Re: [neonixie-l] Re: GeekKlok and FLW up for grabs

[Shane Ellis]

Crawl back under your slimy rock Ray.  No ones buying.

On Dec 2, 2012, at 7:43 PM, Raymond Weisling <zetali...@gmail.com> wrote:

Also I would include a number of different drawings for laser-cut acrylic cases that are very attractive, both for the large board and split PCB versions. These are FreeHand or Corel-draw files that any laser cutting operation can do. These cases also could be sold to retrofit to existing FLW/GKK units

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[Raymond Weisling]

I feel it is only reasonable that I defend myself from the poison pens that gathered.

The history is that my company went bankrupt, or was forced to close its doors. These nixie product were not al all the main business We did new product design engineering for a US-client that made health care signal systems and they were my client (before I formed a corporation) from 1990 to 1999, with one assistant working with me. In 1999 things with them were looking better and I had some money to invest in forming a limited liability corporation here in Indonesia. I then hired four engineers and we kept this client in California happy until 2005 or 2006. Then they were bought out by Tyco International, and for about a year we kept running but suddenly they gave us notice that they were moving everything and merging with Simplex Time Recorder in Massachusetts, where they already had 80+ engineers. My 4-man team meant nothing to their bottom line.

At that point we began working with a local company that made traffic lights and took them on as a client. After about five months of work, they were unable to pay close to $5000 in invoices, and we had to stop. I had to take care of my staff during this time of promises from the other company, but when it was clear that they were unable to pay (they were cheated out of $40,000), my staff quit one by one, because I was forced to pay their salaries late. This is where the whole thing unraveled. Several times I tried to recover and eek out a living with the nixie products, but with too little capital to invest and sudden expenses from some health emergencies, we were in a spiral. Debts piled up. I'm paying interest of 30-40% oer year on some debts, which makes it very hard to climb out of a slimy hole.

I'd love to pay everyone back and I never had any intention to cheat or defraud anyone ever. (Someone said hundreds of customers who didn't get products, but the total is probably about 50-70.)

As for loss of sales data and no loss of engineering materials, the engineering materials were on two old Macintosh computers, one of which is still working at age 12. The sales stuff was in a PC Windows machine that got hit by lightning surge, in a different part of the house, quite removed from the other. We had the old Zetalink office in a separate garage, and that is where I put kits tohether, did assembly of units and packed orders for shipping. That's where both telephone and electric power lines entered the premises. The engineering files in my Mac were in a second floor bedroom converted to an office, quite separated, and protected with a good surge protector. (The adjoining room had some non-nixie things and that's the room where a whole wall collapsed in the May 2006 earthquake, more ton a ton of debris was all over the contents. That earthquake was only 5.9 magnitude, but killed about 6000 people (on my own Dwelling Unpreparedness Index (DUI) it was the third worst worldwide earthquake since 1945).

I just want to see that these products continue on and can help pay off some of my local debts where interest is so high. A hospital project coming up may provide enough funds for refunds to people, but the banking details for it have been delayed for six months or more. I just don't want to cheat anyone, never did intentionally, and certainly have no interest in doing it again. Bad Karma.

I hope that the bitter people can release their poison. They harbor ill feelings, so they live with that poison. Learn to forgive, very powerful medicine. I am very sorry for injuring so many through the mess I went through.

Very Best Wishes....Ray

[Lucky]

Of course what you could do is release all the plans, data, rights etc. to the general public! At least that way SOMEONE might benefit and I'm sure many here on the group would assist others in building some devices or give advice maybe even make some of the case components and boards etc. That way you will not come over as a scammer (or worse), your project would live on as open source, it will cost you nothing and those that lost money would at least be partly placated. Just an idea for you to mull over

[Raymond Weisling]

One problem is that the microcontroller is not in production any longer and it is an EPROM/OTP type that needs a programmer. I believe that a parts dealer in Jakarta is sitting on hundreds of these (I will check soon). I have a programmer adapted from the original databook from Motorola that copies the object code from a 2732 EPROM, can verify it and copy protect the part.. This is something that can't be shared. has to go to one person who has the ability to work with it. Actually there are two programmers, identical, but the last time I used one of them it didn't program the part correctly and the part couldn't be programed by the working one. I no longer have a scope to be able to troubleshoot the bad one, but since both are identical and the schematic is available (from me), it is repairable.

