More Boston streetcar questions
SPUI
by RTSPCC listing post-1940 abandonment dates), I've compiled a list of
old streetcar lines, matched with their numbers, sorted by abandonment
date, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-area_streetcar_lines . A
few notes and questions:
I know not all the trackless routes were streetcar lines; some were
converted from buses that were never streetcars (like the 96). I also
know some of the older routes were never assigned numbers, as they were
abandoned or closed before numbers were assigned.
What was the first bus line created (apparently created in 1922)?
When were map numbers assigned? Were any gaps left for proposed routes,
or was every number used at first? If the latter, what was the original
route of the 76 (the only one I can't find in the excellent post-1964
list at http://members.aol.com/eddanamta/busfiles/contents.pdf , as the
one there got its number in the 1960s)? I guess 98 would also count, as
Airport station only opened in 1952, and the 1925 map definitely shows
Everett and Malden routes. Or did 98 serve Logan from Maverick?
Conversely, were any routes (not counting special low-service routes)
not assigned numbers at first?
Were the numbers assigned in order by carhouse/garage, or just in a
general pattern?
What number did the Dudley-Subway line have? As bus service ended in
1942, it probably had one.
And, of course, any older abandonment/bustitution dates would be great.
I know I'm not going to have much luck with the early days.
And a specific question, about the 11 to Bay View. The map at
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:BERy_1925_map.jpg shows that the
tracks between Dorchester Avenue and Dorchester Street were gone. Was
the 11 rerouted to Andrew for its final years as a streetcar, or is the
map wrong?
Thanks for any information.
SPUI
> What was the first bus line created (apparently created in 1922)?
Just found this answer (
http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/orion5bjc/bttrivia.htm ) - it was the 64
Central Square-Oak Square (though it didn't reach Oak Square). But the
1925 map shows it to Harvard rather than Central - was this because the
River Street Bridge was closed, or did it begin from Harvard? And I
don't think the info there about the first trolley is right - wasn't the
first one in Allston or Brighton?
D. Kirkpatrick
SPUI <drsqu...@goinkmail.cmooom> wrote:
> Thanks to various old postings on this and other newsgroups (mainly one
> by RTSPCC listing post-1940 abandonment dates), I've compiled a list of
> old streetcar lines, matched with their numbers, sorted by abandonment
> date, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-area_streetcar_lines . A
> few notes and questions:
Have you ever given thought to joining the Boston Street Railway
Association?
That might prove fruitful. You would be immediately exposed to
members who would have a wealth of knowledge about this topic. You
could arrange to meet these people at meetings then set up separate
times to interview them and ask questions.
I think that might prove a better resource not to mention a more
timely one.
Just a thought.
rtspcc
SPUI wrote:
> I know not all the trackless routes were streetcar lines; some were
> converted from buses that were never streetcars (like the 96).
No, almost all of the lines that were trackless trolley lines were
streetcar lines. There were a few that went from streetcar to bus to
trackless (and then later back to bus). The only segment of a Boston
El/MTA trackless route that was never a Boston El streetcar line was
the segment on the 110 from Woodlawn to Broadway via Park Ave Revere.
Even that segment actually had an Eastern Mass carline part of the way
at one time. Route 96 (Medford Sq.-Harvard Sq.) was never a trackless,
it started as a bus line in 1925 (it only went to Mass Ave. at Day St.
before it was extended to Harvard Sq. in 1961 when bus to bus transfers
were eliminated)
I also
> know some of the older routes were never assigned numbers, as they
were
> abandoned or closed before numbers were assigned.
All routes had four digit numbers assigned to them, but these were
never used in public schedules or maps. They were for internal
accounting and operator picks.
>
> What was the first bus line created (apparently created in 1922)?
1922, a portion of todays Route 64 from Union Sq. Allston to
Brooks&Faneuil (Route # was 2400)
>
> When were map numbers assigned?
As I said, the real numbers for routes were four digit numbers not
displayed to the public. In 1936, the Boston El published its first
system map that assigned numbers to routes, and clearly showed the
beginning and ending point for each route. Before that, the only maps
published were like the 1925 one you link to. Those pre-1936 maps were
usually found in guide books, and were not really offered much as a
stand-alone map. For the first few issues of the system map style first
introduced in 1936, the numbers would change each time the map was
published, but still followed the basic pattern of low numbers in South
Boston and higher numbers in a clock-wise pattern towards Revere/East
Boston. It was only with the 1942 5th edition of the map that they
began to use the same numbers from map to map. However, the "map
numbers" were not used in public timetables before 1963. The public
timetable books issued in the 1950s and early 60s actually used another
set of numbers which did not match the map numbers. It was only in the
late 60s that bus destination signs began to display the "map numbers"
and it wasn't before 1969 that the internal numbers for routes were
changed from the four digit pattern (like 2400) to ones matching the
"map" numbers (like 64.0).
Were any gaps left for proposed routes,
> or was every number used at first? If the latter, what was the
original
> route of the 76 (the only one I can't find in the excellent post-1964
> list at http://members.aol.com/eddanamta/busfiles/contents.pdf , as
the
> one there got its number in the 1960s)?
