This response is a bit tongue in cheek, but I figure I've got the right as
a member of the 29/7 club.

My current opinion is that 25 is not old enough, 29 is not enough, 35 is
probably not even old enough.  On the other hand any time is a good time
to get married if you can accept the fact that it might not last forever.

Chuqui mentioned in his "A Seasonal Note" posting several weeks ago the guilt
(or mixed emotions) he felt regarding the ending of his marriage.  The problem
seems to be that committment "till death do us part".  I personally don't like
to fail, but when I don't live up to my word I tend to feel a failure.

Solutions?

(I guess this wasn't so tongue in cheek after all)

Peter Barbee

decvax-+-uw-beaver-+
ihnp4--+   allegra-+
ucbvax----lbl-csam-+--fluke!tron
               sun-+
           ssc-vax-+
:

{Note: these are replies to several articles Jeff has posted in the
last few days}

    >>-- the idea that any lack of knowledge or understanding is a sin deserving
    >>painful punishment.

Jeff, do you think that people are *born* with perfect knowledge and
understanding of people, anymore than someone is born with the perfect
understanding of cdc mace?  Understanding people is a skill that has
to be learned, just as any other skill has to be learned. You can't
begin to learn about people (or a person) by cringing in a corner,
you have to get out and interact.

Attraction is complementary, as well as contiguous.  People look for
aspects that they like in a person, besides aspects they would like
to have.  That's normal-- and legitimate.  Once you get away from
the symbolization of these women, you might find that they may see
some qualities in you, also.

Well, Jeff, relationships do have their healing aspects. A good SO
can go a long way in soothing those hurts and wounds.  But you have
to be ready to do some healing yourself. We *all* have out little
nicks and scrapes.

Jeff, if I decided to make a blanket assumption on men based on some
of the bozos I've had the poor fortune to have known, I wouldn't be
where I am today.  Which is very, very happy.  I don't think that
anyone can go through life without being massively stomped on at
least once in their life.  In fact, I would be wary of someone who
hadn't (too good of a chance he/she had done all the stomping).

Then again, you may find someone to spend the rest of your life
with.  Believe it or not, some people do actually spend their years
with someone special.  Did you parents *never* love each other?

That means you can re-make it; any way you choose.  Don't sit around
waiting for someone or something to remake you--do it yourself.
Everyone starts out with the basic materials, the finished products
are just different.

Now, wait a minute, you're saying two different things here.  First
you wonder what to do if you're *not* attracted to them.  Well, you
let them know, as nicely as you can.  The 'just friends' aspect
works both ways.  Then you say you don't want anymore of this 'just
friends' with women, but you don't want to give yourself over for a
deeper relationship.  A lot of this seems to go back to you distrust
of people, women in particular.  Jeff, first you don't want a woman
who might control you or be superior to you in some way, but you
don't want a woman who would let you control her; in fact, you make
it sound as if there is something intrinsically wrong with a woman
who would let you control her.  Could you possibly see a woman as
your equal, or would you constantly be looking for a way for her to
be superior so you would have an excuse not to be with her?

No, it isn't Jeff.  Wanting to be liked and accepted is perfectly
reasonable.  Check out Maslow's hierarchy or Aldefer's erg theories.
They both include the concept of social acceptance and personal
acceptance (in fact Maslow's theory implies that you have to have
social acceptance before you can attain self-acceptance).

Check the paragraphs above Jeff....

Jeff, you can read thousands of books on a subject, and still not be
any good at the subject until you actually go out and practice it.

Well, now you've gone from something you can do something about to
something you can't.  If you feel that your God is omnipotent and
superior to you in every way, then there is nothing you can do but
sit in a corner and cringe and bemoan your fate.  That's a cop-out,
and you know it.  You're trying to give yourself a handy excuse to
use whenever you're afraid to try something.  Do you really think
the world is done up in black-and-white, with people either being
holy of the holies, or scum of the earth?

