Perpetual Motion Machine (Honest!)
The Sophist
you should go get another cup before you read this.
This morning (Wed. 3/13/85) I heard on National Public Radio's
"Morning Edition" about some inventor in Louisiana who applied for a
patent for a machine that puts out more energy than it takes in (don't
start laughing yet). He claims that it is *not* a perpetual motion
machine; he says that it gets its `energy' from the `magnetic field'
(quotes are mine). Well, understandably the patent office said very
loudly, "No bloody way!" So, this guy takes them to court with a whole
bunch of "expert witnesses", including some scientist from
Sperry-Univac in Minnesota (I think). This scientist and a former
patent official support this inventor's claim (i.e., they say, "it is
true!"). So, the judge told the patent office to write up a patent.
But they still refused...and that is all I remember.
Since, I heard this at five o'clock in the morning, my recollection of
the story is kind of sketchy. What I would like to know is:
First, has anyone else heard the story?
Second, does anyone believe this? If (so/not) (why/why not)?
Third, is the Sperry-Univac guy on the net? If so, you
want to explain yourself?
Third, was NPR making a joke, and I was just too sleepy to
catch it or, should everybody start selling their Public
Utility Shares?
--
Pravin Kumar
Don't bother me! I'm on an emergency third rail power trip.
ARPA: phaedrus!eneevax@maryland
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!eneevax!phaedrus
J.SCHERER
patent office to issue to patent, they ordered the inventer to
demonstrate the "device" first. The inventer refused saying that
he's offered to show it earlier and had been laughed at - also that
the law doesn't require a demonstration.
No, I don't believe it (but I'd be happy to be proved wrong).
John Scherer Bell Labs
Ms. Sunny Kirsten
think the oil companies want it manufactured? We wouldn't be their slaves
any more!
Sunny
--
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
Doug Gwyn <gwyn>
> think the oil companies want it manufactured? We wouldn't be their slaves
> any more!
And how about that pill that you could dissolve in a tank full of
water for fuel, instead of gasoline? My, those oil companies also
suppressed that invention! (Which is why we never heard about it.)
David Albert
> water for fuel, instead of gasoline? My, those oil companies also
> suppressed that invention! (Which is why we never heard about it.)
The problem with the pill was that cars were getting addicted...
--
David Albert
ihnp4!seismo!harvard!albert (alb...@harvard.ARPA)
Barry Shein
a gov't pamphlet on obtaining patents a few years ago
that the *only* patent applications which they would
require a working model were those that claimed to be
'perpetual motion machines' [I think that was followed
by some generalized definition which would cover the
aforementioned item...like produces more energy than it
consumes.]
Patent lawyers: comments?
-Barry Shein, Boston University
Chris Warth
Seems this guy has been around for quite some time. The inventor
of this machine had a "demonstration" a few years ago at Tulane
University (New Orleans). Since the room was packed wall-to-wall
people, I did not get in to see the machine, but I did hear several
stories from people who managed to sqeeze in.
The inventor claimed no formal training in physics or electronics.
As I recall, his explanation of how the machine worked relied upon
"cosmic forces" and the like. He repeatedly evaded questions from
physics professors who were present. There were a couple of other
inconsistent things about his presentation but it was so long ago I
that am fuzzy on the details. I'm not sure but I think there was
something about an unexplained electric cord entering the machine. My
roommate at the time, a mechanical engineer, was not impressed at all
by the demonstration.
I do not see what this guy hopes to gain by perpetrating this
fraud. There was no admission charge to the demonstartion I
mentioned. If this were truly a perpetual motion machine then the
thing to do would be to sell the plans to Mobil or Shell and forget
about it. Didn't something happen similar lines with the invention of
an "everlasting" car battery? Something about Firestone buying the
inventor out and burying the plans.
Chris Warth
ATT-BL
Murray Hill, NJ
ulysses!csw
cle...@mnetor.uucp
Tesla himself claimed feasibility for such a system (1890's?). Sorry,
I don't have a reference for it, but it is frequently brought up in
various semi-(or completely) crackpot/conspiracy magazines (eg: the
Peach-pit, runless nylons etc. types). Not that I read 'em, but
sometimes the cover catches you eye. Tesla's idea probably would
work, but I think that it was impractical unless you had Sinclair
Molecules/tethered satelites - and didn't mind ozone/severed tethers
in your air.
