learning like a musician?

[Brenda Weiss]

I've spent my grown-up life wondering why "school" is so different from learning music or art or ballet or tennis.  I started grad school wanting to make teaching physics like teaching piano.  As a college student, I used to have a 5&6 yo brother and sister run around my house several times first, then come in and sit down for their lesson.  They came in laughing, and we had fun.  For college physics students in a discussion/lab setting, we spent a lot of time sharing ideas, where I was facilitator, not instructor.  Some students get frustrated with "What do you think?", when they're used to an answer they can write down and memorize, but the answer stops their thinking and doesn't help them put information together in their own mind to make sense.  O.K.  I'm getting away from my topic.

I think the difference is that anyone of any age can pick up an instrument and work with an instructor as they progress through the levels from novice toward expert.  There are no time limits, and you aren't required (in most cases) to progress to a certain level by a certain age or within a certain time.  If you want to be professional, it is necessary to reach a level of proficiency by the time you're choosing a profession and thinking about earning a living.  The Alexander String Quartet, out of San Francisco, in responding to questions said they had begun as late as 9 (late for a musician but not prohibitive).  But you can also just learn for the fun of it, and if it's not enjoyable, why do it?  (By the way, thank you Maria for the Seth Godin image of joy vs hassle in learning with the green dot calling to say, "It's worth it!"  My 7-yo novice cellist son said, "That's like cello."  With that simile, he's made remarkable progress.)

**How can learning traditional school subjects be structured to allow time for the individual to grow, learn and make sense?**

That's what I'm playing around with when I have a chance to think, and that's why I'm so glad to be homeschooling and have all of the ideas you share.

Thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Brenda

[Alan Kay]

Hi Brenda,

I think a large part of your intuition is correct about the learning relationships between some of the school subjects and music, art, ballet, tennis, etc.

One of the sticking points has to do with whether a society should make certain subjects mandatory for children and adults.

For example, if you don't think that a society should require all children to learn to read and write (and for their parents to help as much as possible), then subjects like these would be in the same category as other voluntary subjects such as music or tennis.

On the other side of the question, I (personally) do think that all children should be helped to get fluent at reading and writing, science and mathematics, etc. I just don't like the way many schools and teachers go about it.

So a deep question here is how to help children learn who are not drawn to a subject and/or those who may be better set up for other subjects.

And especially how to help children who become motivated but still struggle.

Here, something other than analogies to how arts and sports learning can be adapted might be required.

Best wishes,

Alan

---

From: Brenda Weiss <bjrw...@gmail.com>
To: natur...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 9:09:25 AM
Subject: [NaturalMath] learning like a musician?

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[Rebecca Hanson]

How do you learn music, how do you learn maths?  How little we know.

Here's something which inspired me to rethink the way we see/have the potential to see multiplication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

Happy thanksgiving,

Rebecca

[Brenda Weiss]

Hello Alan,

Thank you for your clarification.

Maybe I should ask:

**How can learning _____ be structured to allow time for the individual to grow, learn and make sense?**

I agree with what you say here ...  

"On the other side of the question, I (personally) do think that all children should be helped to get fluent at reading and writing, science and mathematics, etc. I just don't like the way many schools and teachers go about it."

I'm just thinking about it differently.

For my three children (12, 7, 7), an instrument, art, ballet and a sport are mandatory in the same way reading, writing, playing with math concepts, and talking about science are mandatory.  Some days they don't feel like doing them, but we have a pep talk, and they suck it up and work with me, practice or go to class.  These are all things we have decided they ought to do to help develop their brains and bodies.  Someone else will have a different set of recommendations, and I'd rather keep government mandate out of arts and sports.

My children and I spend a lot of time talking about what options they want for the future, and what they need to do now to be prepared.  With their goals in mind, they trust me to provide a structure that includes necessary skills, and they tell me when something isn't working so we can try a different approach.  (I don't like getting a mix of thumbs-up and thumbs-down, but it's impossible to please everyone, so sometimes my answer is, "Since we're going to be doing x, you'll have a lot more fun if you choose to enjoy it.")

