To spank or not to spank, is it a question?
Prince Caspian
From postnews Fri Feb 14 14:49:42 1986
Subject: To spank or not to spank, is it a question?
Newsgroups: net.kids
Distribution: net
Warning: VERY newuser posting.
I apologize to any of you in this group who think I am asking a stupid
question. Even if this has gone around before, I don't think it's likely that
people have heard it stated *quite* this way, so bear with me a sec...
I am not a parent. I am a young adult with an unusual family history. The
only thing I feel justified in saying about that history is that it has left me
quite vulnerable and insecure. The rest is private or semi-private, to protect
myself and others whether innocent or guilty....
One result of my reactions to my past is a deep interest in issues related
to what I can only call "nurturance": family relationships, marriages,
friendships, self-esteem, *and the growth and protection thereof*.
That is the reason I read this group. I want to investigate parenting
and parenting-styles, to apply what I learn wherever I can, personally and
hopefully professionally. End background info. digression.
My question is this. I have been studying the "professional" view of parenting for a number of years now. I have read, or at least perused, every book I
could get my hands on. Some of you may be laughing already as you see what an
obvious mistake that is. :`) In all of this, I have found one very disturbing
commonality. WHY IS SPANKING SO UNIVERSALLY CONDEMNED? No smiley. To me this
is quite serious. Does it make any sense to say that I believe that corporal
punishment *can* have a place in a child's life? Not *for everything*, nor
*for every child*, (as unfortunately the "professionals" would have you think
that *all* spanking parents believe...), simply that it *can* work.
I believe that in some cases, I missed something important when I was not
spanked. I believe that there are some cases where a child's emotional health
is jeopardized by so-called "sensible" discipline of the sort the books espouse,isolation or time-out, lectures, PET, etc. ad nauseum. I believe there are a
lot of myths about what constitutes punishment, what is good discipline, what
is child abuse, and so on. These are quite unhealthy and need debunking, if at
all possible. This is opinion based on experience.
I would like to hear from parents who *do* spank. (Come on, there must be
some of you out there.) What results does it have with your kids?
What do YOU think of yourself and your children when you spank, before,
afterwords? What comes out of it, emotionally, for you and your kids?
If you spank "successfully", what makes the difference?
What kinds of things do you spank for, and avoid spanking for?
What is the differance between the way you handle spankings in your family,
and "child abuse"? Do you cross the line sometimes? How and why, and how do youavoid it?
If you don't believe that spanking has any value, you need not respond,
as I have been thoroughly acquainted with every sort of argument against it.
IF YOU USE IT, PLEASE DO NOT USE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT OF ANY KIND TO
PRESENT YOUR REASONS. I am a Christian, and believe in "the rod" on scriptural
grounds, BUT NOT FOR THAT REASON ALONE. I am specifically trying to challenge
the assumption that ALL SPANKING IS ABUSE. This requires evidence having nothing to do with one's religious convictions. Feel free to tell me anything else
about how, why and when you spank, but don't tell me it's because God, your
parents, or anybody else either told you, or paddled you, or whatever....
*Think about it*.
Sorry if I ramble on. Please mail, and I will post summary to the net,
or get someone who will post the summmary for me if necessary....
In all Dilligence and Goodwill, Caspian.
From postnews Fri Feb 14 17:21:03 1986
Subject: PATH TO CHALI AND DAVE, URGENT.....
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian,net.religion
Distribution: usa
To Charli phillips and Dave Whoever (fluke!ptl)
I think I need that site-map you offered. Sorry Dave, for not remembering your
last name at the moment. I can't seem to get to anybody off-site by email....
But then, I've only tried once so far. I'm a *very* newuser, so it might take
me awhile to set things up...
Charli, thanks for caring so much. I need to get back to you on a few things...Sorry to post to the net, folks.
In His Peace
Caspian
--
- Prince Caspian of Narnia, AKA Francis X. Carmody
Electronic Adress (UUcp only:{hplabs,seismo}!hao!udenva!fcarmody}
OR: {boulder,cires,denelcor,cisden}!udenva!fcarmody
The above opinions are my own, noone else in the known galaxy should be held responsable, except in the rare cases where they coincide with the opinions of Almighty God... In the above case, any disagreement with said opinions should be refferred directly to Him....
