Rookie of the year
ri...@ucla-cs.uucp
A couple of weeks ago Sports Illustrated ran a story on Warren Young
of the Pittsburgh Penguins, a 29 year old rookie in the NHL. There has
been some talk about the Calder trophie (Rookie of the Year) that has
mentioned Young, and Carrie Wilson (28 years old) of Calgary. But as
I recall there was a big flap a few years ago when Peter Stastny won
the Calder. Some owners (Ballard, maybe?) and general managers, and
fans thought that it was unfair for some 24 or 25 year old European
to come to North America and beat out all the teenaged Canadians (and
Americans now, I guess) for the Rookie honors. There was some talk about
putting an upper limit on the age of the Calder winner. I thought that
that had been passed but I assume from the Young and Wilson talk that
it never was. Does anyone *know*?
--
Rick Gillespie
rick@ucla-cs
...!{cepu|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!rick
"She turned me into a newt! . . . I got better."
cjsgro
I haven't heard if there's an age limit but I STRONGLY suspect that the
fact that I haven't (and that various sports people around here are
saying that Young is a strong candidate for the Calder) is a good
indication.
--
Carlo Sgro
...{ihnp4||allegra}!watmath!watrose!cjsgro
"I told you not to do that!"
Jeff Richardson
read something like this:
"To be eligible for the Calder Trophy, a player must not have played more
than 25 games in any one previous season or more than six games in each of
any two previous seasons in the NHL or any other major professional league."
The controversy surrounding Stastny's winning of the award was the "any
other major professional league" part. If you recall, the year before
Stastny won the award was Wayne Gretzky's first year in the NHL, but he
didn't win the Calder Trophy. Gretzky played one year in the World Hockey
Association, which was considered a major professional league for the
purposes of Calder Trophy eligibility, so Gretzky and others like Michel
Goulet, Craig Hartsburg, Rick Vaive and Rob Ramage never had a chance to
win the Calder Trophy, even though they were all still of junior age when
they joined the NHL. (I wish I could remember who did win the Calder that
year.) There was a lot of furor about it, and the situation was
amplified by Stastny's winning of the award, because Stastny had played
several years in the Czechoslovak first division and had also played for
their national team. Even though it was major league experience, it was
not considered "professional," so Stastny was eligible. This seems unfair
and hypocritical because NHL people have been saying for years that the
Czech and Russian players are just as professional as the NHL'ers,
and many of the NHL governors refused to acknowledge that the WHA was a
major league until after it folded. Incidentally, the International Olympic
Committee ruled last year that the WHA was not professional enough to
disqualify its former players from olympic play, thereby putting it roughly
on par with the Czech first division and putting both of them below the NHL.
Anyway, the bottom line is that I don't remember the rule being changed since
then, but if there has been a change, it most likely would have been the
removal or redefinition of the word "professional." The leagues that Warren
Young and Carey Wilson played in are not considered "major," so they are
still eligible. They won't win it though. It's going to go to Chris Chelios.
--
Jeff Richardson, DCIEM, Toronto (416) 635-2073
{linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd}!utcsrgv!dciem!jeff
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!dciem!jeff
Tom Haapanen [DCS]
>Anyway, the bottom line is that I don't remember the rule being changed since
>then, but if there has been a change, it most likely would have been the
>removal or redefinition of the word "professional." The leagues that Warren
>Young and Carey Wilson played in are not considered "major," so they are
>still eligible. They won't win it though. It's going to go to Chris Chelios.
Here's my vote for Chelios, too. Although here, too, I think we're
bordering on the limits of eligibility. Chelios played (I think)
about eight regular-season games last year, as well as the full
playoffs, a total of almost 25 games. He's damn good, but is he a
rookie?
\tom
watmath!watdcsu!haapanen
Jeff Richardson
> about eight regular-season games last year, as well as the full
> playoffs, a total of almost 25 games. He's damn good, but is he a
> rookie?
Chelios IS eligible for the Calder Trophy. I neglected to mention in my
original posting that the 25 games in one season (or 6 in each of two seasons)
required to make a player ineligible for the Calder must be regular season
games. Playoff games don't count. I'm not sure whether his combined
regular-season and playoff total was more than 25 games, but Ken Dryden was
able to win the Conn Smythe Trophy for the 1971 playoffs, and then take the
Calder the following year because he played fewer than 25 games in the 70-71
regular season. He's the only player ever to win the Calder after having
already won another NHL trophy.
This may seem unreasonable, since the playoff experience Dryden and Chelios
got is probably worth at least a full regular season, but it makes sense if you
consider that the Calder Trophy is supposed to be awarded based solely on the
player's performance in the regular season. However, I don't think the voting
is done until after the playoffs, so I find it hard to believe that if a player
has a good playoff, it won't influence the voting (same goes for the other
trophies that require voting, especially the Selke because there aren't any real
stats to go on for best defensive forward). With each team playing most other
teams only three times during the regular season, the writers who do the voting
don't have much to go on unless they see the players in the playoffs.