The "inventors" experience with the patent office is typical. A couple
of years ago a one-man electric radiant-heater company was forced out of
business. He claimed 100% efficiency - one of our government departments
took exception to this - because it was "impossible". I always thought
that the loss of efficiency in electrical devices was due to some
of it being wasted as heat (eg: wiring resistance etc). What if
the desired product IS heat (and you don't let any of the light escape?).
I suppose that even then it wouldn't be 100.000000000%, but isn't
it close enough?
--
Chris Lewis, Motorola New Enterprises
SNail: 560 Dennison, Unit 9, Markham, Ontario, Canada, L3R 2M8
UUCP: {allegra, linus, ihnp4}!utzoo!utcs!mnetor!clewis
BELL: (416)-475-1300 ext. 321
D Gary Grady
> I've heard of this before, that it's being suppressed, and no wonder, you
> think the oil companies want it manufactured? We wouldn't be their slaves
> any more!
Hey, why do you think the dinosaurs so conveniently died out and turned
into oil all of a sudden? The asteroid impact theory is OUT (see 8
March 1985 issue of SCIENCE). It was the @#$% oil companies!!!
First the dinosaurs, then Lincoln, then Kennedy, and WHO DO YOU THINK
REALLY OWNS THOSE HOT COALS THE FIREWALKERS USE?????
Ahahahahahahaha!!!
--
D Gary Grady
Duke U Comp Center, Durham, NC 27706
(919) 684-3695
USENET: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary
Mike Taylor
> you should go get another cup before you read this.
>
> This morning (Wed. 3/13/85) I heard on National Public Radio's
> "Morning Edition" about some inventor in Louisiana who applied for a
> patent for a machine that puts out more energy than it takes in (don't
> start laughing yet).
>
> Second, does anyone believe this? If (so/not) (why/why not)?
> Third, is the Sperry-Univac guy on the net? If so, you
> want to explain yourself?
> Third, was NPR making a joke, and I was just too sleepy to
> catch it or, should everybody start selling their Public
> Utility Shares?
> --
1. Yes
2. Do I believe the story - yes. Do I believe the device works - no.
Anybody who refuses to demonstrate is in the vaporware business.
3. Not me.
4. It was in the paper (San Jose Mercury) also. Either not an NPR joke
or a conspiracy (unlikely). As to sale of shares, I see no reason
to be precipitate.
--
Mike Taylor ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,sun}!amdahl!mat
[ This may not reflect my opinion, let alone anyone else's. ]
Biding my time
The pill's perpetrator, a guy by the name of Guido Something-or-other,
claimed that the UFO that he got the fuel pills from was going to
land one night in a field in Warrenville, Illinois. Hundreds of people
showed up, but not the UFO. It should be noted that the field was
just across Warrenville Road from *AMOCO's Warrenville Research
Center*!!!!!!!!! And just to show you the power of these running
dog capitalist oil-mongering slavers, Guido was imprisoned for
FRAUD after the Amocoites obviously scared off the benevolent aliens
and Guido's investors got mad.
(Guido is in prison; he really did find some dupes to invest. The
field is on Herrick Lake Road between Butterfield Road and Warrenville
Road in Warrenville. Sort of a glowing testimonial to Dupage County,
isn't it?)
ihnp4!ihdev!rastaman
Give me all your money, I'll make you immortal.
Bob Kat Kaplan
> This morning (Wed. 3/13/85) I heard on National Public Radio's
> "Morning Edition" about some inventor in Louisiana who applied for a
> patent for a machine that puts out more energy than it takes in (don't
> start laughing yet). He claims that it is *not* a perpetual motion
> machine; he says that it gets its `energy' from the `magnetic field'
> [...]
I didn't hear the NPR article, but the invention sounds a lot like
Bruce DePalma's "N-Machine," a device based on the theories of Tesla
and particularly Faraday.
I heard DePalma on a late night talk radio show. He sounded like he knew
what he was talking about, and he's interested in sharing the idea with others.
He says he'll send plans of his machine to anyone who asks, but I wrote to him
about two weeks ago and haven't heard anything yet.
