Is Zen of Gautama ? (04)
TC Nguyen
What do the teacher expect in students from their answers ?
If you are an expert in a field, the answer of a student make you know
his degree of undesrtanding in this field,
that's nothing unusual. Same thing with zen.
Take a look at this anecdote :
Su( Nan Ch'uan P'u Yuan ) asked Huang Po : - Where do you go ? ( Po )
said : - To pick some lettuce. Su said : -
With what do you pick ? Huang Po raised his knife. Su ( Su+ ) said : -
Only resolve to be guest, not to be host.
Then he teached Huang Po :
- If search for ( it ), ( you are) not able to find ( it ).
( Ts'u Tang Chi, TC Nguyen tr. )
Po 's answer is of the mundane life, since Nan Ch'uan tried to teach him
the conversation in another sphere.
That's the method of Zen.
Now we know that, from Bodhidharma, this method is milder. Later, it
developed to full flower, but at the same
time it's the heel of Achille (?), it killed Zen. ( see the seeds of
decadence of Zen school ).
That 's the method, and the way real zen teachers knew the achievement
of his student.
Sphere
>
> Iz04
>
> What do the teacher expect in students from their answers ?
"does"
> If you are an expert in a field, the answer of a student make you know
"makes" but "lets" may be better.
> his degree of undesrtanding in this field,
> that's nothing unusual. Same thing with zen.
"Same with Zen."
> Take a look at this anecdote :
"antidote:"
> Su( Nan Ch'uan P'u Yuan ) asked Huang Po : - Where do you go ? ( Po )
> said : - To pick some lettuce. Su said : -
> With what do you pick ? Huang Po raised his knife. Su ( Su+ ) said : -
> Only resolve to be guest, not to be host.
Would "not the host" work? It's better English and not much
different.
> Then he teached Huang Po :
"taught"
> - If search for ( it ), ( you are) not able to find ( it ).
Less literal: "If you seek, you cannot find."
(Note that there is a Christian: If you seek then you shall find.)
> ( Ts'u Tang Chi, TC Nguyen tr. )
>
> Po 's answer is of the mundane life, since Nan Ch'uan tried to teach him
I'd go with "answer is mundane"
> the conversation in another sphere.
> That's the method of Zen.
>
> Now we know that, from Bodhidharma, this method is milder. Later, it
> developed to full flower, but at the same
> time it's the heel of Achille (?), it killed Zen. ( see the seeds of
"Achilles' heel"
No kidding -- New Age Maddness....
> decadence of Zen school ).
>
> That 's the method, and the way real zen teachers knew the achievement
> of his student.
Sphere.
--
alt.buddha.short.fat.guy :
Transmitting the Darma through osmosis. -- Chris Dadds
Petter Mårtensson
Sphere wrote
>
> No kidding -- New Age Maddness....
>
New Age Maddness for the next millenium?
Zen Monk for president?
We got enough nihilists in the world as it is.
Buddha was one sad bastard, I pity the boy.
Illumination might come from inside, but not through accepting life as
terrible.
Life isn't just pain.
I like Zen.
Zen is nicer, but still controlled by a bunch of self-obsessed bastards
that think that they have attained "illumination" and that they know all
the answers.
Do you really think a zen master knows the answers to all the riddles?
What's the sound of one hand clapping?
*raises middle finger*
This.
Don't get me wrong thought.
It's the same thing with all religions. Controlled by fat-arsed people who
think they are more worth than you or me.
I prefer laymen.
--
I know I believe in nothing but it is my nothing
/Petter Mårtensson
Aka Pythagore Anonymous of the Cabal of Turbulent Discord
ICQ UIN: 3750586
Homepage: http://fisherqueen.ml.org
and
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Download the Liber Discordia - your best guide
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(Windows 3.11 or better required)
BA
> TC Nguyen wrote:
> > Take a look at this anecdote :
>
> "antidote:"
>
BA: No, it's an 'anecdote' (story), not an 'antidote' (cure for poison)
>
> > Su( Nan Ch'uan P'u Yuan ) asked Huang Po : - Where do you go ? ( Po )
> > said : - To pick some lettuce. Su said : -
> > With what do you pick ? Huang Po raised his knife. Su ( Su+ ) said : -
> > Only resolve to be guest, not to be host.
>
> Would "not the host" work? It's better English and not much
> different.
>
> > Then he teached Huang Po :
>
> "taught"
>
> > - If search for ( it ), ( you are) not able to find ( it ).
>
> Less literal: "If you seek, you cannot find."
> (Note that there is a Christian: If you seek then you shall find.)