Tom Haapanen [DCS]
>> Chelios played (I think)
>> about eight regular-season games last year, as well as the full
>> playoffs, a total of almost 25 games. He's damn good, but is he a
>> rookie?
> Chelios IS eligible for the Calder Trophy. I neglected to mention in my
> original posting that the 25 games in one season (or 6 in each of two seasons)
> required to make a player ineligible for the Calder must be regular season
> games. Playoff games don't count. I'm not sure whether his combined
> regular-season and playoff total was more than 25 games, but Ken Dryden was
> able to win the Conn Smythe Trophy for the 1971 playoffs, and then take the
> Calder the following year because he played fewer than 25 games in the 70-71
> regular season. He's the only player ever to win the Calder after having
> already won another NHL trophy.
Actually, I did realize that Chelios is eligible for the trophy (I
endorsed him for it) in my posting. What I was questioning is whether
he *should* be classified as a rookie. 25 games, plus maybe another
25 for the playoffs, and you're still a rookie (not Chelios, but a
hypothetical player...)? I really think that's a bit excessive.
Maybe at least the playoff games should be counted, too. What do you
people out there think?
\tom
watmath!watdcsu!haapanen
Paul Benjamin
is Lemieux. He is second in goals among rookies (first is Young),
first in assists among rookies, and first in shooting percentage
anong rookies. Also, nobody doubts what he has already meant to
his team. They were 0-6-1 when he was injured, and are nearly .500
with him in the lineup. When Young was asked why he was doing so
well, after having been ignored for so many years, he replied that
it was because he was fortunate to have been placed on the same
line with Lemieux. The coach had placed Young together with Lemieux
early on, but had then removed him from the line. Lemieux asked
that Young be returned to his line, and the result has been great
for both. To draw a parallel, nobody denies that Jarri Kuri is
a fine player, but his goal totals are so high because he is on
the same line with the greatest assister in history.
Paul Benjamin
"I love the game of hockey - I just wish the NHL would play it!"
J.ROSENBLUTH
> other major professional league" part. If you recall, the year before
> Stastny won the award was Wayne Gretzky's first year in the NHL, but he
> didn't win the Calder Trophy. Gretzky played one year in the World Hockey
> Association, which was considered a major professional league for the
> purposes of Calder Trophy eligibility, so Gretzky and others like Michel
> Goulet, Craig Hartsburg, Rick Vaive and Rob Ramage never had a chance to
> win the Calder Trophy, even though they were all still of junior age when
> they joined the NHL. (I wish I could remember who did win the Calder that
> year.) There was a lot of furor about it, and the situation was
To the best of my recollection,
Ray Borque won the Calder that year (1979-80).
Mike Foligno finished second in the voting.
Josh Rosenbluth (...!houxm!houem!jhr2)
Jeff Richardson
> endorsed him for it) in my posting. What I was questioning is whether
> he *should* be classified as a rookie. 25 games, plus maybe another
> 25 for the playoffs, and you're still a rookie (not Chelios, but a
> hypothetical player...)? I really think that's a bit excessive.
> Maybe at least the playoff games should be counted, too. What do you
> people out there think?
>
I think that regardless of where he played before, each and every NHL player
player should be eligible for the Calder Trophy once during his career,
(I think the NHL agrees with me, but they just made an exception for the
WHA players because they wanted to get back at them for signing with the
other league), so the issue here seems to be: Where do we draw the line
and say that a player is no longer a rookie, in such a way as to be
fair to him by giving him a reasonable chance to win the award, and to be
fair to the other rookies by not putting them up against someone with signif-
icantly more experience? The NHL has drawn the line at 25 regular season
games. As Tom said, it's silly not to count playoff games, because they are
certainly valid NHL experience. (In the six-team days when the rule was
made, it was impossible to play more than 14 playoff games in a season,
so they didn't really have to worry about this problem.) However, since I think
that each player should be eligible once, to make a player who gets into only
8 regular season games and then plays 20 playoff games ineligible the following
year makes his rookie season only 8 games long, since playoff performances
aren't supposed to count in the Calder voting, effectively giving him
no chance of ever winning the award. If playoff performances counted in
the Calder voting, it would give a big unfair advantage to the rookies from
teams that won at least two playoff series, because the voters would see them
a lot more than the other players. 25 or 30 games is not much experience
even if some of it is in the playoffs. Consistency over an entire season is
a totally different story, so my proposal to the NHL board of governors is:
Change the maximum number of games Calder candidates are allowed in a previous
season from "25 regular season games" to "40 regular season or playoff games",
but continue to award the trophy based only on regular season performances.
This would make Chelios eligible this year, as I think he should be, but
would make Tom's hypothetical player with 25 regular season plus 25 playoff
games ineligible the following year.
