Flaming being studied at CMU
Scott Orshan
There is an interesting article in today's science section of the
New York Times entitled, "Emotional Outbursts Punctuate Conversations
by Computer," by Erik Eckholm.
I'm not going to type in the entire article, but here is the first
paragraph:
"Computer buffs call it 'flaming.' Now scientists are
documenting and trying to explain the surprising prevalence
of rudeness, profanity, exultation and other emotional
outbursts by people when they carry on discussions via
computer."
The study was done by behavioral scientists at
Carnegie-Mellon University. Most libraries should
have the N.Y. Times on file. (Unfortunately,
based on some of the questions and discussions on
the net, most readers don't know what a library is.
Hey, that sounded like a flame. I guess I lied.)
--
Scott Orshan
Bell Communications Research
201-981-3064
{ihnp4,allegra,pyuxww}!u1100a!sdo
Andrew Banta
> "Computer buffs call it 'flaming.' Now scientists are
> documenting and trying to explain the surprising prevalence
> of rudeness, profanity, exultation and other emotional
> outbursts by people when they carry on discussions via
> computer."
I really don't think they need to do a study on this unless all they
want to do is waste their money. I can think of two VERY obvious reasons
why flaming is so prevalent on a computer.
First of all, take a look at the average age of the people on the net.
It seems to me that the younger you are, the more likely you are to want
to argue your point and try to prove to others you're right. If you want
an even better crtieria, look at the psychological and emotional age of
the people on the net. A few noted examples could very possibly pull
this down to around two. (Note: I think most people are able to act
their age.) I also think that people will bring up controversial issues
just for the hell of it, to keep things fun ...
Secondly, it's just my opinion, but I tend to think that the computer
field is rather competetive. And what other way to have fun than compete
on something that has nothing to do with computers, eh? I mean why
waste vlauable knowledge on computers when you can waste it on other
people, right? I find it fun to try to mathc wits with other people, and
I think they feel the same way. Face it, CMU, flaming is fun!
Now do you really need a study to tell you why you flame?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Banta {decvax!allegra!inhp4}!pucc-k!agz
Alcohol Design and Application Corp. --- Serving people over 21 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Far away, across the filed, the tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees to hear the softly spoken magic spell"
mori...@fluke.uucp
>documenting and trying to explain the surprising prevalence
>of rudeness, profanity, exultation and other emotional
>outbursts by people when they carry on discussions via
>computer."
Oh, great. Now I have to deal with a lot of headshrinkers hanging around my
cubicle, asking me if I hated my parents and if this inkspot reminds me of
Dolores Del Rio after a hard night of partying.
Hey, guys, I've got WORK to do... gimme a break.
I am NOT an ANIMAL! I... AM... A... SOFTWARE... ENGINEER!!!
Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
fluke!mori...@uw-beaver.ARPA
Danny Glasser
>
>There is an interesting article in today's science section of the
>New York Times entitled, "Emotional Outbursts Punctuate Conversations
>by Computer," by Erik Eckholm.
>
>I'm not going to type in the entire article, but here is the first
>paragraph:
I have the entire text of the article on line. If anyone wants it, send
me mail and I'll send you a copy. (If there's enough demand I'll post it
to net.misc.)
Danny Glasser
{decvax,allegra,ima}!yale!dglasser
Glasser...@YALE.ARPA
DGLASSER@YALECS (BITNET)
C Koster
(well at least one of you...)
Psychologosts don't NEED a reason to study anything,
they do it for the same reason hackers flame!
I should know I'm a psychologist!
Chris (my friends call me ZOOT) Koster
Mike Ward
> I am NOT an ANIMAL! I... AM... A... SOFTWARE... ENGINEER!!!
>
in the world.
--
Michael Ward, NCAR/SCD
UUCP: {hplabs,nbires,brl-bmd,seismo,menlo70,stcvax}!hao!ward
ARPA: hplabs!hao!sa!ward@Berkeley
BELL: 303-497-1252
USPS: POB 3000, Boulder, CO 80307
Rick
>Carnegie-Mellon University.
Anybody got their net adresses. Let's get those pond scum with the impudence
to think that the likes of *them* can possibly make worthwhile comment on *US*.
rick
Jeff Meyer
>> I am NOT an ANIMAL! I... AM... A... SOFTWARE... ENGINEER!!!
>>
>Oh, get off it! You're just a programmer, like everyone else
>in the world.
Yes, I used to think that "software engineer" was a term used in about the
same way as "kitchen engineer" (i.e. "A rose by another other name...");
but now I is one.... :-)
Actually, I have been wondering if there is an actual distinction between
the terms. I've supposed that "software engineers" were a subset of
programmers; they were people who worked on designing and developing
software for computers during the construction of the computer (e.g.