>
BA: Actually, I think that Nan Ch'uan P'u Yuan's 'If you look for it, you
won't be able to find it' and Jesus' 'Seek and you shall find' are not in
conflict. They are both true.
>
>
> > ( Ts'u Tang Chi, TC Nguyen tr. )
> >
> > Po 's answer is of the mundane life, since Nan Ch'uan tried to teach him
>
> I'd go with "answer is mundane"
>
> > the conversation in another sphere.
> > That's the method of Zen.
> >
Could someone provide some commentary for this anecdote? I can't make heads
or tails of it.
- BA
TC Nguyen
> It's the same thing with all religions. Controlled by fat-arsed people who
> think they are more worth than you or me.
> I prefer laymen.
>
> --
If not by monks and temples, who will know there is a thing called
budðhism ?
Petter Mårtensson
TC Nguyen asked
>
> If not by monks and temples, who will know there is a thing called
> budðhism ?
>
I think we will be quite alright without them.
You call yourself a buddhist?
Then let the world know that you are one, and the monks will be obsolete.
Hail Eris.
Sphere
>
> TC Nguyen asked
> >
> > If not by monks and temples, who will know there is a thing called
> >
>
> I think we will be quite alright without them.
> You call yourself a buddhist?
> Then let the world know that you are one, and the monks will be obsolete.
> Hail Eris.
>
On a bright and cheery day all things preach the dharma,
but in the dark times of terror and unrest the teaching
will be hidden and only whispered from one monk to the
next.
thu...@bu.edu
Sphere wrote:
> Petter Mårtensson wrote:
> >
> > TC Nguyen asked
> > >
> > > If not by monks and temples, who will know there is a thing called
> > > budðhism ?
> > >
> >
> > I think we will be quite alright without them.
> > You call yourself a buddhist?
> > Then let the world know that you are one, and the monks will be obsolete.
> > Hail Eris.
> >
>
> On a bright and cheery day all things preach the dharma, but in the dark
> times of terror and unrest the teaching will be hidden and only whispered
> from one monk to the next.
>
> Sphere.
After Vietnam was reunified in 1975, the Communist government proclaimed a
policy of free exploration between North and South, and many people took
advantage of that to visit the other half of the country. A Buddhist monk,
wearing the saffron Therevada robe, went from the South to Hanoi, where
Buddhism had been almost totally wiped out by the Communists. A man saw him,
pulled him aside, showed him a tiny hole in the wall near the ceiling in his
apartment, and showed him a tiny Buddha statue which had been hidden there all
these years.
Tang Huyen
Sphere
Given the Dark Age of Europe, when
almost all culture and learning was
wiped from the face of the contenent,
it is a shame that most westerners
do not understand the true value of
the monestary.
Terror and chaos,
Books left rotting in the street --
More precious than lives.
Sphere.
(I'd recommend the SF book "A Canticle of
Lebowitz" as a very good allegory on the
subject.)
luc...@usa.net
"Petter Mårtensson" <demon...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sphere wrote
> >
> > No kidding -- New Age Maddness....
> >
>
> New Age Maddness for the next millenium?
> Zen Monk for president?
>
> We got enough nihilists in the world as it is.
> Buddha was one sad bastard, I pity the boy.
Buddhism isn't nihilism.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Sphere
> luc...@usa.net wrote
> >
> > Buddhism isn't nihilism.
> >
>
> I would call it "spiritual nihilism".
> Everything is suffering?
> I would call that a form of nihilism.
"Suffering" is a very bad translation,
"stress" is somewhat better. Rant
at the eighteenth century Brits, not
Siddhartha.
You might also figure out what is
being said before comenting.
Sphere.
---
Tang Huyen
> luc...@usa.net wrote
> >
> > Buddhism isn't nihilism.
> >
>
> I would call it "spiritual nihilism". Everything is suffering? I would
> call that a form of nihilism.
*If* the Buddha taught that "everything is suffering," that would indeed
by a form of spiritual nihilism. But he does *not* teach any such thing.
He teaches that "all compounded/composition is suffering," which is
something quite different. The awakened (buddha) no longer composes (i.
e., no longer composes compositions) and enjoys the peace and quiet of
non-mentation, in which he no longer runs an internal Muzak on himself.