Besides, Jeff, you're really beginning to convince me that you
really *don't* like women.  You may be attracted to them physically,
but you really don't like them.  You wouldn't want one to be better
than you in a relationship, in your mind, which would mean
something; and you don't want to trust a woman, or be in a situation
where you might have to trust or depend on a woman. Why then, would
you want a relationship with one?

--
Laurie Sefton
{harpo,ihnp4,allegra,decvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!afo

Some people prefer top down programming; others prefer bottom-up:
Me? I prefer slash and burn...

I'm afraid you've mistaken my meaning in the use of the  word  "telepathy".
I'm  pretty much agnostic as far as believing whether telepathy technically
exists as such, though I'm leaning more and more towards belief in it.

My feeling is that if it does exist it is a relatively rare phenomenon  and
not  ordinarily  applicable  in day to day life for most people.  My use of
the word "telepathy" in my article was as a metaphore  for  the  assumption
that  many people make that others, especially SOs, should "just know" what
their needs are and not have to  be  told.  I've  seen  many  relationships
break up and much other grief caused by this type of "belief in telepathy".
(I earned a Master's in Clinical Psychology before  falling  into  computer
stuff.)  This  is  what  I  was referring to in my article, rather than the
technical existence of telepathy per se.

--
=========================================================================== ===
   ... sitting in a pile of junk on the runway, wondering what happened ...

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI                               If thy CRT offend thee, pluck
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.                      it out and cast it from thee.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

No

Yes, you are not alone. Beware of two problems: One is the Zelig syndrome--
by being more sensitive to others, you are better able to meld with them,
but you are also more likely to lose track of yourself as you go. There is
nothing quite like waking up one morning, looking in the mirror, and
realizing that you don't know who that person is-- it is very possible to
hide your own self so deeply in the layers of the chameleon that you forget
where you put it.

The other problem is when, as you say, you blow it. When it is good, it can
be VERY good, but when you DO misread things it can blow up in your face.
About all you can do is go out, lick your wounds, and accept the fact that
it is going to happen once in a while. Crawling in a corner permanently
gets rid of the problems, but it also gets rid of the joy, too. If I had a
choice between pain and nothing, I'd choose pain every time, simply because
I can work at ending pain, but with nothing you don't even know that you
really exist.

chuq
--
From the ministry of silly talks:               Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui  nsc!chu...@decwrl.ARPA

Now look here Mister "I'm not just a word processor"...

     warm sleeping kittens, not stiff like footballs. I would think that
the least casual observation of that eye catching sway or jiggle would
tell you that they are not like footballs.

     It feels very nice, but its not worth being weird to get a chance to
feel it. It will just happen soom day when you are older and cool about it.

you got it!!! net.singles.js   (jeff sargent)

this is a second draft of this letter.  i first wrote it on jan. 3, right
after i got back from christmas vacation.  i was going to post it to
net.flame, but then i though i'd let it cool for a while, and post it
to net.singles, where it really belongs.  i toned it down and took out all
the mean(funny) stuff.  i'm not trying to be sarcastic or humorous, i think
this news group at times has a serious problem, and i have a serious
proposition as a solution.

/* we now resume the old letter in progress (funny intro deleted)... */
...

what brought this letter on??  i just got back from my christmas vacataion,
and was catching up on notes from dec. 19 to jan 2, and i happend to notice
in net.singles on my machine there were 42 articles that did NOT refer to
JS, and 34 that were either his, or a follow up to his. that is nearly
half of the notes in the topic!!  were they all about new and interesting
things??? of course not.  they were all the basic "oh, i'm such a loser, such
a poor christian, i'm not as good a person as christ, i can't find an SO,
i had a terrible childhood, i had a terrible teenage-hood, i'm having a
terrible adult-hood, i can't find myself, i lied and acted to all the people
i met when i toured america, i dislike most of the human race, i'm the problem,
i'm scum"

jeff, it was ok the first time.  it was ok, the second time.  i didn't mind
the third, but about the 218th time really started to bother me (and
quite a few others)

my god jeff, do you REALLY deserve 32 of 76 articles to be by/about you?  all
the same dribble we've been watching for months??  are your problems that
incredibly important we ALL have to hear you beg for and then reject the same
advice every couple of months?  do you know what it's like to sit down and
read (i read notes off line) 32 letters about your problems in less than
45 minutes??  you start to see the big picture developing.  you put up these
"oh poor me letters", you get the "your not so bad, jeff", and then you say
"oh, but i am!" and they say "no, your not", and then you....

