt_en-GB> hi all (opting for a time-neutral greeting)
[16:00] =-= thirdhand is now known as thirdhand_nb-NO
[16:00] <Asa> :)
[16:00] <leaf> rheeetings
[16:01] <Asa> mornin' leaf.
[16:01] =-= filip is now known as filip_fr-FR
[16:01] <filip_fr-FR> Good evening
[16:01] *leaf is here to try and prevent the fiasco of the last release cd
[16:01] <Asa> good evenin' filip_fr-FR.
[16:01] <Asa> leaf: but we _love_ fiascos!
[16:02] <leaf> i don't mind a good fiasco when it's someone else's
fault, but not when it's mine
[16:02] <Asa> it's how we operate ;-)
[16:02] <leaf> and it was definitely my bad
[16:02] <tsahi> how do i change my nick?
[16:02] <Asa> tsahi: type /nick <new nick>
[16:03] =-= tsahi is now known as tsahi_hi-IL
[16:03] =-= tsahi_hi-IL is now known as tsahi_he-IL
[16:05] <Asa> I was hoping we'd have a few more people here.
[16:05] <tsahi_he-IL> it /was/ a short notice
[16:05] *Asa requests that people either introduce themselves and the
locale they represent or change their nicks like several have done.
[16:05] <Asa> yeah. it was. sorry 'bout that.
[16:05] <filip_fr-FR> Yep, just learn about it 10 min ago
[16:06] <filip_fr-FR> :)
[16:06] =-= SLMalling is now known as SLMalling_da-DK
[16:06] =-= peterv is now known as peterv_neutral
[16:06] *filip_fr-FR is part of the frenchmozilla team who is
responsible for the french translation of the mozilla products.
[16:06] =-= ast is now known as xose_ast-ES
[16:07] <Asa> OK. I suppose we can get started.
[16:07] <filip_fr-FR> I'm responsible of the firefox translation (with
the help of the others members)
[16:07] <Asa> I wanted to cover just a few quick points this meeting and
then open it up for general discussion (complaints, suggestions, etc.)
[16:07] =-= Henkari is now known as Henkari_fi-FI
[16:07] -->| Gunner-P (~GunnerPou@***************) has joined #l10n
[16:08] <Asa> the first was to let you all know that the website release
of Mozilla 1.7 final is scheduled for next Tuesday mid-day (PDT)
[16:08] =-= Gunner-P is now known as Gunner-P-DK
[16:09] <Asa> that's Tuesday, June 15.
[16:09] <Asa> our goal is to collect all of the language packs for the
CD by wednesday (June 16).
[16:10] <Asa> the bad news is that we did take quite a few changes that
impacted localizable strings after 1.7 beta when we tried to freeze them.
[16:10] <Asa> you can see that list of bugs by querying for the keyword
late-l10n
[16:10] <Asa> the good news is that we didn't (I think) take any changes
after RC 3.
[16:11] <Asa> so RC3 language packs should work with Final.
[16:11] <Asa> do any of you know of anything that changed after RC3 that
would impact localizations?
[16:11] <Asa> I tried to make sure nothing was approved and kept a close
eye on checkins (but I'm not a localization expert so I may have missed
something)
[16:11] <tsahi_he-IL> at least, nothing was posted to n.p.m.l10n
[16:13] <Asa> if anyone does find anything (I hope not) please post to
the newsgroup so everyone can benefit from your discovery.
[16:13] <Asa> leaf: am I right that they should contact you with their
language packs for inclusion on the CD?
[16:13] <leaf> actually, it'd be better for me to poll the published
list of packs
[16:13] <leaf> which i discovered *after* the last cd
[16:14] <leaf> can someone point me to that list?
[16:14] <tsahi_he-IL> i usually just update mozillatranslator with the
new en-US.jar, i don't look for new additions in bugzilla
[16:14] <Asa> OK. so you'll look at the list at
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/l10n/mlp_status.html#moz_1.7rc3
[16:14] <tsahi_he-IL>
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/l10n/mlp_status.html#projects but it's
not updated so fast
[16:15] <Asa>
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/l10n/mlp_status.html#moz_1.7 actually, I
guess
[16:15] <tsahi_he-IL> it usually takes a day or two for the MLP staff to
update it
[16:15] <Asa> how about the newsgroup or Bugzilla?
[16:15] <Asa> I could start a bug or a newsgroup thread for everyone to
put their information.
[16:16] <Asa> would that work?
[16:16] <leaf> having something persistent, that isn't my mail, would be
ideal
[16:16] <tsahi_he-IL> maybe a better idea is to look at the newsgroup
[16:16] <leaf> newsgroups, for instance
[16:16] <mrt_en-GB> newsgroups or bugzilla would be fine. I guess
bugzilla is more robust
[16:17] <tsahi_he-IL> it could also be a mozillazine thread.
[16:17] <Asa> OK. I will start a bugzilla bug. localizers all have
bugzilla accounts, I'm sure.
[16:17] <Asa> I'll post a notice to the newsgroup pointing to the bug.
[16:17] <tsahi_he-IL> what about firefox packs?
[16:17] <Asa> and if mozillazine will post it, I'll submit a notice there.
[16:18] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: We still haven't settled on how we're going
to handle Firefox localizations.
[16:18] <Asa> there are more complicated questions about trademark and
quality with Firefox localizations.
[16:18] <xose_ast-ES> should we just upload just the langABCD.xpi pack,
or installables too?
[16:18] <tsahi_he-IL> and documentation
[16:18] <Asa> we're working to make a policy for Firefox -- which will
probably be more strict about what is allowed in a localization than
what is allowed for SeaMonkey.
[16:19] <Asa> I believe that for the CD we are looking for language pack
XPIs and not complete builds.
[16:19] <peterv_neutral> ah, so you won't ship installers on the CD?
[16:20] <Asa> peterv_neutral: I believe that was what we decided the
plan was for 1.6. Should we change that?
[16:20] <Gunner-P-DK> Asa are there going to be any changes til the
xxx.ini files for the installers in Linux, Win and Mac betwen 1.7RC3 and
Final?
[16:20] <Asa> peterv_neutral: I feel much more comfortable with our
official builds actually working and not being tampered with too much.
[16:20] <peterv_neutral> well, we discussed this a while back during
staff and I thought you planned to ship installers
[16:20] <peterv_neutral> right
[16:20] <Gunner-P-DK> exept 1.7rc3 > 1.7
[16:21] <peterv_neutral> oh well, because as you know we have been
working at making installers with Mozilla Europe
[16:21] <Asa> Ugh. I thought when we discussed it at staff the plan was
to explicitely _not_ ship installers.
[16:21] -->| Benoit (~benoua@********************) has joined #l10n
[16:21] <leaf> Gunner-P-DK: there shouldn't be.
[16:21] <Asa> peterv_neutral: OK. maybe I mis-understood. perhaps
"official" mozilla-europe installers.
[16:21] <peterv_neutral> hihi
[16:21] <peterv_neutral> ok
[16:22] <leaf> peterv_neutral: maybe we need another cd distribution for
europe?
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> I'll make the installers
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> you can decide to take them or not
[16:22] <Asa> peterv_neutral: mostly I'm concerned about people
building, for example, on a linux environment that's not as widely
compatible as ours or something like that.
[16:22] <Asa> or building with extensions that we don't support, etc.
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> well, ours are repackaged with the default
installer
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> so we don't rebuild
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> we just repackage
[16:23] <Asa> peterv_neutral: that makes me feel much more comfortabl. I
think it's reasonable to include those.
[16:23] <tsahi_he-IL> there's no need to build mozilla to create a
localized installer
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> and we don't include nothing but localizations
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> ok
[16:23] <filip_fr-FR> Same here for mozilla and firefox
[16:23] -->| Hasse (~Hasse@**********************) has joined #l10n
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> so I'll make them ready and I'll let you guys know
[16:23] <Asa> peterv_neutral: the japanese localization would make your
head spin. it's really a "distribution" that they patch heavily and make
other significant modifications to. It's that kind of thing that worries me.
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> and I'll let you know how we build them
[16:24] <Asa> leaf: is room on the CD a concern?
[16:24] <leaf> ok, so if we're going to include that stuff
[16:24] <leaf> no, we have lots of space
[16:24] <peterv_neutral> leaf: are you proposing to come to Europe to
make CD's?
[16:24] <peterv_neutral> :-D
[16:24] <leaf> we have to decide where it goes on the cs
[16:24] <leaf> cds
[16:24] <Asa> ok. what about organization?
[16:24] <leaf> peterv_neutral: sure :)
[16:24] <leaf> right, organization
[16:24] <Asa> yeah. I think we want to put installers in a differnt
category than xpis
[16:25] <Asa> how about a folder called "locales" with two folders
inside, one for "language packs" and one for "localized installers"
[16:26] <tsahi_he-IL> i'm not sure localizers are nessesarily interested
in these details
[16:27] <Asa> OK. do any of you have further questions about the CD?
[16:27] <Asa> before I move on to the next topic?
[16:27] <tsahi_he-IL> so do you want installers or not?
[16:27] <SLMalling_da-DK> are installeres only windows-installers?
[16:27] <tsahi_he-IL> in addition to the xpis
[16:28] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: I'd prefer language pack XPIs but we'll
accept installers if they're simply repackaging of the official installer.
[16:28] <tsahi_he-IL> ok
[16:28] <xose_ast-ES> the main concern I see is that with the
installaers the "installation" is also localized
[16:28] <leaf> SLMalling_da-DK: we also have windows installers
[16:28] <Asa> If you include installers, it would be nice to include
them for each platform. I know that will be more difficult and that is
why I encourage you to just do XPIs
[16:28] <leaf> er, *linux*
[16:29] <leaf> Asa: peterv might know how to rebundle the mac disc
image, but it's black magic for most :)
[16:29] <peterv_neutral> if everything goes as planned installers built
by Mozilla Europe will be for the three tier-1 platforms
[16:29] <Asa> peterv_neutral: OK. excellent.
[16:29] <peterv_neutral> if the black magic works :-)
[16:29] <tsahi_he-IL> i will be able to produce only a win32 installer
[16:30] <SLMalling_da-DK> but would all the localized installers fit on
a (one) cd
[16:30] <Asa> SLMalling_da-DK: leaf says we have lots of room on the CD.
[16:30] <peterv_neutral> but can we trust leaf?
[16:30] <peterv_neutral> :-)
[16:30] <SLMalling_da-DK> i forgot.. what size is ONE installer
[16:30] <Asa> :D
[16:30] <Asa> average installer is about 12 MB
[16:31] <Asa> so we could fit about 50 of them :)
[16:31] <peterv_neutral> well
[16:31] *SLMalling_da-DK begins counting
[16:31] <peterv_neutral> if you divide by three platforms :-)
[16:31] -->| davidfraser_ (~chatzilla@************) has joined #l10n
[16:31] <xose_ast-ES> for the next release, I think it would be better
to make a localized install engine, and then the .xpis, the rest should
be the same for all languages
[16:32] -->| jerome (~jer...@myreseau.org) has joined #l10n
[16:33] <davidfraser_> sorry if I'm interrupting, but struggling to work
out the time zones ... has the meeting happened or is it happening in
half an hour?