Operating Systems), as opposed to another subset who design software for
already-constructed machines (e.g. application and system programmers?).
But as in any real-world terminology, there is probably quite a bit of
overlapping.... anyway, I was just wondering if the term had any specific
job characteristics.
Then again, maybe I'm just rationalizing...
Look, why don't you just go back to calling me an animal...
"...in an iron coffin, with spikes on the inside!"
Danny Glasser
Due to high demand for the New York Times article on flaming,
I have posted it to net.misc. Send me mail if you want to see
the article but your site doesn't receive that newsgroup.
Danny Glasser
{decvax,allegra,ima}!yale!dglasser
Glasser...@YALE.ARPA
[NOT dgla...@YALE.ARPA]
DGLASSER@YALECS (BITNET)
Dan Messinger
>Actually, I have been wondering if there is an actual distinction between
>the terms. I've supposed that "software engineers" were a subset of
>programmers;
There are definitely two different educational disciplines for programmers.
I, personally, have chosen to use the terms "software enginneer" and
"programmer" to make the distinction between the two. Others may disagree
with my choice of terms, but the fact that there are two disciplines remains.
Programmers: These are the students of liberal arts colleges, junior
colleges, and vo-techs that offer what they call a degree
in computer programming. This usually amounts to learning
COBOL, RPG, and maybe FORTRAN, and how to operate a keypunch,
cardreader, lineprinter, and sometimes how to load 9-track tape
drives. This is usually a two year degree, although vo-techs
may do it in less than one.
Software Engineers: Engineering colleges offer an engineering degree
in programming. These students take classes in algorithmic
structures, data base, high level languages, assembley
language, operating systems, automata theory, number theory,
and compiler design. And usually they will take a course in
a language or 2 or 6 or more, just for kicks. These students
are doing good to complete their studies in only four years.
For the non-programmer, I have explained this distinction by an anology to
other engineering fields, such as electrician/electrical engineer, and
mechanic/mechanical engineer.
University of Minnesota supports both degrees. The "programmers" that I
had meet there seldom understood what more there could be that the "software
engineers" were learning that they were not. Many of the "software engineers"
thougth that the "programmers" degree was a joke.
Other people have written about the lack of Unix or C training in schools.
I would not expect such experience from a "programmer". But a "software
engineer" should have been exposed at least to the concepts (not necessarily
the real thing) that are found in Unix and C. Their operating systems
classes should have compared tree structured directories to flat directories,
and discusses pipes and other interposes communications. Their language
classes should have covered the concepts found in C. My own stay at the
U of Minnesota did not teach me C, but when I got around to learning C on
my own, I found it did not contain any concepts that were new to me, thus
making it a trivial task to learn. My experience with a real Unix was limited,
(no formal classes used it, there was just a V6 system around to play with)
but my classes on operating systems covered all the concepts (while only
occasionally mentioning that Unix was an example of a system that had
these concepts)
So which is the real programmer? Since there is a need in the marketplace
for both disciplines, both are real. But employers should be aware of this
difference in educational disciplines, and choose employees that fall into the
proper category.
Also, while I maintain that there are TWO educational disciplines, there are
also a diverse number of areas of expertise within each. There are also
the ambitious "programmers" that go beyond their college's requirements
and could qualify as "software engineers". And there are some "software
engineers" that slough though their courses, not understanding why they
are being taught this stuff, who should have been in the liberal arts
program to begin with (but didn't understand the difference when they signed
up), and end up knowing little more than the person with the liberal arts
degree. This tends to blur the distiction between "programmers" and
"software engineers". The classification becomes more of a scale than
one-or-the-other.
As always, the opinions expressed above are only my own, but I know that
I am not alone in my thinking.
Dan Messinger (Software Engineer)
ihnp4!umn-cs!digi-g!dan
SME
Computer Engineering. What will these people be called?
Programeers?
Engigramers?
Well, I guess Computer engineers would be appropriate.
Martin Taylor
>
> I am NOT an ANIMAL! I... AM... A... SOFTWARE... ENGINEER!!!
>
Oh, get off it! You're just a programmer, like everyone else
in the world.
Everyone else in the world may be, but he claimed to be constructed
by one of those everybodys. Just one of those Usenet AI projects ...
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt
{uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsrgv!dciem!mmt
mori...@fluke.uucp
>Coveralls. Big watch. Rides a train. CHugga-chugga, choo-choo.
Yes, it's always us blue collar workers who get laughed at by you bougeouis
(the spelling is probably wrong, due to my education on the streets)
college-educated "programmers". So what if I don't meet up to dress
standards set by an oppressive social class? All I've got to say is, you
better be careful when crossing the tracks next week...
RAAAAAAAMMING SPEED!!