we ALL have problems jeff.  i have a wonderful girlfriend, but she happens
to be 800 miles away from me (for the next 1.5 years).  long dist. relationships
are very hard on a person.  but i'm not going to come on the net once a month
and TELL everyone in america, just so they can say "chin up, old boy, it's only
540 more days!!" (aaaaaagh!)

you happen to have more problems than any eight people i know.  i'm sorry
about that.  you come across as a very screwed up person.  ahhh, jeff, you
big lug.  i *do* feel sorry for you.  i almost feel guilty about writing
a letter like this, but i love the fan mail!!  B-) just kidding.  

here's the jist of all of this:  jeff, are you REALLY getting anything out
of reading this group?  better yet, is the group getting anything out of
your participation??  it's the SAME OLD STUFF, time after time.  it's as if
you wait for new people to get on the net so they can fall for your "i'm not
a perfect human" lines, and send net.sympathy mail.  those of us who have been
on the net for a while are getting a little fed up with all of this.
look at the traffic you generate.  and have i ever ONCE seen you say "wow!
thanks for the advice, i think i'll try it your way" or "gee, i never looked
at it that way, maybe i'll give your thought a shot".  NEVER.  it's always
"...but i'm not just a bad SO, i'm a worthless human, so your advice doesn't
apply to me" and that kind of junk.

i went and looked at all the net.singles articles on the machine i'm on,
and when i looked at a few months worth, you only had about 1/5 or so of
the articles devoted to your "problems".  still, i think that is enough to
bring out a net.singles.js.  you think i'm kidding??  at times you have
a MUCH larger proportion of the net.singles traffic than say net.music.classic
has compared to net.music, yet classic has it's own group.  this stuff is
getting OLD jeff.  very old!  it's dull.  it's repititious.
have you ever HONESTLY (i'm very serious) thought about NOT wasting so
much time on the net, and work on all of your "problems" instead?
i'm not saying you shouldn't have the right to use this group, but you
are HURTING the group more than anything.  try to be a christianoid and
"think of others" and all that stuff.

if enough people think there should be a net.singles.js, drop me a line, and
i'll post something to net.news-groups or whatever it's called.

        i CAN'T use the 'n' key, i read notes off line!!!!!

                ron vaughn      ...!ihnp4!ihdev!rjv

ps:  once again i'll come of looking like the big bad guy, and once again
i'll probably be speaking for the silent majority who are being polite
by not saying anything, but 'n'-keying this group away.

pps:  i took this perfect letter and went back and added all the grammar and
spelling mistakes in memory of mrs. perkins, my 5th grade english teacher.

Life is the only game in town.

Hey, it's a simple case of I'm not OK, You're OK, mixed with a little
Schlemeil and Ain't It Awful.  The amazing thing is that so many are
willing to play these "games people play" with Jeff.  Jeff doesn't want
to cure his problems, he finds the safety of the games comforting.

Some of us have far deeper problems than Jeffs, but are trying NOT to
play games around them, but instead to learn and grow beyond both the
games and the problems.

I offer an alternative... for those who will try to be brutally honest,
and avoid games and niceties as much as possible.  I AM interested in
growth, and lately I seem to have a problem with getting labelled as a
"man hater", because I've continually chosen as my subject, to confront
and attack the foibles of the "dark side" of men.  It's just that that's
what's been on my mind lately.  How about we turn it around and attack
the dark side of Sunny?  or women? I mean, I'm getting bored with Jeff,
and big breasts, and the defensive reactions of men who project themselves
into my critiques of the dark side of men.  Hey, I'm seriously interested
in exploring the games people play, especially the games women play, known
as "femininity", and the games men play, known as "masculinity".  Hey, we
all know what genitals are, that's how you tell someone's sex.  But what
about casting aside ALL the games, including those of gender role?  I think
it's not enough to cast aside the games like "Ain't it Awful" and all the
others from "Games People Play", but to also cast aside the games we all
assume from age 18 months when we decide what gender we are.