I think it's the pacing that really differs, and individual readiness is so varied.  I wanted my kids to have the tools for reading, so we played with letter shapes and sounds and combinations to see how different sounds could be made over a couple of years.  There was no deadline of when they would learn to read.  Suddenly, about 6 months ago, every book in reach became fair game for my 7 yos.  It was like providing bait: wonderful stories any time if they could read to themselves.

I can't get my kids to stop reading, since that's what they see modeled, and neither video or computer are an option during the day (except for mom -- and that's contentious).  What to do?  Build with Legos, Kapla blocks, play cars, marbles ... or read a book.  I carefully choose reading material so they have to put good, interesting stuff in their brains.  They can choose from hundreds of books on our shelves, plus the rotating library stacks, but they're not going to take in new information if all they read is Calvin & Hobbes for the 50th time, so it's a treat, like candy.

My daughter, 12, is in the process of writing a practice paper for her 5 paragraph writing assignment (from our charter school): "Why you should try to fail the writing assignment", including similes to providing Mozart with a bizarre structure of measures and notes instead of just letting him create.  No, I didn't give her the topic.  She was supposed to write about something she's learned recently.  How that for what you should learn from school?  She's great at putting ideas down on paper, having interviewed and written for our town's online magazine for two years, but did poorly on the assignment last year because her "persuasive essay" didn't follow the prescribed structure.  We learn writing by reading the Wall Street Journal articles, and playing with words and ideas, not by writing 5 paragraph essays with three sentences in each paragraph.  I'm convinced that could kill anyone's interest in writing.

Now I'm trying to figure out how to "bait" math.  Science comes up in conversation all over (I'm a physicist), but math has been my tool, not a creative outlet.  That's where naturalmath and the conversations here have been a light for me.  My boys would be happy to do grade-level workbooks because they're easy, but it won't light a spark.  My daughter does math because she knows she needs to, but it's not a passion.  Being a physicist isn't contagious.  Darn!  But talking about physical concepts seeps into everything.

You asked a great question:

"So a deep question here is how to help children learn who are not drawn to a subject and/or those who may be better set up for other subjects."

Would it help if school were structured to allow individuals to grow into wanting to learn, or at least having time to be creative and make sense in their own heads of new ideas and material?  How about, "I'm in x class for reading, y class for writing and z class for math."  Independent of age, but sensitive to maturity.  That's what grown-ups get to do, and that's what you get to do in the arts.

"And especially how to help children who become motivated but still struggle."

I try to take on new learning activities so my kids see me struggling but carrying on.  I'm open about messing up and fixing my goofs.  I also try to be sensitive.  My daughter prefers me to accompany her on piano while she plays viola rather than playing violin, because she expects me to play piano well, but feels like she should be better than me on strings.  As a teacher, I think it's good to be learning something new, because it makes one more aware of what students are going through emotionally and mentally.  (But I'd hate to see it mandated.)

Don't really know how to make any of this work on a large scale.

I also have to cook, which isn't nearly as fun as thinking about learning.  Guess I'd better not be a chef!

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brenda

[Brenda Weiss]

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Rebecca Hanson <rebecca...@gmail.com> wrote:

How do you learn music, how do you learn maths?  How little we know.

Here's something which inspired me to rethink the way we see/have the potential to see multiplication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

How cool!  We've been playing with major and minor thirds, whole steps and half steps this week.  I love the way Bobby McFerrin dances them.

Brenda

 

Happy thanksgiving,

Likewise.

 

Rebecca

[Maria Droujkova]

I have added this video to the "Primes of beauty" collection of learning multiplicative ideas through the arts: http://naturalmath.wikispaces.com/Primes+of+Beauty

While I was there, I also added a stunningly beautiful system called "Fractal Abacus." Unfortunately, I can't find the author, David Gibson, anywhere - the site in the article is gone. If anyone knows his whereabouts, please let me know.

When my daughter was a toddler, I made her fractal software and pictures based on animals (i.e. starfish for fives, own eyes for twos). I need to dig out these materials, too.

I am (slowly) moving the intrinsic times tables applet to Flickr, where it will be easier for people to add pictures. I hope!

Cheers,
Maria Droujkova

Make math your own, to make your own math.