At Chinese Madhyama-Agama, 191, 738a, Chinese Samyukta-Agama, 485, 124b,
MN, I, 454 (66), III, 110 (140), Harivarman, Tattva-siddhi, T, 32, 1646,
353c1-2, the Buddha speaks of the four joys: joy of desirelessness, joy
of aloofness, joy of calm, joy of awakening (nekkhama-sukha,
paviveka-sukha, upasama-sukha, sambodha-sukha). The awakened person is
not a stuck-up wretch, he is a flowing, happy person. He has no hangup,
as hangups belong to compositions. He makes off like a bandit.
Tang Huyen
Ali Hassan
Petter Mårtensson
luc...@usa.net wrote
>
> Buddhism isn't nihilism.
>
I would call it "spiritual nihilism".
Everything is suffering?
I would call that a form of nihilism.
tri...@hotmail.com
Sphere <Spher...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> Petter Mårtensson wrote:
> > luc...@usa.net wrote
> > >
> > > Buddhism isn't nihilism.
> > >
> >
> > I would call it "spiritual nihilism".
> > Everything is suffering?
> > I would call that a form of nihilism.
IMHO, the first noble truth translates much MUCH better as:
"In all Samsaric phenomenon: Shit happens"
the second is
"Whether it's good shit or bad shit, it all passes."
the third
well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
I've always felt that "Emptiness" leans too close to depressiveness and is
far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
To illustrate the sense of spaciousness I find that the reference from
art (drawing, painting, sculpture, flower arranging etc) to "Negative space"
comes fairly close in feeling.
contemplating emptiness,
but only finding it, all filled up
with space.
(In Nirvana, shit doesn't stink...)
> "Suffering" is a very bad translation,
> "stress" is somewhat better. Rant
> at the eighteenth century Brits, not
> Siddhartha.
Sphere's on target there, but =) stand back folks... the Vajrayana and the
Therevadan are agreeing here.
> You might also figure out what is
> being said before comenting.
YMMV, but I find that there's quite a bit of nonsense,bad translations and
misunderstanding based on them, (and based on what will bring in cash or make
a statement that fits a preconcieved notion) labled "Buddhism".
Buddhism is neither "passive" nor "nihilistic" nor nearly what some New Age
marketing schemes would have it be.
Determinations of what it is based on "so and so said", or "I heard" or...
"everyone knows" are unreliable. Determinations based on a view from the
outside, and far away have a different perspective from inside or close up.
Did I miss anything important?
Sphere
> In article <3675BA06...@my-dejanews.com>,
> Sphere <Spher...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > Petter Mårtensson wrote:
> > > luc...@usa.net wrote
> > > >
> > > > Buddhism isn't nihilism.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I would call it "spiritual nihilism".
> > > Everything is suffering?
> > > I would call that a form of nihilism.
>
> IMHO, the first noble truth translates much MUCH better as:
>
> "In all Samsaric phenomenon: Shit happens"
Good.
> the second is
> "Whether it's good shit or bad shit, it all passes."
Good.
> the third
> well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
> more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
How about "Openness"? This would make it
easier for me to bring in the open systems
from general systems theory.
> I've always felt that "Emptiness" leans too close to depressiveness and is
> far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
Yeah. It took me quite a while to
get hold of the way emptiness was
being used.
> To illustrate the sense of spaciousness I find that the reference from
> art (drawing, painting, sculpture, flower arranging etc) to "Negative space"
> comes fairly close in feeling.
>
> contemplating emptiness,
> but only finding it, all filled up
> with space.
>
> (In Nirvana, shit doesn't stink...)
>
> > "Suffering" is a very bad translation,
> > "stress" is somewhat better. Rant
> > at the eighteenth century Brits, not
> > Siddhartha.
>
> Sphere's on target there, but =) stand back folks... the Vajrayana and the
> Therevadan are agreeing here.
Although I am thinking of joining an
Insight Meditation center, I prefer to
think of myself as a primative Buddhist.
From what I've heard of the Abhidhama
there's stuff in there'd make my blood
boil.
I'm not good at that visulization
stuff. Everything comes out all
geometric.
> > You might also figure out what is
> > being said before comenting.
>
> YMMV, but I find that there's quite a bit of nonsense,bad translations and
> misunderstanding based on them, (and based on what will bring in cash or make
> a statement that fits a preconcieved notion) labled "Buddhism".
>
> Buddhism is neither "passive" nor "nihilistic" nor nearly what some New Age
> marketing schemes would have it be.
>
> Determinations of what it is based on "so and so said", or "I heard" or...
> "everyone knows" are unreliable. Determinations based on a view from the
> outside, and far away have a different perspective from inside or close up.
>
> Did I miss anything important?
Don't think so.
Sphere.
[There's no top to openness.
There's no bottom to openness.
There's only interaction.]