:w
Richard Snell
reasonable person who would NEVER spank my own child), that
1. spanking = child abuse. Period.
2. it may produce immediate "results" but the long-term costs out-weigh
any short term benifiefits.
3. I hope "spankers" send their "justifications" to the author of the
original article via email--though it might provide interesting reading
(depressing too) to see why intelligent adults think they should smack
their kids around (or their spouse around... ). No smiley here.
Richard Snell, UofToronto Zoology
--
Name: Richard Snell
Mail: Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1A1
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!snell
Randy Goebel LPAIG
> reasonable person who would NEVER spank my own child), that
> 1. spanking = child abuse. Period.
> 2. it may produce immediate "results" but the long-term costs out-weigh
> any short term benifiefits.
> 3. I hope "spankers" send their "justifications" to the author of the
> original article via email--though it might provide interesting reading
> (depressing too) to see why intelligent adults think they should smack
> their kids around (or their spouse around... ). No smiley here.
> Richard Snell, UofToronto Zoology
Such a strong statement; seems pretty zero/one. I, on the other hand,
am convinced that the concept of spanking is useful. There are many
forms of abuse; perhaps those who so strongly criticise physical spanking
perpetrate mental child abuse instead?
Tom Harris
> reasonable person who would NEVER spank my own child), that
>
> 1. spanking = child abuse. Period.
> 2. it may produce immediate "results" but the long-term costs out-weigh
> any short term benifiefits.
> 3. I hope "spankers" send their "justifications" to the author of the
> original article via email--though it might provide interesting reading
> (depressing too) to see why intelligent adults think they should smack
> their kids around (or their spouse around... ). No smiley here.
>
I don't know what makes Richard think he has become a "fairly
reasonable adult" when his article is so unreasonable (not to
mention insulting). If you've never been spanked how the hell can
you make a decision as whether it has a long term cost or a long
tem benefit? I was spanked as a kid (not frequently, but when I
deserved it). Frankly, I think it helped me gain self discipline.
It taught me how to weigh the cost of an action vs the benefits I
would receive from doing the action.
I spank my child, there are times when it is neccessary.
I don't spank her to get "results"; I spank her when the long term
benifits outweigh the short term costs (and it costs to spank
someone you love).
I don't spank her for just any infraction or because I am mad
(that would be child abuse).
Before she could talk, she was spanked when she got into a
potentially dangerous situation i.e. playing with electric cords
etc.; this made sure she wouldn't do it again.
Currently she gets spanked mostly when my not spanking her would
cause greater damage than my spanking her. For example, playing
with electric plugs, dangerous chemicals (Note: we have done what
we can to prevent her from getting access to these, but children
are as smart as we are and it rarely takes that much to figure out
most locks), crossing the street without looking both ways first,
etc. What is the cost of a spanking next to a child's death?
There are also several things which my wife and I can not or
will not tolerate although they do not directly endanger my
daughter. One example is writting in books; another would be
direct disobediance of a direct order. Spanking is a last resort
and only done when verbal warnings have not worked and when she knows
better. My daughter is currently averaging about 2 spankings a
year. She is very self disciplined and even though all her
neighborhood friends are older and larger than her she is not a
follower but an equal.
Tally Ho,
Tom H.
T Wheeler
edition of Dr Spock's baby book concerning spanking. The
drift from never spank to an occasional, if really needed,
whack on the rear is interesting if you have read his
earlier editions. Just remember, discipline is NOT a
dirty word.
T. C. Wheeler
BEATTIE
harmful, I also don't think it is necessary.
I feel a child can understand your disaproval of their behavior
thru your tone of voice (even if they are too young to understand
all the words).
Spanking is NOT education - it is punishment.
> Currently she gets spanked mostly when my not spanking her would
> cause greater damage than my spanking her.
> Tally Ho,
> Tom H.
This contorted argument just shows that Tom H. must be able to
teach his child acceptable behavior (in non life-threatening
situations) WITHOUT spanking.
---
Tom.
