Something went wrong on my machine and I lost the logs I had of the IRC
meetings held this week. If any of you have logs, please post them in a
reply to this post. Thanks.

 From my memory of the meeting:

*Release of 1.7 (downloads) will happen on Tuesday, June 15.

*Language packs for 1.7 need to be contributed by noon PDT on Wednesday,
June 16.

*If you've got a language pack for 1.7 (RC 3 packs should work fine in
final) please note that information in bug
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246366

*Legal concerns about inclusion of GPL spellchecker dictionaries in
mozilla.org-hosted builds.

*Discussion about what localizers would like to include in language packs.
        *localized UI strings
        *accept language?
        *default charset?
        *bookmarks
        *sidebars
        *start page
        *UI links like release notes
        *more??

*Getting localizations into CVS. Some people want this, some don't. No
plan yet.

*Communication with localizers improved with late-l10n keywords, a
better (but not perfect) UI freeze, IRC meetings, and release status
page http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html.

*Suggestion for the CD that localizers make a stub (net) installer and
XPIs and re-use the core XPIs for browser, mail, etc.

*Minimum localization to be included on the CD is "reasonably complete
localization of Browser, MailNews, and Composer, and their sub-windows
like bookmarks, preferences, etc." but not necessarily Chatzilla,
Venkman, and Help content.

If you've got logs or can add to or comment on this list, please do so.
Thanks.

????? Asa Dotzler:

i forgot to add during the IRC chat: my localization also has a
different set of themes. these are the classic and modern themes, with
some of the graphics and CSS flipped horizontally, to fit a RTL UI.

--
Tsahi Asher
Hebrew L10n Team
http://www.mozilla.org.il

This is my log from the European l10n meeting.  Times are BST (ie UTC+1)