Chris__Dadds
<Spher...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>tri...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> the third
>> well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
>> more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
>
>
>How about "Openness"? This would make it
>easier for me to bring in the open systems
>from general systems theory.
>
>
>> I've always felt that "Emptiness" leans too close to depressiveness and is
>> far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
>
>Yeah. It took me quite a while to
>get hold of the way emptiness was
>being used.
>
>> To illustrate the sense of spaciousness I find that the reference from
>> art (drawing, painting, sculpture, flower arranging etc) to "Negative space"
>> comes fairly close in feeling.
I'd apreciate a few more paragraphs on how the word "emptyness" is
being used.
Chris
Sphere
Like a Woodie Allen movie...
Sphere.
Jigme Dorje
trinle wrote
IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much more accurately by "Spaciousness"
rather than "Emptiness".
far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
(drawing, painting, sculpture, flower arranging etc) to "Negative space"
comes fairly close in feeling.
Jigme>That too is reification. I prefer to allow the phrase "empty of
inherent existence" to stand quite on its own, avoiding the temptation to
impute connotation or denotation.
>> "Suffering" is a very bad translation,
>> "stress" is somewhat better. Rant
>> at the eighteenth century Brits, not
>> Siddhartha.
>
>Sphere's on target there, but =) stand back folks... the Vajrayana and the
>Therevadan are agreeing here.
Jigme>I find there is more to agree than disagree about...but whatever
happened to "dissatisfactoriness"? Is that not a more faithful translation
of the term dukka in the context of "all compounded/composition is dukka" ?
Jigme Dorje
Sphere(?) wrote:
>I prefer to think of myself as a primative Buddhist.
>From what I've heard of the Abhidhama
>there's stuff in there'd make my blood boil.
>I'm not good at that visulization
>stuff. Everything comes out all
>geometric.
Jigme>There is quite a bit of visualization in those words, Sphere!
Tang Huyen
Jigme Dorje wrote:
> trinle wrote
> IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much more accurately by "Spaciousness"
> rather than "Emptiness".
> I've always felt that "Emptiness" leans too close to depressiveness and is
> far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
> To illustrate the sense of spaciousness I find that the reference from art
> (drawing, painting, sculpture, flower arranging etc) to "Negative space"
> comes fairly close in feeling.
>
> Jigme>That too is reification. I prefer to allow the phrase "empty of
> inherent existence" to stand quite on its own, avoiding the temptation to
> impute connotation or denotation.
Very good, Jigme. At the unreflected level of daily, language-based practice
(vyahara, vyavahara), we consciously and unconsciously impute, by determining
judgement, essence (sva-bhava) to language-delimited objects, and in a second
moment we use reflecting judgement to realize that since they are produced in
causal dependence (pratitya-samutpada), they are deprived of essense
(sva-bhavena sunya). Thus while essence is a first-level concept, emptiness of
essence (sva-bhavena sunyata) is a second-level concept, and is not anything
other than another way of saying that things are arisen in causal dependence. It
is simply and purely a way of setting one’s thinking to order, so as to accord
with the flowing reality which is not congealed by language and language-imputed
essence, it is merely a means (upaya) for attaining to ultimate reality
(paramartha), which is the sensible reality received in the quiescence of all
proliferation (prapańcopasama), and upon reaching the latter, which is the end,
all language, including the word and notion sunya and all associated words and
notions, is delivered.
Bimal Krishna Matilal, "Madhyamika," 224: "The word sunya, unlike the
arithmetical symbol for cipher, is always a relative term in the Madhyamika
writings. It is said that a bhava is sunya, i. e. ‘devoid’ of something, i. e.
its svabhava. Nothing is said to be sunya or ‘zero’ per se." What he says can be
slightly re-phrased as follows: The word sunya "devoid of" is always a relative
(syncategorematic) term, it is a shorthand for a reflecting judgement, namely
that a bhava is sunya, i. e., "devoid" of something, i. e., of its svabhava.
Nothing is said to be sunya "empty" (as a categorematic term) per se,
simpliciter, in a determining judgement, because that would precisely defeat the
purpose of denying independent existence.
Tang Huyen
Sphere
;)
luc...@usa.net
"Petter Mårtensson" <demon...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
>
> luc...@usa.net wrote
> >
> > Buddhism isn't nihilism.
> >
>
> I would call it "spiritual nihilism".
> Everything is suffering?
> I would call that a form of nihilism.
Everything is suffering from their own ignorance.
Because this is so they can free themselves through their own efforts.
The four Noble Truths are kind of package deal. If one focuses on only part
then the teaching comes out of context.