The microcontroller is MC68HC705C8A. I also have a Taiwanese programmer that may also program them, System General AllWriter. That could also be added to the deal. I found it easier to use the little 12-20cm one we made as a stand-alone appliance than to haul out that AllWriter. Some of this is a bit fuzzy because at the time I had another engineer on staff who would tinker with these.

All of the FLW code and most of the GeekKlok code was written by me, but some was done by an assistant (a grad from Renssalaer Polytechnic in NY), my best US-trained engineer.

I'm evaluating proposals to release everything, but face huge debts as well. I'd like to solve both in some way. Thanks for POSITIVE comments, y'all. Keep the poison in your own veins.

[petehand]

I'm not going to spit at you Ray, because I did in the end receive the kits I ordered - but well over a year late, by which time they were no use to me. I don't see anyone stepping up to buy the design, though. The processor is obsolete, and some of the other parts are pretty much unobtainable now. The PCB design is nothing to be proud of, either. As someone else suggested, if you want the design to live on, then put it on the web as open source. That's the eventual resting place of many old designs and they do live on, maintained out of sentiment by groups of enthusiasts. If you really want to be a hero, publish the designs for your original FLW, the one that used counters and diodes. I promise you THAT one would live forever.

[Jeff Thomas]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:09:47 PM UTC-7, Raymond Weisling wrote:

I feel it is only reasonable that I defend myself from the poison pens that gathered.

 
Hello Ray.
Hopefully I can help provide some insight into the damage to the members of the neonixie-L forum, and the (formerly) eager prospective customers of your products.

As the founder of the neonixie-L; you were held to a high standard. After all, it was you who put forth the effort to contact and attract many techs and tinkers, following your establishing the original Yahoo list. Your guidance and support of the group helped in developing many new ideas that eventually found their way to both hardware and software. Some in one-off projects, and others into volume commercial products.  Mine were influenced as well. You were highly respected.

So, these forum members and others were always eager whenever when you had something to offer.

Many of the members understood that you had some financial difficulties. An expat living in a place where even reliable internet was a challenge at times.
I'm certain that if you had put out a request for financial help, that many members of the forum would have generously helped. No questions/strings attached.
And so I thought I was helping to a degree when you'd approached me to sell a new variation on your designs.
I'd been busy with life and work, and was inactive with anything neonixie related.  And later discovered there were already some delivery problems brewing.

At the same time I'd sent you money for your products, I had an opportunity surface to purchase a *large* quantity of B7971 nixie tubes.  I thought, hey -perhaps I could help Ray move a few hundred of his kits by working as a US based distributor for the nixie tubes.  I'll approach him after I receive the clocks, and tell him the good news. I was doing OK, it was a chunk of change, although eventually I'd recover it by selling them.

The clocks never arrived.  And now I was sitting on a few thousand B7971 tubes.   I was gutted.

Rumors circulated in the forum membership that you'd deleted some critical messages from members/customers who'd not received their kits.
Complaints began appearing on the forum. I posted in one too.  One early member even defended you, who coincidentally, had not sent you any money.
It was almost unbelievable that Ray, of all folks, would intentionally accept money and not deliver. Some of the members considered you a trusted friend. Myself included.

Other members took it even worse. Some felt betrayed. And it wasn't the money.

And then you surfaced again in '08 to sell a few clocks on ebay.  Wow.
A few more complaints were posted to neonixie-L about these ebay sales. Even as an absentee owner, the neonixie-L forum membership had been rotting to some degree because of your actions. A new victim complaint would still surface now and then.

Later, the list was moved to Google under new ownership. Some of the early original members/victims joined. They'd all moved on, although some are not as trusting as they once were.

It appears you opened some old wounds by coming here to solicit bids to sell your FLW / GeekKlok IP. And stating that you had lost your undelivered customer list (indicating those funds will not be used to make the customers whole) tends to suppress any empathy from the remaining forum members who held you in high regard.

I see Pete Hand had posted. That's a rare event. It's nice to know you did eventually ship his kit.
It could be difficult to sell a tainted product, even with a historical value. The new owner might have some 'splainin' to do if they surface here.

Best of Luck to you Ray.

Jeff

[Adam Jacobs]

I don't have any stake in the Ray story... Wasn't around back then,
never paid any money, never expected any product, etc.. The ensuing
drama is nothing more than an interesting story to me.. Entertainment,
as it were.