[15:55] <SLMalling> good afternoon :-)
[15:56] <tsahi> it's early evening here, but goodmorning anyway :)
[15:56] <Asa> it's nearly 8am here :)
[15:56] <ast> good evening here
[15:57] -->| thirdhand (~thirdhand@***************) has joined #l10n
[15:59] <Asa> Let's wait a few extra minutes to see if others show up.
[15:59] =-= mrt is now known as mrt_en-GB
[16:00] <mrt_en-GB> hi all (opting for a time-neutral greeting)
[16:00] =-= thirdhand is now known as thirdhand_nb-NO
[16:00] <Asa> :)
[16:00] <leaf> rheeetings
[16:01] <Asa> mornin' leaf.
[16:01] =-= filip is now known as filip_fr-FR
[16:01] <filip_fr-FR> Good evening
[16:01] *leaf is here to try and prevent the fiasco of the last release cd
[16:01] <Asa> good evenin' filip_fr-FR.
[16:01] <Asa> leaf: but we _love_ fiascos!
[16:02] <leaf> i don't mind a good fiasco when it's someone else's
fault, but not when it's mine
[16:02] <Asa> it's how we operate ;-)
[16:02] <leaf> and it was definitely my bad
[16:02] <tsahi> how do i change my nick?
[16:02] <Asa> tsahi: type /nick <new nick>
[16:03] =-= tsahi is now known as tsahi_hi-IL
[16:03] =-= tsahi_hi-IL is now known as tsahi_he-IL
[16:05] <Asa> I was hoping we'd have a few more people here.
[16:05] <tsahi_he-IL> it /was/ a short notice
[16:05] *Asa requests that people either introduce themselves and the
locale they represent or change their nicks like several have done.
[16:05] <Asa> yeah. it was. sorry 'bout that.
[16:05] <filip_fr-FR> Yep, just learn about it 10 min ago
[16:06] <filip_fr-FR> :)
[16:06] =-= SLMalling is now known as SLMalling_da-DK
[16:06] =-= peterv is now known as peterv_neutral
[16:06] *filip_fr-FR is part of the frenchmozilla team who is
responsible for the french translation of the mozilla products.
[16:06] =-= ast is now known as xose_ast-ES
[16:07] <Asa> OK. I suppose we can get started.
[16:07] <filip_fr-FR> I'm responsible of the firefox translation (with
the help of the others members)
[16:07] <Asa> I wanted to cover just a few quick points this meeting and
then open it up for general discussion (complaints, suggestions, etc.)
[16:07] =-= Henkari is now known as Henkari_fi-FI
[16:07] -->| Gunner-P (~GunnerPou@***************) has joined #l10n
[16:08] <Asa> the first was to let you all know that the website release
of Mozilla 1.7 final is scheduled for next Tuesday mid-day (PDT)
[16:08] =-= Gunner-P is now known as Gunner-P-DK
[16:09] <Asa> that's Tuesday, June 15.
[16:09] <Asa> our goal is to collect all of the language packs for the
CD by wednesday (June 16).
[16:10] <Asa> the bad news is that we did take quite a few changes that
impacted localizable strings after 1.7 beta when we tried to freeze them.
[16:10] <Asa> you can see that list of bugs by querying for the keyword
late-l10n
[16:10] <Asa> the good news is that we didn't (I think) take any changes
after RC 3.
[16:11] <Asa> so RC3 language packs should work with Final.
[16:11] <Asa> do any of you know of anything that changed after RC3 that
would impact localizations?
[16:11] <Asa> I tried to make sure nothing was approved and kept a close
eye on checkins (but I'm not a localization expert so I may have missed
something)
[16:11] <tsahi_he-IL> at least, nothing was posted to n.p.m.l10n
[16:13] <Asa> if anyone does find anything (I hope not) please post to
the newsgroup so everyone can benefit from your discovery.
[16:13] <Asa> leaf: am I right that they should contact you with their
language packs for inclusion on the CD?
[16:13] <leaf> actually, it'd be better for me to poll the published
list of packs
[16:13] <leaf> which i discovered *after* the last cd
[16:14] <leaf> can someone point me to that list?
[16:14] <tsahi_he-IL> i usually just update mozillatranslator with the
new en-US.jar, i don't look for new additions in bugzilla
[16:14] <Asa> OK. so you'll look at the list at
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/l10n/mlp_status.html#moz_1.7rc3
[16:14] <tsahi_he-IL>
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/l10n/mlp_status.html#projects but it's
not updated so fast
[16:15] <Asa>
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/l10n/mlp_status.html#moz_1.7 actually, I
guess
[16:15] <tsahi_he-IL> it usually takes a day or two for the MLP staff to
update it
[16:15] <Asa> how about the newsgroup or Bugzilla?
[16:15] <Asa> I could start a bug or a newsgroup thread for everyone to
put their information.
[16:16] <Asa> would that work?
[16:16] <leaf> having something persistent, that isn't my mail, would be
ideal
[16:16] <tsahi_he-IL> maybe a better idea is to look at the newsgroup
[16:16] <leaf> newsgroups, for instance
[16:16] <mrt_en-GB> newsgroups or bugzilla would be fine.  I guess
bugzilla is more robust
[16:17] <tsahi_he-IL> it could also be a mozillazine thread.
[16:17] <Asa> OK. I will start a bugzilla bug. localizers all have
bugzilla accounts, I'm sure.
[16:17] <Asa> I'll post a notice to the newsgroup pointing to the bug.
[16:17] <tsahi_he-IL> what about firefox packs?
[16:17] <Asa> and if mozillazine will post it, I'll submit a notice there.
[16:18] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: We still haven't settled on how we're going
to handle Firefox localizations.
[16:18] <Asa> there are more complicated questions about trademark and
quality with Firefox localizations.
[16:18] <xose_ast-ES> should we just upload just the langABCD.xpi pack,
or installables too?
[16:18] <tsahi_he-IL> and documentation
[16:18] <Asa> we're working to make a policy for Firefox -- which will
probably be more strict about what is allowed in a localization than
what is allowed for SeaMonkey.
[16:19] <Asa> I believe that for the CD we are looking for language pack
XPIs and not complete builds.
[16:19] <peterv_neutral> ah, so you won't ship installers on the CD?
[16:20] <Asa> peterv_neutral: I believe that was what we decided the
plan was for 1.6. Should we change that?
[16:20] <Gunner-P-DK> Asa are there going to be any changes til the
xxx.ini files for the installers in Linux, Win and Mac betwen 1.7RC3 and
Final?
[16:20] <Asa> peterv_neutral: I feel much more comfortable with our
official builds actually working and not being tampered with too much.
[16:20] <peterv_neutral> well, we discussed this a while back during
staff and I thought you planned to ship installers
[16:20] <peterv_neutral> right
[16:20] <Gunner-P-DK> exept 1.7rc3 > 1.7
[16:21] <peterv_neutral> oh well, because as you know we have been
working at making installers with Mozilla Europe
[16:21] <Asa> Ugh. I thought when we discussed it at staff the plan was
to explicitely _not_ ship installers.
[16:21] -->| Benoit (~benoua@********************) has joined #l10n
[16:21] <leaf> Gunner-P-DK: there shouldn't be.
[16:21] <Asa> peterv_neutral: OK. maybe I mis-understood. perhaps
"official" mozilla-europe installers.
[16:21] <peterv_neutral> hihi
[16:21] <peterv_neutral> ok
[16:22] <leaf> peterv_neutral: maybe we need another cd distribution for
europe?
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> I'll make the installers
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> you can decide to take them or not
[16:22] <Asa> peterv_neutral: mostly I'm concerned about people
building, for example, on a linux environment that's not as widely
compatible as ours or something like that.
[16:22] <Asa> or building with extensions that we don't support, etc.
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> well, ours are repackaged with the default
installer
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> so we don't rebuild
[16:22] <peterv_neutral> we just repackage
[16:23] <Asa> peterv_neutral: that makes me feel much more comfortabl. I
think it's reasonable to include those.
[16:23] <tsahi_he-IL> there's no need to build mozilla to create a
localized installer
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> and we don't include nothing but localizations
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> ok
[16:23] <filip_fr-FR> Same here  for mozilla and firefox
[16:23] -->| Hasse (~Hasse@**********************) has joined #l10n
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> so I'll make them ready and I'll let you guys know
[16:23] <Asa> peterv_neutral: the japanese localization would make your
head spin. it's really a "distribution" that they patch heavily and make
other significant modifications to. It's that kind of thing that worries me.
[16:23] <peterv_neutral> and I'll let you know how we build them
[16:24] <Asa> leaf: is room on the CD a concern?
[16:24] <leaf> ok, so if we're going to include that stuff
[16:24] <leaf> no, we have lots of space
[16:24] <peterv_neutral> leaf: are you proposing to come to Europe to
make CD's?
[16:24] <peterv_neutral> :-D
[16:24] <leaf> we have to decide where it goes on the cs
[16:24] <leaf> cds
[16:24] <Asa> ok. what about organization?
[16:24] <leaf> peterv_neutral: sure :)
[16:24] <leaf> right, organization
[16:24] <Asa> yeah. I think we want to put installers in a differnt
category than xpis
[16:25] <Asa> how about a folder called "locales" with two folders
inside, one for "language packs" and one for "localized installers"
[16:26] <tsahi_he-IL> i'm not sure localizers are nessesarily interested
in these details
[16:27] <Asa> OK. do any of you have further questions about the CD?
[16:27] <Asa> before I move on to the next topic?
[16:27] <tsahi_he-IL> so do you want installers or not?
[16:27] <SLMalling_da-DK> are installeres only windows-installers?
[16:27] <tsahi_he-IL> in addition to the xpis
[16:28] <Asa> tsahi_he-IL: I'd prefer language pack XPIs but we'll
accept installers if they're simply repackaging of the official installer.
[16:28] <tsahi_he-IL> ok
[16:28] <xose_ast-ES> the main concern I see is that with the
installaers the "installation" is also localized
[16:28] <leaf> SLMalling_da-DK: we also have windows installers
[16:28] <Asa> If you include installers, it would be nice to include
them for each platform. I know that will be ...