My coffee cup is empty. I'm not depressed because after I get done typing
this stuff i'll go fill it fresh coffee. I like my coffee cup because I can
keep filling its emptiness with whatever quenches my thirst or nourishes my
body or sometimes both. My coffee cup can be empty without being non-existent
or nihlistic.
Buddhism is not nihilism.
luc...@usa.net
"Jigme Dorje" <stev...@magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>
> Jigme>I find there is more to agree than disagree about...but whatever
> happened to "dissatisfactoriness"? Is that not a more faithful translation
> of the term dukka in the context of "all compounded/composition is dukka" ?
>
>
That's my favorite translation of the word also.
Eugene Wyatt
> Buddhism is not nihilism.
No, Buddhism is not nihilism. But Buddhism is very nihilistic. Let's see
how,
Here are the basic definitions of "nihilism" from _The American Heritage®
Dictionary of the English Language_ on Ms. Bookshelf.
"1. Philosophy.
a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.
b. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be
known or communicated."
a. Buddhism is nihilistic because existence is not a quality of
impermanence and all things are impermanent.
b. Buddhism is nihilistic because only language can be known and
communicated. Language is delusive, it can only refer exactly to itself;
it can only communicate itself. Language contains all value and it is
baseless, it is the seat of delusion
"2. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a
willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious
belief."
Buddhism is nihilistic in that it does reject and repudiate all moral and
religious value, it even rejects its own value in its advice to 'stream
crossers' to jettison the raft of belief and value that got you to the
other side.
Yes, Buddhism is not nihilism. And for all you Dogenists out there,
Buddhism is Buddhism and Nihilism is nihilism. Both are delusive and
delusion does not exist, it is only believed in, or not believed in.
Either position on delusion is in itself delusive as it is a belief. Round
and round we go in the language circus. You see nothing *is* anything else
it can only *be like* something else, that doesn't exist either. The best
thing to do is to laugh and be kind.
Eugene
Jigme Dorje
Eugene Wyatt
Yes, Buddhism is not nihilism. And for all you Dogenists out there,
Buddhism is Buddhism and Nihilism is nihilism. Both are delusive and
delusion does not exist, it is only believed in, or not believed in.
>Either position on delusion is in itself delusive as it is a belief. Round
and round we go in the language circus. You see nothing *is* anything else
it can only *be like* something else, that doesn't exist either. The best
thing to do is to laugh and be kind.
Eugene,
Do you mean kindness in a passive or active sense? How does this relate to
Boddhicitta? Can there be kindness without wisdom? Is the realization of
emptiness required for genuine compassion to take root? Or do we fake it
until or mind can practice kindness in the absence of self-cherishing?
Eugene Wyatt
>
> Eugene Wyatt
> Yes, Buddhism is not nihilism. And for all you Dogenists out there,
> Buddhism is Buddhism and Nihilism is nihilism. Both are delusive and
> delusion does not exist, it is only believed in, or not believed in.
> >Either position on delusion is in itself delusive as it is a belief. Round
> and round we go in the language circus. You see nothing *is* anything else
> it can only *be like* something else, that doesn't exist either. The best
> thing to do is to laugh and be kind.
>
> Eugene,
> Do you mean kindness in a passive or active sense?
Me to you, you to me.
> How does this relate to
> Boddhicitta?
What is Bodhicitta without kindness.
> Can there be kindness without wisdom?
Kindness is wisdom.
> Is the realization of
> emptiness required for genuine compassion to take root?
Nothing is required.
> Or do we fake it
> until our mind can practice kindness in the absence of self-cherishing?
We will go in and out of this "absense", so when we are out, it is best to
"fake it"; this becomes the practice of kindness to ourselves and this is
what the laughter is for. <g>
Eugene
David Oller
Well, how was sesshin?
David
Eugene Wyatt wrote in message ...
Eugene Wyatt
>
> Well, how was sesshin?
Great. I did a special sesshin, enjoying time with a darling woman,
drinking Beaujolais Nouveau, talking, touching, you know...the best kind of
Zen, the kind that's made up as you go along. <g>
Maybe we do Shimano and Dai Bosatsu next time.
Eugene
Heart Happy
>
> David Oller writes...
> >
> > Well, how was sesshin?
>
> Great. I did a special sesshin, enjoying time with a darling woman,
> drinking Beaujolais Nouveau, talking, touching, you know...the best kind of
> Zen, the kind that's made up as you go along. <g>
>
***************
ROTFL
I think it's the only kind Eugene! :-)
--
Happy Days,
Judi
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/morea.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/members.html
tri...@hotmail.com
> >
> > "In all Samsaric phenomenon: Shit happens"
>
> Good.