I mean, it certainly has worked for men to change the oil in the car
because they have penises, and women to cook because they have vaginas,
but surely we can question how those asignments are made, and whether they
have to be.  There is no REASON why women can't change the oil in their
cars, or men can't cook, only AGREEMENT on SOCIAL ROLES which are "NORMAL".

Certainly there is reason to be able to tell the boys from the girls in a
world where the main problem is having enough hands to go around, but now
that the world is grossly overpopulated, I'd like to believe that we don't
have to nuke it back to the stone age to solve that problem, that birth
control can be intelligently applied (since the only alternative is
death control), and that we no longer have such reason to insure millions
of babies.  We can pause in our being fruitful and multiplying, to simply
*enjoy* sex, not do it as a job for God (flames to net.religion please),
and we can afford to be whole people, rather than all living under the
premise that "women" will be one half of what people can be, and that "men"
will be the other half of what people can be.

Honest, men CAN feel emotions.  Women CAN change their oil.  Everyone can
cook.  (ok, flame me because I haven't chosen your stereotypes, but do it
in private, rather than wasting net.singles space on it).  My main point
here is that it doesn't matter what you've got between your legs, you can
be a WHOLE person, capable of anything, and you CAN allow yourself to do
anything.  Cast aside your inhibitions and be an INDIVIDUAL.  Do what YOU
want to do, not what your {friends,co-workers,mother,father,sibling,spouse}
say you must do, because you are {straight,gay,male,female,Christian}.  Say,
hey, !@#$%^ society and it's historical "norms", and do YOUR own thing.

Oh, yeah, I forgot something.  It takes work to figure out what YOU want, as
opposed to taking the easzy road and doing what you're "supposed to do".  I
should again mention M. Scott Peck's book "The Road Less Travelled" as a good
model should you wish to try being an individual.  Let me give you an example:

Now this example is far from the norm, but it's the one I know best.  It is
also the most difficult to enact, because it goes counter to the largest
number of social taboos.  I was born male, but have always felt myself to be
"a woman trapped in a man's body".  It's taken a lot of guts and not a small
amount of soul searching and psychotherapy, but I've finally reached the
point where I CAN say it to the world.  I am a transsexual, and I don't care
whether you like it or not, that's what I am, and I'm a free individual, and
I have the RIGHT to be the way I want to be (though want is a poor choice of
words for describing gender identity, which is "decided" by age 18months).
Now, if I can stand up to the wrath of the homophobes and the conformists
and the religious zealots, surely you can cast off a PIECE of your social
conditioning, and experiment with doing what YOU want to do, regardless of
whether it is "appropriate" for your {sex,gender,race,religion,etc}.

Hey, guys, go take a cooking class, or learn how to sew.
Hey, gals, go take an auto-mechanics course, or learn to defend yourself.

Ok, how many of you guys have the balls to wear a skirt to work?
Ok, how many of you gals have the ????? to tell the president of your
company to piss-off, that he's wrong, that you're right, that you're sick
and fucking tired of getting less pay for more work, for being refused the
more challenging and rewarding positions at work, that you'd better get a
raise THIS review AND stock options up the ying-yang, or you're gonna
organize a working-women's union at your company and bring the company to
a skreeching halt until you get equal rights?

Men aren't the only ones who can play power games.
Women aren't the only ones who can be sensitive, tender, caring, nurturing.

