Russian Nuclear Accident
s...@scbhq.uucp
(Eat Me!!!)
U.S.A. - Last night on our local and national news, there was an announcement
that the Russian's have experienced a nuclear accident, some where in south-west
Russia. The news report said that it is believed there was a melt-down
(China-Syndrome) in one of their nuclear power plants. Later on the news
reported that it was believed there were 1000's injured in Kiev, the capital
of the Ukrainian S.S.R. Kiev is located in the north-central part of U.S.S.R.
Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your
first hand reports, and comments.
Stephen Powers
South Central Bell
Birmingham, Alabama
Anders Andersson
>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your
>first hand reports, and comments.
[This might quickly get either scientific or political. Direct followups as
you wish, but remember that net.politics does not reach Europe by itself.]
As western news media and authorities usually keep each others informed
(with the sparse TASS bulletins in mind) of what they know, I suspect you
can get almost the same info as I regarding the details of the Chernobyl
accident itself, just by listening to the news. What might differ is the
coverage of its various effects in neighbouring countries (i.e. Europe).
An increase in radioactive radiation has been measured in several European
countries. In Sweden, the increase has ranged from 2-100 times the usual
background radiation (it's somewhat unclear to me what these figures really
mean, as the background radiation itself can vary a lot between different
geographical areas). The main peak was located just west of Uppsala (from
where I'm writing this). This should be due to the rain which fell here on
Monday the 28th and around. The radiation is now steadily decreasing.
The total amount of radioactivity received here is about 1/1000 of what's
considered really *dangerous*, about 1/50 of the *security limit* chosen for
ordinary people, and about 1/5 of the limit chosen for pregnant women. Thus
it seems very unlikely that someone here will actually get harmed from this.
As radioactive material, mainly iodine-131, might concentrate on the ground,
some precautions have been recommended. Among these, farmers have been
advised to keep their milk-producing cows indoors a few days more, until the
radioactivity in the grass has been declared below reasonable levels. Also,
people are advised not to use rain water for drinking and cooking.
I've heard similar reports from the FRG, Luxembourg and Austria. Eastern
Europe is expected to have received a much higher amount of radioactivity.
In Poland, children have been given iodine solution for protective reasons.
I think in Romania people are advised to stay indoors, but reports from
these areas are few as usual. Food imported from eastern Europe will be
carefully checked for radioactive pollution before accepted.
The accident has also resulted in a re-born debate on the Swedish nuclear
power programme, and there have been demands for immediate closing of all
Swedish nuclear reactors (of which none is said to have the same design as
the misfortunate Chernobyl reactor).
To throw in my personal opinion: "Rumors in Kiev say 2000 deaths"... I
simply don't believe such a rumor (who could possibly have counted them,
without the authorities' blessing?) until better proven. It might even be
true that only two persons were killed, as they declare - I know nothing
about what Chernobyl looks like geographically, and what kind of staff was
at the plant on Saturday the 26th. If someone knows more, please tell us.
What seems to be likely is that vast areas around the place are spoiled for
several years, but for how long and how seriously is impossible to tell
without any real, detailed information on what happened. Those tens of
thousands of people who were evacuated (the entire population of Chernobyl,
I guess) were said not to be able to return "within the nearest future".
The silence and briefness of Soviet media on what's the most serious
disaster ever with a nuclear power station is itself worrying, though not
very surprising. On Tuesday evening (the 29th) Soviet sport television
showed pictures from a sunny Kiev, where bicycle contests were held during
the weekend, together with a public chess tournament (indoors). Though I
don't understand Russian in any useful way, neither the television team nor
the public seemed to recognize what was going on in their neighbourhood
right then. I think it was on Wednesday they first mentioned the accident
on the news.
Later they accused western media and "certain powers" for exaggerating the
whole thing "to miscredit the USSR". They themselves are to be blamed for
most of the rumors, as they have strangled the flow of concrete information.
They might be partially right in that we would most likely use another tone
and ask different questions, in the case the accident should have happened
in the west. Maybe we should think more about this, in order to improve our
possibilities to communicate.