read more »

That should include Firefox (and to a lesser extend Thunderbird), for
which some of us would appreciate specific IRC meetings (with the
devs?). There seems to be a far lowest interest from the team for
localization issues than with the suite (with the exception of Pierre
Chanial and David Hyatt who have been very receptive to comments and
suggestions in the past).

A string freeze before 1.0 (after RC something) would also be very
appreciated.

--
Geckozone - Aide et infos sur les produits basés sur Mozilla
http://www.geckozone.org/

Sorry I forgot, it has been said that the size of mail_help.xhtml is a
big concern for teams localizing help content. It means (besides other
problems) that we can't properly divide the work between our countributors.

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246405

--
Geckozone - Aide et infos sur les produits basés sur Mozilla
http://www.geckozone.org/

There was also some discussion about concerns with future trademark
issues with icons, graphics for Firefox + Thunderbird and the effect
this has on localizers...
And there was a general feeling that there needs to be a meeting on
Firefox / Thunderbird issues sometime soon as there are a number of
issues with extension managers etc

David

First of all, I deeply apologize for not being there, my fault.
Second, thanks to Asa and Leaf for taking away some of their precious
time helping out us poor localizers! :)
You'll find my personal views and notes below.
Cheers, Giacomo.

Done.

 > *Discussion about what localizers would like to include in language
packs.
 >     *localized UI strings
 >     *accept language?
 >     *default charset?
 >     *bookmarks
 >     *sidebars
 >     *start page
 >     *UI links like release notes
 >     *more??

I do understand your issues there, but seems to me no final word was
given. We include some bookmarks, some search engines and a reduced
dictionary (GPL licensed, with authorization to cut down on the size)
from OOo people: should we rip them off the Langpack?
The start pages are *not* included in the LP, but the relevant strings
in .dtd/.properties have been modified to head onto our site for the
translated starting pages (get-started, releases, README, a few others).
Our translated pages do not use any of the mozilla.org layout or
graphics, we just translate the content and apply our own "design"
(we're Italian after all! :) ). Is this ok? Should we stop immediately
doing so? Should we point to mozeu.org instead? A final word on this
would be really appreciated...