Now, I'm not claiming there aren't differences between the sexes, because
there certainly are.  A lot of the differences are a direct result of:
hormones.  Fact is, testosterone makes you aggressive and fiesty, while
estrogen makes you mellow, sensitive, and cooperative.  I know these things,
because I have crossed the dividing line, have experienced both sides.  And,
unlike the chicken crossing the road to get to the other side, only to wonder
why it did so, I'm determined to erase the double yellow line down the middle
of the road, 'cause I can't drive 55, and at 120 you need BOTH sides of the
road.  The "road less travelled", the path to individuality is a LOT of work,
and you often have to travel it alone, because most clones are too busy trying
to conform, to have any idea of who THEY are, as opposed to what it's
fashionable to conform to THIS year (ladies? dress YOUR style, not what's in
fashion from {Paris,NewYawwk}).

(Un)fortunately, most of the world is composed of mindless followers, sheep
who are content to not think for themselves, or wimps who are afraid to be
different.  Or women who are content to live in the shadow of their men.  OK
here's my chance to turn the tables, and see how many women I can draw fire
from.  Now I can be labelled a "women hater" too!  Why is it, women, that you
are so content to live as appendages to men?  To measure your success by the
"stature" of your man.  Is the measure of your ability (women's receptivity)
the powerfulness of the man you've caught? Can you only find fulfillment
vicariously?  Or do you have the balls to go out into the world and assert
that you are a WHOLE person, that you can stand on your own, and that YOU
have a mind, full of independent thought, and that you don't need to have
a man to be something?  Ow! where's the fire extinguisher?  Are you tired
of taking only a supportive nurturing role to men and children?  Do you have
any desire to accomplish something in the world?  Like taming the hairy
beasts around you so they don't nuke the world?  Ow, Ow, it's getting hot!
All of you, men, women, children, WHY ARE WE HERE?  What is the purpose of
our spirits being incarnate in the physical world?

No, NO, it's not just to grow up, have kids and die.  There's a reason for
it all.  No, it's not to sit passively in your church and listen to some
religious clone tell you what he thinks God intended for you.  It's not to
just read the bible and think you know God's word.  It's  NOT just to frig
your brains out until you die.  It's not to catch the world's most powerful
man as your husband.  It's not to catch the world's foxiest chick as your
wife.  It's not to have your children become "my son the doctor" or
"my daughter the lawyer".  It's NOT to clone UNIX systems, or even to get
the top rating in "The top 25 news submitters for the last week".  And,
*grin*, it's not even to become the world's Zen Druid master.

What is it, you ask?  Hell if I know.  And even if I told you what I
thought it was, that answer would only be right for ME, not for YOU.
We're each here in the cosmic kindergarten known as Earth for one and
only one reason:  To accomplish spiritual growth.  Yes, we ARE spirits
who have taken material form.  Yes, the ultimate goal is to grow to God's
level of "goodness" so we can join him in his dimension.  But we have a
long way to go to get there, or we wouldn't be HERE.

The point is, the journey itself.  And each and every one of us, born alone,
will die alone, and we each must make our OWN journey, alone.  Oh, you'll
meet many other spirits along the road, and some you may call "wife" or
"husband" for the duration of one "lifetime" or incarnation on this planet,
but we've all been here before, and we'll all be back again.  And we each
must make it on our own.  If you aren't on "the road less travelled", then
you're wasting incarnations.  and if you think for a minute that someone
else can give you the answers, you're out of the race, and into the pit.
...

read more »

While I do not endorse the creation of said group, I have to admit that I'm
weary of Jeff's unending self-invalidation as well.  I have a couple
different reactions to it.

Generally, when Jeff posts "something new"  (since WHEN?), I have a personal
reaction.  I want to reply or follow-up with an experience of my own; but
too many times Jeff's response has been "yes, but", so why bother?

Another factor we might consider is the "attention scale".  Jeff gets a
lot of attention in this group for being the way he is.  Would he continue
to post if that attention dropped off?  After all, if he gets to be
different (ie. "better"), how would he get attention on the net?

Obviously, there are readers who don't feel the sense of futility in
reaching out to Jeff.  I think I get some value out of my personal reactions
to some of Jeff's "original" postings; however, I would like to see more
of the follow-up moved to mail.  Please consider carefully, whether your
response is of of value to the group as a whole.

Moira Mallison
tektronix!moiram

######## still looking for housing in Berkeley! #########

I too am getting bored of the same cycle.
--
 AMD assumes no responsibility for anything I may say here.