>
> > the second is
> > "Whether it's good shit or bad shit, it all passes."
>
> Good.
>
> > well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
> > more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
>
> easier for me to bring in the open systems
> from general systems theory.
>
I would suppose general systems theory could be hauled in too.
Just the same "openness" runs a similar hazard as "emptiness" except to the
New Age end of the spectrum... And like the people who want it to mean
Nihilism, it may lead to people doing "Any ol' shit" and calling it
Buddhism...
> Yeah. It took me quite a while to
> get hold of the way emptiness was
> being used.
Yep, & I ran into having to make a collalary between "Shunyata" and "negative
space"... and going semi crazy in a drawing class. (see I was drawing this
tree by drawing it's spaces... and then I heard this bell and... well, it's
not nearly as good a story as the time I sliced my finger at 1 am cutting
matt board for a photo course...)
> Although I am thinking of joining an
> Insight Meditation center, I prefer to
> think of myself as a primative Buddhist.
Ohhh we have one here in town, pretty nice folks, and we even
have a couple of folks in the Ratnashri group (aka "Milwaukee Sangha")
that also sit with them.
sooo what do primative Buddhists do? run around nearly naked in the woods?
beat on drums?
> From what I've heard of the Abhidhama
> there's stuff in there'd make my blood
> boil.
>
> I'm not good at that visulization
> stuff. Everything comes out all
> geometric.
well, I kinda need the visual stuff... even though I don't think I've got
it exactly right yet.
geometric should be perfectly ok, provided that's how your perception works.
underlying the drawings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in a complicated but
beautiful geometry as well.
> > a statement that fits a preconcieved notion) labled "Buddhism".
> >
> > Buddhism is neither "passive" nor "nihilistic" nor nearly what some New Age
> > marketing schemes would have it be.
> >
> > Determinations of what it is based on "so and so said", or "I heard" or...
> > "everyone knows" are unreliable. Determinations based on a view from the
> > outside, and far away have a different perspective from inside or close up.
> >
> > Did I miss anything important?
>
> Don't think so.
Where's that Toshu? he's generally pretty handy for filling in any gaps I've
left...
ABSFG: transmitting the Dharma through chocolate.
=)
Sphere
>
> In article <3675EE02...@my-dejanews.com>,
> Sphere <Spher...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > tri...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > IMHO, the first noble truth translates much MUCH better as:
> > >
> > > "In all Samsaric phenomenon: Shit happens"
> >
> > Good.
> >
> > > the second is
> > > "Whether it's good shit or bad shit, it all passes."
> >
> > Good.
> >
> > > the third
> > > well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
> > > more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
> >
> > How about "Openness"? This would make it
> > easier for me to bring in the open systems
> > from general systems theory.
> >
> well, if "Interdimensional, transtemporal, subatomic Buddhas" are acceptable
> I would suppose general systems theory could be hauled in too.
I'm not too sure about interdimensional and
transtemporal, but subatomic Buddhas sound
good -- they're empty too.
> Just the same "openness" runs a similar hazard as "emptiness" except to the
> New Age end of the spectrum... And like the people who want it to mean
> Nihilism, it may lead to people doing "Any ol' shit" and calling it
> Buddhism...
Any word is going to get towed away along
with our Karma anyway...
> > Yeah. It took me quite a while to
> > get hold of the way emptiness was
> > being used.
>
> Yep, & I ran into having to make a collalary between "Shunyata" and "negative
> space"... and going semi crazy in a drawing class. (see I was drawing this
> tree by drawing it's spaces... and then I heard this bell and... well, it's
> not nearly as good a story as the time I sliced my finger at 1 am cutting
> matt board for a photo course...)
Oooo. Figure and ground. Great practice.
I particularly like seeing both the table
and the two faces at the same time. Really
screws up the little beastie in me which
likes to see things one way at a time.
> > Although I am thinking of joining an
> > Insight Meditation center, I prefer to
> > think of myself as a primative Buddhist.
>
> Ohhh we have one here in town, pretty nice folks, and we even
> have a couple of folks in the Ratnashri group (aka "Milwaukee Sangha")
> that also sit with them.
CIMC in Cambridge MA. Went there a couple
of weeks ago for a dharma talk and to see
John Kahila (did I spell that right?).
Planning to go again to see Jack Kornfield
on Jan 6. After that, well, what will be
will be.