I didn't say we have no reason for our tone and our questions.
I don't worry the least for the Swedish people. I'm somewhat worried about
what the effects will be in eastern Europe and in Balticum, perhaps Turkey
(nothing has been said about Turkey so far). Most I'm worried about the
situation for the people of Chernobyl and its surroundings. Being unable to
help directly, one still wants to know what's going on, to be able to show
sympathy at least - but the self-righteous attitude of the Soviet
authorities quickly changes sympathy into frustration and anger.
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170
UUCP: and...@kuling.UUCP (...!{seismo,mcvax}!enea!kuling!andersa)
Kim Fabricius Storm
>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your
>first hand reports, and comments.
I believe that we know just as little as you do over there. Most of
Europe have been slightly polluted, but according to the experts
there is no danger to our hel............... AAAAAAARRRRGHhh..
--
Accidentally the "China Syndrome" was shown on TV a few weeks ago,
and I can still hear Jack Lemon (I can't remember the name of the
character he played) say that "Only NASA have a higher security
level than the Atomic Industries"; I immediately remembered the
Challenger accident and now we hear about the Delta rocket -
Is it a US power plant next time, or a German or a Swedish or a UK
or a French or ... ?
Stephen J. Muir
>first hand reports, and comments.
By the time the nuclear cloud reached us, it was very low level. The only
precaution we've been asked to observe is not to drink rainwater directly. Tap
water etc. is OK. Drinking rainwater direct for a week is said to be
equivalent exposure to 1 year's normal normal background radiation. Milk is
being checked regularly, and it's been found safe so far. The background
reading in the atmosphere is 20% above normal, and falling.
It took a very long time for the Russians to admit more than 2 people were
killed, and they still haven't come clean. They asked the West to put out the
fire, and it's now under control. It seems some workers at the site survived
by stripping naked in the loo and using their clothes to cover the openings in
the loo. Of course, Reagan's spy sattelites were too busy watchin Libya!
There was a fire at a nuclear plant not 10 miles from here (in Heysham).
Fortunately, it was only a power transformer. The reactor was shut down
immediately and there was no damage to it -- nor did any radiation leak. It
is expected to remain shut down for a week.
I believe the Scandinavian countries had it worse.
--
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David England
>
>that the Russian's have experienced a nuclear accident, some where in south-west
>Russia. The news report said that it is believed there was a melt-down
>(China-Syndrome) in one of their nuclear power plants. Later on the news
>reported that it was believed there were 1000's injured in Kiev, the capital
>of the Ukrainian S.S.R. Kiev is located in the north-central part of U.S.S.R.
>
>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your
>first hand reports, and comments.
>
building. Unfortunately the Russians did not tell anyone about this and
the first reports of anything unusual came when the Swedes reported high
levels of radiation over their country. The Russians eventually said that
2 people had died and some 200+ were taken to hospital. However most
Western European experts reckon many more are affected and that much of
the USSR's prime agricultural land is contaminated. The fallout has wandered
over much of Western Europe including Britain. Our Government says the
levels here are not dangerous but ground level radiation in this spot is
40x higher than usual and we've been advised not to drink rainwater. Imports
of food from the Eastern Bloc are banned and people are being advised
not to travel there.
The Russians now say (7-May-86) that the reactor is 'stable', but I
believe it could still be giving out radioactivity. This is the situation
as I understand it at present - as a computer hacker not a physicist. In
the long term the Russians could food shortages due to contamination, a
big rise in cancers over the next 20-40 years and a possible dent in their
industrial expansion programs.
David England
--
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Gareth Howell
>In article <2...@scbhq.UUCP> s...@scbhq.UUCP writes:
>>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your
>>first hand reports, and comments.
>
>reading in the atmosphere is 20% above normal, and falling.
>
that is still very low. When it gets to 100 times, you start
worrying.
The head of the NRPB in the UK said that the figures were so low, and
so subject to variation with respect to current safety levels that you
could make a case that the radiation did you some good!!