I'm not for it. Just my €0,02... :)

It helped a lot! The only bit I've complained about is Chatzilla: since
  completely new versions are being dropped in with, at times,
*hundreds* of new strings (even unused ones), it's a major pain to get
on par with the translation. I've told this to Silver and rginda, and
they seem to understand the issue, so I hope to consider this as solved,
but please keep an eye on it (since cz is shipped with the official
mozilla build).

I support the idea of having a good HOWTO... :)

We have all of them already translated, and version 1.7 will be the
first release with a fully translated help guide (a major archivement
for us, thanks to everybody who did contribute!). I'm hoping to add
Calendar to the lp in the near future. And many thanks to Kairo for all
of his help and install scripts! :)
What about whitelisting/locale xpi stuff in rc3? I hope the old policy
will be back, at least for 1.7 final...

If and when a FF/TB chat will be held, please spread the word in
advance, since that's where most of l10n problems lie nowadays...
Thanks all, Giacomo (it-IT Team).

For what reasons?
Those would be quite interesting in figuring out what to do next on this
issue...

Greetings,

Robert Kaiser

KaiRo - Robert Kaiser ha scritto:

Well, I think that pushing the translations onto the cvs will make my
(and maybe others') life actually harder...
Why should I learn the ins and outs of another tool (cvs)?
Will cvs simplify the process? I fear not, since managing accounts could
be a pain and a time consuming task.
What about the r= and (maybe?) sr= stuff? I thought the problem with moz
development was the time wasted by developers to get things reviewed and
checked in. What about reviewing changes in a language different from
english? Ok, the qa contact or whatever can superview changes, but that
would mean more time wasted. In my situation I think I'm going to r= my
own changes: how good would that be? Do we earn something to go trough
all of this? I will have to spend my time on bugzilla instead of
refining the translation or adding missing bits and pieces.
Will it be simplier for different/new translators to pick up the job? Or
would it be another barrier for them in learning how to start?
How much *more* space should we devote to mozilla files?
Will I need the entire codebase just to build a langpack?
Making a test lp won't be as quick as it is now, will it?
There's no worry about losing the already done job, since anybody can
start from an old langpack (or glossary) as a starting point. Maybe it
won't be fully up to date, but UI changes to Seamonkey are reduced to a
bare minimum, and it would be easy to get on par.
As I already said, that's just MHO: YMMV! :)
Cheers, Giacomo.

I somewhat expected arguments pointing in those ways.
Having the lang packs in CVS would make work easier for distributors (I
had some tqalk with Ben Bucksch of Beonex about that topic) and possibly
for other contributors to L10n, as they have the sources available in an
easily readable format (they should be accessible via the LXR web pages).

I don't expect us to need r=/sr= for now, as language packs are not in
the default builds, in a first step we might not even have the
architecture to include them in a build process.
When we don't need any reviews, I don't think we'll be wasting much time
requesting them ;-)
With having things in CVS, it will be much easier though, if we want
some people to QA our work, as they can view the changes we made as
diffs and find mistakes we did there more easily. Reading through the
files on LXR could also be part of the work our internal QA people do
(if an L10n project has some of those).
Our process of creating a language pack will not differ in any way to
what we are doing now, and we don't need a codebase for that. There's
only an addtion to that: After having finished a language pack, we
should unpack the jar files and check them into cvs and eventually add
the right cvs tags to the files (release tags for certain releases etc.)
Not all L10n people have or will have cvs access. I think MLP-staff
people will volunteer to check in files of release packages if you have
no account. I already said I'd volunteer for that, and that is still
what I say now.

I think our work would be more transparent to others, and there would be
additional value as that I described for QA. When the infrastructure is
in place, we would even be ableto allow people building their own
Mozilla from source with a different language than en-US supported.
And satisfying the people who asked me where the source code for my
project is, would be easier as well (though they have essentially the
zipped source avialable in the jars already).
Nobody should be forced to check in their files, but I think it would be
recommended.

I hope to have calmed some fears with that.
We still lack a good directory structure for how to organize the files
in CVS though. I'd be glad if people would add their ideas in that
regard to http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57878

Robert Kaiser

KaiRo - Robert Kaiser wrote:

No r=/sr=  process  is  required or implied.    This process is only use
in the most complicated areas of the code where the possiblity of
regressions is high, and the impact on project productivity is great.  
Where we have people working indendantly there is no need for review.

To add to that training and learning about the CVS is pretty simple for
the most basic functions.  For most people all they will need to learn
are three simple commands once the system is set up.  

    cvs checkout
    cvs update
    cvs commit

more info on CVS is here https://www.cvshome.org/docs/blandy.html

Absolutely.  There are big wins for L10n contributors and for the
project where we can make this happen.

Thanks

Chris Hofmann

KaiRo - Robert Kaiser wrote:

So what was the point in letting me write them down? That wasn't fair...
Guess you only wanted to fire up the discussion... Ok, let's go into
details then.