...!{ihnp4 | hou2g | allegra | ulysses}!hoqax!twb
P.S. For what it's worth I was spanked (occasionally) as a child.
Ed Tankus
> >
> > The non-spanker's reasons were given here.
>
> Tom H. replies with a flame and ...
I am a father-to-be (April or May) and I generally support Tom's thinking. My
wife is a different story. She does not believe in spanking AT ALL.
We have had many arguments about this, still with no clear resolution.
I was spanked and, many times, severely beaten. I deserved the spankings
sometimes (of course I'm prejudiced) and sometimes I did not. I NEVER deserved
the beatings. Still I feel that being spanked, swatted, whatever, has it's
place.
Despite and because of the hitting, I feel I have grown up very well-adjusted.
I will love my child and care for it with all my heart. I hope that the lessons
I have learned *MAY* preclude me from ever hitting that child. But I will not
delude myself with fantasies.
Electrical cords, chemicals, sharp objects, hot stoves, etc., all *MAY* require
a parent to use this option. Torrid, screaming tantrums *MAY* necessitate the
same treatment. I know that when I pulled one of these, I got it. It taught
me about selfishness, about manners, about asking for things in a polite and
reasonable way.
I have used the term, "spanking", in a very general way, much like everyone
else. But spanking doesn't have to mean an open hand across the buttocks. It
can be a stiff finger firmly planted on the child's hand as they reach up to
the hot burner. It can be any similar variation.
If I feel I have to spank, I will. But I will also try to reinforce what I did
by explaining to the child what they did wrong or what the result of their
actions could have been. Maybe, just maybe, they would have learned enough to
preclude me from spanking them again. But then again, I can't delude myself
with fantasies ...
Thanks for reading this far. I NEVER intended for this followup to be so long.
--
" For every word there is a song upon which inspiration lies ..."
Ed Tankus
Net : {noao!ihnp4!yale!}!hsi!tankus
Snail: Health Systems Int'l, 100 Broadway, New Haven, CT 06511
Jeanette Haritan
>While I don't think an occasional spanking is particularly
>harmful, I also don't think it is necessary.
>I feel a child can understand your disaproval of their behavior
>thru your tone of voice (even if they are too young to understand
>all the words).
>Spanking is NOT education - it is punishment.
>
mommy and/or daddy spouting off again.:-) I really believe that a
spanking will benefit more, simply because it stings more, and the child
doesn't become bored with the discipline, for example, you can yell 'till
you're blue in the face, and (I've had it happen) the child develops a
smug look (thar she blows!). He's BORED! He knows that that is the worst
it will get.
When I whack his buns, HE KNOWS "hey...I think I blew it!).
jlh
Andrew Lawson
>In article <2...@hoqax.UUCP> t...@hoqax.UUCP (BEATTIE) writes:
>>While I don't think an occasional spanking is particularly
>>harmful, I also don't think it is necessary.
>>I feel a child can understand your disaproval of their behavior
>>thru your tone of voice
>>
>mommy and/or daddy spouting off again.:-) I really believe that a
>spanking will benefit more, simply because it stings more, and the child
>doesn't become bored with the discipline, for example, you can yell 'till
>you're blue in the face, and (I've had it happen) the child develops a
>smug look (thar she blows!). He's BORED! He knows that that is the worst
>it will get.
>When I whack his buns, HE KNOWS "hey...I think I blew it!).
>
I have a five year old who is very strong willed. Usually,
the stern talking to stops whatever the problem is, however,
after a few times of being talked to in a short time, she hardly
notices. Then the spanking (calm - not a sudden attack) gets
her back in line.
The odd thing about it is that she doesn't seem to mind the
actual pain of the spanking nearly as much as the unavoidable
recognition that she got caught and is not in charge.
Again, this is my own situation. I'm new to the business (instant
family) and don't know whether this is unusual.
--
Drew Lawson
cbosgd!ukma!drew
"Parts is parts." dr...@uky.csnet
dr...@UKMA.BITNET
Clayton Cramer
I'll do my best to give you reason to question my sanity!