Bruce DePalma is very much against the institutionalized scientific orthodoxy
as is generally found in universities, as they are generally uninterested
in any evidence that their deeply held beliefs are incorrect. He has
apparently encountered a few physicists who have told him that his machine
can't work (in spite of the fact that it does) because the laws of physics
don't allow it. In other words, "My theory disproves your facts."
For more information, contact:
Bruce DePalma
P.O.B 4056
Santa Barbara, CA 93140
--
Bob Kaplan
"Where is it written that we must destroy ourselves?"
jeffreys
<>
> I've heard of this before, that it's being suppressed, and no wonder, you
> think the oil companies want it manufactured?
The same thing happened in Britain, several people came up with excelent
ideas for battery powered cars that would have a good milage rate, without
the need for millions of car batterys to hold the charge. Their ideas were
patented and then *bought* by the large oil companys.
Have we now got lots of battery powered cars running around the UK ?
Nnnnnooooooooooo we havn't. But we still have lots and lots of petrol driven
cars and trucks!
--
[ You called all the way from America - Joan Armatrading ]
[ You're never alone with a rubber duck - Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|| From the keys of Richard Jeffreys ( British Citizen Overseas ) ||
|| employed by North American Philips Corporation ||
|| @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Illinois ||
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|| General disclaimer about anything and everything that I may have typed ||
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Natalie <ron>
> > water for fuel, instead of gasoline? My, those oil companies also
> > suppressed that invention! (Which is why we never heard about it.)
>
> The problem with the pill was that cars were getting addicted...
Yes, but when they stop, they get pregnant.
-Ron
sonntag
> > think the oil companies want it manufactured?
>
> The same thing happened in Britain, several people came up with excelent
> ideas for battery powered cars that would have a good milage rate, without
> the need for millions of car batterys to hold the charge. Their ideas were
> patented and then *bought* by the large oil companys.
While it may or may not be true that oil companies have bought up and filed
patents for worthwhile inventions, I hope none of you net-readers actually
think that they've done this with a perpetual motion machine. The definition
of a perpetual motion machine (it puts out more energy than it takes in)
precludes its actual existance, *unless* the law of conservation of mass and
energy turns out to be just a suggestion. This seems *very* unlikely.
--
Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
"What sheems to be the problem, Ossifer?"- T. Kennedy
Gary Traveis
> machine; he says that it gets its `energy' from the `magnetic field'
> (quotes are mine). Well, understandably the patent office said very
> loudly, "No bloody way!" So, this guy takes them to court with a whole
> bunch of "expert witnesses", including some scientist from
> Sperry-Univac in Minnesota (I think). This scientist and a former
> patent official support this inventor's claim (i.e., they say, "it is
> true!"). So, the judge told the patent office to write up a patent.
> But they still refused...and that is all I remember.
>
Sounds a lot like the infamous Free Energy box that Tesla built many
years ago -- but that device is nowhere to be found... I hope that
inventor doesn't wind up the same way.
Gary
D Gary Grady
> ideas for battery powered cars that would have a good milage rate, without
> the need for millions of car batterys to hold the charge. Their ideas were
> patented and then *bought* by the large oil companys.
So why haven't the Russians simply used the designs (patents are public
information) to build a non-petrol fleet? In any event, just wait until
the patent runs out...
One might also note that batteries have to be charged from somewhere,
presumably power plants, so energy companies would not be seriously hurt
by battery-powered cars in the USA. And they could make a bundle
licensing the patent. Some Oil Company Conspiracy tales don't make
loads of sense.
Any takers for the notion that anti-nuclear power activists are really
in the pay of the oil companies? :-)
Prentiss Riddle
mutilations?
I've written to Rev. "Bob" about it, but I couldn't afford to send him the
case of fruit cocktail he wanted as a sacred offering.
Waiting for slack or enlightenment, whichever comes first,
Prentiss
Bob Dalgleish
> > water for fuel, instead of gasoline? My, those oil companies also
> > suppressed that invention! (Which is why we never heard about it.)
>
> The pill's perpetrator, a guy by the name of Guido Something-or-other,
> claimed that the UFO that he got the fuel pills from was going to
> land one night in a field in Warrenville, Illinois. Hundreds of people
> showed up, but not the UFO. It should be noted that the field was
> just across Warrenville Road from *AMOCO's Warrenville Research
> Center*!!!!!!!!! And just to show you the power of these running
> dog capitalist oil-mongering slavers, Guido was imprisoned for
> FRAUD after the Amocoites obviously scared off the benevolent aliens
> and Guido's investors got mad.