[16:33] <leaf> that's an excellent suggestion
[16:33] <SLMalling_da-DK> peterv_neutral: exactly.. that's not "lot's"
of space
[16:33] <leaf> davidfraser_: happening
[16:33] <leaf> it'd be best to have localized stub installers
[16:33] <peterv_neutral> SLMalling_da-DK: well, we'll see how it goes
[16:33] <leaf> using the same core xpi directory
[16:33] <xose_ast-ES> we would ne to produce a localizable stub installer
[16:33] <davidfraser_> for a localizeable stub installer we could use
gettext
[16:33] *peterv_neutral is not going to rewrite the installer
[16:33] <xose_ast-ES> I meant need to produce
[16:34] <peterv_neutral> especially not for 1.7 :-)
[16:34] <Asa> OK. to repeat for some joining late: Release to the
website on June 15. All Localized resources need to be noted in the bug
(to be filed by me) no later than June 16 (PDT). CDs to include both
XPI language packs and repackaged Installers (preferred that they cover
all 3 tier-1 platforms, but not required).
[16:34] <leaf> peterv_neutral: how does repackaging make the full
installers localized?
[16:34] <peterv_neutral> leaf: localized .ini files
[16:34] <leaf> ok
[16:34] <leaf> so, that's all that needs to happen for stub installers, too
[16:35] <tsahi_he-IL> what's "stub"?
[16:35] <peterv_neutral> oh, and so you'd make symlinks?
[16:35] <Asa> net installer.
[16:35] <xose_ast-ES> that's right, the ini files point to the langpack
and region pack, the rest is the same, and we save a lot of space
[16:35] <leaf> peterv_neutral: no, that wouldn't be necessary
[16:35] <SLMalling_da-DK> well, not much use for a net installer if you
get the cde
[16:36] <peterv_neutral> leaf: you need to point the installer to the xpi's
[16:36] <leaf> SLMalling_da-DK: except it looks in a local /xpi
directory first
[16:36] <peterv_neutral> oh
[16:36] <Asa> SLMalling_da-DK: well, we could take 10 localized net
installers and have them all point at the same core XPIs and save space
compared to 10 full localized installers.
[16:36] <leaf> peterv_neutral: the xpis reside on the cd, as a peer of
the stub
[16:36] <peterv_neutral> I see what you're saying
[16:36] <leaf> peterv_neutral: that wouldn't work for mac disk images,
but it should work for linux and probably windows, too.
[16:37] <peterv_neutral> well
[16:37] <peterv_neutral> there's one issue
[16:37] <SLMalling_da-DK> i think i get i now... ti's some space
saving black magic
[16:37] <peterv_neutral> maybe we should go on with the meeting first?
[16:38] <leaf> this might need to wait for 1.8, and if we don't run out
of space, it's not necessary this time
[16:38] <leaf> yeah
[16:38] <Asa> OK. is everyone clear on the dates and requirements for
the CD?
[16:38] <leaf> localizing
[16:38] <Asa> are there any questions about the CD?
[16:38] <davidfraser_> is it possible to add any languages to the CD at
this stage?
[16:39] <Asa> davidfraser_: I don't understand the question.
[16:39] <Asa> we will be accepting language contributions until June 16.
[16:40] <davidfraser_> ok, just clarifying...
[16:40] <mrt_en-GB> is that 12 noon PDT?
[16:40] <Asa> I will file a bug in bugzilla where all of you will
comment to identify your contribution.
[16:40] <Asa> leaf: what's a good cut-off time?
[16:40] <KaiRo> Asa: so did anythiong came out of the discussion what
can be included in "official" lang packs in the future?
[16:41] <Asa> mrt_en-GB: yes. Noon will be the end.
[16:42] <Asa> KaiRo: that was my next topic.
[16:42] <KaiRo> ah ok :)
[16:42] <Asa> I discussed that with some of the Japanese folks last
night. It's going to be something of a problem, I think.
[16:42] <Asa> OK. let's move on to the next topic.
[16:42] <KaiRo> German lang pack will be ready in time for 1.7 btw, as I
have an RC3 already on my pages :)
[16:43] <Asa> we're still trying to decide what is allowed to be
included in language packs.
[16:43] <Asa> I believe that we want to be more strict with what is allowed.
[16:43] -->| Mnyromyr_away (~Mnyromyr@***********) has joined #l10n
[16:43] =-= Mnyromyr_away is now known as Mnyromyr
[16:43] <thirdhand_nb-NO> is it required that everything is localized?
we haven't localized venkman and the help docs yet
[16:44] <Asa> thirdhand_nb-NO: good question. Let me answer that.
[16:44] <Asa> last time I think we had a good rule. We'd like all three
primary applications localized. Browser, Mail, Composer.
[16:44] <xose_ast-ES> neither have I docs or chatzilla, as its not
included in langpack
[16:44] <KaiRo> so, what I have in now is quite some things, though it's
only things that fall in the locale and region pack category
[16:44] <Asa> we'd also like the components of those apps localized
(preferences, bookmarks, etc.)
[16:45] <--| davidfraser_ has left #l10n
[16:45] -->| davidfraser_ (~chatzilla@***********) has joined #l10n
[16:45] <Asa> so the minimum requirement is a generally complete
localization of the primary applications within the suite.
[16:45] <KaiRo> xose_ast-ES: though you can include chatzilla et al.
into the lang pack without problems.
[16:46] <Asa> so with that as the minimum, let us discuss the maximum.
[16:46] <tsahi_he-IL> kairo: it did create problems for me in the past,
so i stopped doing it
[16:46] <xose_ast-ES> yeah, but I'm always unsure which is the mozilla
policy about chatzilla
[16:46] <Asa> I think we need to come up with a clear description of
what is a language pack.
[16:46] <KaiRo> tsahi_he-IL: look at my packs, they always include all
that without problems
[16:47] <Asa> I don't think we will enforce this strictly for 1.8
because we haven't had an opportunity to discuss it enough.
[16:47] <Asa> traditionally, I've understood localizations to include
two things...
[16:47] <Asa> 1. localization of all the UI strings. 2. regional
content like bookmarks, start page, sidebars, search, etc.
[16:48] <tsahi_he-IL> kairo: sometimes, not always, people would get
that nasty error message in the status bar
[16:48] <KaiRo> Asa: well, my German XPIs currently include some search
plugins and myspell directories
[16:48] <tsahi_he-IL> ours includes some local search engines too
[16:48] <Asa> KaiRo: this is what I want to discuss. We need to come to
some agreement about what is allowed.
[16:48] <filip_fr-FR> search engines, start page, myspell...
[16:49] <KaiRo> tsahi_he-IL: that was when they did not have
localeVersion in use correctly, yes. we have eliminated those problems now
[16:49] <Asa> some of this will be decided by what we all want and some
will be decided by "the lawyers" (what is allowed because of trademarks
or other restrictions)
[16:49] <Asa> filip_fr-FR: what is myspell?
[16:49] <filip_fr-FR> dictionnaries
[16:50] <tsahi_he-IL> and then write it in a page in the l10n project on
mozilla.org
[16:50] <davidfraser_> I think dictionary integration is an important
part of a l10n pack, so should be allowed
[16:50] <KaiRo> Asa: I also do default homepage, start page and release
notes to the German pages, as users complained when launching a German
application and seeing english pages. search plugins and myspell
directories were also included when users started complaining...
[16:51] <leaf> how are the dictionaries licensed?
[16:51] <KaiRo> Asa: myspell is dictionaries for the spell checker
[16:51] <KaiRo> leaf: they're GPL, IIRC
[16:51] <KaiRo> leaf: or LGPL
[16:52] <Asa> I'm not sure that mozilla.org wants to be shipping GPL code.
[16:52] <Asa> leaf: has this been discussed before at staff?
[16:52] <leaf> not afaik
[16:52] <davidfraser_> I woudl recommend that the licensing for
dictionaries be considered as a separate issue to code licensing
[16:52] <leaf> we already ship something that's LGPL, though, i believe
[16:52] <peterv_neutral> KaiRo: do you change the startup image?
[16:52] <leaf> Asa: let me check
[16:52] <Asa> davidfraser_: our binaries are currently licensed as MPL.
[16:53] <mrt_en-GB> but the enUS installers include the myspell
(dictionary) engine and the enUS dictionary
[16:53] <peterv_neutral> heh
[16:53] <davidfraser_> Asa: but should the dictionaries be considered as
linked to the application? anyway we don't need to get into legal
technicalities here
[16:53] <Asa> mrt_en-GB: I suspect that we have licensed those from the
myspell people as MPL
[16:53] <leaf> which are also LGPL?
[16:54] <KaiRo> peterv_neutral: you mean the splash screen?
[16:54] <peterv_neutral> yeah
[16:54] <peterv_neutral> splash
[16:54] <Asa> OK. so you all desire to include changes to: 1. start
page 2. search engines 3. dictionaries 4. documentation 5. splash screen
[16:54] <Asa> anything else?
[16:54] <tsahi_he-IL> bookmarks
[16:54] <Asa> 4. documentation _links_
[16:55] <leaf> mrt_en-GB: yeah, we have those sources tri-licensed, and
we ship them as MPL
[16:55] <KaiRo> peterv_neutral: in the binary packs, I've included a
custom splash screen (but without changing the binary itself), in the
XPI packs I don't include one
[16:55] <filip_fr-FR> So, if I compile myself the code, I can release it
in GPL?
[16:56] <mrt_en-GB> so it's just the .dic and .aff files where there's a
concern
[16:56] <Asa> filip_fr-FR: we haven't completed relicensing all of the
code with MPL/GPL/LGPL When we have finished, then you are allowed to
accept the code under the GPL license if you want.
[16:56] <filip_fr-FR> k, that's a lot much better for me :)
[16:56] <KaiRo> the .dic and .aff is what we're shipping in L10n packs
though
[16:57] <mrt_en-GB> the enGB dictionary is under the LGPL
[16:57] <KaiRo> mrt_en-GB: I guess they're all under the LGPL
[16:58] <SLMalling_da-DK> KaiRo: I'd like some documentation for
including locale dictionaries/spellchecking
[16:58] <SLMalling_da-DK> since this is a great and aparently easy thing
to implement
[16:59] <KaiRo> hrm, the German (de-DE, de-At, and de-CH) ones seem to
be GPL, as I'm having a LICENSE.TXT file in the myspell directory, that
states GPL
[16:59] <peterv_neutral> Asa: so those 5 would be ok?
[16:59] <Asa> peterv_neutral: I'm not saying they're OK. I'm just trying
to understand what you all would like.
[16:59] <peterv_neutral> Asa: or are you just gathering
[16:59] <peterv_neutral> right
[16:59] <davidfraser_> aside: if anyone needs help *generating* the
dictionaries in the first place, then translate.sf.net has tools for
managing aspell/myspell dictionaries
[17:00] <KaiRo> davidfraser_: well, I just took the available ones...
[17:00] <peterv_neutral> Asa: from what I've seen some localizers ship
plugins and additional extensions
[17:00] <Asa> OK. I will ask mitchell about the licensing issues with
myspell GPL/LGPL files.
[17:00] <SLMalling_da-DK> i was more searching for HOW to include the
dictionaries
[17:00] <peterv_neutral> Asa: which I don't think we'd want in official
builds
[17:00] <Asa> plugins and extensions will probably not be allowed into
any "official" releases.
[17:01] <Benoit> the french dictionaries are also GPL, not LGPL
[17:01] <Asa> we certainly can't distribute plugins that aren't MPL
licensed and I don't think we want to distribute extensions since they
don't get the testing that Mozilla requires.