[Insert Arlo Guthrie Music Here]
Be there. Aloha.
mori...@fluke.uucp
there are always groups of people, due to motivation, personal history,
etc., who "break the rule" -- no generality is always true (spot the irony,
folks!). I would like to emphasize, tho', that NOTHING effects the
programmer/software engineer status like EXPERIENCE! I know quite a few
people who had very little formal education, and have equivalent (usually
greater) knowledge of software subjects than the average graduate of a
4-year CS or CE program. Conversely, there seem to be quite a few people
who graduate with a 4-year degree who have little interest in CS (just in
the money associated with it), whose lack of motivation has rewarded them
with equivalent (or less) background of a 2-year degree.
Ok, shields up....
"Hurry! They're freaking out on stale Heineken!!"
"I'M A FROG! I'M A FROG!"
Betsy Hanes Perry
I don't mind Mr. Messinger's two categories, but I disagree with
his assumption that liberal-arts colleges are reduced to teaching
COBOL. My liberal-arts college goes to the opposite extreme:
it considers COBOL and keypunches beneath notice, possibly because
they're too job-oriented. (-;
In any case, Dartmouth College's CS program is run by the mathematics
department, offers all the classes he requires for 'software engineers',
and none of the ''liberal-arts, vo-tech'' courses. (Actually, only the
engineering department bothers to teach FORTRAN at all, but that's another
argument.)
Don't downgrade liberal-arts schools; they can provide fine technical
educations, even (especially!) if they don't restrict themselves to being
technical.
--
Betsy Perry
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay
Chuck McManis
of programmer. The first seems to go by the name of Software Engineer, or
Systems Analyst, and sometimes Computer Scientist. These are the people
that design software systems, and concieve new languages or algorithims. Then
there are the group of people that seem to go by the name of Programmer or
Coder or Hacker. They are distinguished by an excellent implementation ability
but a rather lacking design ability. So, slowly but surely I am seeing a
division of the "professional" field of computer science, into the
Engineers, and the Technicians. Seems to happen to most professions when
the technology must be specialized in to make any advances into it.
Look for even more specialized degree programs in the future, I know currently
at USC you can be an Electrical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Structural Engineer,
Petroleum Engineer, etc. But only a Computer Scientist if you go the software
route. I suspect this will change to Software Engineer, Microcode Engineer,
Package or Application Engineer, ad infinitum.
--Chuck
--
-- Chuck - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - -
{ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my
{proper,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my
{ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
ARPAnet : "hplabs!intelca!cem"@Berkeley
Don Steiny
I took one programming class in college which I barely
passed. My college degree is in linguistics, yet every company
I work for calls me a "software engineer". I am on the board
of directors of a company and through no doing of my own, I am
listed as "VP of Engineering." They do this because I write
complicated computer programs for the marketplace, port UNIX,
port compilers, and other highly technical things. I am self-taught.
I think that it is a marketing distinction. It is not
surprising that universities would organize their subject material
into categories that reflect the marketplace. I resist the title.
Engineers build bridges, I am an artist!!
--
scc!steiny
Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382
109 Torrey Pine Terr.
Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060
ihnp4!pesnta -\
fortune!idsvax -> scc!steiny
ucbvax!twg -/
Dan Messinger
>RARF! snarl snarl snarl...
>
>I don't mind Mr. Messinger's two categories, but I disagree with
>his assumption that liberal-arts colleges are reduced to teaching
> COBOL. My liberal-arts college goes to the opposite extreme:
>it considers COBOL and keypunches beneath notice, possibly because
>they're too job-oriented. (-;
I apologize to Betsy and anyone else who felt insulted by my insinuation
that liberal arts colleges can not provide a full CS education. I did not
intend to categorically define ALL liberal arts schools as providing a
lower level of CS education.
I admit that there are some four year liberal arts programs that provide
most, if not all, the CS technical classes. I used "liberal arts" only
because I am aware of some liberal arts colleges that offer BA and AA
degrees in computer programming that do fit my "programmer" model.
I ask you to please use my descriptions of the type of educational
program provide rather than the names I attached to them. No mater what
names I attach to these catagories, there will be some school out there
that uses these names, and doesn't fit my model.
However, the background provided by a liberal arts education is different
than that provided by an engineering education. This is only a reflection
of the person's interests and areas of expertise, and not necessarily on
their programming abilities. These areas of expertise are important to
an employer. For this reason, I do not feel that a liberal arts CS education
is equivalent to an engineering CS education. For some jobs, the liberal
arts CS education may be more appropriate.
And, of course, there is no substitute for real world experience.
Dan Messinger
ihnp4!umn-cs!digi-g!dan
wal...@isosvax.uucp
You may be a craftsman, but artists deal in the arts.