Well, xpi/jar files are not different from zip ones (for mozilla use,
that is), so it's not mindblogging getting hold of them.
<rant mode>
Talking about distributors, I think we open a can of worms here...

Two examples:
- XXX distributes mozilla with their distro with plenty of mozilla
translations, so I guess they are collecting the translations from
mozilla.org (no sign of .po files for mozilla on their fedora docs
site): still, a few languages they ship are not available on mlp pages;

- YYY has (had?) a complete translation of the whole suite and
documentation (I think they deployed it as WebSphere Browser or
something in a bank here in Italy), going back to 0.9.8 times. They sent
me the help guide translation long ago, even if I never used in my
translations being scared about legal issues (YYY copyright and names
were all over the place).

So we should help distributors, but they are going their own way (at
least, they were), duplicating work and not working *with* the community.
I know this will pi** off many people here since both those companies
contribute so largely to mozilla, but someone needs to say this.
I don't mind if they use/distribute/sell my (only partly mine) work, but
I really hate wasting resources redoing things from scratch: this really
hurts, since companies pay their employees to finish up a task while we
are spending our *own* free (sometimes even not so much free) time...
</rant mode>

Will a "cvs co" pull also all the translations? I guess 1.5GB of space
for a debug build is more than enough. Adding translations will increase
the requirements for build systems, is this acceptable? I have my own
local non debug build (to keep up with changes in the help guide), but
adding many MBs of useless translations (useless since I cannot
understand more than a bunch of german words for example) won't make me
happy. I wonder how developers with 5 or 6 different builds will love
this...

Having no r= scheme will simplify the process, sure, but just postpone
the QA work to a later time, so what is the point? You save on review
time, but QA will take the same (or more) time (later): think about
reverting a widespread word change... More patches for bugzilla, more
hassle for people with cvs rights, more bugs to triage, etc. (I think
you got the point).

Checking those files in the cvs means having them in a local repository.
Different tags will mean different repositories, taking care of
different versions won't be so easy.

Good. If I'd send complete zip files (everything ending .html, .xhtml
and .rdf), will you handle the cvs submission for me? Maybe even a
script will help you doing this for different teams. Would this be
acceptable?

I was approached by a Sun Italy engineer who wanted to build a localized
FB 0.7 for a demo: pointed him to the translation xpi, to the sources
and to some info on mozilla.org. He successfully mastered the process in
less than three working days: not so much pain I guess. Better docs will
lower the time frame without touching the tree.

I think this will be heading to a total mess, with many translations
being out of date or totally abandoned, especially if the Suite is going
to evolve (or dissolve) into a repackaging of FF/TB/whatever else, where
the translations are largely different.

Not a lot, if you had the patience to read until now... ;)

I'll read the bug and add my comments about structure there (if any).
Cheers, Giacomo.

PS. I think I could have used the real companies' names, but I'm sure
everybody understood who I was referring to. I'm grateful to what they
do/have done, but those are clear examples of wasted resources:
something I hate and something I think mozilla.org cannot overlook.

Ok, good, but please read my argument in the other reply to Kairo.
How will bugs/comments/QA be handled? Is it going to put pressure on
bugzilla and the people with cvs rights? What I'm saying is: how will
this impact the already "scarce" moz.org resources in any way?

Ok, that's not a big deal, I agree. But please consider we already have
to master at least these tools:
- MozillaTranslator
- jar/zip
- chmod :)
- generic text editor [one can use only this, but should have a table of
conversion for \uXXXX handy while working]
- UTF8 editor (for .rdf files) [one can use only these, but most of them
are uncomfortable]

Add another one for a newbie: do you really think we will attract more
people?

I can see the benefits for everybody and especially for mozilla.org, I'm
not against them. I just want to raise the attention on some rough
edges, and give another point of view.
Hope I don't seem just another whiner...

I know this issue has been raised before, but have you (as .org) ever
thought about moving the mozilla l10n stuff to more standard tools? .po
files are more common, tools for them are easy to find and constantly
updated, lots of users already have grips on them, and they adapt
beautifully to cvs. I know, this would involve huge changes, but since
other changes are undergoing to locale/content packs...
Cheers, Giacomo.

I suppose I could speak for the French localization team here. We
curently have our own cvs at sourceforge.net, which allow us for example
to build automated "nighlty" xpi packages from the source if we want to
(targeted to the latest stable mozilla version only).

I fear that we wouldn't have the same flexibility on mozilla.org's
server and maintaining both systems synchronized woud probably require a
lot of work. But if l10n packages were built with the tree I assume we
could migrate.

What worries me too is how would the different versions be managed. We
all know that a package built for some version of mozilla will break in
another. I think most localizers aren't familiar at all with cvs tags,
trunk, branch and this kind of stuff.