As I was growing up, I was spanked. Infrequently. I can't think of
more than five or six times that I can remember being spanked by my
parents. It was almost always done by my father (probably a good
thing, since he was the calmest person I've ever met), and was just
about always done because of some willful action that was utterly
without good reason and was stupid.
As an example, I had an argument with my mother about something when
I was around 8. (The last time I was ever spanked.) The original
argument I don't remember, and I think it must have been pretty
inconsequential. I went into the bathroom and proceeded to unroll
an entire roll of toilet paper onto the floor -- greatly reducing its
usefulness. (We were not a wealthy family, by any means, and I'm sure
they were upset at the waste of the paper more than the defiance.)
My father spanked me with his hand, against my bare bottom, about five
or six times. It hurt. A lot. And I learned that this sort of utter
waste to express my anger was NOT acceptable under any circumstances.
My wife was brought up in a somewhat more traditional home. She was
spanked A LOT. Her father lost his temper, and engaged in punishments
that seem to me to be extreme -- but not child abuse. Unfortunately,
my wife was being punished for the actions of her older brother who had
terrorized her into taking blame for his mindless destruction of the
house they lived in.
When my wife was pregnant, the two of us talked a lot about punishment
and how it should be done. I argued this way:
Until a child is capable of some emotional maturity and reasoning,
a spanking may be the only way to make them not do something which
endangers them or others. Therefore, spanking can be appropriate
for some situtations. If a child gets to be 10 years old, and you
still have to spank them, you've made a serious mistake somewhere
earlier on.
A child should not be required to agree with every decision. A
child should be allowed to argue the validity of a decision, and if
they can demonstrate that they are right, the parent should back down.
(As my parents did, frequently.)
My wife had what seemed to me to be a rather Neanderthal approach to
the subject. It was close to a, "spank 'em hard and spank 'em long"
attitude.
Now that our daughter is two, and trying to assert her independence,
we actually have to involve ourselves in the process of teaching her
how to behave. We spank her for the following things:
1. Behavior which she has repeatedly been told is inappropriate.
(Example: writing in books that are "Mommy's" or "Daddy's".)
2. Life or limb threatening actions. (She frequently insists that
she is quite capable of crossing streets and parking lots without
us holding her hand, and thirty feet away from us. She gets
spanked. I know, many of you think that shows a lack of love.)
We want her to make it to an age where we can rationally
communicate with her. It is true that when we are in a parking
lot we can carry her, without spanking her. But sometime we
may be inattentive for whatever reason -- we can't watch her
all the time, she has to learn, by whatever means are necessary,
that she can't do some dangerous things. (This also includes the
time she started playing with a paperclip and an electric outlet,
and the time she crawled into our refrigerator while moving and
closed the door behind her.)
3. Direct defiance of an order. The reason for this is that, while
at some point I expect her to be able to reason things out for
herself, and debate an issue, if I DO give an order, it is likely
to be something in the life-and-limb category.
My wife hates to hear Hilary cry. As a result, she has a hard time
spanking her. I don't have a problem spanking my daughter because,
why it really rips me up to hear her cry, I know that our administration
of spanking is fair, reasonable, and designed to assist her in becoming
a self-disciplined and ALIVE adult.
I have a sister who never spanked the kids. She and her husband lived
in Berkeley. The kids wrote on the walls because my sister and
brother-in-law didn't want to stifle their creativity. The oldest
became a serious drug (cocaine) problem briefly at 11 (hey, this is
Berkeley), and all of them were the most unpleasant, impolite, rude,
and selfish little brats you can imagine. I am happy to report that
my sister has overcome her attitudes about spanking, and they are fast
approaching civilized behavior for kids their age.
Al
We have two boys, ages 2 & 3. Spanking and threatening to spank
were our primary form of punishment for both boys until they started
going to a babysitter who has four children of her own. She makes
them stand in a corner for a half minute or so with great results.
The time in the corner is by no means "timed", and the kids know
when it's ok to come out. And they usually do with tears and arms
wide spread. The "threat" of being sent to the corner and "being"
sent to the corner is much more effective, for us than spanking,
usually. I'm not saying that they still don't get spanked anymore,
because they do; but a lot less frequently.
Al Dunn