[17:01] <mrt_en-GB> SLMalling_da-DK: just get them installed into the
[mozilla]/components/myspell directory
[17:02] <SLMalling_da-DK> let me just refrase that
[17:02] <SLMalling_da-DK> how to include the dictionaries in the Xpi-packs
[17:03] <davidfraser_> Does the CD include Firefox/Thunderbird (presume
yes) and could it include localizations for them?
[17:03] <Asa> davidfraser_: I don't believe we'll be including
localizations for Firefox or Thunderbird this tim.
[17:03] <KaiRo> Asa: yes, would be nice to know about licensing issues
with shipping those dictionaries with our XPI packs. currently we just
do it, and we expect the creators to be generally friendly with us, but
it would be nice to be legally sure of what we're doing...
[17:03] <Asa> time
[17:03] <Asa> KaiRo: what we need is for the creators to license to you
all (or to mozilla) the files under MPL/GPL/LGPL.
[17:04] <Benoit> SLMalling_da-DK: you just put them in a "myspell"
directory in the xpi (example:
http://resources.kairo.at/mozilla/l10n/xpi/kairo-xpi-explanations.txt)
[17:04] <Asa> if they are generally friendly with us, then they will
have no problem doing that.
[17:04] <KaiRo> Asa: that would be the easiest way, right.
[17:04] |<-- xose_ast-ES has left irc.mozilla.org (Quit: ChatZilla
0.8.31 [Mozilla rv:1.4/20030624])
[17:04] <SLMalling_da-DK> Benoit: i'll just look at that.. thanks!
[17:04] <Asa> KaiRo: I'm sure that's what they've done for the english
dictionary that we officially ship.
[17:05] <KaiRo> SLMalling_da-DK: and your install.js has to install
them. you can look into my packs for how to do it...
[17:05] <Benoit> Asa: we actually got those files from the
OpenOffice.org project
[17:05] <Asa> for Firefox localizations (it's not finalized yet) I
believe that the language packs will only allow for the localizing of
dtd files and entities if it is to be called "Mozilla Firefox"
[17:05] <davidfraser_> I doubt we're going to get all producers of
dictionaries to relicense them ... they are more general purpose than
mozilla
[17:06] <KaiRo> And I expect Firefox not to expect platform
localizations with the new model
[17:06] <Asa> any changes that would be like the region packs
(bookmarks, start pages, searches) will not be allowed in "official"
localizations of Firefox unless special permission has been given by
mozilla.org
[17:06] <KaiRo> er, not to accept
[17:06] <Benoit> Asa: are you aware that we can't make any language
packs for Firefox atm (see
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=245831 )
[17:06] <thebot> Benoit: Bug 245831 cri, --, Firefox0.9,
fir...@blakeross.com, NEW, Provide information how to localize Firefox 0.9
[17:06] <Asa> Benoit: yes.
[17:06] <Benoit> ok :)
[17:07] <davidfraser_> Asa: that seems like a very arbritary decision.
why for firefox any not mozilla?
[17:07] <Asa> davidfraser_: then we may not be able to include those
dictionaries in anything Mozilla ships
[17:07] *KaiRo is more and more glad that he never got into that aviary
business
[17:07] <Asa> davidfraser_: we may move that way with Mozilla too.
[17:07] <davidfraser_> surely those things are an essential part of
localization?
[17:07] <davidfraser_> at least mozilla.org could provide a standard
mechanism for localizing the resources that are there
[17:08] <filip_fr-FR> Asa : ok, so our localisation of firefox will not
be an official one....
[17:08] <Asa> filip_fr-FR: and you will probably not be allowed to call
it "Mozilla Firefox" if it doesn't meet those criteria.
[17:08] <davidfraser_> Asa: would LGPL dicts be OK?
[17:08] <KaiRo> if seamonkey adopts the current extension thing of
firefox without suppoting much more, I will end my contributing of L10n,
I'm quite sure of that
[17:08] <filip_fr-FR> Asa: fine for me
[17:09] <Asa> davidfraser_: We ship our binaries under the MPL so LGPL
inclusions are probably not OK.
[17:09] <Benoit> Asa: do you consider setting Mozilla Europe as our
Start Page and Firefox Help in French in the bookmarks as requiring
special permission ?
[17:09] <filip_fr-FR> KaiRo: I agree with with you too
[17:09] <davidfraser_> Asa: a lot of these restrictions make it
difficult for us. mozilla foundation seems to be fighting the community
instead of working with us
[17:09] <Asa> Benoit: start pages and bookmarks changes in Firefox will
require permission from mozilla.org
[17:10] <Asa> davidfraser_: a lot of this is required if we are going to
protect our trademark on Firefox.
[17:10] <peterv_neutral> Benoit: and of course Mozilla Europe will
gladly help you get that permission ;-)
[17:10] <davidfraser_> Asa: why does protecting the trademark require no
changes to boookmarks?
[17:10] <Asa> if we do not protect our trademark then we could see
Spyware call itself "Mozilla Firefox" and there would be nothing we
could do to stop them.
[17:10] <KaiRo> Asa: requiring permission is OK, as long as there's some
guidelines on how to get permission and for what
[17:10] <SLMalling_da-DK> either that'll change... or the current
start-page will
[17:10] <Benoit> peterv_neutral: that's what I wanted to hear, thanks :)
but I feel sorry for non-european localizers then
[17:11] <davidfraser_> Asa: but surely you don't want to "protect" the
trademark from people that are genuinely wanting to help.
[17:11] <Asa> davidfraser_: right.
[17:11] <peterv_neutral> I'm pretty sure the permission getting will be
fairly straightforward though
[17:11] <peterv_neutral> for trivial changtes
[17:12] <davidfraser_> Can the permissions process be nice and simple
and documented then :-)
[17:12] <Asa> davidfraser_: is anything with Mozilla nice and simple and
documented ;-)
[17:12] <Asa> davidfraser_: we will do our best.
[17:12] <davidfraser_> Yes (as long as you're a developer) :-)
[17:12] <Asa> davidfraser_: I know a lot of developers that would disagree.
[17:12] *peterv_neutral waves
[17:13] <davidfraser_> Asa: they haven't tried to do stuff with
OpenOffice.org :-)
[17:13] <SLMalling_da-DK> so.. we HAVE coverd what we WANT to include now?
[17:13] <davidfraser_> mozilla has so far been a good example of open
process
[17:13] *Asa jumps for joy that we're better than some projects :)
[17:13] <peterv_neutral> hah
[17:13] <KaiRo> peterv_neutral: we all hope so ;-) it would be nice
though to have some recommendation that has to be fulfilled to get that
permission (e.g. basic availablity of a start page, only non-commercial
bookmark, or whatever)
[17:13] <Asa> SLMalling_da-DK: I think.
[17:13] <davidfraser_> clarification: if our xpis etc are included in
Mozilla CD, then can we distribute them as Official Mozilla builds in
other ways?
[17:13] <peterv_neutral> we're not last! we're not last!
[17:14] <Asa> davidfraser_: no. we haven't actually made that decision yet.
[17:14] <peterv_neutral> KaiRo: I'm sure there'll be a document
explaining it all
[17:14] <thirdhand_nb-NO> many of us have, or plan to have, websites for
the localized versions of Mozilla - and there's the issue with the use
of trademarks too
[17:14] <Asa> we're including them on the CD as contributions still, I
believe.
[17:14] <peterv_neutral> KaiRo: if not Mozilla Europe will try to donate
one to the Foundation
[17:14] <KaiRo> peterv_neutral: this would be nice - and I think all
people in here would be more than happy to discuss what requirements we
need ;-)
[17:14] <davidfraser_> Right. but if they become official, we need to
either have official pages for localizations on mozilla.org or
permission to distribute (otherwise how is it open source?)
[17:15] <davidfraser_> OpenOffice.org: to do a localization, you have to
merge your localizations into the source and *rebuild* the whole thing
(135+ projects). nasty
[17:15] <Asa> davidfraser_: I don't understand the question. You have
pages on mozilla.org and permission to distribute.
[17:16] <Asa> davidfraser_: we've been discussing moving some
localizations into the Mozilla cvs repository.
[17:16] <davidfraser_> Asa: I'm concerned about the
official/non-official builds issue.
[17:16] <davidfraser_> Asa: yes, this is a great idea
[17:16] <KaiRo> davidfraser_: well, as I understand it, the trademark
and imagery isn't really open source, because it's not doable in a
correct way
[17:16] <Benoit> Asa: these pages themselves are not localized, how does
it help?
[17:16] <Asa> right. and we've done a poor job of managing the trademark
and imagery with Mozilla but we're going to try to do a better job with
Firefox.
[17:17] <davidfraser_> KaiRo: that's the problem. how does it help to
produce a mozilla localization if you're not allowed to call it Mozilla
and use the standard images? :-)
[17:17] <peterv_neutral> davidfraser_: just translate the name :-P
[17:17] <Asa> for now, we're going to keep doing what we've been doing
for Mozilla. Don't get too worried about it for 1.7.
[17:17] <KaiRo> davidfraser_: that _is_ a problem... but there seems to
be no really good way to manage it
[17:18] <SLMalling_da-DK> I'd like to know, if our team has contributed
our pack to mozilla Europe... will it be include on the cd without doing
any futher?
[17:18] <Asa> I am concerned, however, about the dictionary myspell
licensing issue.
[17:18] <peterv_neutral> I really think there's not much to worry about
[17:18] <davidfraser_> Asa: great. I hope the l10n is included in future
discussions when things are changed
[17:18] <peterv_neutral> most l10n projects will easily get the permission
[17:18] <peterv_neutral> SLMalling_da-DK: I will make sure of that
[17:18] <KaiRo> Asa: For me, 1.7 is basically a done thing. the future
is the interesting thing to think of. I'm even thinking of weird things
but that's no L10n topic ;-)
[17:19] <SLMalling_da-DK> peterv_neutral: That's great news!
[17:19] *KaiRo praises peterv_neutral and mozilla-europe ;-)
[17:19] <Asa> OK. so I think we have a list of what people _want_ to
include. Ready to move on to the last topic?
[17:20] *SLMalling_da-DK chases a word in his dictionary
[17:20] <KaiRo> Asa: of course (and yes, I'm concerned about the myspell
licensing as well)
[17:20] *Asa intended this to be a somewhat shorter meeting.
[17:20] <thirdhand_nb-NO> heh
[17:20] <KaiRo> Asa: well, seems we have a lot to discuss
[17:20] <davidfraser_> yes, lets move on and argue about licensing in
blogs and newsgroups for all the world to see :-)
[17:21] <Asa> KaiRo: and I'm not very good at keeping discussion
on-topic :-)
[17:21] <peterv_neutral> heh
[17:21] <SLMalling_da-DK> peterv_neutral: do you have a gereral view of
what has been submittet to mozilla Europe
[17:21] <Asa> OK. last section of the discussion:
[17:22] <Asa> We have tried, with the l10n freeze (with some minor
success) and these release meetings to make things a bit easier for
localizers. Has this helped and what can we do to improve?
[17:22] -->| biesi (~chb@************************) has joined #l10n
[17:22] <thebot> biesi!