> sooo what do primative Buddhists do? run around nearly naked in the woods?
> beat on drums?
Young ones do -- if they don't get caught.
Older ones mostly bitch about how
misunderstood they are.
> > From what I've heard of the Abhidhama
> > there's stuff in there'd make my blood
> > boil.
> >
> > I'm not good at that visulization
> > stuff. Everything comes out all
> > geometric.
>
> well, I kinda need the visual stuff... even though I don't think I've got
> it exactly right yet.
>
> geometric should be perfectly ok, provided that's how your perception works.
> underlying the drawings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in a complicated but
> beautiful geometry as well.
Tests as a kid said I had very good
geometric reasoning, but I can't
visualize a face worth a damn.
(Folding up those boxes in my
head was fun...)
> > > a statement that fits a preconcieved notion) labled "Buddhism".
> > >
> > > Buddhism is neither "passive" nor "nihilistic" nor nearly what some New Age
> > > marketing schemes would have it be.
> > >
> > > Determinations of what it is based on "so and so said", or "I heard" or...
> > > "everyone knows" are unreliable. Determinations based on a view from the
> > > outside, and far away have a different perspective from inside or close up.
> > >
> > > Did I miss anything important?
>
> >
> > Don't think so.
>
> Where's that Toshu? he's generally pretty handy for filling in any gaps I've
> left...
>
> ABSFG: transmitting the Dharma through chocolate.
Getting tired of my current sig?
Sphere.
Lone Fool
}> Yeah. It took me quite a while to
}> get hold of the way emptiness was
}> being used.
Is that a bad thing?
}Yep, & I ran into having to make a collalary between "Shunyata" and "negative
}space"... and going semi crazy in a drawing class. (see I was drawing this
}tree by drawing it's spaces... and then I heard this bell and... well, it's
}not nearly as good a story as the time I sliced my finger at 1 am cutting
}matt board for a photo course...)
See?
karen
<Spher...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
Trin:
>> the third
>> well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
>> more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
Yep, "emptiness" can have certain connotations...
Sphere:
>How about "Openness"? This would make it
>easier for me to bring in the open systems
>from general systems theory.
Oooh, I like this. :)
Trin:
>> I've always felt that "Emptiness" leans too close to depressiveness and is
>> far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
Me too (heh) on both points.
Sphere:
>Although I am thinking of joining an
>Insight Meditation center, I prefer to
>think of myself as a primative Buddhist.
>From what I've heard of the Abhidhama
>there's stuff in there'd make my blood
>boil.
Or put you to sleep. Sorry, but Abhidhamma is dull, dull, dull.
Sphere:
>I'm not good at that visulization
>stuff. Everything comes out all
>geometric.
Been looking at Islamic architecture and a *lot* of geometric patterns
lately (there's a really cool book, "Symmetry in Chaos"... the guy has
a web page too somewhere...). And most of the fractals I've been
doing lately are kaleidoscopic with 7, 8, 12, and 13 orders of
symmetry. Also fun to find out what different orders of symmetry were
supposed to represent to folks, to note how you react to certain color
combinations, patterns...
And try to tell someone what you find so fascinating in seeing and
creating these mandala-like images... forget it.
To think I used to fall asleep every morning in geometry class...
Well, who knew? ;)
>Sphere.
>[There's no top to openness.
> There's no bottom to openness.
> There's only interaction.]
One of the better all-time sigs!
karen
Sphere
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:05:07 -0500, Sphere
> <Spher...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> Trin:
> >> the third
> >> well I'm working on that. but IMHO also "Shunyata" is communicated much
> >> more accurately by "Spaciousness" rather than "Emptiness".
>
> Yep, "emptiness" can have certain connotations...
>
> Sphere:
> >How about "Openness"? This would make it
> >easier for me to bring in the open systems
> >from general systems theory.
>
> Oooh, I like this. :)
Yeah, but I have the feeling it's
more an interpretation than a
translation. Siddhartha talked
at length about empty meditation
halls...
> Trin:
> >> I've always felt that "Emptiness" leans too close to depressiveness and is
> >> far to easy to read as "Nihilism". (which Buddhism is most definitely NOT.)
>
> Me too (heh) on both points.
>
> Sphere:
> >Although I am thinking of joining an
> >Insight Meditation center, I prefer to
> >think of myself as a primative Buddhist.
> >From what I've heard of the Abhidhama
> >there's stuff in there'd make my blood
> >boil.
>
> Or put you to sleep. Sorry, but Abhidhamma is dull, dull, dull.
So that's why I've never hunted
it down and read it myself?