But localization often happens *after* the release of a product, it
would probably never be on the trunk. At this moment though, I think the
builds from a branch are stopped immediately after a release, how would
you manage that?

--
Geckozone - Aide et infos sur les produits basés sur Mozilla
http://www.geckozone.org/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi

| Something went wrong on my machine and I lost the logs I had of the IRC
| meetings held this week. If any of you have logs, please post them in a
| reply to this post. Thanks.

I'm yama at the irc "Asian" meeting on 11 June. I logged the meeting.
Here is the log:

************ starts here ************

[2004/06/11 10:03] <yama> right. :)
[2004/06/11 10:04] -->| yukichi (~fukuz...@203-165-17-135.home.ne.jp)
has joined #l10n
[2004/06/11 10:04] <Asa> welcome yukichi.
[2004/06/11 10:04] <yukichi> Hello!
[2004/06/11 10:05] <yukichi> I am a staff of Mozilla-gumi
[2004/06/11 10:05] <yukichi> I am glad to meet you
[2004/06/11 10:05] <Asa> and I am happy to meet you, yukichi. I
visited Japan a few years ago and met with people from mozilla-gumi.
[2004/06/11 10:06] <Asa> at the 1.0 event.
[2004/06/11 10:06] <yukichi> I have heard about you by Mozilla-gumi
staffs.
[2004/06/11 10:07] <Asa> My wife and I had a wonderful time in Japan
[2004/06/11 10:07] -->| victoryfox (~vict...@218.228.192.75) has
joined #l10n
[2004/06/11 10:08] <yukichi> Oh! That is good.
[2004/06/11 10:08] <Asa> we visited Tokyo, Kyoto, Takayama, and other
wonderful cities.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <yukichi> I live in Tokyo.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <Asa> yama: where do you live?
[2004/06/11 10:09] <yama> Nagoya.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <Asa> yama: we visited Nagoya too.
[2004/06/11 10:09] <yukichi> wow!
[2004/06/11 10:09] <Asa> :D
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> really?
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> that's great.
[2004/06/11 10:10] <Asa> we went to himeji castle (spelling?)
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> yes,
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yama> it's one of the most beatiful castles in Japan.
[2004/06/11 10:10] <yukichi> I have not been to himeji (spelling O.K.)
[2004/06/11 10:11] <yama> probably one of the largest as well....
[2004/06/11 10:11] <Asa> we also stayed in Hakone and some other small
towns
[2004/06/11 10:11] <yukichi> ah ... today is localization meeting...
[2004/06/11 10:11] <Asa> hello victoryfox
[2004/06/11 10:12] <victoryfox> hello
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> yes, I would like to wait a few more minutes
before localization meeting starts.
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> to allow more people to join.
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> hopefully :)
[2004/06/11 10:12] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:12] <Asa> victoryfox: where are you from?
[2004/06/11 10:14] <yama> victoryfox: is shy ;)
[2004/06/11 10:14] -->| okome (ok...@alma.as.wakwak.ne.jp) has joined
#l10n
[2004/06/11 10:14] |<-- victoryfox has left irc.mozilla.org (Read
error: Connection reset by peer)
[2004/06/11 10:14] <Asa> hello okome
[2004/06/11 10:14] -->| victoryfox_ (~vict...@218.228.192.75) has
joined #l10n
[2004/06/11 10:14] <Asa> welcome back victoryfox_.
[2004/06/11 10:14] <Asa> okome: where are you from?
[2004/06/11 10:15] <okome> hello
[2004/06/11 10:15] <okome> japan
[2004/06/11 10:15] <Asa> we have not started the meeting yet. we are
still waiting on more people to arrive (hopefully)
[2004/06/11 10:15] <yukichi> Yama, victoryfox, okome and I are all
Japanese...
[2004/06/11 10:15] <Asa> okome: ok. I was just telling yama and
yukichi about my trip to Japan. I had a wonderful time there.
[2004/06/11 10:15] =-= victoryfox_ is now known as victoryfox
[2004/06/11 10:15] <yama> anyone from other countries other than japan?
[2004/06/11 10:16] * Asa is from the U.S.
[2004/06/11 10:16] <Asa> KaiRo is from Germany, I believe. He's not
here for the meeting though. He created the channel for us.
[2004/06/11 10:16] <yama> ah! yes I know that :)
[2004/06/11 10:16] <yama> i see.
[2004/06/11 10:16] <victoryfox> is from Osaka
[2004/06/11 10:17] * Asa would like to visit Osaka next time he goes
to Japan.
[2004/06/11 10:17] <KaiRo> Asa: nope, not Germany, actually Austria.
but I'm doing german L10n :)
[2004/06/11 10:17] <yukichi> Asa: I have a question.
[2004/06/11 10:17] <yukichi> I have installed FC2 on Japanese mode.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <Asa> KaiRo: ahh. OK. I'll remember that.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <yukichi> but Mozilla on FC2 is not localized on
Japanese.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <yukichi> why?
[2004/06/11 10:18] * Asa has very little experience on FC2.
[2004/06/11 10:18] <Asa> yukichi: was it localized on FC1 ?
[2004/06/11 10:18] <yukichi> Yes. On FC1 is O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:19] <yukichi> but Mozilla on FC1 is 1.4.1 and on FC2 is 1.6
[2004/06/11 10:19] <Asa> maybe there wasn't a localization available
for that specific release?
[2004/06/11 10:19] <Asa> OK. I'm going to wait just a few more minutes
to see if anyone else shows up. We will start the meeting soon.
[2004/06/11 10:20] <yukichi> No. Japanese localized Moizlla 1.6 is
avarable
[2004/06/11 10:20] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> I was hoping some of the Chinese localizers
would be here.
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> yukichi: maybe it wasn't available when FC2
was made?