[17:22] *KaiRo believes that has helped a lot, and we're doing a quite
satisfying job there
[17:22] <davidfraser_> I think it has been great to have this meeting,
and IRC is an improvement on the phone conference calls last time
[17:23] <mrt_en-GB> the l10n freeze was really helpful
[17:23] <KaiRo> and we probably should have meetings here somewhat regularly
[17:24] <tsahi_he-IL> fird a way to force reporting to n.p.m.l10n on any
changes past beta, and make sure people add late-l10n keyword
[17:24] <tsahi_he-IL> most improtantly for me: changes to help files
[17:24] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: it's difficult to force anything with Mozilla
contributors ;-)
[17:24] <peterv_neutral> well
[17:25] <davidfraser_> Asa - but cron'd cvs diff scripts could do the
trick :-)
[17:25] <peterv_neutral> I think the freeze needs to be a real freeze
[17:25] <tsahi_he-IL> make it a policy: no sr= before pach submitter posted
[17:25] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: since very few people have been localizing
help files, that hasn't been as much of a priority as the UI strings but
we can try to do better with Help documents too.
[17:25] <KaiRo> for me, that freeze is good enough. a full freeze is
quite hard sometimes, and we should still take fixes for typos etc.
[17:26] <thirdhand_nb-NO> wasn't there some talk about converting the
help files to XHTML?
[17:26] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: that would require every reviewer know
exactly what's localizable and what's not. It's not always obvious.
[17:26] <KaiRo> thirdhand_nb-NO: to a certain extent, that has been
happening already
[17:26] <Asa> and sometimes we have no choice about taking even a UI
change (for a security problem, for example)
[17:26] <tsahi_he-IL> btw, i think you should split the giant mailnews
help file. i'll open a bug on this, i hope
[17:27] <Asa> but we will continue to try to improve the strictness of
our freeze.
[17:27] <KaiRo> tsahi_he-IL: yes, that's a bug for help people
[17:27] <filip_fr-FR> The help translator of frenchmozilla would be
happy too
[17:27] <Benoit> tsahi_he-IL: very true
[17:27] <Asa> does everyone know about the late-l10n keyword?
[17:27] <davidfraser_> I think xpis have come out quicker than the used
to as a result of the freeze, which is a nice measure of progress
[17:27] <thirdhand_nb-NO> KaiRo: thanks
[17:27] <KaiRo> Asa: you're doing a quite good job already. And as I
guess that it's said to rarely: thanks for doing that job ;-)
[17:27] <davidfraser_> Is there a way to get bugzilla to email
notifications on that keyword?
[17:28] <Asa> if you all see a change that impacts localizations and it
doesn't have the late-l10n keyword, please add it and possibly email
drivers to let them know.
[17:28] <Asa> davidfraser_: no, I don't think so.
[17:28] <Asa> davidfraser_: but you could file a bug on Bugzilla
requesting that feature.
[17:28] <Asa> also, I guess I need to remove older late-l10n keywords so
they don't confuse us for the current release.
[17:29] <davidfraser_> Asa: will do
[17:29] <Asa> KaiRo: thank you. I appreciate the positive feedback.
[17:29] <tsahi_he-IL> we could search only since a certain date, no?
[17:29] <mrt_en-GB> there's a link on the release-status page, which
limits (AFAICT) the search to the current release
[17:30] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: sort of. you can't search about when a
keyword was added but you can search for when the bug was resolved and
has the keyword.
[17:30] <Asa> mrt_en-GB: that link isn't quite perfect. I'll try to make
it better.
[17:30] <Asa> that's a good point, though...
[17:30] <Asa> do you all know about the release status page?
[17:31] <Asa> http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html
[17:31] <Asa> it's more specific than the roadmap and I try to keep it
more up to date (I sometimes get behind though)
[17:32] <KaiRo> Asa: btw, who's managing things like ftp staging
accounts and website cvs accounts now? (and adding people to e.g.
mlp-...@mozilla.org ?)
[17:32] <Asa> davidfraser_: yes, it seems like xpis are coming out a
little faster. I guess an almost freeze is better than no freeze :)
[17:32] <Asa> KaiRo: ftp accounts would be leaf or myk. I think you file
a bug on the product mozilla.org, component ftp accounts.
[17:33] <Asa> myk would probably be the one to add people to mailing lists.
[17:33] <Asa> le...@mozilla.org and m...@mozilla.org
[17:33] <KaiRo> Asa: thx.
[17:35] =-= Mode #l10n +o Asa by KaiRo
[17:35] <Asa> are there any other questions or suggestions?
[17:35] <davidfraser_> bug 34787 covers watyching keywords in bugzilla
[17:35] <thebot> davidfraser_: Bug
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34787 enh, P3, Bugzilla 3.2,
m...@mozilla.org, NEW, Expand watches to keywords
[17:35] <Asa> davidfraser_: excellent. an old bug :)
[17:36] <filip_fr-FR> bye people. work is finish here
[17:36] <davidfraser_> Asa: thanks for the release status, didn't know
about it
[17:36] <davidfraser_> Asa: thanks, has been a great meeting
[17:36] <Asa> thank you all for coming. I'll post this IRC log to the
npm.l10n newsgroup if no one objects.
[17:36] <Asa> we can continue the discussion there.
[17:36] <filip_fr-FR> Asa: yep :
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=243113
[17:36] <peterv_neutral> ok, bye all
[17:36] <thebot> filip_fr-FR: Bug 243113 enh, P2, ---,
mco...@myrealbox.com, ASSI, UI extension for langpack switching in
Firefox/Thunderbird
[17:36] <Asa> also, feel free to email me if you have questions. I get
_a_lot_ of email so I may be slow to reply but I will do my best.
[17:37] |<-- peterv_neutral has left irc.mozilla.org (Quit: ChatZilla
0.9.59 [Mozilla rv:1.6/20040206])
[17:37] <mrt_en-GB> thanks, Asa
[17:37] <Asa> filip_fr-FR: is that a question?
[17:37] <Asa> mrt_en-GB: thank you for participating!
[17:37] <tsahi_he-IL> hey, what about inserting langpacks to cvs?
[17:37] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: we can discuss that in the next meeting or in
the newsgroup.
[17:38] <filip_fr-FR> Asa: yep, is this bug will be one day resolved?
[17:38] <Asa> filip_fr-FR: probably.
[17:38] <KaiRo> tsahi_he-IL: well, we really could need a god proposal
of the directory structure we can use for that. see the relevant bug
report for my first proposal
[17:38] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: there was some discussion in the last one of
these meetings and in the newsgroup.
[17:38] <SLMalling_da-DK> just all make sure that your langpacks are
submitted... you know where?
[17:38] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: many people don't want to do it in CVS.
[17:38] <Asa> some people do.
[17:38] <filip_fr-FR> Asa: k thx
[17:39] <Asa> I will post the bug number for submitting language packs
when I post this log to the newsgroup.
[17:39] <tsahi_he-IL> i'm not sure i want it either, i just wanted to
know what are the plans
[17:39] <SLMalling_da-DK> DK team submitting to mozilla europe
[17:39] <mrt_en-GB> Asa: will you want language packs as attachments, or
just URLs?
[17:40] <Asa> mrt_en-GB: just URLs I think.
[17:40] <Asa> the bug is http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246366
[17:40] <thebot> Asa: Bug 246366 nor, --, ---, gen...@browser.bugs,
NEW, Language Packs for Mozilla 1.7
[17:40] <Henkari_fi-FI> SLMalling_da-DK: who/how to submit, when
submitting to mozilla europe?
[17:41] <SLMalling_da-DK> PS. The account is on the host
******************, username ********* and password *********.
[17:41] <tsahi_he-IL> asa: do you know what are the plans on
transitioning the help from html to xhtml?
[17:41] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: I don't know. You should ask the help people.
[17:41] <Asa> maybe n.p.m.documentation.
[17:41] <SLMalling_da-DK> og use asa's bug if you have a bugzilla account
[17:44] <KaiRo> Asa: another actually off-topic thing: do you know if
there will be xft+gtk builds for 1.7 on mozilla.org?
[17:44] <Asa> KaiRo: I don't know. It sure would be nice. I can't
believe we're still shipping the old builds.
[17:45] <SLMalling_da-DK> it's an odd thing thoug,, mozilla reading
xhtml ok.. but composer giving you an error on that
[17:45] <KaiRo> Asa: yes. we should have xft+gtk2 as default nowadays.
people do more and more complain of ugly font display in our builds
[17:45] <Asa> KaiRo: yes. I know.
[17:45] <KaiRo> SLMalling_da-DK: ask glazou on composer issues ;-)
[17:46] <SLMalling_da-DK> just been using composer to translate the help
files... of wich some are xhtml
[17:46] <KaiRo> SLMalling_da-DK: true, nowadays we have more and more
xhtml there... but I don't think composer is writing xhtml yet
[17:47] <SLMalling_da-DK> KaiRo: renaming the files to .html gives you
files allmost usable for composer
[17:48] <tsahi_he-IL> there was some talk about increasing the time
between releases, can you detail on that?
[17:48] <SLMalling_da-DK> i think .xhtml is only used for that
"&brandshortname"
[17:48] <KaiRo> Asa: and as I'm only taking official build and repackage
with othe locale resources, I couldn't give German users an xft+gtk
binary since 1.6 final, where we had one
[17:49] <mrt_en-GB> SLMalling_da-DK: You could use something like HTML
Tidy to post-process back to XHTML
[17:49] <Asa> KaiRo: with 1.6 final it wasn't an official build, was it?
[17:49] <Asa> KaiRo: I don't think mozilla.org made gtk2+xft official
builds.
[17:49] <KaiRo> Asa: it was a contributed build, but available on the
mozilla.org pages
[17:50] <Asa> KaiRo: Oh. yes. we will certainly have a contributed
xft+gtk2 build.
[17:50] <Asa> leaf is about to push the 1.7 RC3 contributed build.
[17:50] <Asa> I think.
[17:51] <KaiRo> Asa: ok, good. as we didn't have such contributed builds
for alpha, beta, or rc builds
[17:51] <Asa> KaiRo: I think we're about to flip that switch. the
problem, it seems, is that pre-8.0 Red Hat users won't be able to use
our builds anymore.
[17:51] <leaf> Asa: yes
[17:51] <leaf> i am
[17:51] <Asa> but we can let contributors provide the GTK1 builds for
older red hat users.
[17:52] <KaiRo> I think we should have the new ones as a default, and
the non-xft gtk1 builds as some additional variant (contributed or whatever)
[17:52] <Asa> KaiRo: exactly. I think that is the plan.
[17:52] <KaiRo> sounds good
[17:55] <leaf> hmm, or not
[17:55] <leaf> the url for the contributed builds is not responding
[17:55] <leaf> i might have to just make some.
[17:55] <KaiRo> but in the short term, I'm happy enough if there is a
contributed build I can use for providing a German xft+gtk2 binary
[17:56] <tsahi_he-IL> bye everyone
[17:56] <--| tsahi_he-IL has left #l10n
[17:56] <mrt_en-GB> It's probably a bit late to start discussing FF and
TB l10n issues now, but I think it would be useful to, certainly before
FF reaches 1.0
[17:56] <mrt_en-GB> Asa: could you see about arranging something?
[17:56] <SLMalling_da-DK> so noone has submittet their langpack to bug
246366 yet?
[17:57] <thebot> SLMalling_da-DK: Bug
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246366 nor, --, ---,
gen...@browser.bugs, NEW, Language Packs for Mozilla 1.7
[17:57] <Asa> mrt_en-GB: maybe. what?
