Proposed League
Francisco Torres and Amy Springer
I
recently re-found Netrek and have been "meeting" many of you online.
I noticed that there is a desire to grow the community back to what it
was in the 90s with leagues and full games. However, there also seems
to be an expectation that players "know" what to do -- be "clued". I
would like to suggest a compromise: Regularly scheduled games. Note
that I didn't use clued or pickup games. Essentially I am suggesting
the start of a learning league.
The league can be used to
"grow/foster" talent. After some milestones are met in the league, an
invitation only all-star tournament is held which can then lead to the
creation of an advanced league (the old clue games).
As the advanced players develop, maybe some of them return to the
regular league as mentors/captains to begin the cycle again.
I am not a computer gamer by nature. However, I have been fascinated by Netrek and Doom since ~1990. I think the reason for that fascination is the online competition and the need to play as a team to succeed. I realize that one can accomplish much in both gamesindividually,
but I don't think it is as fun or satisfying. From the messages that I
read, I suspect that some of you also want to have those full games
with lots of people playing -- as a team.
Now for the hard
part. The first step is to have people sign up to see what the
interest level is. I suggest that the mailing list and/or the web page
can be used to have people sign up.
Signing up will request:
Name
Email address
Time zone and General availabilities
Estimated experience level (Newcomer/Comfortable/Expert)
---> Newcomer: I just found the game and am really learning.
---> Comfortable: Knows enough to be dangerous (to both sides simultaneously :-)
---> Expert: Knows enough to be dangerous to the opposite team.
Present Netrek handles
---> Name / Rank
Interested in being a "leader"? [Yes or No]
I don't know how many people are playing Netrek regularly -- but I think that I have seen enough names to fill out at least 3 teams of 8.
I
am hopeful that there are more and that they are interested/willing to
participate. However, I think that 8 on 8 ought to be the goal and if
there is more interest we can crate more teams.
Now for the
controversial part -- team leaders. Obviously this can lead to the
most contention but we need a starting point. I have seen many players
with "rank" over the past few months, but haven't spoken with all of
you so I hope you are NOT offended if I didn't "nominate" you. (This
message is a free-form brain dump at 6:00 am and I am NOT a morning
person). I also have not quite figured out whether the "trash talking
animosities" are real or not -- but I don't think it should matter.
That said the following names I see regularly (on this list):
JRD
Yoda
tsueg larimda
ASSUMING
that nobody's had a heart attach yet and those guys are willing to be
leaders, they will "draft fair teams". Note that the "team leader's
assessment of a players experience level may differ from the player's
assessment". So I am hopeful that the leaders will be patient and
fair. I hope that they can communicate expectations of roles to
players to win but also allow players to grow -- so leaders will need
to be patient.
More controversy: League/Game FORMAT
I
propose a mini-series format for games. Say best of 3 series where
each game is 30 minutes. Game winner is determined by total # of
planets taken at the end of each game. Series winner is the winner of
most games of the series.
QUESTION: Is there any interest in
playing a rotation of the various servers/configurations? Or is that
just in the "too hard" category for now? If not, that could eventually
add to the league (almost like a home vs away) where some teams have a
home style (bronco, chaos, paradise, etc) with the additional quirks
each style has it can be interesting.
Depending on interest
level I suggest games be held once a week. Fri or Sat? 8 to 10 EST? 9
to 11 EST? other? It would be cool, if teams can setup a regular
practice time that other players can open scrimmage against.
Even more controversy -- Server Admins:
IF
there is enough interest for FULL games, there should be a "NEW League
player database" that is only active during the league games? Everyone
starts from scratch in terms of rank at the beginning of the league.
Stats at the end of the league are then used for the selection of the
"all-stars", etc. Note that stats alone may not get you into the
all-stars. It may be an expectation that you play as a team and team
leaders will have some say in that selection. However, I realize
personalities will sometimes clash so a "rank" at the end of the season
of TBD will provide an autobid to the all-stars. BUT there needs to be
some tweaks to the existing rank system. For one, Rank achieved in a
single game/series is only temporary. A scale of comprehensive series
play will need to be developed to earn "league rank". That is TBD.
League rank of TBD at the end of the season generates the all-star
autobid.
I have gotten the impression that the server code
allows for the team leader to approve players login in to his/her
team. If that is the case, that should be enabled. Players not on the
roster for a team can request to fill any open slots on the team, but
it is up to the team lead to approve their entry. This will allow for
the team to make arrangements for players that either are missing or
have to leaver early (hopefully players can commit for their full
timeslots but stuff happens).