I'd like to second the recommendation that the FLW design be given to
the public. B7971's are rare as hen's teeth nowadays, but 16-segment
VFD's are commonplace. If there was a simple FLW design that had been
given to the public, some enterprising individuals could update it for
VFD use fairly trivially. I'm always for publishing IP once it ceases to
be commercially viable.

-Adam

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[Raymond Weisling]

I have tested the waters and find it infested with hungry gators and crocs. ;-)

So here is what I will do. I will give away all intellectual property for these several products and variations thereof. That includes:

1. PCB artwork in Gerber files for  the single board and the newer split boards (very few were made--more below on that).

2. PCB artwork files, if anybody wants them, but they are for the first desktop PCB CAD program issued in 1984 for Macintosh and still apparently supported as of about five years ago,(Douglas Electronics)

3. Source code for FLW, GKK and the GAM.

4. Object code in Motorola S19 files.

5. Several TKD case designs made from acrylic plastic that is laser cut to shape.

6. The user manuals and other buyer documentation in PDF form and in FreeHand 8 files (the originals from which the PDFs are made. It may not be easy to use the FH8 files, but the stuff is there.

7. Other assorted documents. I'm not sure what miscellaneous stuff is there, haven't looked for a while.

This Google group has no files section, so where to send it or upload it?

It will take me some time to sift through it and perhaps reorganize it and then ZIP/RAR it. I am not sure how much time I have, it could take a week or so.
------------------
I still have some parts, lots of Mill-Max socket pins (which fit many nixies) but these would have to go to someone and whoever gets them will have to pay for shipping and maybe a tad more. There are a few PCBs both large and split, but I am not at this point (today) going to do a detailed inventory. Let's toss this physical offer around. Any suggestions? It is likely that whoever wants this has no debt from me, so they get a gift of sorts. You may ask questions on what I think is there.

Thanks -- Ray

[Shane Ellis]

Good on you Ray!  One step closer to redemption.  Though I probably won't benefit from your products, I'm sure some in this group will.  Here's to a better future!

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[David Forbes]

On 12/6/12 12:29 AM, Raymond Weisling wrote:
> I have tested the waters and find it infested with hungry gators and
> crocs. ;-)
>
> So here is what I will do. I will give away all intellectual property

> for these several products and variations thereof. ...
>

Ray,

I'm glad that you came to this decision.

I've had one of your earliest FLW machines sitting on my mantel for the
last ten years. It's brought joy to my family and to scores of visitors
to my home over the years.

It's the only neon display thing in the house that I didn't design myself.

I'd be honored to host the design files on my nixiebunny.com server if
you're up for that.

--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ

[Instrument Resources of America]

Yes Ray the waters are filled with, as you put it, 'gators and
crocs' that YOU helped put there. HOWEVER, if you actually do come
through this time, and really do place ALL of the intellectual property
into the public domain. I would be tempted to contribute to an
established fund via Paypal $20.00 of my hard earned money to show
appreciation for that, as well as appreciation for the work you did
creating and then managing this wonderful site that we all use, learn
from, and enjoy. That fund, after let say thirty days, would be divided
as follows, fifty percent to you, the remaining fifty percent divided
and distributed equally between all of the folks here that never
received the products that they ordered from you. I would like to see
comments here from other members on this idea. The idea could be
modified as members here see fit and agree to, or trashed altogether.
Makes no difference to me personally. Some of the members here
definitely would NOT contribute and I can certainly understand that,
after being burned by you. Others could send something if they wanted
to, and could afford to, and I certainly do NOT speak for them. Proof
positive would have to be produced, that the intellectual property, ALL
of it, has been placed UNRETRACTABLY into the public domain, before I
would do this. I hope that your problems and issues reside, and that
there are better days ahead for you. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
to you, and everyone. Ira.

[Michel]

Hi Ray,

What's happened with your FLW clocks in the past has nothing to do
with me as I am just a newbie. I did follow this post for a few
reasons, 1, I initially felt sorry for you and I thought someone needs
to help this guy out, 2 after hearing what had happened before, it is
interesting to see what's on people's minds and how they express that.
3 I felt some relief that the gators and crocs were not only after me
as I had a similar experience when I started my nixie watch :-) 4 It
seems to develop with a good outcome, both for you and for the group.