 Phil Ngai (408) 749-5790
 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
 ARPA: amdcad!p...@decwrl.ARPA

[Please don't eat this line]

I would like to tell a story.

Several years ago, I met a woman by the name of Becky.  She was in my first
programming class at CU.  There came a time when we had a large assignment
due, I had it mostly done but was out of "money" (This was a CDC 6400,
doing Pascal on punched cards.  Never again!).  She had plenty of money,
but had not even begun to think about the assignment.  Thus was a promising
partnership started.

Over the next three years, we became close friends, and took several classes
together.  We survived William Waite's assembly class, (on the CDC 6400,
but with a 300 baud DECwriter terminal this time -- we thought we were
lucky), and even had a good time doing it.  About that time my schizophrenic
SO went completely nuts (the ending of that relationship included police
intervention).  Becky helped me through the resulting trauma.  When my
lease ran out a little later, and she had a room available in her house,
I moved in as her roommate.

Over the next three years we build a friendship that made all of my previous
relationships look like one night stands.  We came to love each other very
much, even though we continued to sleep separately.  We spent our vacations
together, we played games, saw movies, and essentially did everything together.
We began to live very much as if we were married, except that we never slept
together, which was funny because we had been known to do that occasionally
before living together.  Our social lives contracted to include very little
except each other.

Our closeness came out in many ways.  Christmas presents arrived addressed
to "Jon and Becky."  We accumulated at least $1000 worth of common property.
We decided that we would go into business together, and form an independant
company.  We moved into an isolated house way the hell up in the mountains.

A while back, Becky came to the (quite justified) opinion that she needed
a new job.  She searched in Boulder for a long time, with no luck.  My
opinion of my own employer went down a notch as NCAR ran her around for
months, said they wanted her, then promoted a student assistant into the
position instead.

Eventually, she applied to jobs out of state.  A company called "Eaton-
Kenway" offered her a job, and $10K more than her current salary.  She
accepted.  Unfortunately, EK is located in Salt Lake City, Utah.  So,
in a flash, she brought an end to the closest relationship that either of
us has ever had, and moved to Salt Lake.

Now...the month before she left was very strange.  We started sleeping
together.  She finally met my mother.  We both came to realize what we were
loosing.  Lots of tears were shed by both of us.  Toward the end, I came
to realize that I really wanted her to share the rest of my life, that
I did not want her to leave me alone.

So I brought this up.  I suggested that maybe after a year or so, we could
bring our lives back together (we both agreed that separation for a while
would be good for us.)  But this time, it would be as lifetime partners,
instead of roommates and friends.  Maybe we could still make our business
work too.  I was more than willing to move to SLC, since she could not really
quit this nice new job after one year.

She said no.  She tells me that she loves me, that she still wants to start
a business, but that we should both find somebody else.  She told me lots
of things, like "I don't want to commit myself to sleeping with one person"
and other sayings that women have always told me when they mean that they
are not interested.

Damn it, I don't understand.  We can bring each other so much joy when we
want to, and that was true even up to the very end, when she left me at
the SLC airport.  Even after we had the above discussion, we had a lot of
fun before I left.  We lived together for years without even having one
big fight.  We have so many dreams of what we want to do in the future.
Yet, she does not want me to be a big part of her future.

So here I am.  My best friend is gone, and I have nobody to talk to.  My
self esteem is crushed; I can't see any woman being interested in me now,
if Becky isn't after all the love and good times we shared.  I have no
social life left to speak of.  I break down in tears at my desk when I
am supposed to be getting work done.  I am seriously wondering why I should
even continue to try to make something out of life, now that the most
valuable part of it has left.  I really do not know what to do.

So here I am babbling out my situation to hundreds of strangers, and a
few semi-strangers (hi, Greg!).  I don't know what sort of response I
expect, if any.  I just need to talk and there is nobody to talk to.

For those of you who haven't gotten fed up and hit the 'q' or 'j' key,
thanks for listening.

--
jon