Future Potential programming challenges [ for those so inclined and interested in the Netrek Server/Client development]:
Creation of a team practice mode as a teaching tool.
What I envision here is a mode where the team leader can create
select offensive/defensive environments to have the team practice with
either bots or scrimmage with others. Generate scenarios as to
how much of the galaxy they control. This can be used to simulate
offense or defense tactics of specific scenarios such as: LPS
whether or not the AGRIs have been taken and/or lost
% of the galaxy controlled
Open
scrimmage mode: Allows for the team to login to the same side but all
other players are directed to the other team. Empty slots are computer
controlled. This can be done via a team password?
Also, can
the player database during scheduled games be different than during
non-scheduled games? Should the server ports be modified for games such
that newplayers who may wonder onto the netrek servers during a game
are presented with a view option while being told that a league game is
in process? Yet if a team is short handed, allow the team lead to
allow them to join his team? I thinkt this could also be accomplished
via a password. And I suspect some of these things may already be in
place from the "clue" games -- but I do not know for sure.
Well, I think I have rambled enough for one morning. I am interested in your thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Francisco -- aka ClownTrooperDad
: I think that many of you respect his skill so I would like to
nominate him to be a lead and provide inputs for selecting other leads.
Karthik Arumugham
We need people to play more, recruit more new players, etc, before we
can even think about forming a league.
Not to belittle the rest of your message, but teams tend to either
build up on their own, or we create them draft-style. We have done
this successfully in the past, and a general call for people to
provide you with specific information that isn't of much use is,
well...not useful.
I'd end here, but I'm bored enough to comment more, and keep in mind
the caveat that a league is NOT viable currently.
> The league can be used to
> "grow/foster" talent. After some milestones are met in the league, an
> invitation only all-star tournament is held which can then lead to the
> creation of an advanced league (the old clue games).
> As the advanced players develop, maybe some of them return to the
> regular league as mentors/captains to begin the cycle again.
Where do these players come from such that we have a league large
enough to contain "all-star" players?
> Signing up will request:
> Name
> Email address
> Time zone and General availabilities
Do you really expect people to provide you with this somewhat personal
information, not being a known entity in the Netrek community? I'm not
saying that I think you mean any malice by it, but it's not how one
goes about setting up a league without being part of the "community"
at the very least.
> That said the following names I see regularly (on this list):
Pointless. There are plenty of people who can be captains, many of
those who want to, some who can be coaxed into doing so, etc. If you
do not know the playerbase enough other than to list what's seemingly
just the 3 people who play the most hours, then you do not have enough
information to try to have "captains" and form "teams."
> I propose a mini-series format for games. Say best of 3 series where
> each game is 30 minutes. Game winner is determined by total # of
> planets taken at the end of each game. Series winner is the winner of
> most games of the series.
We've tried experimental games like this. Some of them are
interesting, some not. But it's pointless to discuss them when we are
not going to get enough people to play them at the moment.
> QUESTION: Is there any interest in
> playing a rotation of the various servers/configurations? Or is that
> just in the "too hard" category for now? If not, that could
> eventually
> add to the league (almost like a home vs away) where some teams have a
> home style (bronco, chaos, paradise, etc) with the additional quirks
> each style has it can be interesting.
No. There is no interest in playing anything other than Bronco. The
"regular" players who play chaos are not the type who play well on
teams, in general. And Bronco players generally do not want to play
another style (other than hockey, but that's another matter entirely.)
> Depending on interest
> level I suggest games be held once a week. Fri or Sat? 8 to 10 EST? 9
> to 11 EST? other? It would be cool, if teams can setup a regular
> practice time that other players can open scrimmage against.
Many people tend to have social obligations on Friday and Saturday
nights that often do not include playing computer games. Those are the
worst possible nights to pick. Tue/Wed/Thu seem to work the best.
We've had Sunday afternoon games in the past in order to try to get
more EU players, due to the time difference.
> Even more controversy -- Server Admins:
>
> IF
> there is enough interest for FULL games, there should be a "NEW
> League
> player database" that is only active during the league games?
> Everyone
> starts from scratch in terms of rank at the beginning of the league.