--
Gareth Howell <how...@idec.stc.co.uk>
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George D M Ross
spread pretty widely around Europe, and indeed the rest of the world. It is
reasonably easy to track, of course. Presumably other pollution from
industrial sites also distributes itself equally widely, such as acidic
emissions from coal-fired power stations etc....
--
George D M Ross, Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Edinburgh, Scotland
Phone: +44 31-667 1081 x2730
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Alastair McAvoy
Well, lets put it this way, umbrellas are now called portable nuclear
fall-out shelters. No, but seriously, a cloud of radioactive dust has been
touring Europe (which is more than we can say for American tourists) causing
concern among many countries in Europe - especially Austria and Poland.
Some countries are advising that no milk or water be drunk and are giving
children iodine to protect them against fall-out.
In Britain the government has told us that there is nothing to worry about,
as long as you don't drink rainwater, but the other day there, they said that
the radiation measured in milk in Scotland was 10 - 30 Becquerels,
contradicting an independent group's measurement of 390 Becquerels.
Even so, because of the leakage more people are going to get cancer than
under normal circumstances.
Dave Berry
British computing press about COCOM restrictions on export of "sensitive"
technological material to the Eastern Bloc. People have been jailed for
selling PDP-11's to Hungary, and so forth. Some editorials have suggested
that th USA is using these rules to its own commercial gain.
Also, a year or two ago the USA tried to stop European companies from
working on the Siberian gas pipeline, which tranfers gas from the Siberian
gas-fields to where it is needed in the Western USSR.
Speculation - if the USSR was more technologically sophisticated, the
effects of the Chernobyl accident would be reduced. Maybe we should
relax some of the COCOM rules.
This is not to say that a more open system than the USSR would also
encourage safer reactor designs, and that this might be more important.
Nor is it to imply that there is such a thing as a "completely safe"
nuclear power station.
Comments, anyone?
--
Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh
...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db
ir708
> could make a case that the radiation did you some good!!
> --
> Gareth Howell <how...@idec.stc.co.uk>
could someone please explain the possible "good" effects of radiation
to someone who knows nothing about these things and is concerned about
the long term effects as well. thanks.
Pertti Tapola
Russian Nuclear Accident to Scandinavia.
It is quite true, that Finnish authorities have made mistakes in
informing people about the radiation levels in the first days
after the accident. Contrary to popular belief, the problems have
not been because of Finnish foreign politics but rather because there
are some problems in the flow of information between the different
authorities.
Most of Finland has gotten very little of radiation, I think even
less than Sweden. It has been because of the fortunate wind directions
after the accident. The largest values of radiation have been
measured at the west coast of Finland. The highest measurement that
has been made there was 400 microroentgens per hour and at most
sites the values have been well under 100 microroentgens per hour.
Around Helsinki area the values have been 30 to 50 microroentgens
per hour. The normal background radiation is about 10 to 20.
The only warning given is that you should not drink rainwater.
There have been not limitations in eating domestic vegetables, because
of the season, there are yet none. Vegetables from Eastern
Europe are checked very thoroughly.
Finland is quite a safe place currently, what comes to radiation
as well as terrorism. East Europe is worse off with radiation, and
Middle and South Europe and Great Britain with terrorism.
There have been no terrorist attacks in Finland, at least for
40 years. Welcome to the country of thousands of lakes
(880 000 actually, they have been counted, would you believe?).
...mcvax!penet!santra!pta Pertti Tapola
p...@fingate.bitnet Helsinki University of Technology
pta%fingate...@wiscvm.wisc.edu Computing Centre
SF-02150 ESPOO, FINLAND
--
...mcvax!penet!santra!pta Pertti Tapola
p...@fingate.bitnet Helsinki University of Technology
pta%fingate...@wiscvm.wisc.edu Computing Centre
SF-02150 ESPOO, FINLAND
Soeren Rabbe
>In article <1...@comp.lancs.ac.uk> ste...@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Stephen J. Muir) writes:
>>In article <2...@scbhq.UUCP> s...@scbhq.UUCP writes:
>>>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your
>>>first hand reports, and comments.
>>
>>being checked regularly, and it's been found safe so far. The background
>>reading in the atmosphere is 20% above normal, and falling.