[17:58] <mrt_en-GB> well, there's bug 243167 for TB; the situation is
similar for FF0.9, but I don't think there's a bug submitted
[17:58] <thebot> mrt_en-GB: Bug
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=243167 blo, --, ---,
msc...@mozilla.org, NEW, Platform-specific en-mac/unix/win.jar
localization files not all included for each distribution
[17:59] <mrt_en-GB> there's also the new XPI system, and problems with
that (see Axel's blog, for example)
[18:01] <mrt_en-GB> however, this IRC meet was for the Suite ;)
[18:02] <Asa> you want an IRC meeting for firefox and thunderbird?
[18:02] <mrt_en-GB> that would be good, yes.
[18:03] <Asa> I can try.
[18:03] <mrt_en-GB> cheers. Anyway, I've got to go now. Thanks once again.
[18:03] <--| YOU have left #l10n
Mark..
--
British English localisations of:
Mozilla Suite <http://www.tyndall.org.uk/moz_en-gb.html>
Firefox <http://www.tyndall.org.uk/fb_en-gb.html>
Thunderbird <http://www.tyndall.org.uk/tb_en-gb.html>
Benoit
> *Communication with localizers improved with late-l10n keywords, a
> better (but not perfect) UI freeze, IRC meetings, and release status
> page http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html.
That should include Firefox (and to a lesser extend Thunderbird), for
which some of us would appreciate specific IRC meetings (with the
devs?). There seems to be a far lowest interest from the team for
localization issues than with the suite (with the exception of Pierre
Chanial and David Hyatt who have been very receptive to comments and
suggestions in the past).
A string freeze before 1.0 (after RC something) would also be very
appreciated.
--
Geckozone - Aide et infos sur les produits basés sur Mozilla
http://www.geckozone.org/
Benoit
> If you've got logs or can add to or comment on this list, please do so.
> Thanks.
Sorry I forgot, it has been said that the size of mail_help.xhtml is a
big concern for teams localizing help content. It means (besides other
problems) that we can't properly divide the work between our countributors.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246405
David Fraser
> If you've got logs or can add to or comment on this list, please do so.
> Thanks.
issues with icons, graphics for Firefox + Thunderbird and the effect
this has on localizers...
And there was a general feeling that there needs to be a meeting on
Firefox / Thunderbird issues sometime soon as there are a number of
issues with extension managers etc
David
Giacomo Magnini
Second, thanks to Asa and Leaf for taking away some of their precious
time helping out us poor localizers! :)
You'll find my personal views and notes below.
Cheers, Giacomo.
Asa Dotzler wrote:
> *If you've got a language pack for 1.7 (RC 3 packs should work fine in
> final) please note that information in bug
> http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246366
Done.
> *Legal concerns about inclusion of GPL spellchecker dictionaries in
> mozilla.org-hosted builds.
> *Discussion about what localizers would like to include in language
packs.
> *localized UI strings
> *accept language?
> *default charset?
> *bookmarks
> *sidebars
> *start page
> *UI links like release notes
> *more??
I do understand your issues there, but seems to me no final word was
given. We include some bookmarks, some search engines and a reduced
dictionary (GPL licensed, with authorization to cut down on the size)
from OOo people: should we rip them off the Langpack?
The start pages are *not* included in the LP, but the relevant strings
in .dtd/.properties have been modified to head onto our site for the
translated starting pages (get-started, releases, README, a few others).
Our translated pages do not use any of the mozilla.org layout or
graphics, we just translate the content and apply our own "design"
(we're Italian after all! :) ). Is this ok? Should we stop immediately
doing so? Should we point to mozeu.org instead? A final word on this
would be really appreciated...
> *Getting localizations into CVS. Some people want this, some don't. No
> plan yet.
I'm not for it. Just my €0,02... :)
> *Communication with localizers improved with late-l10n keywords, a
> better (but not perfect) UI freeze, IRC meetings, and release status
> page http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html.
It helped a lot! The only bit I've complained about is Chatzilla: since
completely new versions are being dropped in with, at times,
*hundreds* of new strings (even unused ones), it's a major pain to get
on par with the translation. I've told this to Silver and rginda, and
they seem to understand the issue, so I hope to consider this as solved,
but please keep an eye on it (since cz is shipped with the official
mozilla build).
> *Suggestion for the CD that localizers make a stub (net) installer and
> XPIs and re-use the core XPIs for browser, mail, etc.
I support the idea of having a good HOWTO... :)
> *Minimum localization to be included on the CD is "reasonably complete
> localization of Browser, MailNews, and Composer, and their sub-windows
> like bookmarks, preferences, etc." but not necessarily Chatzilla,
> Venkman, and Help content.
We have all of them already translated, and version 1.7 will be the
first release with a fully translated help guide (a major archivement
for us, thanks to everybody who did contribute!). I'm hoping to add
Calendar to the lp in the near future. And many thanks to Kairo for all
of his help and install scripts! :)
What about whitelisting/locale xpi stuff in rc3? I hope the old policy
will be back, at least for 1.7 final...
If and when a FF/TB chat will be held, please spread the word in
advance, since that's where most of l10n problems lie nowadays...
Thanks all, Giacomo (it-IT Team).
KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
>> plan yet.
>
> I'm not for it. Just my €0,02... :)
For what reasons?
Those would be quite interesting in figuring out what to do next on this
issue...
Greetings,
Robert Kaiser
Giacomo Magnini
> For what reasons?
> Those would be quite interesting in figuring out what to do next on this
> issue...
Well, I think that pushing the translations onto the cvs will make my
(and maybe others') life actually harder...
Why should I learn the ins and outs of another tool (cvs)?
Will cvs simplify the process? I fear not, since managing accounts could
be a pain and a time consuming task.
What about the r= and (maybe?) sr= stuff? I thought the problem with moz
development was the time wasted by developers to get things reviewed and
checked in. What about reviewing changes in a language different from
english? Ok, the qa contact or whatever can superview changes, but that
would mean more time wasted. In my situation I think I'm going to r= my
own changes: how good would that be? Do we earn something to go trough
all of this? I will have to spend my time on bugzilla instead of
refining the translation or adding missing bits and pieces.
Will it be simplier for different/new translators to pick up the job? Or
would it be another barrier for them in learning how to start?
How much *more* space should we devote to mozilla files?
Will I need the entire codebase just to build a langpack?
Making a test lp won't be as quick as it is now, will it?
There's no worry about losing the already done job, since anybody can
start from an old langpack (or glossary) as a starting point. Maybe it
won't be fully up to date, but UI changes to Seamonkey are reduced to a
bare minimum, and it would be easy to get on par.
As I already said, that's just MHO: YMMV! :)
Cheers, Giacomo.
KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
I somewhat expected arguments pointing in those ways.
Having the lang packs in CVS would make work easier for distributors (I
had some tqalk with Ben Bucksch of Beonex about that topic) and possibly
for other contributors to L10n, as they have the sources available in an
easily readable format (they should be accessible via the LXR web pages).
I don't expect us to need r=/sr= for now, as language packs are not in
the default builds, in a first step we might not even have the
architecture to include them in a build process.
When we don't need any reviews, I don't think we'll be wasting much time
requesting them ;-)
With having things in CVS, it will be much easier though, if we want
some people to QA our work, as they can view the changes we made as
diffs and find mistakes we did there more easily. Reading through the
files on LXR could also be part of the work our internal QA people do
(if an L10n project has some of those).
Our process of creating a language pack will not differ in any way to
what we are doing now, and we don't need a codebase for that. There's
only an addtion to that: After having finished a language pack, we
should unpack the jar files and check them into cvs and eventually add
the right cvs tags to the files (release tags for certain releases etc.)
Not all L10n people have or will have cvs access. I think MLP-staff
people will volunteer to check in files of release packages if you have
no account. I already said I'd volunteer for that, and that is still
what I say now.
I think our work would be more transparent to others, and there would be
additional value as that I described for QA. When the infrastructure is
in place, we would even be ableto allow people building their own
Mozilla from source with a different language than en-US supported.
And satisfying the people who asked me where the source code for my
project is, would be easier as well (though they have essentially the
zipped source avialable in the jars already).
Nobody should be forced to check in their files, but I think it would be
recommended.
I hope to have calmed some fears with that.
We still lack a good directory structure for how to organize the files
in CVS though. I'd be glad if people would add their ideas in that
regard to http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57878
Robert Kaiser
Chris Hofmann
No r=/sr= process is required or implied. This process is only use
in the most complicated areas of the code where the possiblity of
regressions is high, and the impact on project productivity is great.
Where we have people working indendantly there is no need for review.
> When we don't need any reviews, I don't think we'll be wasting much
> time requesting them ;-)
> With having things in CVS, it will be much easier though, if we want
> some people to QA our work, as they can view the changes we made as
> diffs and find mistakes we did there more easily. Reading through the
> files on LXR could also be part of the work our internal QA people do
> (if an L10n project has some of those).
> Our process of creating a language pack will not differ in any way to
> what we are doing now, and we don't need a codebase for that. There's
> only an addtion to that: After having finished a language pack, we
> should unpack the jar files and check them into cvs and eventually add
> the right cvs tags to the files (release tags for certain releases etc.)
> Not all L10n people have or will have cvs access. I think MLP-staff
> people will volunteer to check in files of release packages if you
> have no account. I already said I'd volunteer for that, and that is
> still what I say now.
>
To add to that training and learning about the CVS is pretty simple for
the most basic functions. For most people all they will need to learn
are three simple commands once the system is set up.
cvs checkout
cvs update
cvs commit
more info on CVS is here https://www.cvshome.org/docs/blandy.html
> I think our work would be more transparent to others, and there would
> be additional value as that I described for QA. When the
> infrastructure is in place, we would even be ableto allow people
> building their own Mozilla from source with a different language than
> en-US supported.
> And satisfying the people who asked me where the source code for my
> project is, would be easier as well (though they have essentially the
> zipped source avialable in the jars already).
> Nobody should be forced to check in their files, but I think it would
> be recommended.
Absolutely. There are big wins for L10n contributors and for the
project where we can make this happen.
Thanks
Chris Hofmann
>
> I hope to have calmed some fears with that.
> We still lack a good directory structure for how to organize the files
> in CVS though. I'd be glad if people would add their ideas in that
> regard to http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57878
>
> Robert Kaiser
> _______________________________________________
> mozilla-l10n mailing list
> mozill...@mozilla.org
> http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-l10n
Giacomo Magnini
So what was the point in letting me write them down? That wasn't fair...
Guess you only wanted to fire up the discussion... Ok, let's go into
details then.
> Having the lang packs in CVS would make work easier for distributors (I
> had some tqalk with Ben Bucksch of Beonex about that topic) and possibly
> for other contributors to L10n, as they have the sources available in an
> easily readable format (they should be accessible via the LXR web pages).
Well, xpi/jar files are not different from zip ones (for mozilla use,
that is), so it's not mindblogging getting hold of them.
<rant mode>
Talking about distributors, I think we open a can of worms here...
Two examples:
- XXX distributes mozilla with their distro with plenty of mozilla
translations, so I guess they are collecting the translations from
mozilla.org (no sign of .po files for mozilla on their fedora docs
site): still, a few languages they ship are not available on mlp pages;
- YYY has (had?) a complete translation of the whole suite and
documentation (I think they deployed it as WebSphere Browser or
something in a bank here in Italy), going back to 0.9.8 times. They sent
me the help guide translation long ago, even if I never used in my
translations being scared about legal issues (YYY copyright and names
were all over the place).
So we should help distributors, but they are going their own way (at
least, they were), duplicating work and not working *with* the community.