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> or maybe they just forgot :)
[2004/06/11 10:20] <Asa> file a bug on them :)
[2004/06/11 10:21] <yukichi> No. FC2 was releaced on 18 May.
[2004/06/11 10:21] <Asa> it might have been "frozen" before that. I do
not know why they would not have Mozilla localized.
[2004/06/11 10:21] <yukichi> But Japanese localised Mozilla 1.6 was
releaced on May ...1 - 10?
[2004/06/11 10:21] <yukichi> nnn I understand
[2004/06/11 10:22] <Asa> I suggest someone file a bug  at
bugzilla.redhat.com
[2004/06/11 10:22] <yukichi> Will Mozilla Foundation talk to Linux
Distoributers?
[2004/06/11 10:23] <yukichi> (poor English?)
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> OK. A good time to start the meeting?
[2004/06/11 10:23] <victoryfox> Distributers
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> yukichi: I have contacts at Red Hat. I can
ask them.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> I may also have Mozilla package contact at
Debian and I can ask them.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <yama> yep. we are ready.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <yukichi> Oh. please contact to Fedora Core staffs.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> I can try.
[2004/06/11 10:23] <Asa> OK. Let us begin.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <yukichi> O.K.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <Asa> The primary topic I planned was to see who
was ready for the 1.7 release.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <Asa> We're planning on releasing on Tuesday of
next week.
[2004/06/11 10:24] <Asa> I'll update the schedule at
http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html after the meeting
[2004/06/11 10:25] <victoryfox> June.15
[2004/06/11 10:25] <Asa> we will need completed language packs by June
16.
[2004/06/11 10:25] <Asa> after tomorrow we will take no more changes
(we hope).
[2004/06/11 10:25] <Asa> so tomorrow's build is good to test the
language packs with.
[2004/06/11 10:26] <Asa> the late string changes are listed in these
bugs
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?bug_id=,57089,224318,234741,2...
[2004/06/11 10:26] <Asa> those are all of the changes to localizable
strings that happened since Beta.
[2004/06/11 10:27] <Asa> we tried hard not to take many changes after
beta, but we failed :(
[2004/06/11 10:27] <Asa> we will try harder for 1.8 :)
[2004/06/11 10:27] <yama> i see.
[2004/06/11 10:28] <yukichi> i see too
[2004/06/11 10:28] <Asa>
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=241469 and
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=236060 are the only two
recent changes.
[2004/06/11 10:28] <thebot> Asa: Bug 241469 maj, --, ---,
p...@us.ibm.com, REOP, Help interface not keyboard accessible
[2004/06/11 10:28] <KaiRo> Asa: are any of those changes after RC3?
[2004/06/11 10:28] <thebot> Asa: Bug 236060 tri, --, ---,
stefa...@hem.utfors.se, VERI FIXED, Shouldn't refer to "Mozilla menu
on Mac" OS X in "System" section
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> i expect windows build will be fine by 16
June, BUT
[2004/06/11 10:29] <Asa> KaiRo: I don't think so.
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> i don't know if we make OS X version by that
tiem.
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> as far as Japanese localizations go.
[2004/06/11 10:29] <Asa> KaiRo: I believe that we may have taken one
change for the documentation but most people don't localize the help
documentation, right?
[2004/06/11 10:29] <yama> we do :)
[2004/06/11 10:29] <Asa> yama: OK.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <KaiRo> Asa: if they aren't, then any RC3 language
packs should theoretically be fully compatible with final...
[2004/06/11 10:30] <Asa> OK. then look over those bugs carefully and
note any changes. I'll look too.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <Asa> I should look quickly.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <Asa> I'll check now.
[2004/06/11 10:30] <KaiRo> Asa: yes, I think help is quite rarely
translated. (and it's only partly in German builds)
[2004/06/11 10:31] <yama> about help contents
[2004/06/11 10:31] <Asa>
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=242979 chanced since rc3,
I thinkg.
[2004/06/11 10:31] <thebot> Asa: Bug 242979 tri, --, ---,
neil.parkwaycc.co...@myrealbox.com, RESO FIXED, File -> Upload File
needs an access key
[2004/06/11 10:32] <Asa> I am wrong. that was May 10, not June 10
[2004/06/11 10:32] <Asa> sorry.
[2004/06/11 10:32] <KaiRo> ok, sounds good
[2004/06/11 10:33] <Asa>
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=241469 might have landed
after rc3. I'm checking
[2004/06/11 10:33] <thebot> Asa: Bug 241469 maj, --, ---,
p...@us.ibm.com, REOP, Help interface not keyboard accessible
[2004/06/11 10:34] <Asa> no. it was checked in before RC3
[2004/06/11 10:34] <yukichi> o.k.
[2004/06/11 10:34] <Asa> so it looks like no l10n changes after RC3.
[2004/06/11 10:34] <Asa> So RC3 language packs should work with 1.7 Final.
[2004/06/11 10:35] <yama> as for RC3
[2004/06/11 10:35] <yama> windows build is available right now
[2004/06/11 10:36] <Asa> OK.
[2004/06/11 10:36] <yama> Mac, linux and free bsd are currently under
development.
[2004/06/11 10:36] <Asa> the second thing I wanted to ask about is
what you all think belongs in a language pack.
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> some people want to change lots of things
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> but we will need to decide what is allowed to
be changed.
[2004/06/11 10:37] <yama> for example?
[2004/06/11 10:37] <Asa> for example, ...