The pill was real; it's effect on the engine was also real. The pill
contained a chemical based on a halogen that reacted mightily with the
water producing a volatile substance suitable for burning - however,
engine life was under a thousand hours. Apparently, one or more con-men
made off with some life savings as a result.
This story has been circulating as a rumor since the 1920's. There was a
film based on the rumor starring Cary Grant (or an equitable
substitute). The price of gasoline in the movie was 10 cents a gallon,
so the age of the story certainly has an upper bound.
--
[The opinions expressed here are only loosely based on the facts]
Bob Dalgleish ...!alberta!sask!zaphod!bobd
ihnp4!
(My company has disclaimed any knowledge of me and whatever I might say)
Rick Wilson
There is already at least one patent issued for a motor whose only
power source is a permanent magnet. It was written up a couple 3
years ago in, I believe, Popular Science.
Think about it. There really is a lot of energy in a permanent magnet.
One little magnet you pull off the bottom of a lady bug that's holding
a shopping list to your refrigerator door will pick up a hell of a lot
of nails (one at a time) before it wears out. I have never actually
witnessed one of these magnets show any signs of wearing out, though
I suppose they could.
Here's the touchy part. Isn't that energy already in the material
before it's made into a magnet? It's all in the atoms/molecules.
All you do to make a magnet out of it is to align the atoms/molecules
so they all face the same way.
Even water is electromagnetically polar. The molecules just move
around too easily for a whole ice cube to stay polarized.
Now, how much enery does it take to align the atoms/molecules?
Does it take more than you can get out of a magnet before it wears out?
I don't know. Someone must. Someone tell us.
Does this make sense at all? Let's remember how many brilliant
inventors of the past got laughed out of town before they got rich,
and give this some serious thought.
Rick Wilson
Beaverton, Oregon
tektronix!tekfdi!rick
Mike Urban
Lots of the followups on the "perpetual motion" machine have
been along the lines of "yeah, it's just like the water-to-gasoline
pill that the oil companies supressed." Its interesting how many
times a version of that story comes up. I've heard about:
The incredibly efficient automobile engine that XXX Motors Inc
has been keeping under wraps all these years (so they can
keep selling their gas guzzlers, ya see).
The magic pill mentioned in the intro.
The mystical encryption algorithm that was snarfed up by
NSA and never seen again.
The mystical DEcryption algorithm that was snarfed up by
NSA and never seen again.
The motion picture, "The Man in the White Suit." (sort of).
...I guess we file this story under "myths for our time." If
someone has heard a version I've missed, post it to *me*, not
the net, and I'll summarize (Mike Urban presents Urban Folklore).
--
Mike Urban
{ucbvax|decvax}!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban
"You're in a maze of twisty UUCP connections, all alike"
Rick Wilson
First, let's stop calling this subject "perpetual motion." No one,
including the inventor ever said it was.
I looked up the references I guessed at in my previous article.
The Pemanent magnet motor is written up in the Spring, 1980 issue
of Science & Mechanics magazine.
A patent was issued to Howard Johnson [sic] of Grass Lake, Mich.
April 24, 1979. The patent number is 4,151,431.
The patent abstract follows:
The invention is directed to the method of utilizing the unpaired
electron spins in ferro magnetic and other materials as a source of
magnetic fields for producing power without any electron flow as
occurs in normal conductors, and to permanent magnet motors for
utilizing this method to produce a power source. In the practice
of the invention the unpaired electron spins occurring within
permanent magnets are utilized to produce a motive power source
solely through the superconducting characteristics of a permanent
magnet and the magnetic flux created by the magnets are controlled
and concentrated to orient the magnetic forces generated in such
a manner to do useful continuous work, such as the displacement of
a rotor with respect to a stator. The timing and orientation of
magnetic forces at the rotor and stator components produced by
permanent magnets to produce a motor is accomplished with the proper
geometrical relationship of the components.
There it is folks. Can the magnet off the back off a refrigerator
lady bug produce power? I know people who are convinced it can,
and people who know it can't, as a matter of principle.
I've never seen it work, but the U.S Patent office was convinced.