I know this will pi** off many people here since both those companies
contribute so largely to mozilla, but someone needs to say this.
I don't mind if they use/distribute/sell my (only partly mine) work, but
I really hate wasting resources redoing things from scratch: this really
hurts, since companies pay their employees to finish up a task while we
are spending our *own* free (sometimes even not so much free) time...
</rant mode>
> I don't expect us to need r=/sr= for now, as language packs are not in
> the default builds, in a first step we might not even have the
> architecture to include them in a build process.
Will a "cvs co" pull also all the translations? I guess 1.5GB of space
for a debug build is more than enough. Adding translations will increase
the requirements for build systems, is this acceptable? I have my own
local non debug build (to keep up with changes in the help guide), but
adding many MBs of useless translations (useless since I cannot
understand more than a bunch of german words for example) won't make me
happy. I wonder how developers with 5 or 6 different builds will love
this...
> When we don't need any reviews, I don't think we'll be wasting much time
> requesting them ;-)
> With having things in CVS, it will be much easier though, if we want
> some people to QA our work, as they can view the changes we made as
> diffs and find mistakes we did there more easily. Reading through the
> files on LXR could also be part of the work our internal QA people do
> (if an L10n project has some of those).
Having no r= scheme will simplify the process, sure, but just postpone
the QA work to a later time, so what is the point? You save on review
time, but QA will take the same (or more) time (later): think about
reverting a widespread word change... More patches for bugzilla, more
hassle for people with cvs rights, more bugs to triage, etc. (I think
you got the point).
> Our process of creating a language pack will not differ in any way to
> what we are doing now, and we don't need a codebase for that. There's
> only an addtion to that: After having finished a language pack, we
> should unpack the jar files and check them into cvs and eventually add
> the right cvs tags to the files (release tags for certain releases etc.)
Checking those files in the cvs means having them in a local repository.
Different tags will mean different repositories, taking care of
different versions won't be so easy.
> Not all L10n people have or will have cvs access. I think MLP-staff
> people will volunteer to check in files of release packages if you have
> no account. I already said I'd volunteer for that, and that is still
> what I say now.
Good. If I'd send complete zip files (everything ending .html, .xhtml
and .rdf), will you handle the cvs submission for me? Maybe even a
script will help you doing this for different teams. Would this be
acceptable?
> I think our work would be more transparent to others, and there would be
> additional value as that I described for QA. When the infrastructure is
> in place, we would even be ableto allow people building their own
> Mozilla from source with a different language than en-US supported.
> And satisfying the people who asked me where the source code for my
> project is, would be easier as well (though they have essentially the
> zipped source avialable in the jars already).
I was approached by a Sun Italy engineer who wanted to build a localized
FB 0.7 for a demo: pointed him to the translation xpi, to the sources
and to some info on mozilla.org. He successfully mastered the process in
less than three working days: not so much pain I guess. Better docs will
lower the time frame without touching the tree.
> Nobody should be forced to check in their files, but I think it would be
> recommended.
I think this will be heading to a total mess, with many translations
being out of date or totally abandoned, especially if the Suite is going
to evolve (or dissolve) into a repackaging of FF/TB/whatever else, where
the translations are largely different.
> I hope to have calmed some fears with that.
Not a lot, if you had the patience to read until now... ;)
> We still lack a good directory structure for how to organize the files
> in CVS though. I'd be glad if people would add their ideas in that
> regard to http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57878
I'll read the bug and add my comments about structure there (if any).
Cheers, Giacomo.
PS. I think I could have used the real companies' names, but I'm sure
everybody understood who I was referring to. I'm grateful to what they
do/have done, but those are clear examples of wasted resources:
something I hate and something I think mozilla.org cannot overlook.
Giacomo Magnini
> No r=/sr= process is required or implied. This process is only use
> in the most complicated areas of the code where the possiblity of
> regressions is high, and the impact on project productivity is great.
> Where we have people working indendantly there is no need for review.
Ok, good, but please read my argument in the other reply to Kairo.
How will bugs/comments/QA be handled? Is it going to put pressure on
bugzilla and the people with cvs rights? What I'm saying is: how will
this impact the already "scarce" moz.org resources in any way?
> To add to that training and learning about the CVS is pretty simple for
> the most basic functions. For most people all they will need to learn
> are three simple commands once the system is set up.
> cvs checkout
> cvs update
> cvs commit
>
> more info on CVS is here https://www.cvshome.org/docs/blandy.html
Ok, that's not a big deal, I agree. But please consider we already have
to master at least these tools:
- MozillaTranslator
- jar/zip
- chmod :)
- generic text editor [one can use only this, but should have a table of
conversion for \uXXXX handy while working]
- UTF8 editor (for .rdf files) [one can use only these, but most of them
are uncomfortable]
Add another one for a newbie: do you really think we will attract more
people?
> Absolutely. There are big wins for L10n contributors and for the
> project where we can make this happen.
I can see the benefits for everybody and especially for mozilla.org, I'm
not against them. I just want to raise the attention on some rough
edges, and give another point of view.
Hope I don't seem just another whiner...
I know this issue has been raised before, but have you (as .org) ever
thought about moving the mozilla l10n stuff to more standard tools? .po
files are more common, tools for them are easy to find and constantly
updated, lots of users already have grips on them, and they adapt
beautifully to cvs. I know, this would involve huge changes, but since
other changes are undergoing to locale/content packs...
Cheers, Giacomo.
Benoit
I suppose I could speak for the French localization team here. We
curently have our own cvs at sourceforge.net, which allow us for example
to build automated "nighlty" xpi packages from the source if we want to
(targeted to the latest stable mozilla version only).
I fear that we wouldn't have the same flexibility on mozilla.org's
server and maintaining both systems synchronized woud probably require a
lot of work. But if l10n packages were built with the tree I assume we
could migrate.
What worries me too is how would the different versions be managed. We
all know that a package built for some version of mozilla will break in
another. I think most localizers aren't familiar at all with cvs tags,
trunk, branch and this kind of stuff.
But localization often happens *after* the release of a product, it
would probably never be on the trunk. At this moment though, I think the
builds from a branch are stopped immediately after a release, how would
you manage that?
YAMAGUCHI Satoru
Hash: SHA1
Hi
Asa Dotzler wrote:
| Something went wrong on my machine and I lost the logs I had of the IRC
| meetings held this week. If any of you have logs, please post them in a
| reply to this post. Thanks.
I'm yama at the irc "Asian" meeting on 11 June. I logged the meeting.
Here is the log:
************ starts here ************
[2004/06/11 10:03] <yama> right. :)
[2004/06/11 10:04] -->| yukichi (~fuku...@203-165-17-135.home.ne.jp)
has joined #l10n
[2004/06/11 10:04] <Asa> welcome yukichi.
[2004/06/11 10:04] <yukichi> Hello!
[2004/06/11 10:05] <yukichi> I am a staff of Mozilla-gumi
[2004/06/11 10:05] <yukichi> I am glad to meet you
[2004/06/11 10:05] <Asa> and I am happy to meet you, yukichi. I
visited Japan a few years ago and met with people from mozilla-gumi.
[2004/06/11 10:06] <Asa> at the 1.0 event.
[2004/06/11 10:06] <yukichi> I have heard about you by Mozilla-gumi
staffs.
[2004/06/11 10:07] <Asa> My wife and I had a wonderful time in Japan
[2004/06/11 10:07] -->| victoryfox (~vic...@218.228.192.75) has
joined #l10n
[2004/06/11 10:08] <yukichi> Oh! That is good.
[2004/06/11 10:08] <Asa> we visited Tokyo, Kyoto, Takayama, and other
wonderful cities.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <yukichi> I live in Tokyo.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <Asa> yama: where do you live?
[2004/06/11 10:09] <yama> Nagoya.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <Asa> yama: we visited Nagoya too.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <yukichi> wow!
[2004/06/11 10:09] <Asa> :D
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> really?
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> that's great.
[2004/06/11 10:10] <Asa> we went to himeji castle (spelling?)
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> yes,
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> it's one of the most beatiful castles in Japan.
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yukichi> I have not been to himeji (spelling O.K.)
[2004/06/11 10:11] <yama> probably one of the largest as well....
[2004/06/11 10:11] <Asa> we also stayed in Hakone and some other small
towns
[2004/06/11 10:11] <yukichi> ah ... today is localization meeting...
[2004/06/11 10:11] <Asa> hello victoryfox
[2004/06/11 10:12] <victoryfox> hello
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> yes, I would like to wait a few more minutes
before localization meeting starts.
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> to allow more people to join.
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> hopefully :)
[2004/06/11 10:12] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> victoryfox: where are you from?
[2004/06/11 10:14] <yama> victoryfox: is shy ;)
[2004/06/11 10:14] -->| okome (ok...@alma.as.wakwak.ne.jp) has joined
#l10n
[2004/06/11 10:14] |<-- victoryfox has left irc.mozilla.org (Read
error: Connection reset by peer)
[2004/06/11 10:14] <Asa> hello okome
[2004/06/11 10:14] -->| victoryfox_ (~vic...@218.228.192.75) has
joined #l10n
[2004/06/11 10:14] <Asa> welcome back victoryfox_.
[2004/06/11 10:14] <Asa> okome: where are you from?
[2004/06/11 10:15] <okome> hello
[2004/06/11 10:15] <okome> japan
[2004/06/11 10:15] <Asa> we have not started the meeting yet. we are
still waiting on more people to arrive (hopefully)
[2004/06/11 10:15] <yukichi> Yama, victoryfox, okome and I are all
Japanese...
[2004/06/11 10:15] <Asa> okome: ok. I was just telling yama and
yukichi about my trip to Japan. I had a wonderful time there.
[2004/06/11 10:15] =-= victoryfox_ is now known as victoryfox
[2004/06/11 10:15] <yama> anyone from other countries other than japan?
[2004/06/11 10:16] * Asa is from the U.S.
[2004/06/11 10:16] <Asa> KaiRo is from Germany, I believe. He's not
here for the meeting though. He created the channel for us.
[2004/06/11 10:16] <yama> ah! yes I know that :)
[2004/06/11 10:16] <yama> i see.
[2004/06/11 10:16] <victoryfox> is from Osaka
[2004/06/11 10:17] * Asa would like to visit Osaka next time he goes
to Japan.
[2004/06/11 10:17] <KaiRo> Asa: nope, not Germany, actually Austria.
but I'm doing german L10n :)
[2004/06/11 10:17] <yukichi> Asa: I have a question.
[2004/06/11 10:17] <yukichi> I have installed FC2 on Japanese mode.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <Asa> KaiRo: ahh. OK. I'll remember that.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <yukichi> but Mozilla on FC2 is not localized on
Japanese.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <yukichi> why?
[2004/06/11 10:18] * Asa has very little experience on FC2.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <Asa> yukichi: was it localized on FC1 ?
[2004/06/11 10:18] <yukichi> Yes. On FC1 is O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:19] <yukichi> but Mozilla on FC1 is 1.4.1 and on FC2 is 1.6
[2004/06/11 10:19] <Asa> maybe there wasn't a localization available
for that specific release?
[2004/06/11 10:19] <Asa> OK. I'm going to wait just a few more minutes
to see if anyone else shows up. We will start the meeting soon.
[2004/06/11 10:20] <yukichi> No. Japanese localized Moizlla 1.6 is
avarable
[2004/06/11 10:20] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> I was hoping some of the Chinese localizers
would be here.