Dave Brown
I'd have to go with him. It's a shame that he didn't make it to
the All-Star game. Even with Mario winning the MVP, he's going to
be in more All-Star games than Mr.Young.
ri...@ucla-cs.uucp
>
>Here's my vote for Chelios, too. Although here, too, I think we're
>bordering on the limits of eligibility. Chelios played (I think)
>about eight regular-season games last year, as well as the full
>playoffs, a total of almost 25 games. He's damn good, but is he a
>rookie?
>
games the previous year. There are also rules for so-many-total-games in a
number of previous seasons. Playoff experience doesn't count. Thus Ken Dryden
was able to be the Rookie of the Year the year *after* he was voted the Most
Valuable Player in the playoffs (grrrrr, Chicago should have won the Cup).
Anyway, it is tough to say exactly what constitutes a rookie these days. With
international play becoming so much more important, players are coming into
the NHL with lots of experience. For example, Par Lafontaine and Pat Flatley
were, arguably, the best players on their countrys' Olympic teams (*lots* of
exposure and ice time). They then joined the Islanders late in the season
(with about 15 games to go) and were major contributors in the playoffs. But
both are considered rookies this year.
As for who will win this year - Chelios hasn't a chance. Being MVP of the
All-Star game will lock it up for Mario Lemieux. So much for my pre-season
prediction of Pat Lafontaine (we Islander fans are die-hards).
l...@ucla-cs.uucp
> >Here's my vote for Chelios, too. Although here, too, I think we're
> >bordering on the limits of eligibility. Chelios played (I think)
> >about eight regular-season games last year, as well as the full
> >playoffs, a total of almost 25 games. He's damn good, but is he a
> >rookie?
> >
>
> All-Star game will lock it up for Mario Lemieux. So much for my pre-season
> prediction of Pat Lafontaine (we Islander fans are die-hards).
Rick, you are damn right! I can't agree with you more. How can
a defensive defenseman like Chelios (5 goals, 44 points)
get the Rookie of the year award with the presence of Lemieux
(24 goals, 63 points).
It is well known that the writers in NHL always vote for scorers
(except Rod Langway for the Norris).
If you are not in the class of Tom Barrasso, Ray Bourque, or
Denis Potvin
as a defensive player, you won't get the Calder.
Besides, Lemieux gets all the publicity this year.
--
Eddy Lor
...!ucbvax!ucla-cs!lor
l...@ucla-locus.arpa
Jeff Richardson
THE FIRST ANNUAL NET.SPORT.HOCKEY NHL TROPHY AND ALL-STAR POLL
All you have to do is send me (by electronic mail, please don't post) your
answers to the following questions:
1. If you were on the committee that determines the NHL trophy winners,
for whom would you vote for each of the following trophies:
a. HART (for the player most valuable to his team)
b. LADY BYNG (for the player who best combines sportsmanship and
gentlemanly conduct with a high standard of playing ability)
c. JAMES NORRIS (for the top defenseman)
d. VEZINA (for the top goaltender)
e. CALDER (for the rookie of the year)
f. SELKE (for the top defensive forward)
2. If you were on the committee that determines the NHL all-stars, for whom
would you vote for first and second all-star at each position (i.e., who are
the top four defensemen and the top two players at each other position.)
If you don't want to or can't vote for all of the above, just send me whatever
you can come up with. I'll tabulate the results and post them the week of
March 18.
Tom Haapanen [DCS]
>> As for who will win this year - Chelios hasn't a chance. Being MVP of the
>> All-Star game will lock it up for Mario Lemieux. So much for my pre-season
>> prediction of Pat Lafontaine (we Islander fans are die-hards).
>Rick, you are damn right! I can't agree with you more. How can
>a defensive defenseman like Chelios (5 goals, 44 points)
>get the Rookie of the year award with the presence of Lemieux
>(24 goals, 63 points).
>It is well known that the writers in NHL always vote for scorers
>(except Rod Langway for the Norris). If you are not in the class
>of Tom Barrasso, Ray Bourque, or Denis Potvin as a defensive player,
>you won't get the Calder. Besides, Lemieux gets all the publicity this year.
Hey, guys! 44 points for a defenceman? 63 for a much-hyped forward?
I don't think that alone is going to give Lemieux the trophy. No way.
And I do think that Chelios is right up there with Barrasso, Bourque
and Potvin --- he was voted to the first team for the All-Star game,
wasn't he (or was it second team? I don't think so, but... )
Lemieux' publicity hasn't been all that positive after the season
started; he hasn't quite performed up to everybody's expectations.
I still stand by Chelios as my choice.
\tom haapanen
watmath!watdcsu!haapanen
Don't cry, don't do anything
No lies, back in the government
No tears, party time is here again
President Gas is up for president (c) Psychedelic Furs, 1982
omni...@gmail.com
(Also wow, 29 years necropost... that must be a world record)
omgmaxisr...@gmail.com
> Mario Lemieux was one of my favorite players. I wish he didn't have so much health issues during his carreer. I can't imagine how much better he would have gotten.
>
> (Also wow, 29 years necropost... that must be a world record)