Ron Natalie <ron>
> RO-Na + H2O -> NaOH + R-OH
>
> For further details see "Organic Chemistry" 3rd Ed.
> C 1973 Morrison & Boyd pg 526-527.
Great, then we just have cars that travel around dumping lye all over
the place.
-Ron
Laura Creighton
told this story.
There are some diseases which kill cattle and which also leave the
meat unfit for human consumption -- or at least, they won't pass
government regulations, whether they should is another story. In
times gone by some farmers, having found a dead cow in their pasture,
would singe its coat in a particular fashion to simulate ``struck
by lightning.'' Lightning struck cattle were okay for eating. So
the vets, who had to certify a cause of death for the corpses, were
told to look for tell-take bits of wax and other signs that the farmers
might have been up to something. However, this training did not help
a professor of my aunt's who was called out one day to certify that
a whole herd had been ``killed by aliens''.
Strange, but under the mutilations, it sure looked like (I think)
Anthrax...
Laura Creighton
utzoo!laura
ps -- It could have been a friend of the professor.
david harmon
By the way, guess where those alkoxide salts (RO-Na) come from?
Dave Harmon
TANSTAAFL (-RAH)
The Polymath
>
>One little magnet you pull off the bottom of a lady bug that's holding
>a shopping list to your refrigerator door will pick up a hell of a lot
>of nails (one at a time) before it wears out.
That little magnet won't pick up _any_ nails. It will attract a nail and
probably hold its weight if brought into direct contact. Any lifting
energy comes from an outside source (e.g.: your hand and arm).
--
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA 90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
Jeff Lichtman
> >
> >One little magnet you pull off the bottom of a lady bug that's holding
> >a shopping list to your refrigerator door will pick up a hell of a lot
> >of nails (one at a time) before it wears out.
>
> That little magnet won't pick up _any_ nails. It will attract a nail and
> probably hold its weight if brought into direct contact. Any lifting
> energy comes from an outside source (e.g.: your hand and arm).
>
Imagine suspending a magnet by a string, and then sliding a nail underneath it.
The magnet will pick up the nail, and you haven't provided any lifting power.
Here is what happens. When the piece of metal was made into a magnet,
potential energy was stored in it. This energy is changed to kinetic energy
when it moves nails. It only enough energy to pick up a finite number of
nails at one time; a magnet that has a lot of nails clinging to it won't
attract any more.
When you pull the nails off the magnet, you do work. This work is returned
to the magnet as potential energy. Thus, the little refrigerator magnet
isn't a perpetual motion machine. It will do a finite amount of work (the
amount of work done on it to magnetize it, assuming perfect efficiency),
and you must perform the same amount of work (thus putting energy into the
system) in order to restore the magnet's former ability.
--
Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.)
aka Swazoo Koolak
Jan Steinman
>The incredibly efficient automobile engine that XXX Motors Inc
> has been keeping under wraps all these years (so they can
> keep selling their gas guzzlers, ya see).
Well, once I was curious about all them nifty gadgets in the back pages of
Popular Mechanicals and J. C. Whippennies, and having (at the time) more
money than plain, good sense, I fired off a dozen checks and installed a
bunch of the things.
The ads told it all, and I (though a bit skeptical) sucked it all in: the
carburator water injector that saves 22%, the gasoline additive that saves
27%, the special engine treatment -- guaranteed for 19% better mileage, the
special low-friction tires that get a whopping 37% more miles to the gallon;
I got 'em all. I was really excited at the prospect of 105% better mileage.
There's only one problem, now. I get sick from swallerin' gas. Y'see, every
few miles I gotta stop and siphon some out to keep the tank from overflowin'!
--
:::::: Jan Steinman Box 1000, MS 61-161 (w)503/685-2843 ::::::
:::::: tektronix!tekecs!jans Wilsonville, OR 97070 (h)503/657-7703 ::::::
The Polymath
Touche', one and all. I concede, I blew it. Serves me right for shooting
from the hip. Yes, a magnet will do work in lifting a nail a small
distance. The image I had in my head (and erroneously responded to) was of
the nail being moved a fair distance -- say several inches or so. That
would require an outside source of energy. I will now go sit in the corner
and write 100 times "Engage brain before setting mouth (or keyboard) in
motion.".
--
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)