read more »

I don't think we should change the SeaMonkey module that it pulled
currently, as this would really mess up. Default builds/pulls shouldn't
be any different from now. How we add the possibility to include some
L10n in a custom build should be discussed after having some files
there. We could possibly make it possible to just pull the wanted
locale(s) in this case.

I don't really get your point:
The process is not different than now - You already have (or have not)
some QA happening afterwards now, I believe. And how you deal with that
isn't influenced by having the files available in CVS in addtion to what
you're doing now.

Why do you need a local repository for that? I don't understand what you
want to tell...

Absolutely.

That's not different to what we already have now, I believe.

Thanks. (We still have some open issues with my proposal there)

Robert Kaiser

I guess it would also be possible to only update the mozilla.org tree
with your final packages. But as you're a unique case here, I think
we'll be able to find a good solution together.
As you have some experience with managing locale resources in a cvs
tree, could you add some comment to my proposal in the bug report I
mentioned? I'm still unsure about a few lose ends in that proposal.

True. I'm not completely sure yet how to deal with trunk vs. branches /
release tags in those cases where we only have files for final releases.
But I'm sure we figure out a way we can go...

Regular builds (nightlies) might not happen there, but I don't think
we'll have L10n included in those. and if we have to build our own
builds or something similar, I don't see any problem here (provided we
set the branch/release tags correctly).

Robert Kaiser

If you want to translate mozilla using po files, you can ...
See http://translate.sourceforge.net/ and ask here or on the
translate-devel list if you need help...
They are not native to mozilla but you can use them to manage all your
translations and the conversion to/from .dtd and .properties files is
fairly simple (and getting simpler)

David

I don't think I've expressed myself correctly.
It's not that I *want* to use po files, I was just hinting that adding
more and more tools for a non-standard way of localizing software, will
probably end up in scaring away new possible contributors. Switching to
more common tools (which, btw, better suit the proposed integration in
the cvs), would be painfull at start, but may have a longer term reward.
Sorry I wasn't clear.
Cheers, Giacomo.

KaiRo - Robert Kaiser wrote:

Good.

Now Qa contacts send me their corrected files or annotations, which I
integrate: will they be forced to use cvs in the future to submit
changes (which I or somebody else will have to check-in)?

Sorry for not being clear. I imagine having a few pulls of the
translation (at least one for stable and the other for trunk) to use a
base for diffs: now, I was fearing of having full development trees just
to do that. A total waste of hd space (since I don't do C++ :) )...

Deal.

Maybe you're right there: at least it would be simplier to resume work
starting from what have been checked into the tree(if any).
Cheers, Giacomo.

They won't be forced to do anything. They and you decide how to use or
not use that all. It's the same for deciding who is checking in changes
if you do use the CVS repository.

CVS is able to only pull a bunch of files or a certain directory. You
don't have to have zillions of files lying around that you don't use
actively.

I'm quite sure of that.

Robert Kaiser

Just remember that *common* tools, is not just linux tools. They must
fit (read: work well, not just barely runable) with Windows and mac as
well..

@ Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:08:46 +0200, Henrik Lynggaard:

Yes, it does - .po files aren't a Linux-only resource.

--
Caio Begotti

application_pgp-signature_part < 1K Download