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> yukichi: maybe it wasn't available when FC2
was made?
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> or maybe they just forgot :)
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> file a bug on them :)
[2004/06/11 10:21] <yukichi> No. FC2 was releaced on 18 May.
[2004/06/11 10:21] <Asa> it might have been "frozen" before that. I do
not know why they would not have Mozilla localized.
[2004/06/11 10:21] <yukichi> But Japanese localised Mozilla 1.6 was
releaced on May ...1 - 10?
[2004/06/11 10:21] <yukichi> nnn I understand
[2004/06/11 10:22] <Asa> I suggest someone file a bug at
bugzilla.redhat.com
[2004/06/11 10:22] <yukichi> Will Mozilla Foundation talk to Linux
Distoributers?
[2004/06/11 10:23] <yukichi> (poor English?)
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> OK. A good time to start the meeting?
[2004/06/11 10:23] <victoryfox> Distributers
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> yukichi: I have contacts at Red Hat. I can
ask them.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> I may also have Mozilla package contact at
Debian and I can ask them.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <yama> yep. we are ready.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <yukichi> Oh. please contact to Fedora Core staffs.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> I can try.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> OK. Let us begin.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <Asa> The primary topic I planned was to see who
was ready for the 1.7 release.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <Asa> We're planning on releasing on Tuesday of
next week.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <Asa> I'll update the schedule at
http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html after the meeting
[2004/06/11 10:25] <victoryfox> June.15
[2004/06/11 10:25] <Asa> we will need completed language packs by June
16.
[2004/06/11 10:25] <Asa> after tomorrow we will take no more changes
(we hope).
[2004/06/11 10:25] <Asa> so tomorrow's build is good to test the
language packs with.
[2004/06/11 10:26] <Asa> the late string changes are listed in these
bugs
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?bug_id=,57089,224318,234741,236060,236751,237687,238267,239082,241469,242979
[2004/06/11 10:26] <Asa> those are all of the changes to localizable
strings that happened since Beta.
[2004/06/11 10:27] <Asa> we tried hard not to take many changes after
beta, but we failed :(
[2004/06/11 10:27] <Asa> we will try harder for 1.8 :)
[2004/06/11 10:27] <yama> i see.
[2004/06/11 10:28] <yukichi> i see too
[2004/06/11 10:28] <Asa>
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=241469 and
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=236060 are the only two
recent changes.
[2004/06/11 10:28] <thebot> Asa: Bug 241469 maj, --, ---,
p...@us.ibm.com, REOP, Help interface not keyboard accessible
[2004/06/11 10:28] <KaiRo> Asa: are any of those changes after RC3?
[2004/06/11 10:28] <thebot> Asa: Bug 236060 tri, --, ---,
stef...@hem.utfors.se, VERI FIXED, Shouldn't refer to "Mozilla menu
on Mac" OS X in "System" section
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> i expect windows build will be fine by 16
June, BUT
[2004/06/11 10:29] <Asa> KaiRo: I don't think so.
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> i don't know if we make OS X version by that
tiem.
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> as far as Japanese localizations go.
[2004/06/11 10:29] <Asa> KaiRo: I believe that we may have taken one
change for the documentation but most people don't localize the help
documentation, right?
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> we do :)
[2004/06/11 10:29] <Asa> yama: OK.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <KaiRo> Asa: if they aren't, then any RC3 language
packs should theoretically be fully compatible with final...
[2004/06/11 10:30] <Asa> OK. then look over those bugs carefully and
note any changes. I'll look too.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <Asa> I should look quickly.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <Asa> I'll check now.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <KaiRo> Asa: yes, I think help is quite rarely
translated. (and it's only partly in German builds)
[2004/06/11 10:31] <yama> about help contents
[2004/06/11 10:31] <Asa>
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=242979 chanced since rc3,
I thinkg.
[2004/06/11 10:31] <thebot> Asa: Bug 242979 tri, --, ---,
neil.parkw...@myrealbox.com, RESO FIXED, File -> Upload File
needs an access key
[2004/06/11 10:32] <Asa> I am wrong. that was May 10, not June 10
[2004/06/11 10:32] <Asa> sorry.
[2004/06/11 10:32] <KaiRo> ok, sounds good
[2004/06/11 10:33] <Asa>
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=241469 might have landed
after rc3. I'm checking
[2004/06/11 10:33] <thebot> Asa: Bug 241469 maj, --, ---,
p...@us.ibm.com, REOP, Help interface not keyboard accessible
[2004/06/11 10:34] <Asa> no. it was checked in before RC3
[2004/06/11 10:34] <yukichi> o.k.
[2004/06/11 10:34] <Asa> so it looks like no l10n changes after RC3.
[2004/06/11 10:34] <Asa> So RC3 language packs should work with 1.7 Final.
[2004/06/11 10:35] <yama> as for RC3
[2004/06/11 10:35] <yama> windows build is available right now
[2004/06/11 10:36] <Asa> OK.
[2004/06/11 10:36] <yama> Mac, linux and free bsd are currently under
development.
[2004/06/11 10:36] <Asa> the second thing I wanted to ask about is
what you all think belongs in a language pack.
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> some people want to change lots of things
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> but we will need to decide what is allowed to
be changed.
[2004/06/11 10:37] <yama> for example?
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> for example, bookmarks, start page, sidebars,
search engines, etc.
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> things other than the actual UI strings.
[2004/06/11 10:38] <yama> humm...
[2004/06/11 10:38] <yukichi> ah...nnnn
[2004/06/11 10:38] <yama> many Japanese users seem to want Japanese
interfaces and
[2004/06/11 10:38] <yama> Japanese contents,
[2004/06/11 10:38] <Asa> I think that for official language packs that
get included on the CDs in the future (1.8, 1.9, 1.10, etc.) we may
not allow changes to bookmarks or start page.
[2004/06/11 10:39] <Asa> unless "approved" by mozilla.org
[2004/06/11 10:39] <yama> i know that.
[2004/06/11 10:39] <Asa> we have not decided yet. but we need to
discuss and plan for 1.8.
[2004/06/11 10:39] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:39] <Asa> are there more changes that you all would
like to make?
[2004/06/11 10:40] <yama> start page
[2004/06/11 10:40] <yama> search engines
[2004/06/11 10:40] <yukichi> encodings for default
[2004/06/11 10:40] <yama> bookmarks as well
[2004/06/11 10:40] <yama> probably sidebar contents
[2004/06/11 10:41] <yukichi> accept languages
[2004/06/11 10:41] <yama> many japanese users want "japanized" mozilla,
[2004/06/11 10:41] <Asa> yes. I understand that.
[2004/06/11 10:42] <yama> the only problem so far is
[2004/06/11 10:42] <yukichi> translation bookmarkets? no?
[2004/06/11 10:42] <yama> that it takes time for mozilla.org to grant
our changes
[2004/06/11 10:42] <yama> because there are so many changes with
Japanized mozilla.
[2004/06/11 10:43] <Asa> code changes? like bug fixes?
[2004/06/11 10:43] <yama> yes for example
[2004/06/11 10:43] <yama> some Jpanese imput method is not well
compatible with mozilla...
[2004/06/11 10:43] <yama> and we are struggling to solve the problem.
[2004/06/11 10:44] <Asa> Yes. We need to get those bugs fixed on the
core mozilla so that you do not have to change it in the Japanese build.
[2004/06/11 10:45] <Asa> What you are doing is more like a "Mozilla
distribution" or custom Mozilla. It is not so much a Mozilla
Localization because it is very different from official Mozilla.
[2004/06/11 10:45] <yukichi> and i want use input methods through gtk+
immodule on Mozilla
[2004/06/11 10:46] <yama> Asa: you are right. we have so many
japanised versions of mozilla and
[2004/06/11 10:46] <yama> it's difficult which is "official"
[2004/06/11 10:46] <yama> there are variety of needs from users...
[2004/06/11 10:46] <Asa> I think we would like "official" builds, the
ones on the CD to be simple localizations with no code changes and
only localized UI strings.
[2004/06/11 10:47] <yukichi> so difficult....
[2004/06/11 10:47] <yama> Asa: i understand your point.
[2004/06/11 10:47] <yama> but
[2004/06/11 10:47] <yama> for example
[2004/06/11 10:47] <Asa> I understand that many Japanese users would
like more changes.
[2004/06/11 10:47] <yukichi> for Japanese, Input methods is nessesary
for using Mozilla.
[2004/06/11 10:47] <yama> 1.6 has a bug particular to CJK builds with
mozilla mail.
[2004/06/11 10:48] <Asa> but if it is called "Mozilla" and the changes
might make it not as good (new bugs?) that would reflect poorly on
mozilla.org
[2004/06/11 10:48] <yama> humm... that's a good point.
[2004/06/11 10:48] <yukichi> so, bugs by IM are very wrong using Mozilla.
[2004/06/11 10:48] <Asa> so for code changes, we should try very hard
to get those fixed in the main Mozilla so that you don't have to make
code changes in localized version.
[2004/06/11 10:48] <yukichi> i understand you too.
[2004/06/11 10:49] <Asa> can you tell me the bugzilla bugs for the
problems that you have to fix in japanized Mozilla?
[2004/06/11 10:49] <Asa> if we can get the bugs fixed in the official
Mozilla, then we save everyone some work.
[2004/06/11 10:49] <yama> wait for a moment...
[2004/06/11 10:50] <Asa> ok.
[2004/06/11 10:52] <yama> i can't find the right bug..
[2004/06/11 10:53] <Asa> if you can find it, please email me
a...@mozilla.org
[2004/06/11 10:53] <yama> right. thanks.
[2004/06/11 10:53] <Asa> so we should continue this discussion in the
newsgroup too
[2004/06/11 10:54] <yama> ok i'll remember that.
[2004/06/11 10:54] <yama> localization is the right place for this?
[2004/06/11 10:54] <Asa> I will post this IRC log in n.p.m.l10n with
the log from tomorrow's meeting with Europe people.
[2004/06/11 10:55] <yama> that's fine.
[2004/06/11 10:55] <yukichi> oh good.
[2004/06/11 10:55] <Asa> Also, we will plan another meeting for
Firefox when we are about to do Firefox 1.0 beta.
[2004/06/11 10:55] <yukichi> multibyte users and singlebyte user have
a deep ...
[2004/06/11 10:58] <Asa> deep?
[2004/06/11 10:58] <yukichi> ahh,.... deep river
[2004/06/11 10:58] <yukichi> O.K. (poor English)
[2004/06/11 10:58] <yukichi> ?
[2004/06/11 10:58] <yama> ?
[2004/06/11 10:59] <Asa> ?
[2004/06/11 10:59] <yama> :)
[2004/06/11 10:59] <yukichi> Slot
[2004/06/11 10:59] <yama> deep gap?
[2004/06/11 10:59] <yukichi> so that's
[2004/06/11 10:59] <Asa> ahh. OK. I understand.
[2004/06/11 11:00] <yama> as a whole we are doing a good job.
[2004/06/11 11:00] <yama> regardless of languages.
[2004/06/11 11:01] <yama> the only problem is that
[2004/06/11 11:01] <yama> bugs particular to multibyte users is very
difficult to find out,
[2004/06/11 11:01] <victoryfox> i recommends to install eijiro(;-D
[2004/06/11 11:01] <yama> and it's often too late to be fixed for
releases.
[2004/06/11 11:01] <Asa> yama: yes. I understand that. We need to
identify those bugs and mozilla.org can try to help find resources to
fix them.