I think the proposal from IRA is good, I'd also be interested in the
technical details of your clock. Just include some JPG files of the
schematics, that makes it easier to have a look at it. Once they're
up, I also have $20 for you shared as 50/50.

Michel

[Frank Bemelman]

I also have $20, shared as 0/100. 0 for Ray and 100 for the
others.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Michel
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:59 PM
To: neonixie-l
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: GeekKlok and FLW up for grabs

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[Quixotic Nixotic]

On 6 Dec 2012, at 07:29, Raymond Weisling wrote:

> 6. The user manuals and other buyer documentation in PDF form and in FreeHand 8 files (the originals from which the PDFs are made. It may not be easy to use the FH8 files, but the stuff is there.

I still use FreeHand MX on a legacy machine and I can read and convert FreeHand 8 files into other formats, should that prove helpful to anyone. FreeHand MX works up to, and including, Snow Leopard. It was, and still is, in many ways superior to Adobe Illustrator, but Adobe bought the product and killed it. Shame on Adobe.

I am really sorry Ray has encountered such a catalogue of misfortunes in his life. Equally I feel the pain of those whose orders were unfulfilled. As a co-moderator of this group today I can only sit firmly on the fence and urge that members remain polite and courteous to each other. Grievances should be taken off-list please.

Over the years this group has been an incredible think-tank of ideas and expertise and I personally would like to thank a number of members for their education of me, their generosity and their detailed help. I never thought I had enough ability to light up a nixie, let alone program a microprocessor yet, through the patient help and guidance of people in this group, I have lit nixies, got them cross-fading and done lots of really cool stuff with them.

May the warm glow of the neon soften all our hearts,

John S

[Frank Bemelman]

Hi John,

Pfff... another lecture, now from a co-moderator. It's about time for
a new group with a new name. Neonixie-unmoderated.

1) Ray insults quite a number of folks by calling them hungry alligators.
How polite is that?
2) Ray had some misfortune just like so many people. He kept taking orders,
kept taking money, while
out of stock and in deep trouble. Not for some weeks, but for a very long
time. There is a special
word to descibe such behaviour. Out of politeness, I will not use it.

BTW, Nick is right about the value or useability of the files. Only for
historical/sentimental reasons
it's nice to store them somewhere. The true value lies in the _idea_ of
forming 4-letter words. If you
have a predefined list of 4-letter words or an algorithm to create
pronounceable/meaningless words, then
you basically have everything.

Frank
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Quixotic Nixotic
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 10:47 PM
To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: GeekKlok and FLW up for grabs

[caliburgers]

Hi all!
I do not post much, but am a regular reader of the threads. As for Ray, and his past transgressions, and a victim, in my world, one a person does not supply a item after receiving monetary funds for that item, and willingly ignores your requests for refund, HE IS A THEIF! We all have problems! No Excuse!

Don S

Sent from my iPhone

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[Sean Voisen]

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Frank Bemelman <beme...@franktechniek.nl> wrote:

The true value lies in the _idea_ of forming 4-letter words. If you
have a predefined list of 4-letter words or an algorithm to create pronounceable/meaningless words, then
you basically have everything.

Regarding the FLW algorithm. This is something I've been pondering after coming across the University of South Florida Free Association Norms database during my grad school research. http://w3.usf.edu/FreeAssociation/ It's an amazing database with all sorts of potential uses (I used it as part of an AI system for jumping between semantically related concepts).

If one were to weed out all non-four-letter-words you'd essentially have a nice FLW database that also had some notion of semantic relation (albeit with many gaps). And if you were to extend your display beyond four letters (easily done with VFD displays) you could use the entire database.

I've written code to do basic breadth-first and depth-first traversal of the database, and I don't think it would be very hard (and maybe quite fun) to port to microcontroller and microSD card.

Sean

[Dekatron42]

There are many free four letter word webpages related to scrabble, just google some and You'll find them. It wouldn't be that hard to add them up.

 

/Martin

[Raymond Weisling]

Hi David,

Thank you for your kind and loving comments.

As one of the first charter members of our old Neonixie-L, I would be honoroed by your offer to host the files. Several others have offered but I grant the honor to you as an old friend, charter member, and one of the great talents in this group. I wish that I had had the bucks to get one of your watches -- a great design challenge well done.

I have quite a lot of files but together, but still checking for loose ends.

More later, thanks....

Ray

[Raymond Weisling]