Route 76 was the map number for the Harvard-Mass Ave line which was
merged with Route 47 Mass Ave.-Dudley in 1962 to form 47
Harvard-Dudley. The Route was later renumbered to Route 1.
I guess 98 would also count, as
> Airport station only opened in 1952, and the 1925 map definitely
shows
> Everett and Malden routes. Or did 98 serve Logan from Maverick?
Note that in 1925, most of the streetcar routes in
Everett/Chelsea/Revere were still part of the Eastern Mass. St. Ry. and
are not shown on the 1925 map. The Boston El purchased the Chelsea
Div. of the Eastern Mass in 1936 and then integrated these routes into
their system
In the 1942 map, Route 98 was assigned to the Medford Sq.-Fellsway via
Riverside Ave. bus (part of today's Route 134). In 1943, Route 98 was
merged with Route 108 (Linden-Avon & Quincy) to form 108 Medford
Sq.-Linden (parts of today's Routes 134 and 108). This freed up the
Route 98 slot, which was then available later for the Airport route.
>
> Conversely, were any routes (not counting special low-service routes)
> not assigned numbers at first?
>
Everything had an internal number, even school routes and Sunday church
buses.
> Were the numbers assigned in order by carhouse/garage, or just in a
> general pattern?
The four digit internal numbers were assigned by carhouse/garage,
although later when bus routes were sometimes transferred from one
garage to another, they got sloppy and didn't always change the
internal number. The map numbers, as I said, were originally just
following a low to high clock-wise pattern.
>
> What number did the Dudley-Subway line have? As bus service ended in
> 1942, it probably had one.
The Dudley-North Station streetcar and the replacement Dudley-Dover &
Tremont bus route had a map number of 41 in the first three editions of
the map, and then 48 on the 1942 map. 48 was reused in 1945 when the
short and infrequent Northampton-Dover via Albany St. industrial route
was started.
>
> And, of course, any older abandonment/bustitution dates would be
great.
> I know I'm not going to have much luck with the early days.
You are asking for a book's worth of information in a usenet post. The
Motor Bus Society has been working on an early history of the Boston
El/MTA bus conversions for several years to be published in "Motor
Coach Age". Perhaps they will finish it someday.
>
> And a specific question, about the 11 to Bay View. The map at
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:BERy_1925_map.jpg shows that
the
> tracks between Dorchester Avenue and Dorchester Street were gone. Was
> the 11 rerouted to Andrew for its final years as a streetcar, or is
the
> map wrong?
>
The streetcar route went Dorchester St. to Broadway to Dorchester Ave.
The 7th St. portion of the route only began new as a bus route when the
remainder of the route was converted to bus in 1929. Not every bus
conversion followed the exact routing of the streetcar line replaced,
as the flexibility of buses provide the option to introduce new service
patterns.
> Thanks for any information.
SPUI
> Have you ever given thought to joining the Boston Street Railway
> Association?
>
> That might prove fruitful. You would be immediately exposed to
> members who would have a wealth of knowledge about this topic. You
> could arrange to meet these people at meetings then set up separate
> times to interview them and ask questions.
>
> I think that might prove a better resource not to mention a more
> timely one.
>
> Just a thought.
If I ever move back to the Boston area, I probably will.
rtspcc
SPUI wrote:
> SPUI wrote:
> > What was the first bus line created (apparently created in 1922)?
>
> Just found this answer (
> http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/orion5bjc/bttrivia.htm ) - it was the 64
> Central Square-Oak Square (though it didn't reach Oak Square). But
the
> 1925 map shows it to Harvard rather than Central - was this because
the
> River Street Bridge was closed, or did it begin from Harvard?
The route on the 1925 map going through Harvard was the Union Sq.
Allston-Union Sq. Somerville bus (part of today's 86 and 66). The 1925
map makes it look like a through route to faneuil, but it wasn't. The
River St bridge was indeed out of commision at the time. A Union
Sq.-Central bus did begin running in 1926 when the bridge was restored,
but it was only in 1933 that the Faneuil-Union Sq. and Union
Sq.-Central routes were nerged.
And I
> don't think the info there about the first trolley is right - wasn't
the
> first one in Allston or Brighton?
The first electrified route was Allston to Park Sq. via Harvard Ave.,
Harvard St. , Beacon St., Mass Ave., and Boylston.
SPUI
>
> The streetcar route went Dorchester St. to Broadway to Dorchester Ave.
> The 7th St. portion of the route only began new as a bus route when the
> remainder of the route was converted to bus in 1929. Not every bus
> conversion followed the exact routing of the streetcar line replaced,
> as the flexibility of buses provide the option to introduce new service
> patterns.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand this. The 11 terminated at Broadway
station middle level until 1919 (yes, I know using the numbers is a bit
of an anachronism); did it (heading westbound) turn south on Dorchester
Avenue and make a sharp turn into the tunnel?
rtspcc
The Bay View line did at one time operate between Dorchester St. and
Broadway via w 9th, E St., 6th St., C St. W 4th, to Dorchester Ave.
There were very restrictive clearances along this line. By 1925, the
line was alterted to operate the larger new cars (type 5s) on the line.