[2004/06/11 11:02] <yukichi> I remenber your saying < victoryfox
[2004/06/11 11:03] <Asa> I think we can do a better job of fixing
those bugs if we have more help to identify them.
[2004/06/11 11:04] <yama> that's right.
[2004/06/11 11:04] <yukichi> that's right.
[2004/06/11 11:04] <yama> we'll work harder to report those bugs to
bugzilla.org
[2004/06/11 11:04] <yama> not just among japanese users.
[2004/06/11 11:04] <Asa> and for that we need you all to help. if you
have bugs that make japan Mozilla a bad user experience, please email
dri...@mozilla.org
[2004/06/11 11:05] <yama> we'll do.
[2004/06/11 11:05] <Asa> do you all have more questions for me?
[2004/06/11 11:05] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 11:05] <yama> shall we wrap up things we discussed so far?
[2004/06/11 11:05] <Asa> I will put this IRC log in n.p.m.l10n and we
can continue some discussion there.
[2004/06/11 11:05] <yama> good.
[2004/06/11 11:06] <Asa> so, release on Tuesday next week. Language
packs for CD on next Wednesday.
[2004/06/11 11:06] <Asa> bugs that impact localization -- email
dri...@mozilla.org
[2004/06/11 11:06] <Asa> in newsgroup, continue discussion about what
goes into localization (bookmarks, start page, etc.)
[2004/06/11 11:07] <Asa> anything more?
[2004/06/11 11:07] <yukichi> whom do we report localization bugs?
[2004/06/11 11:07] <yukichi> for who?
[2004/06/11 11:07] <yama> drivers.
[2004/06/11 11:07] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 11:07] <Asa> if it's a bug like in core IME or something
like that.
[2004/06/11 11:08] <Asa> the kinds of bugs that you put in Japanized
Mozilla that should be put into official Mozilla core.
[2004/06/11 11:08] <yama> right.
[2004/06/11 11:09] <Asa> Thank you all for coming. Please email me if
you have more questions that I did not answer here. a...@mozilla.org
[2004/06/11 11:09] <yama> Asa: thank you, too.
[2004/06/11 11:10] <yukichi> Thank you.
[2004/06/11 11:10] <Asa> good night.
[2004/06/11 11:11] <yukichi> it is 11:00 am in Japan :)
[2004/06/11 11:11] <Asa> heh.
[2004/06/11 11:11] <yukichi> good night!
[2004/06/11 11:11] <Asa> good morning, then.
[2004/06/11 11:11] <Asa> it's 7:05PM in California.
[2004/06/11 11:11] <yukichi> Oh!
[2004/06/11 11:11] <Asa> I will go home and have dinner now.
[2004/06/11 11:12] <Asa> long day at the office :-)
[2004/06/11 11:12] <Asa> tomorrow morning I get up early to talk to
Europe people.
[2004/06/11 11:12] <yukichi> we will lanch ... maybe
[2004/06/11 11:12] <Asa> bye. thanks again for participating in this
discussion. we should talk more often.
[2004/06/11 11:13] <yama> Asa: bye
[2004/06/11 11:13] <yama> :)
[2004/06/11 11:13] <--| Asa has left #l10n
[2004/06/11 11:13] <yukichi> do your best
[2004/06/11 11:16] |<-- KaiRo has left irc.mozilla.org (Remote host
closed the connection)
************ ends here ************
This is it. There are quite a few comments on the meeting among
Japanese developers. I wish I could report those comments, but I'm
just too busy to do that. :-(
Yours,
Satoru.
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KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
> for a debug build is more than enough. Adding translations will increase
> the requirements for build systems, is this acceptable? I have my own
> local non debug build (to keep up with changes in the help guide), but
> adding many MBs of useless translations (useless since I cannot
> understand more than a bunch of german words for example) won't make me
> happy. I wonder how developers with 5 or 6 different builds will love
> this...
I don't think we should change the SeaMonkey module that it pulled
currently, as this would really mess up. Default builds/pulls shouldn't
be any different from now. How we add the possibility to include some
L10n in a custom build should be discussed after having some files
there. We could possibly make it possible to just pull the wanted
locale(s) in this case.
> Having no r= scheme will simplify the process, sure, but just postpone
> the QA work to a later time, so what is the point? You save on review
> time, but QA will take the same (or more) time (later): think about
> reverting a widespread word change... More patches for bugzilla, more
> hassle for people with cvs rights, more bugs to triage, etc. (I think
> you got the point).
I don't really get your point:
The process is not different than now - You already have (or have not)
some QA happening afterwards now, I believe. And how you deal with that
isn't influenced by having the files available in CVS in addtion to what
you're doing now.
> Checking those files in the cvs means having them in a local repository.
> Different tags will mean different repositories, taking care of
> different versions won't be so easy.
Why do you need a local repository for that? I don't understand what you
want to tell...
>> Not all L10n people have or will have cvs access. I think MLP-staff
>> people will volunteer to check in files of release packages if you
>> have no account. I already said I'd volunteer for that, and that is
>> still what I say now.
>
> Good. If I'd send complete zip files (everything ending .html, .xhtml
> and .rdf), will you handle the cvs submission for me? Maybe even a
> script will help you doing this for different teams. Would this be
> acceptable?
Absolutely.
>> Nobody should be forced to check in their files, but I think it would
>> be recommended.
>
> I think this will be heading to a total mess, with many translations
> being out of date or totally abandoned, especially if the Suite is going
> to evolve (or dissolve) into a repackaging of FF/TB/whatever else, where
> the translations are largely different.
That's not different to what we already have now, I believe.
> I'll read the bug and add my comments about structure there (if any).
Thanks. (We still have some open issues with my proposal there)
Robert Kaiser
KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
> curently have our own cvs at sourceforge.net, which allow us for example
> to build automated "nighlty" xpi packages from the source if we want to
> (targeted to the latest stable mozilla version only).
>
> I fear that we wouldn't have the same flexibility on mozilla.org's
> server and maintaining both systems synchronized woud probably require a
> lot of work. But if l10n packages were built with the tree I assume we
> could migrate.
I guess it would also be possible to only update the mozilla.org tree
with your final packages. But as you're a unique case here, I think
we'll be able to find a good solution together.
As you have some experience with managing locale resources in a cvs
tree, could you add some comment to my proposal in the bug report I
mentioned? I'm still unsure about a few lose ends in that proposal.
> What worries me too is how would the different versions be managed. We
> all know that a package built for some version of mozilla will break in
> another. I think most localizers aren't familiar at all with cvs tags,
> trunk, branch and this kind of stuff.
True. I'm not completely sure yet how to deal with trunk vs. branches /
release tags in those cases where we only have files for final releases.
But I'm sure we figure out a way we can go...
> But localization often happens *after* the release of a product, it
> would probably never be on the trunk. At this moment though, I think the
> builds from a branch are stopped immediately after a release, how would
> you manage that?
Regular builds (nightlies) might not happen there, but I don't think
we'll have L10n included in those. and if we have to build our own
builds or something similar, I don't see any problem here (provided we
set the branch/release tags correctly).
Robert Kaiser
David Fraser
> I know this issue has been raised before, but have you (as .org) ever
> thought about moving the mozilla l10n stuff to more standard tools? .po
> files are more common, tools for them are easy to find and constantly
> updated, lots of users already have grips on them, and they adapt
> beautifully to cvs. I know, this would involve huge changes, but since
> other changes are undergoing to locale/content packs...
> Cheers, Giacomo.
If you want to translate mozilla using po files, you can ...
See http://translate.sourceforge.net/ and ask here or on the
translate-devel list if you need help...
They are not native to mozilla but you can use them to manage all your
translations and the conversion to/from .dtd and .properties files is
fairly simple (and getting simpler)
David
Giacomo Magnini
> If you want to translate mozilla using po files, you can ...
> See http://translate.sourceforge.net/ and ask here or on the
> translate-devel list if you need help...
> They are not native to mozilla but you can use them to manage all your
> translations and the conversion to/from .dtd and .properties files is
> fairly simple (and getting simpler)
I don't think I've expressed myself correctly.
It's not that I *want* to use po files, I was just hinting that adding
more and more tools for a non-standard way of localizing software, will
probably end up in scaring away new possible contributors. Switching to
more common tools (which, btw, better suit the proposed integration in
the cvs), would be painfull at start, but may have a longer term reward.
Sorry I wasn't clear.
Cheers, Giacomo.
Giacomo Magnini
> I don't think we should change the SeaMonkey module that it pulled
> currently, as this would really mess up. Default builds/pulls shouldn't
> be any different from now. How we add the possibility to include some
> L10n in a custom build should be discussed after having some files
> there. We could possibly make it possible to just pull the wanted
> locale(s) in this case.
Good.
> I don't really get your point:
> The process is not different than now - You already have (or have not)
> some QA happening afterwards now, I believe. And how you deal with that
> isn't influenced by having the files available in CVS in addtion to what
> you're doing now.
Now Qa contacts send me their corrected files or annotations, which I
integrate: will they be forced to use cvs in the future to submit
changes (which I or somebody else will have to check-in)?
> Why do you need a local repository for that? I don't understand what you
> want to tell...
Sorry for not being clear. I imagine having a few pulls of the
translation (at least one for stable and the other for trunk) to use a
base for diffs: now, I was fearing of having full development trees just
to do that. A total waste of hd space (since I don't do C++ :) )...
>> Good. If I'd send complete zip files (everything ending .html, .xhtml
>> and .rdf), will you handle the cvs submission for me? Maybe even a
>> script will help you doing this for different teams. Would this be
>> acceptable?
> Absolutely.
Deal.
> That's not different to what we already have now, I believe.
Maybe you're right there: at least it would be simplier to resume work
starting from what have been checked into the tree(if any).
Cheers, Giacomo.
KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
> integrate: will they be forced to use cvs in the future to submit
> changes (which I or somebody else will have to check-in)?
They won't be forced to do anything. They and you decide how to use or
not use that all. It's the same for deciding who is checking in changes
if you do use the CVS repository.
> Sorry for not being clear. I imagine having a few pulls of the
> translation (at least one for stable and the other for trunk) to use a
> base for diffs: now, I was fearing of having full development trees just
> to do that. A total waste of hd space (since I don't do C++ :) )...
CVS is able to only pull a bunch of files or a certain directory. You
don't have to have zillions of files lying around that you don't use
actively.
> Maybe you're right there: at least it would be simplier to resume work
> starting from what have been checked into the tree(if any).
I'm quite sure of that.
Robert Kaiser
Henrik Lynggaard
> I don't think I've expressed myself correctly.
> It's not that I *want* to use po files, I was just hinting that adding
> more and more tools for a non-standard way of localizing software, will
> probably end up in scaring away new possible contributors. Switching to
> more common tools (which, btw, better suit the proposed integration in
> the cvs), would be painfull at start, but may have a longer term reward.
> Sorry I wasn't clear.
Just remember that *common* tools, is not just linux tools. They must
fit (read: work well, not just barely runable) with Windows and mac as
well..
Caio Begotti
>Giacomo Magnini wrote:
>> I don't think I've expressed myself correctly.
>> It's not that I *want* to use po files[...]
>
>Just remember that *common* tools, is not just linux tools. They must
>fit (read: work well, not just barely runable) with Windows and mac as
>well..
Yes, it does - .po files aren't a Linux-only resource.
--
Caio Begotti