>>
>I think you will find that figure was 20 *times* not 20%. However
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that is still very low. When it gets to 100 times, you start
>worrying.
According to the official statements in Denmark, it WAS 20%. It seems like
the radiation in the air above Denmark has been about 20% to 40% above normal.
And it is falling.
What worries me is the nature of the particles. It looks like most of the
radiation comes from Iodine-131 which is easyly adopted in the body. What
harm it has caused is unknown. But the half-life period is about 30 days,
so the risk for further exposure will reduce fast.
--
Soren Rabbe (AmbraSoft A/S, Denmark).
Kim Fabricius Storm
>>I think you will find that figure was 20 *times* not 20%. However
>>that is still very low. When it gets to 100 times, you start
>>worrying.
>According to the official statements in Denmark, it WAS 20%. It seems like
>the radiation in the air above Denmark has been about 20% to 40% above normal.
>And it is falling.
It was mentioned in the Swedish television this evening that the
radiation in Stockholm was now between 100-1000 times less than
immediately after the catastrophy in Tjernobyl. I was a little
puzzled by this statement, since nobody have said that the radiation
was a 100-1000 times higher than normal, but perhaps they meant that
the increase in radiation is now 100-1000 times less than before?
I really hope so!
BTW. I heard that a soviet scientist compared the amount of
radioactive material that have leaked out from Tjernobyl is
comparable to *ONE* atomic bomb test in the Atmosphere.
Does anyone have any figures that indicates a world-wide
increase in the number of cancers as the result of the *MANY*
atomic bomb tests performed in the 60's and the 70's ? Or
as a result of the Soviet sattelite that crashed in Canada a
couple of years ago ?
------------------
Kim F. Storm, st...@diku.UUCP (seismo!diku!storm)
Institute of Datalogy(=CS), U of Copenhagen, Universitetsparken 1, DK-2100 OE
Ed Falk
> effects of the Chernobyl accident would be reduced. Maybe we should
> relax some of the COCOM rules.
>
Dr. Helen Caldicott had some interesting points along these lines WRT
nuclear war. She points out that as the US and USSR put more and more
"quick" weapons into the field (such as cruise missiles based in Europe
that reach their target in 6 min. instead of 30), that they move closer
and closer to adopting "Launch on Warning" policies. This means that
the missiles are launched at the first indication of an enemy launch rather
than waiting until the leader gets the news and authorizes a counter-strike.
The reasons for this are obvious: six minutes are just not enough to
detect an enemy launch, prepare a counter-strike AND get Reagan or
Gorbachov awake enough to sign the forms. The USSR (I believe) has
already said that they will be forced to adopt a launch-on-warning
policy if cruise missiles are based in Europe.
Now, if we go to a launch-on-warning system, we literally put our lives
not only in the hands of our computers, but also in the hands of THEIR
computers. The US has several well-publicised incidents where computer
error has mistaken things like flocks of geese for incoming missiles.
In one case, during the Carter administration, we would have been within
one minute of total destruction had we been on launch-on-warning.
We don't know how often this happens in the USSR, but considering the
sorry shape that their computer industry is in, the situation is probably
pretty grim. There are scientists who claim that accidental nuclear
war will PROBABLY happen within the next few decades for this reason;
simply because of the probabilities adding up.
Thus, Dr. Caldicott says "It is in our interest to make sure that the
Russians have the best computers we can give them. It would be
patriotic to give computers to the Russians".
--
-ed falk, sun microsystems
Paul M Koloc
>the half-life period is about 30 days, so the risk for further exposure
>will reduce fast.
It is the short half life that makes iodine dangerous. Iodine
comes from the decay of xenon which can diffuse into the steel
cooling pipes in reactors and decay to iodine and always be ready
to wipe out plant workers in a couple of minutes if the pipe
accidentally ruptures and the coolant is released in their presence
for whatever reason. The isotope can get into the blood stream
through breathing, drinking water or milk and eating sea foods that
have a high uptake or even eating salads of leafy vegetables.