> Sphere:
> >I'm not good at that visulization
> >stuff. Everything comes out all
> >geometric.
>
> Been looking at Islamic architecture and a *lot* of geometric patterns
> lately (there's a really cool book, "Symmetry in Chaos"... the guy has
> a web page too somewhere...). And most of the fractals I've been
> doing lately are kaleidoscopic with 7, 8, 12, and 13 orders of
> symmetry. Also fun to find out what different orders of symmetry were
> supposed to represent to folks, to note how you react to certain color
> combinations, patterns...
>
> And try to tell someone what you find so fascinating in seeing and
> creating these mandala-like images... forget it.
Have any on-line?
> To think I used to fall asleep every morning in geometry class...
> Well, who knew? ;)
>
> >Sphere.
> >[There's no top to openness.
> > There's no bottom to openness.
> > There's only interaction.]
>
> One of the better all-time sigs!
It keeps evolving. The "no top" and "no bottom"
have remained constant, but just about everything
else has changed.
> karen
Sphere
...
> >
> > Oooo. Figure and ground. Great practice.
>
Figure and ground are not two. <grin>
...
> > > geometric should be perfectly ok, provided that's how your perception works.
> > > underlying the drawings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in a complicated but
> > > beautiful geometry as well.
> >
> > Tests as a kid said I had very good
> > geometric reasoning, but I can't
> > visualize a face worth a damn.
> > (Folding up those boxes in my
> > head was fun...)
>
> and some minds can do both at the same time.
:P)
...
> > > ABSFG: transmitting the Dharma through chocolate.
> >
> > Getting tired of my current sig?
>
> Nah, it just struck me as a natural outgrowth... =)
> here have some brownies, but be careful, they just came out of the oven.
Thanks! Don't mind if I do.
Sphere.
--
ABSFG: transmitting the Dharma through chocolate. -- Trin
Lone Fool
Trin the Khad:
}>Sphere's on target there, but =) stand back folks... the Vajrayana and the
}>Therevadan are agreeing here.
}
}
}Jigme>I find there is more to agree than disagree about...but whatever
}happened to "dissatisfactoriness"? Is that not a more faithful translation
}of the term dukka in the context of "all compounded/composition is dukka" ?
Why not "off"?
As background, I long ago read that "duhkha" (main Shambhala Dict.
spelling; "dukkha', Pali) is what one says of a wheel whose axle is
offcenter.
Jigme Dorje
Lone Fool wrote in message ...
Jigme>Yes, that's true, LF. And I suppose that kind of wheel could
ultimately lead to both dissatisfaction and suffering! But I can attest to
the fact that every turn of that wheel is yet another irritating reminder of
the imperfection of my vehicle.
Jigme Dorje
Lone Fool wrote in message ...
>In article <F3zvs...@news2.new-york.net>, "Jigme Dorje"
><stev...@magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>
>Trin the Khad:
>
>}>Sphere's on target there, but =) stand back folks... the Vajrayana and
the
>}>Therevadan are agreeing here.
>}
>}
>}Jigme>I find there is more to agree than disagree about...but whatever
>}happened to "dissatisfactoriness"? Is that not a more faithful translation
>}of the term dukka in the context of "all compounded/composition is dukka"
?
>
>Why not "off"?
>
>As background, I long ago read that "duhkha" (main Shambhala Dict.
>spelling; "dukkha', Pali) is what one says of a wheel whose axle is
>offcenter.
Jigme>
In the basic tenets of Buddhism, (as espoused or elucidated by such texts as
the Majjhima Nikaya, Samkhya-karika, Prasannapada by Candrakirti,
Saundarananda-kavya by Asvaghosha, etc.) all conditioned things are
a)impermanent b)"off" as you say (dukka); and c)"not self"(anatta). Since
these marks are spoken of as elements common to all conditioned things, they
are perhaps properly understood in terms of their interrelatedness, rather
than in isolation from one another. Dukka has often been translated as "ill"
or "dissatisfactoriness."
Dukka can also be understood in terms of its opposite "sukka", which may be
described as "ease", or what is true, unchangeable and real. This would
indicate that we cannot be truly satisfied with anything less than Nirvana,
since even pleasure is the cause of future unhappiness. Conze states quite
provacatively that "The instability and general insecurity of life in an
impermanent world now leads to disquietude and a wish for escape from it."
Another of his memorable quotes is "What sensible person would enjoy having
a boil just because it gives a little pleasure to bathe it occassionally?"
Dukka, then, is commotion, turmoil, unrest or disturbance, the basic human
experience of impermanence.