The bus replacement parially restored part of the original streetcar
route.
D. Kirkpatrick
SPUI <drsqu...@goinkmail.cmooom> wrote:
> If I ever move back to the Boston area, I probably will.
I have a friend living in the FL panhandle who is a member.
Talks to others by e-mail all the time.
Ron Young
news:kCuje.39491$w15....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Thanks to various old postings on this and other newsgroups (mainly one by
> RTSPCC listing post-1940 abandonment dates), I've compiled a list of old
> streetcar lines, matched with their numbers, sorted by abandonment date,
> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-area_streetcar_lines .
> And, of course, any older abandonment/bustitution dates would be great. I
> know I'm not going to have much luck with the early days.
> Thanks for any information.
That's a nice contribution to wikipedia.
What is now the 74/75 ran as a streetcar along the path of the 73 to Grove
St
in Belmont, continuing via Bright Rd and Concord Ave to Belmont Center.
The 74 bus was implemented no later than when the 73 street cars were
converted to trackless trolleys.
A Belmont town history states theBoston Elevated Railway opened a trolley
line
from Park St to Waverley, Oct 1, 1998, and an extension to Belmont Center
was
opened in 1906, but replaced by buses 22 years later.
Concerning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/73_%28MBTA_bus%29#73
The 73 streetcar had an alternate intermediate turnaround in Cushing Sq at
Common St.
After the conversion to trackless trolley, this turnaround was moved to
Benton Sq, at
the Trapelo Rd/Belmont St. intersection. 73 Benton's were still being
operated in the 1970s.
Recently, the turnaround is only used by training runs. The turnaround was
preserved
when the Benton Sq intersection was reconfigured.
For a while, during the construction of the Red Line Alewife extension
through Harvard Sq,
the 71 and 73 bypassed Mt Auburn St below Aberdeen Ave and coopted the route
of the 72,
terminating on Cambridge Common at the corner of Mass. Ave. and Garden St.
I am under the impression the current 72 was never a streetcar route.
That section of Concord Ave and Huron Ave in Cambridge are much narrower
than the abandoned
section of streetcar route of Grove St, Bright Rd, and Concord Ave in
Belmont.
SPUI
Ron Young wrote:
>
> What is now the 74/75 ran as a streetcar along the path of the 73 to Grove
> St
> in Belmont, continuing via Bright Rd and Concord Ave to Belmont Center.
> The 74 bus was implemented no later than when the 73 street cars were
> converted to trackless trolleys.
>
> A Belmont town history states theBoston Elevated Railway opened a trolley
> line
> from Park St to Waverley, Oct 1, 1998, and an extension to Belmont Center
> was
> opened in 1906, but replaced by buses 22 years later.
I'm assuming that should be 1898?
>
> I am under the impression the current 72 was never a streetcar route.
> That section of Concord Ave and Huron Ave in Cambridge are much narrower
> than the abandoned
> section of streetcar route of Grove St, Bright Rd, and Concord Ave in
> Belmont.
The 72 streetcar route (as well as the spur to Belmont) is shown on
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:BERy_1925_map.jpg .
Ron Young
"SPUI" <drsqu...@goinkmail.cmooom> wrote in message
> Thanks for the information.
>
> Ron Young wrote:
>>
>> What is now the 74/75 ran as a streetcar along the path of the 73 to
>> Grove St
>> in Belmont, continuing via Bright Rd and Concord Ave to Belmont Center.
>> The 74 bus was implemented no later than when the 73 street cars were
>> converted to trackless trolleys.
>>
>> A Belmont town history states theBoston Elevated Railway opened a trolley
>> line
>> from Park St to Waverley, Oct 1, 1998, and an extension to Belmont Center
>> was
>> opened in 1906, but replaced by buses 22 years later.
>
> I'm assuming that should be 1898?
yes
>> I am under the impression the current 72 was never a streetcar route.
>> That section of Concord Ave and Huron Ave in Cambridge are much narrower
>> than the abandoned
>> section of streetcar route of Grove St, Bright Rd, and Concord Ave in
>> Belmont.
>
> The 72 streetcar route (as well as the spur to Belmont) is shown on
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:BERy_1925_map.jpg .
Must have been shorter streetcars on the old 72.
AllstonPar...@hotmail.com
> "SPUI" <drsqu...@goinkmail.cmooom> wrote:
> > Ron Young wrote:
> >> I am under the impression the current 72 was never a streetcar route.
> >> That section of Concord Ave and Huron Ave in Cambridge are much narrower
> >> than the abandoned
> >> section of streetcar route of Grove St, Bright Rd, and Concord Ave in
> >> Belmont.
> >
> > The 72 streetcar route (as well as the spur to Belmont) is shown on
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:BERy_1925_map.jpg .
>
> Must have been shorter streetcars on the old 72.
Why? Huron Avenue southwest of Concord Avenue is very wide for a
Cambridge street (especially compared to the section on the other side
of Concord Ave) -- each direction now has a travel lane, a bike lane,
and parallel parking. And the relevant corner of Concord and Huron has
a large turning radius.
-Apr