The trouble comes from its concentration by grazing fish, krill,
and land animals and in the human body the principle site of
concentration is the thyroid. Embryos are especially sensitive..
... by a more than a thousand times. Thyroid cancers can be
above average for many decades beyond the date of exposure. Cesium
is also quite hot (radioactive) and dangerous to human health.
If there would be runaway reaction and melt through (China syndrome),
then plutonium breeding would be a problem and the total radiation
would be millions of times the levels in this case of the Urkrainian
disaster. In spite of the utterances to the contrary, near
worst scenario nuclear disasters could wipe out a genetically
viable human race. There was 400,000 to 800,000 lbs of Uranium
in the reactor that dusted us. We can thank God our earthly
technology didn't spawn much of a problem this time around.
Imagine the plutonium that thing could cook up in an uncontrolled
runaway breeding frenzy. Oh! by the way there is a lot of
diffusing radioactive gas bubbling out of the ground from the
world's under ground military fission weapons tests, and this
won't peak in the atmosphere for several more centuries. A
little something to increase the night glow for the grand kids.
Support your local innovative fusion shop.
+---------------------------------------------------------+--------+
| Paul M. Koloc, President: (301) 445-1075 | FUSION |
| Prometheus II, Ltd.; College Park, MD 20740-0222 | this |
| {umcp-cs | seismo}!prometheus!pmk; p...@prometheus.UUCP | decade |
+---------------------------------------------------------+--------+
Adam Quantrill
>harm it has caused is unknown. But the half-life period is about 30 days,
>so the risk for further exposure will reduce fast.
Actually, it's 8.05 days. I wonder why my supermarket has sold out of mineral
water?....
-Adam.
Kenneth Ng
> It is the short half life that makes iodine dangerous. Iodine
> comes from the decay of xenon
a neutron, or from decay of tellurium 131. Iodine 131 does transmute
into xenon 131, which gives off an electron and then becomes stable,
half life 12 days.
> Thyroid cancers can be
> above average for many decades beyond the date of exposure.
> If there would be runaway reaction and melt through (China syndrome),
> then plutonium breeding would be a problem and the total radiation
> would be millions of times the levels in this case of the Urkrainian
> disaster.
breeding would tend not to be a problem since the reactor would have to
stay somewhat intact to keep producing plutonium.
In spite of the utterances to the contrary, near
> worst scenario nuclear disasters could wipe out a genetically
> viable human race.
Repeat, what information do you have to support this? And, what
information do you have that indicates why the rest of the scientific
community is not correct.
--
Kenneth Ng: uucp(unreliable) ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!njitcccc!ken
bitnet(prefered) k...@njitcccc.bitnet
New Jersey Institute of Technology
Computerized Conferencing and Communications Center
Newark, New Jersey 07102
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Number 5: "I need input"
ZNAC801
The British Embassy in Moscow being worried about radiation
poisoning has advised all the British students living in Kiev and the
surrounding areas to boil their water before drinking it.
--
Paul Anderson. The Bicycle Repairman. Kings College London
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cra...@kontron.uucp
> as well as terrorism. East Europe is worse off with radiation, and
> Middle and South Europe and Great Britain with terrorism.
>
> There have been no terrorist attacks in Finland, at least for
> 40 years. Welcome to the country of thousands of lakes
> (880 000 actually, they have been counted, would you believe?).
>
> ...mcvax!penet!santra!pta Pertti Tapola
> p...@fingate.bitnet Helsinki University of Technology
> pta%fingate...@wiscvm.wisc.edu Computing Centre
> SF-02150 ESPOO, FINLAND
Another reason to consider visiting Finland: Finland paid off their
World War I debts to the U.S., unlike the rest of Europe.
Clayton E. Cramer
Kim Chr. Madsen
1) Funny looking babies
2) No need for a bed-lamp (your head's glowing)
3) etc. etc. (-;
k...@njitcccc.uucp
> This is a true story......
>
> The British Embassy in Moscow being worried about radiation
> poisoning has advised all the British students living in Kiev and the
> surrounding areas to boil their water before drinking it.
sterilized (:-> Anyway, water filters might do some good.