> Stats at the end of the league are then used for the selection of the
> "all-stars", etc. Note that stats alone may not get you into the
> all-stars. It may be an expectation that you play as a team and team
> leaders will have some say in that selection. However, I realize
> personalities will sometimes clash so a "rank" at the end of the
> season
> of TBD will provide an autobid to the all-stars. BUT there needs to
> be
> some tweaks to the existing rank system. For one, Rank achieved in a
> single game/series is only temporary. A scale of comprehensive series
> play will need to be developed to earn "league rank". That is TBD.
> League rank of TBD at the end of the season generates the all-star
> autobid.
Why is this a controversy? Why do we need a "NEW LEAGUE DATABASE"?
Games are games. People are happy to play on the existing servers as
is, if we CAN get enough people for a clue game. Since you're
apparently not aware, currently clue games generate separate stats per
game. See http://stats.psychosis.net/ for all the "recent" games (last
one almost a year ago unfortunately.)
I don't know why you continue to speak of "all-stars" when we don't
have enough players to fill a clue game. If you weren't aware, we had
weekly clue games until about a year ago, then we went bi-weekly, now
it's been months since the last one.
> I have gotten the impression that the server code
> allows for the team leader to approve players login in to his/her
> team. If that is the case, that should be enabled. Players not on
> the
> roster for a team can request to fill any open slots on the team, but
> it is up to the team lead to approve their entry. This will allow for
> the team to make arrangements for players that either are missing or
> have to leaver early (hopefully players can commit for their full
> timeslots but stuff happens).
This is minutiae that is doing nothing but making people stop reading
your email even sooner, I'm sorry to say.
> Future Potential programming challenges [ for those so inclined and
> interested in the Netrek Server/Client development]:
Please participate in the community as far as programming goes, before
you somehow magically conjure up developers. We're a fairly open
community and welcome contributions and collaboration from all.
> Also, can
> the player database during scheduled games be different than during
> non-scheduled games?
Not going to bother. If you do not know enough about how Netrek works
to ask this, you really shouldn't be trying to start a league that can
not presently exist.
The best you can do now is play more, and try to get other people to
play. Talk to the people who play semi-regularly, get to know them.
Try to personally talk to these people and see if they are up for
playing a world vs world game. That's the first step. Your entire
premise is moot if you cannot get a 8v8 world game going.
I know you mean the best here by all this rambling, but honestly, it's
not very constructive. Again, I invite you to join the developer
community, and the Netrek community as large. You seem to be an
"unknown" player, thus even just getting world games going will not
happen until you "establish" yourself in the community as a regular.
- Karthik
Bill
> JRD
> Yoda
> tsueg larimda
>
> ASSUMING
> that nobody's had a heart attach yet and those guys are willing to be
> leaders, they will "draft fair teams".
Bill
Steven
11:11
Niclas Fredriksson
> [stuff]
I applaud you for making this suggestion. Obviously you have given it some
thought and you took the time to write that really long email. However,
there are some things that will be very difficult.
The biggest problem with your idea is that it's not very likely that we
can form three full teams with players that can play at the same time on a
regular basis. When playing you have eight players on each side, but a
team actually consists of more players than that (since it's hard to
always get a 100% turn out). I'd say the minimum would be 12 players per
team, and a three team league would therefore require 36 active players
that can play games on a regular basis. We used to have a weekly clue game
where anyone could come and play but that died out over a year ago when we
no longer could get 16 players.
The second biggest problem with your idea, the way I see it, is that the
clue level of the current (very small) player base is very varied. There
are probably less than five very skilled players playing these days and
if, for instance, only one side has one of these very skilled players,
then the game would be unbalanced. This could of course be fixed by having
the best players take it easy and for instance only sitting at one planet
on the side of the front or something, but that's not a lot of fun for
anyone.
Still, it's great that you have put some thought into this and that you're
coming up with suggestions on how we can bring netrek back. I just don't
think this particular idea of yours will work at this point. You can
always prove me and the other people that have commented on your ideas
wrong by polling newbies on the servers and making a list of people that
are willing to attend the league and play regular games at pre-scheduled
times. I don't think most of the newbies and sadly currently active
players read the messages posted in this group so you are better off not
discussing it here until you have something to put forth besides your
ideas (which have already been tested before).
--
Niclas
tvel
As I see it, for now we just have to get people to play some day of
the week. We have to teach new players how to play, because netrek is
a hard game by today's standarts.
A full netrek server is always fun and people will like it :).
Zachary Uram
Hi tvel,
I agree. We need a full server with wait queue for say a month and
then we can resume weekly clue pickup games and if that is successful
for a few months then start a draft league.
Zach